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A few changes - Bring4th_Austin - 05-31-2017

Hi folks,

Just wanted to give a heads up that there are a few changes around Bring4th. The mod team recently had a discussion about some potential changes for the forums. The options were either a) get a heated pool with a diving board, or b) implement more guidelines and a new forum. I was personally in favor of the swimming pool, but Plenum and Jade fought hard for the more sensible changes, so here's what we have:

New guidelines
AKA "the mods acting on behalf of the deep state to encroach on your rights." You can see the new guidelines implemented in the official Guidelines thread, and also right here:

Quote:11) Pharmaceuticals
We are aware that some seekers who find this community have had experience with psychiatric medications. Such medication has been beneficial in many cases in addressing the needs of those individuals. We ask that members be sensitive to the variant needs of all body complexes and respectful of current diagnoses. Please do not to dissuade other members from their current psychiatric treatments.

The Confederation has expressed the importance of remembering that allopathic healers are, indeed, healers. We encourage an open discussion of all experiences in the context of spirituality, but ask that a certain sensitivity be added when speaking about someone else's experiences with taking psychiatric medication. It is possible to share your personal experience with such treatments without directly discouraging another member from their own treatments.

Quote:17) ID Theft
Revealing your identity is not a required for participation on Bring4th. However, intentionally misrepresenting your identity in order to manipulate or deceive is prohibited and may result in an immediate ban. (Please, do not pretend to be somebody else.)


A new forum
A couple months ago, Aion/Tanner presented us with the idea for a new forum dedicated to healing. His logic and persuasion were so effective that we couldn't say no. Healing is a very central concept in the Law of One as well as in most peoples' lives. There is a lot of opportunity for discussing healing as a concept, modality, and catalyst (both personal and general). It can also serve as a place for people to seek advice and perspective on their own healing journeys. The topic is important and distinct enough to be separate from the existing Health & Diet forum. We liked the idea so much that we decided to make Healing the primary forum and slot Health & Diet as a subforum. There will certainly be some overlap of topics and concepts, but we hope the Healing forum can be a place of more dedicated study and discussion about this important part of the spiritual journey.

It has a unique set of guidelines to hopefully help maintain a positive environment of healing. Please become acquainted with them before participating in discussion. Thank you Aion for the great idea!


And also, in case you haven't noticed, the Harvest forum has recently been changed to Transition to Fourth Density.


And that's about it! If you have any questions or seek clarification, please just let us know.


RE: A few changes - smc - 06-01-2017

Smile synchronicity! Smile

https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=14507&pid=228281#pid228281


RE: A few changes - Agua del Cielo - 06-01-2017

Dear Austin,
although I'm not being active here anymore, I would like to offer some thoughts on the "Healing Subforum".
I like this idea very very much, in fact, the lack of interest in this crucial area displayed by many was the reason to end my participation.
In my experience and opinion, the spiritual path is to a large extent all about healing and for a long time not about much else!

In fact, itruly believe all the abstract discussion on topics,that are extremely out of reach for most, is close to pointless and does not help to progress on the path (except maybe realizing that it's a deadend road sooner or later...), I even tend to believe this is an expression of avoidance and a huge obstacle!

However, I would like offer some aspects, that maybe havent been taken into account:
I would rather place this in "spiritual development". This would be a statement and a constant reminder, that spiritual evolution depends mostly on healing.
It would also constantly question the healing-avoidance which is very common in the beginning of the path, just in a subtle but i think effective way!
Putting it into the "health" category has a danger of people viewing it just as another "minor" aspect,like "do I eat this or that"...if you know what i mean.
Ultimately all health issues are spiritual healing issues, i absolutely agree here. But i would not expect people constantly denying and avoiding emotional healing to even take this into account, no matter how clearly it has been stated in the Ra material!

My second point is about the guidelines, concerning "tough love".
From what I experienced on the forums, denial is a very huge obstacle for many. And I strongly believe, that many times its the only way to be very very clear in pointing this out (instead of covering it in love and light phrases).
This happened very recently in a thread (C_A's thread) and I think, this was EXACTLY what was needed.
In fact, many times i think. people do not really help certain persons by encouraging and reinforcing their "conditions" such as dissociation, schizophrenia, autism for example, instead I feel it ultimately prevents these persons from healing and evolving!
So I would really suggest to maybe elaborate this a little more!

Another thing is the "diagnosis" part.
Honestly, this is not very clear to me. What exactly would you view as a diagnose?
Considering the physical body? Or pointing out deeper mechanisms ofthe psyche that are most likely in play?
A further clarification would be helpful!

Apart from these points, the idea of such a subforum is absolutely great!!
I hope this can help the forum to become the place it was originally intended to be, a place for healing and growth!


Thank you for your service Smile
Much Love

Agua


RE: A few changes - smc - 06-01-2017

Agua, you've just breached the new guideline that Austin is using this thread to notify members about:
Confused
Quote:11) Pharmaceuticals
We are aware that some seekers who find this community have had experience with psychiatric medications. Such medication has been beneficial in many cases in addressing the needs of those individuals. We ask that members be sensitive to the variant needs of all body complexes and respectful of current diagnoses. Please do not to dissuade other members from their current psychiatric treatments.

