Zoomed out a bit too far

[Parsons]

I was practicing in my head how I would explain my beliefs to someone who knows nothing about them (as I will sometimes do). I was focusing on a visualization of when infinity became intelligent / self aware.

The visualization: you wake up in a room all alone. You look around and all you see is featureless, dim grey. You can't even see the corners of the room or make out features to distinguish anything from anything else. You don't know who you are and don't remember any other person. You start walking for hours, days, weeks and you never find anyone or anything in this grey-void. You look down at your hands and you have none. No feet; no body. You do not hunger or thirst. You do not breath and you feel no heartbeat. You do not sleep nor understand the concept. You remember that you are the only being in existence. Worse, you know you are the only being that has ever existed or will ever exist. There is no other matter or consciousness or anything else outside yourself, so no possibility of others. You are it. All alone. So unbelievably alone.

That visualization has brought me horror in the past, but I have come to grips with it. That infinite intelligence created of itself finity, free will, time and space, all of us, etc etc, so it can experience something. So it can experience Itself.

The new horror I experienced was: how did that infinity come to exist? It's really the same question no matter what faith you are. Maybe you believe in the universe described in the Ra Material and other similar materials. Maybe you believe in one of the major religions. Maybe you're an atheist. It all boils down to: what came before? 

If you accept the placeholder term "Bing Bang" for the beginning of the universe (or the Original Thought or God creating the universe or whatever you want to label it): What came before the Big Bang? If there are a series of Big Bangs, when did the first one occur? How did the first one occur? It had to pop out of nothingness or the matter / energy always existed. Either way you look at it, that is INFINITY (either it popped out infinite nothingness or the matter itself is infinite). It HAD to have come from infinity; there is literally no other explanation. If you have matter and the universe and the Big Bang and white bearded gods creating the world in 7 days (or whatever the hell you want to believe); that had to have popped out of nothingness. "Nothingness" IS infinity. It's not possible for anything to proceed infinity because "something" is finite and infinity cannot come from finity. All roads lead from (and to) infinity. Most atheists / materialists, religious folk, and even generic "spiritualists" (for lack of a better term) don't seem to feel comfortable contemplating "what came before" when you reach a certain point. They either say "well I don't know" or "that's not for me to say" or "God only knows" or "I'm not a scientists; I don't know anything about the Big Bang" or they just become visibly uncomfortable and change the subject.

Is this the "Great Mystery"? I understand Who we are and what we are doing here and how all this was created (from that Infinity; of that Infinity). But when I try to contemplate what came before that, how that Infinity came about... I become deeply disturbed. It's like my consciousness was a blind person safely and happily bumbling about in the dark, never encountering single object, then all the sudden I run smack into this wall.

Has anyone here else tried to contemplate existence this far before?

[Mahakali]

You're thinking too much with your brain, and not enough with your heart.

Your heart understands infinity a lot better than your brain does, I've found.

Infinity isn't logical. But it's one side of the coin, the other being finite existence. Space/time is closer to finite existence, associated with logic, though it's not free of infinity, and time/space is closer to infinity, associated with associative faculties, but it's not free of finite existence.

The answers that you (and all of us here) are looking for are found in time/space and the higher dimensions it connects to.

Any perception of infinity must necessarily include finite existence, so it's not really such a big deal that we're able to perceive it as limited beings. Being completely unlimited would be about the same as being completely and totally dead - there has to be a difference between space/time and time/space in order for experience to occur.

[Verum Occultum]

Yes. I have also contemplated whether the Creator actually 'knows' anything. Does the Creator understand what it is? Or is it just witnessing itself and trying its very best to know what it is? The rules of the game are created, but before the rules there was utter ignorance; perhaps not ignorance about the nature, but about the possibilities of the nature that would expand upon that nature. I remember reading a Q'uote where they said that the intent of the Creative Principle is still mysterious to them. We are fortunate that the base of the Creator is infinite love. Otherwise existence would be immensely terrifying.

[Mahakali]

Yes. I have also contemplated whether the Creator actually 'knows' anything. Does the Creator understand what it is? Or is it just witnessing itself and trying its very best to know what it is? The rules of the game are created, but before the rules there was utter ignorance; perhaps not ignorance about the nature, but about the possibilities of the nature that would expand upon that nature. I remember reading a Q'uote where they said that the intent of the Creative Principle is still mysterious to them. We are fortunate that the base of the Creator is infinite love. Otherwise existence would be immensely terrifying.

It certainly can be.

I agree that the rules of the game ARE created, not were. I think the possibilities are still infinite and expanding.

The more I meditate on how "every man and woman is a star", the more I understand about spiritual development and the nature of reality.

[Nau7ik]

This is the Great Mystery. It's truly GREAT. We can think all we want, but the user above said it perfectly: our hearts understand infinity far better than our brains.

I found your image interesting. I have a rather simple one myself: imagine a sea of infinity, smooth and calm, and then imagine a wave or ripple coming across the surface for a moment. That one wave is a Creation, it arises and returns back to infinity.

[Minyatur]

The way I came to understand this is that even in what is closest to nothingness, we still are, and as such there is an eternal and infinite observation of being "nothing". No form, no conception of self, no conception of the possibility of others, no conception of love, no conception of light, etc. This timeless and spaceless observation of nothing coalesces into an eternal desire of something, because even in the absence of any quality we can attribute to infinity, beingness remains. This infinite and eternal desire is the first distortion which finds infinite focuses within what could've been thought as empty but which never was truly empty. Will energizes/manifests what was seemingly void.

These are further thoughts I had about this, I think there is the possibility that the same many-ness we experience within manifested infinity also exists within un-manifested infinity and that the first distortion is the unified desire of this many-ness. This is why we are "born" in different time and space, each of our free will is a fragment of the first distortion and reflect a unique facet of the Great Will. Unified we are Intelligent Infinity but each of us is a unique desire of a particular fractal of this intelligence. Much like how our Logos becomes the focus of Love and creates this Octave, in another time and space (another creation) each of us probably are the Logos focused upon the original thought which is closest to the essence that is the core of our individuality in every Octaves of experience you will move through.

tl;dr : the first distortion is a unified desire with infinite facets born from an eternal obervation of an absence/lack of these facets. With/without are ever contained within the Source in a unified manner as both states ever are contained in the other.

[Parsons]

I appreciate the responses.

I am talking about before time, space, densities, dimensions, or even the Logos existed.

I was just having trouble wrapping my brain around the concept that infinity has always existed. It is hard for me to phathom how that infinity came about.

The bedrock of it all is infinity. The question essentially was: what came before infinity? I think I answered my own question at one point: nothing can precede infinity because of the nature of infinity.

[Patrick]

"Before" infinity became aware, all possibilities existed already.  Thus the possibility of such a thing as consciousness existed.  Thus infinity became aware.

But since there is no "before", we might as well say that infinity was always conscious and has always been experiencing itself and forever will.

From what Ra said, it seems the great mystery will always remain a mystery.  Maybe because infinity will always be more than what infinity is aware of itself.  And thus the exploration is forever.

We can imagine what something that goes on forever might be like, but we can't seem to be able to imagine what it's like for something to have never started and has always been.
 

[Dog Star]

To gain awareness Infinity simply focused, nothing external.

The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious

[anagogy]

The bedrock of it all is infinity. The question essentially was: what came before infinity? I think I answered my own question at one point: nothing can precede infinity because of the nature of infinity.

Exactly. You've got it.

Infinity is all that has ever been. And in my opinion, it