The Confederation has expressed the importance of remembering that allopathic healers are, indeed, healers. We encourage an open discussion of all experiences in the context of spirituality, but ask that a certain sensitivity be added when speaking about someone else's experiences with taking psychiatric medication. It is possible to share your personal experience with such treatments without directly discouraging another member from their own treatments.

I love alternative medicine, use a lot of it, and have researched it for decades. I've been an Usui Reiki channel since 1994, a meditator, a healthy eater, walking and swimming several km every day - but unfortunately it was not enough.

I do acknowledge spiritual perspectives and counselling/psychology are often a sufficient method of emotional/mental healing - but if you think you can supplement/balance the neuro-transmitters in my brain with conversation and prayer (etc) - you're deluded. Do you think a severed limb can be reattached with positive thinking?

I shared (reluctantly) very specific deeply personal trauma to try to make my point about how I had tried every possible thing I could think of, to heal my clinical depression and PTSD - short of finally taking medically prescribed Sertraline which has saved my life.

I shared such personal trauma on B4 to help illustrate my point - but no-one pm'd me to offer any support - to see if I was okay - and one member even wrote that I'd effectively had a chemical "lobotomy".  

I'm totally over stigma around mental health and that you bring it up again here, especially after Austin's introduction of the new guideline specifically for the issue - is astonishing.

You were one of the people who insulted and patronised me with ignorance and assumptions.

I agree that many medications are over prescribed, incorrect for the person, or have negative side effects.

However I'm able to apply direct personal experience of the subject to INFORM my opinion, whereas many people have no personal experience, but loads of evidence-free opinions.

Quote:many times i think. people do not really help certain persons by encouraging and reinforcing their "conditions" such as dissociation, schizophrenia, autism for example, instead I feel it ultimately prevents these persons from healing and evolving!
So I would really suggest to maybe elaborate this a little more!

Have you a medical degree? Have you extensive experience with mental health conditions? They have biological/biochemical causes which is why -for example- Lithium works for (most) Bipolar Disorder. Have you known or lived with someone with Bipolar? I have. For 3 years we lived together - and if she stopped taking her daily dose she would become completely manic and unsafe to herself and others. Instead she takes it every day, has a full-time job as a primary school teacher; has nearly paid for her house, and has an active social life.

'Ordinary' depression does not require medication. "Clinical depression" usually does. There are criteria for the diagnosis of each.
Please educate yourself.

I do not advocate for you to take anti-depressants.

Do NOT advocate for me to stop what after 20 years of trying every 'natural' alternative - has given my brain chemistry the ability to rebalance itself so that the crushing despair lifted and the suicidal thoughts stopped.

All the counselling and spiritual work still remains to be done - but I'm walking the path with 'legs' that can support me and move me forward.

Perhaps you also tell diabetics to stop their insulin?


RE: A few changes - Bring4th_Austin - 06-01-2017

(06-01-2017, 04:59 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  Dear Austin,
although I'm not being active here anymore, I would like to offer some thoughts on the "Healing Subforum".
I like this idea very very much, in fact, the lack of interest in this crucial area displayed by many was the reason to end my participation.
In my experience and opinion, the spiritual path is to a large extent all about healing and for a long time not about much else!

Thank you for the feedback, and I'm glad you appreciate the idea. I do think you are right about healing, it is a primal aspect of the spiritual path that doesn't seem to get the equivalent attention. Hopefully having a dedicated forum will help garner interest, but I don't know how effective it will be necessarily. It could be "putting the cart before the horse." But having the space is a good and important idea.


Quote:However, I would like offer some aspects, that maybe havent been taken into account:
I would rather place this in "spiritual development". This would be a statement and a constant reminder, that spiritual evolution depends mostly on healing.
It would also constantly question the healing-avoidance which is very common in the beginning of the path, just in a subtle but i think effective way!
Putting it into the "health" category has a danger of people viewing it just as another "minor" aspect,like "do I eat this or that"...if you know what i mean.
Ultimately all health issues are spiritual healing issues, i absolutely agree here. But i would not expect people constantly denying and avoiding emotional healing to even take this into account, no matter how clearly it has been stated in the Ra material!

The question of where to place the forum was probably the primary aspect of discussion when creating it. I appreciate your reasoning, though the perception of where the forum ended up is different. It is not a "subforum," but rather a primary forum. It isn't "under" the health category - in those terms, it became a primary category under which "health" became a subcategory. It is a primary forum on the same level as Spiritual Development.

Does that clarify a mix-up, or did I miss something?


Quote:My second point is about the guidelines, concerning "tough love".
From what I experienced on the forums, denial is a very huge obstacle for many. And I strongly believe, that many times its the only way to be very very clear in pointing this out (instead of covering it in love and light phrases).
This happened very recently in a thread (C_A's thread) and I think, this was EXACTLY what was needed.
In fact, many times i think. people do not really help certain persons by encouraging and reinforcing their "conditions" such as dissociation, schizophrenia, autism for example, instead I feel it ultimately prevents these persons from healing and evolving!
So I would really suggest to maybe elaborate this a little more!

This is a complicated and difficult issue, but for the sake of guidelines it is necessary to simplify. Without agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment of denial and how to approach someone seen to be in such a state, one aspect you did not touch on, which I think is more important, is that some people (especially in a forum environment) take it upon themselves to act as a "tough love" coach without any consent or request from the person they are attempting to help. It can even grow into a greater distortion, with someone simply testing the limits of exactly how harsh and biting they can say something without consideration for how it will affect the person they are speaking to, and then retreating into the defense of, "It's tough love, I was only speaking the truth, I won't sugar coat my words with all of this love and light nonsense." We generally don't moderate this type of approach in the rest of the forum, but we feel strongly that the Healing forum needs unique consideration here.

Communication and healing are subtle and sacred, and it's my personal assessment that those who take it upon themselves to offer this type of "tough love" without establishing that relationship with the receiving party (either implicitly or explicitly) seem to have little consideration for the necessity for sensitivity when relating to a person in need of healing and generally worsen distortion rather than alleviate it.

The guideline is necessarily vague because we cannot account for every situation or request for advice, and each situation will have its unique context. It is a guideline meant to suggest the mentality and approach for the forum and allows us to intervene if things start to stray from intent for the forum.



Quote:Another thing is the "diagnosis" part.
Honestly, this is not very clear to me. What exactly would you view as a diagnose?
Considering the physical body? Or pointing out deeper mechanisms ofthe psyche that are most likely in play?
A further clarification would be helpful!

Basically all of this, both physical diagnosis and spiritual or mental. Keep in mind that many (most, probably) threads created in seeking healing will probably contain a request for such diagnosis - "I'm having this physical ailment - what sort of mental or spiritual catalyst could be at the root?" etc.

Again, we can't account for the complexity of interactions that might happen on the forum.





Regarding the comment about Agua breaching the guideline about pharmaceuticals, this might be an opportunity to clarify. SMC, your previous experience that you speak about would fall under the scope of this guideline. But Agua's post in this thread, unless I am missing something, would not.

Agua is not encouraging anyone specifically to quit their current treatments, and in fact is not speaking about any specific individual or treatment. I actually don't see any reference to medication or psychiatric treatment in the post, only a reference to conditions without any solid opinion on treatment, so I'm a bit confused.

This guideline is not meant to hinder all discussion about psychiatric medications, whether in support or opposition. It is within the bounds of the guideline to simply discuss conditions and their treatments. It is also completely within the bounds of discussion to respond as you did - testimony of personal experience, high skepticism of a member's qualifications for making assessments about conditions and treatments, and a strong argument for why such opinions or assessments might be irresponsible.

I hope this clarifies some.


RE: A few changes - Agua del Cielo - 06-01-2017

Dear Smc,
you completely got me wrong, I was in no way refering to medication!
But I dont want to derail this thread and rather pm you about it.

Dear Austin,
thanks for the clarification, that was helpful!
Concerning "tough love", you have probably read some of my older posts.
I usually advertise compassion, love and understanding for the wounded inner child (which usually is at the root of issues) and I strongly believe this is a crucial part of healing.
However SOMETIMES a person gets stuck so heavily in denial, that only naming this very clearly as denial can help to break free, whereas a "diplomatic" approach is more likely to even reinforce denial.
i hopes this clarifies a bit!


RE: A few changes - Aion - 06-01-2017

Awe, you liked my idea, thanks guys! Looking forward to participating in said forum in the future as I am always on a healing journey of sorts for myself. The quest to know your own wholeness seems to be ongoing, yet maybe there is an end somewhere... time will tell.


RE: A few changes - GentleWanderer - 06-02-2017

This new subforum on healing is a excellent idea i hope it will be fruitful.

On a more mundane level i wish it was possible to change the coloring of the forum. Have you ever thougth about it ?
Having a green design , heart based design or blue design for open communication could help create a nice, warm ambiance suitable to studying and sharing.


RE: A few changes - Agua del Cielo - 06-04-2017

I would suggest, additionaly, to make that forum accessible by logged-in members only.

I understand that the downside of this would be, that many people interested in healing would not be able to access the information shared tjere.

On the other and more important side we should be aware, that ultimately it requires a lot of courahe to share sentitive information when asking for help. There will be a lot of shame, fear, judgement and the likes involved.
I believe nobody would be willing to share this in an open forum!

I participated in forum dedicated to sexual abuse quite some time. They even had several levels of access, which was a very good solution!

Taking into account the fact, that the roots of blockages/distortion/ being-un-heal ultimately always date back to ones very early years, this would indicate that we are actually dealing with children that need a safe protected space to express!


RE: A few changes - sjel - 06-04-2017

(06-04-2017, 07:32 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  I would suggest, additionaly, to make that forum accessible by logged-in members only.

I understand that the downside of this would be, that many people interested in healing would not be able to access the information shared tjere.

On the other and more important side we should be aware, that ultimately it requires a lot of courahe to share sentitive information when asking for help. There will be a lot of shame, fear, judgement and the likes involved.
I believe nobody would be willing to share this in an open forum!

I participated in forum dedicated to sexual abuse quite some time. They even had several levels of access, which was a very good solution!

Taking into account the fact, that the roots of blockages/distortion/ being-un-heal ultimately always date back to ones very early years, this would indicate that we are actually dealing with children that need a safe protected space to express!

I'm actually kind of torn here; part of me thinks that everything should be exposed to everyone in the world, no secrets ever again. A large part of me, in fact. I'm personally working towards that - brutal honesty in all aspects of my personal life. I have a feeling this would lead to an immense relief on my part, because then I don't have to speak through filters all the time.

But obviously I see the merit in having a safe space for discussion of very deep traumatic experiences. So I'm not sure. I'm thinking that if it's not a private forum, members with the more serious topics discussion would not be nearly as willing to share.


RE: A few changes - xise - 06-04-2017

(06-01-2017, 04:59 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  My second point is about the guidelines, concerning "tough love".
From what I experienced on the forums, denial is a very huge obstacle for many. And I strongly believe, that many times its the only way to be very very clear in pointing this out (instead of covering it in love and light phrases).
This happened very recently in a thread (C_A's thread) and I think, this was EXACTLY what was needed.
In fact, many times i think. people do not really help certain persons by encouraging and reinforcing their "conditions" such as dissociation, schizophrenia, autism for example, instead I feel it ultimately prevents these persons from healing and evolving!
So I would really suggest to maybe elaborate this a little more!

After thinking about the concepts of tough love and truth for several years now, I think in general tough love comes more often than not, a projection of the lack of acceptance of the other from the hard truth teller. 

-----

You can be truthful and clear without using hard words about their issues, and people sometimes won't get the message because that is their free will choice to continue to experience the distortion. On the other hand, you can be truthful using hard words, and force people to confront their issue, usually when they are unwilling and truly not ready for it. Plenty of people want to rant and vent about their issue, without really desiring to find the root cause. Yes, even spiritual people. Yes, even actively positively polarizing people. After all, there are countless issues for any one entity to address, yet it is their free will choice to focus on a small subset of them at any time. Often, with hard love, I see frustration empower the harsh truth (I've definitely seen this in myself giving harsh/hard/tough love to others), and the frustration is from the hard lover's lack of acceptance of the distorted person's free will decision to 'vent' about their issue, but not desiring a true interest in confronting or resolving it. By employing hard truth after non-hard clear truth has been employed, you are actively disregarding the other's entity's choice to continue to not confront the matter in front of them. Denial, by the other, and their choice to remain in continued denial is ok and completely acceptable!


Thus, when one looks upon hard love in this manner - 
(1) that often frustration on part of the speaker fuels the hard love (hello red ray/anger),
(2)  that the hard lover speaker often cities how it forces change despite the recipient's obvious reluctance to face the issue when told in non-harsh language (closing the heart to the other's free will decision to rant about an issue instead of a true healing desire),  
(3) and that often the recipient won't change otherwise (hello yellow ray/control issues)
it really seems a non-positive (not necessarily negative though) way to bring about change. The fastest change is not necessary the best or most positive way for a person to change. Some people want to rant and vent and not truly address their issues, and that's ok.

This may not apply to you, but this analysis has definitely applied to me when I've been the giver of hard truth. I can only imagine it's the same for other tellers of hard truths, because I see the exact same pattern in words and communication.


RE: A few changes - Aion - 06-04-2017

(06-02-2017, 01:46 PM)GentleWanderer Wrote:  This new subforum on healing is a excellent idea i hope it will be fruitful.

On a more mundane level i wish it was possible to change the coloring of the forum. Have you ever thougth about it ?
Having a green design , heart based design or blue design for open communication could help create a nice, warm ambiance suitable to studying and sharing.

I think that changing up the colour theme is a great idea. We've had these same 'lower triad' colours all over the site for years. Not that there is anything wrong with those colours, they are pretty, but a change of vibe might actually do this forum some good.


RE: A few changes - Agua del Cielo - 06-05-2017

I think I should clarify what I meant in regards to the "tough love" vs. "sugarcoating" thing:

First of all, every action , every service can come from a place of love or from a place of lack of love, no matter how it looks from the outside!
I believe healing oneself and understanding oneself's "hidden agenda" is a very important part and step in "providing service"!

More often than not we have hidden motives that should be discovered and healed, otherwise the service could be heavily distorted!

I was not talking about harsh words, insulting, judging and the likes!

Lets say, someone is heavily in psychosis for example.
The tricky thing with psychosis is, there is a truth contained in it, a part of the perceiption (of the psychotic person) is quite real and true. This would be the deepest emotion contained in the perceiption.
But, the totality of the explanation of the person in question would be extremely distorted.
If you dont adress this by pointing it out, and insted the person is being "babied", you reinforce the distortion and make it even harder for the person to get out of this!
This should be considered!

In such a case, the "love" given could very well be driven by insecurity, fear, wanting to appear loving and so on!
I think, we should always be open to "investigate" our deeper motivation!

Comcerning free will, i absolutely agree!
This should not be forced on someone.

However, this is a "grey area"!
When a person asks for help, this is an expression of the free will to accept help.
On the other hand, very often you realize, the person does not want to be helped, the free will decision to not grow and heal would also be clearly visible.
Two conflicting free wills, so to say Smile

Which would you respect? which one would you "infringe"?

The one openely expressed? or the one not expressed directly but still clearly perceivable?

At the moment, my solution would be, when i realize a person does not want to be helped, i stay out of the thread, or in real life, just offer my help on an inner level and stop my "outer service".

I think this is more complex, than just putting it in one of two categories!


RE: A few changes - IndigoGeminiWolf - 06-05-2017

I love these commercials. There are many more. It's that doctor from SCRUBS.











RE: A few changes - smc - 06-05-2017

Thank you for your pm Agua. It's a more nuanced view, and I can understand your perspective much better.

To everyone: What I wanted was to be able to express my mental health 'journey' and be acknowledged as capable of knowing when a specific treatment works really positively for me.

No one has to agree that what works for me - is the right thing for them - but you don't get to say that it's wrong for me.

And criticism of psychiatric drugs; but use (and promotion) of recreational drugs is a double standard and illogical.

I won't participate further in this thread - it's too triggering and I've explained my perspective sufficiently.

Wishing everyone well.

Heart


RE: A few changes - GentleWanderer - 06-07-2017

(06-04-2017, 07:32 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  I would suggest, additionaly, to make that forum accessible by logged-in members only.

I understand that the downside of this would be, that many people interested in healing would not be able to access the information shared tjere.

On the other and more important side we should be aware, that ultimately it requires a lot of courahe to share sentitive information when asking for help. There will be a lot of shame, fear, judgement and the likes involved.
I believe nobody would be willing to share this in an open forum!

I participated in forum dedicated to sexual abuse quite some time. They even had several levels of access, which was a very good solution!

Taking into account the fact, that the roots of blockages/distortion/ being-un-heal ultimately always date back to ones very early years, this would indicate that we are actually dealing with children that need a safe protected space to express!

A very good idea


RE: A few changes - xise - 06-07-2017

(06-05-2017, 07:00 AM)SMC Wrote:  And criticism of psychiatric drugs; but use (and promotion) of recreational drugs is a double standard and illogical.

I haven't often seen a promotion of recreational drugs by anti-pharma proponents, but I agree there are logical issues with those who promote the view as you describe.

I have seen a promotion of non-processed, plant-based herbs - for healing and for spiritual seeking - over using synthesized pharma drugs. One may not agree with such promotion, but it's based on a pretty clear logical line about using natural, non-processed herbs for healing/seeking purposes instead of artificial chemicals. There are certainly counterarguments to such a view, but I'm not convinced that a double standard/ it's illogical criticism is one of them.


RE: A few changes - smc - 06-08-2017

(06-07-2017, 12:44 PM)xise Wrote:  
(06-05-2017, 07:00 AM)SMC Wrote:  And criticism of psychiatric drugs; but use (and promotion) of recreational drugs is a double standard and illogical.

I haven't often seen a promotion of recreational drugs by anti-pharma proponents, but I agree there are logical issues with those who promote the view as you describe.

I have seen a promotion of non-processed, plant-based herbs - for healing and for spiritual seeking - over using synthesized pharma drugs. One may not agree with such promotion, but it's based on a pretty clear logical line about using natural, non-processed herbs for healing/seeking purposes instead of artificial chemicals. There are certainly counterarguments to such a view, but I'm not convinced that a double standard/ it's illogical criticism is one of them.

There's been advocacy on B4 for synthetic Methamphetamine; LSD; Ayahuasca; etc - yet scoffing at Antidepressants.

Both here (forums) and elsewhere, there's much criticism of psychiatric drugs but description of use (and promotion) of recreational drugs.

IRL I've been told off for swimming in chlorinated water - by a Herbalist who regularly takes MDMA*

*Formula: C11H15NO2
Biological half-life: ®-MDMA: 5.8 ± 2.2 hours; (S)-MDMA: 3.6 ± 0.9 hours
Onset of action: 30–45 minutes (by mouth)
Duration of action: 4–6 hours
Metabolism: Liver, CYP450 extensively involved, including CYP2D6
Metabolites: MDA, HMMA, HMA, DHA, MDP2P, MDOH

Exclamation lol

I don't have the time to go through b4 forums and quote all the comments to show this to you, but (ironically) your own comment shows a (milder) example of this anyway.

Your reply is also promoting one over/or instead of the other - and this is part of my point.

That I've had many comments similar (and more harshly/emphatically put) on B4 and else where, is what I take issue with.

The 'natural products' belief is so default/ingrained that you don't see that you're doing it even now.

The whole "artificial chemicals" idea is fraught with illogic - for example: Valium is manufactured from Valerianic acid which is derived from the herbal plant Valerian.
I can't drink enough Valerian tea to lose my claustrophobic terror of travelling in a small aeroplane - so if a larger plane isn't available - I take half a Valium.

Everything is chemistry.

Yes, some 'things' are closer to the state they would be found in 'nature' - but do you know anyone who chews on sugar cane vs highly refined - heavily processed white sugar - which is in so much of processed food available? When did it go from being natural to unnatural? Ther's no denying it's toxic - just as magic mushrooms are technically toxic - ie: we hallucinate because we've been mildly 'poisoned'. (I once hallucinated from a high temperature/fever when I contracted glandular fever.)

You can say: "based on a pretty clear logical line about using natural, non-processed herbs for healing/seeking purposes instead of artificial chemicals"
- but when you do this you present a belief system that is just as biased as people who say herbs (etc) are useless;

and it directly undermines my lived experience with successful results from both schools of medicine/healing.

For example - I love comfrey (the herb) and as an ointment it's very effective - BUT you must be very careful using comfrey as internally it can be very toxic to the liver.

If I have a headache I have a bath in lavender oil but if that, or meditation, chamomile tea, Reiki, or a heat or cold pack doesn't help - I take 1-2 paracetamol.

The whole natural/artificial thing - it's an oversimplification.

People who support only "natural" or only "conservative" medicines BOTH irritate me - because they're black and white thinkers and their opinionatedness hurts people who need (or have found) help.

My defensiveness on B4 about this is because I've experienced times in my life of the most awful psychological, psychic and physical pain; and on some occasions I needed conventional medicine to help me.

People just don't get to comment to say what I did/do is wrong without me asserting that those comments are UNWELCOME, inaccurate, insensitive and ignorant.

FYI: I also defend my choices with Doctors who criticise herbs/Reiki/prayer etc; and to anyone who criticises what has worked for me in either alternative or conventional medicine.

NUFF SAID.


RE: A few changes - Diana - 06-08-2017

(06-08-2017, 05:13 AM)SMC Wrote:  The whole natural/artificial thing - it's an oversimplification.

People who support only "natural" or only "conservative" medicines BOTH irritate me - because they're black and white thinkers and their opinionatedness hurts people who need (or have found) help.

Yes, following only one line of thinking is rigid and blocks information and understanding. As far as people being hurt by rigid thinking—yes that happens, but I would add that both the reaction and the action are involved.

I agree with you about chemistry. However, it must be added that pharmaceuticals are patented. In order to patent a substance, it must be unique. So, although many drugs are derived from plants, (and the efficacy is the concentration which you have outlined), they must add something to the chemical structure in order to patent the drug. This is where unhealthy aspects are created.

As far as mind-altering substances, I do agree that there seems to be a bias here (I speak from a a neutral point of view). I think your approach is good—to simply be nonjudgmental toward it all. This does not preclude, however, the gigantic greed machine and propagandized pharmaceutical industry. So, thinking for one's self, outside the box (media/advertising), is the best course of action in my opinion. 

There is a (difficult) fine line between enlightening or educating, and endeavoring to control.


RE: A few changes - Agua del Cielo - 06-08-2017

I think its perfectly okay to prefer natural stuff, or prefer synthetic stuff, or prefer a mixture and i also think its perfectly okay to state this clearly!
Whatever works for you at a given point in time, fine!
I think it should just be left up to the specific person to choose her/his prefered route.

We should also keep in mind, that our understanding usually is quite limited, so being open to expand one's view and being open for needs that might change over time is also a good idea.

Not sure if the "bias" Diana spoke of is a bias for psychedelics, if so, the bias would be for very obvious reasons.
We all miss "home" and if theres something that at least temporarily brings you closer, this is understandably quite seductive.


RE: A few changes - Diana - 06-08-2017

(06-08-2017, 01:11 PM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  Not sure if the "bias" Diana spoke of is a bias for psychedelics, if so, the bias would be for very obvious reasons.
We all miss "home" and if theres something that at least temporarily brings you closer, this is understandably quite seductive.

Yes, that's what I meant. And it is understandable. However, it may be taken into consideration the toll on the body (including the mind and energy field).


RE: A few changes - isis - 06-09-2017

[Image: hulk-hogan-real-american.jpg]


RE: A few changes - Agua del Cielo - 06-09-2017

(06-08-2017, 04:13 PM)Diana Wrote:  Yes, that's what I meant. And it is understandable. However, it may be taken into consideration the toll on the body (including the mind and energy field).

Yes, true, but I doubt someone 20 years old an hungry for "connectio" will ever consider this at all Wink
No matter what the downsides are.

Apart from that, I dont think one can compare entheogenes with psychiatric medication in any way.
Yes. both are substances that cause a temporary change in you, but thats about all they have in common.

Both can help you on your path and very often do, but also both can be abused and often are, and so can become an obstacle.


RE: A few changes - sjel - 06-09-2017

(06-09-2017, 02:52 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  Yes, true, but I doubt someone 20 years old an hungry for "connectio" will ever consider this at all Wink
No matter what the downsides are.

Ageism!


RE: A few changes - Diana - 06-09-2017

(06-09-2017, 08:04 AM)sjel Wrote:  
(06-09-2017, 02:52 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  Yes, true, but I doubt someone 20 years old an hungry for "connectio" will ever consider this at all Wink
No matter what the downsides are.

Ageism!

I don't think Agua means to be condescending. Intention matters. And age doesn't necessarily set the stage for understanding or maturity. And yet, there is a reason indigenous tribes have "elders," "wise women." etc. There is something to be said for experience in this realm, and the accumulation of actions/consequences. And as the physical body ages, one becomes more aware of its workings (or what isn't working). I don't mean to be too simplistic. When I was 20, I was concerned with health and proper food even then, but my body was new and I could have ingested anything and not felt the consequences. So the criteria are two-fold: experience in this life which hopefully endows one with garnered wisdoms pertaining to this existence, and the aging of the body which brings to the conscious mind the consequences of how one treats it.


RE: A few changes - xise - 06-09-2017

Re: Artificial/Natural Substances Rules.

Anytime you use a rule, without thinking, it's a bad thing. I encourage people to have guidelines, but investigate each and every case.

I'd say there are three key ingredients to any sort of investigation:
1. Personal experience (and experience of loved ones whose judgment and evaluation you trust). I would say most people use some form of this.

2. Google research. Yes, you're going to make some mistakes and come to the wrong conclusion at first. Yes, if you just do this a few times a year, or only study a few subjects, this is almost worthless. But if you get in the habit of investigating a variety of subjects using a variety of sources online - web pages, social media, news articles, forum posts, pdfs online - you'll become more informed that the vast majority of new media articles. Some people do this, but very few people do this regularly enough to get actually good it. It takes hours and hours to research even one topic.

3. Incentive/Systems-thinking Analysis. This is probably the most important step, yet very few people do this. You analyze the incentives involved in each source and viewpoint. You can only really do this after you've done your research, and a big incentive to analyze is money, so you need to understand the flow of money through the system. You start to realize how much money results from one worldview, and how much lack of money results from another worldview, and you can almost see the bias of various sources jump right out at you. They say follow the money to understand politics, but really, following the money is the secret to understanding almost any viewpoint in our society (once you also incorporate deep-seated cultural/societal beliefs).


RE: A few changes - smc - 06-13-2017

http://www.newsweek.com/brain-structure-hidden-architecture-multiverse-dimensions-how-brain-works-624300

Quote:Scientists studying the brain have discovered that the organ operates on up to 11 different dimensions, creating multiverse-like structures that are “a world we had never imagined.”

By using an advanced mathematical system, researchers were able to uncover architectural structures that appears when the brain has to process information, before they disintegrate into nothing.

Their findings, published in the journal Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience, reveals the hugely complicated processes involved in the creation of neural structures, potentially helping explain why the brain is so difficult to understand and tying together its structure with its function.

Quote:In the latest study, researchers honed in on the neural network structures within the brain using algebraic topology—a system used to describe networks with constantly changing spaces and structures. This is the first time this branch of math has been applied to neuroscience.

"Algebraic topology is like a telescope and microscope at the same time. It can zoom into networks to find hidden structures—the trees in the forest—and see the empty spaces—the clearings—all at the same time," study author Kathryn Hess said in a statement.

In the study, researchers carried out multiple tests on virtual brain tissue to find brain structures that would never appear just by chance. They then carried out the same experiments on real brain tissue to confirm their virtual findings.

They discovered that when they presented the virtual tissue with stimulus, groups of neurons form a clique. Each neuron connects to every other neuron in a very specific way to produce a precise geometric object. The more neurons in a clique, the higher the dimensions.
Quote:In some cases, researchers discovered cliques with up to 11 different dimensions.

The structures assembled formed enclosures for high-dimensional holes that the team have dubbed cavities. Once the brain has processed the information, the clique and cavity disappears.

"The appearance of high-dimensional cavities when the brain is processing information means that the neurons in the network react to stimuli in an extremely organized manner," said one of the researchers, Ran Levi.

"It is as if the brain reacts to a stimulus by building then razing a tower of multi-dimensional blocks, starting with rods (1D), then planks (2D), then cubes (3D), and then more complex geometries with 4D, 5D, etc. The progression of activity through the brain resembles a multi-dimensional sandcastle that materializes out of the sand and then disintegrates," he said.

Henry Markram, director of Blue Brain Project, said the findings could help explain why the brain is so hard to understand. "The mathematics usually applied to study networks cannot detect the high-dimensional structures and spaces that we now see clearly,” he said.

"We found a world that we had never imagined. There are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to eleven dimensions."

The findings indicate the brain processes stimuli by creating these complex cliques and cavities, so the next step will be to find out whether or not our ability to perform complicated tasks requires the creation of these multi-dimensional structures.

In an email interview with Newsweek , Hess says the discovery brings us closer to understanding “one of the fundamental mysteries of neuroscience: the link between the structure of the brain and how it processes information.”

By using algebraic topology, she says, the team was able to discover “the highly organized structure hidden in the seemingly chaotic firing patterns of neurons, a structure which was invisible until we looked through this particular mathematical filter.”

Hess says the findings suggest that when we examine brain activity with low-dimensional representations, we only get a shadow of the real activity taking place. This means we can see some information, but not the full picture. “So, in a sense our discoveries may explain why it has been so hard to understand the relation between brain structure and function,” she explains.

“The stereotypical response pattern that we discovered indicates that the circuit always responds to stimuli by constructing a sequence of geometrical representations starting in low dimensions and adding progressively higher dimensions, until the build-up suddenly stops and then collapses: a mathematical signature for reactions to stimuli.

“In future work we intend to study the role of plasticity—the strengthening and weakening of connections in response to stimuli—with the tools of algebraic topology. Plasticity is fundamental to the mysterious process of learning, and we hope that we will be able to provide new insight into this phenomenon,” she added.



RE: A few changes - rva_jeremy - 06-14-2017

(06-04-2017, 04:47 PM)xise Wrote:  You can be truthful and clear without using hard words about their issues, and people sometimes won't get the message because that is their free will choice to continue to experience the distortion. On the other hand, you can be truthful using hard words, and force people to confront their issue, usually when they are unwilling and truly not ready for it.

Totally agree. This reflects a few things I've been thinking about with respect to service in general and mirroring in particular.

First, as STO folks we think a lot about our own decisions, actions, and thoughts and how they relate to service. But a message I've seen popping up in Confederation channeling a bit is the idea that it is the unique, various, sometimes unpredictable ways in which our issues blend with each other that contributes to the intensity of experience here. This isn't just a first person narrative, in other words -- it's also a third person narrative, where all of our hang-ups and issues and talents and rough spots mix and match and combine into everybody else's and create this rich system of energies and potentials that can't simply be about "me". We think about our own, personal role a lot, and whether we're measuring up to some personal or societal standard on an individual basis, because that's the breadth of perspective readily available. But we should perhaps expect that, for example, what causes harshness from us might blend with another to cause softness in them, or vice versa. I suspect this tapestry is a very important function of the veiling process, and if we only see it from our point of view a lot of the randomness and complexity of how evolution proceeds might not be appreciated. We just don't know, we lack the overview, and sometimes perhaps the blend of our dark sides can create opportunities for seeing the light, too. So it's not solely about "should I use hard words or not", perhaps.

Second is something I've gotten from reading about Bhuddism, which is three simple tests (or rules) for speech: ask yourself (1) is it true, (2) is it necessary, and (3) is it kind? I prefer "tests" rather than "rules" because I think there are times when we can benefit from our own regretful choices of expression if we can simply sort of test where we went wrong and reflect on why we did. For instance, I think I often say things that are simply unnecessary, and learning to express oneself with concision and discrimination is one of those finer points that lies beyond simply being loving and affirming.

Third, everybody is harsh sometimes, but one of the things I've really come to appreciate (also from Bhuddism and Pema Chödrön in particular) is the degree to which harshness towards others reflects one's harshness towards oneself. This insight has the potential to release a great deal of compassion, where one sees an expression of hostility or anger as part of a broader struggle a person is going through and not simply a reflection on the one so addressed. It also has afforded me new tools for dealing with my own anger and frustration, where instead of either lashing out or repressing the feelings I simply acknowledge them and kind of soothe myself, telling myself that everything's ok and that it's ok to feel the way I do. Just a little bit of kindness towards yourself can yield tremendous increases in kindness towards others. It's kind of a "Stewart Smalley" thing to do, but part of what makes that skit funny is the formulaic, almost self-delusional way he does it, as if he really doesn't believe the things he's affirming. Whereas if you can just give your inner self a little hug and say, "yeah, that was a crappy situation, and it's totally ok to feel that way about it" I have been just floored at what that can do. We really are most brutal upon ourselves, I think.

(06-04-2017, 04:47 PM)xise Wrote:  Plenty of people want to rant and vent about their issue, without really desiring to find the root cause. Yes, even spiritual people. Yes, even actively positively polarizing people. After all, there are countless issues for any one entity to address, yet it is their free will choice to focus on a small subset of them at any time.

Definitely. I think everybody gets stuck in looking through their lives and experiences through certain lenses. Until we're appreciating the unique moment we're kind of rehashing past decisions, feelings, and thoughts. It's as if much of our sort of meditative reflection happens in real life, where we unconsciously reflect on our lives "out loud" through the visceral reenactment of patterns of behavior. Indeed, I suspect this is why meditation is so useful: it allows us to "rant" to ourselves in a space that is safe enough to recognize the rant, the "thinking", as such and deal with it for what it is. People who need to rant and vent, I've found, are difficult to listen to not simply because of the repetitive and self-centeredness nature of their expression but because they're giving you a little window into a frustration that you probably recognize all too well, a frustration that we don't really enjoy looking at within ourselves. You seem to see it the same way, xise, when you say:

(06-04-2017, 04:47 PM)xise Wrote:  Often, with hard love, I see frustration empower the harsh truth (I've definitely seen this in myself giving harsh/hard/tough love to others), and the frustration is from the hard lover's lack of acceptance of the distorted person's free will decision to 'vent' about their issue, but not desiring a true interest in confronting or resolving it. By employing hard truth after non-hard clear truth has been employed, you are actively disregarding the other's entity's choice to continue to not confront the matter in front of them. Denial, by the other, and their choice to remain in continued denial is ok and completely acceptable!

Indeed! It's just that it's a lot harder to ignore in another than in ourselves. Smile


RE: A few changes - Agua del Cielo - 06-14-2017

I think i need to clarify something:

I wasnt speaking about using "harsh" words necessarily.
I was talking about honestly speaking ones truth, instead of "babying" someone."


I think there are quite some vases, where people do not speak their truth openly, necause they are afraid, this might hurt someone.
Then, in the "sugarcoating" vases i was refering to, the trith is witjheld and replaced by some "kimd" words.
and i dont think this help!

I agree about respecting the free will choice to deny, absolutely.
But then it would be more truthful and honest to write nothing at all!

I hope this clarifies a littel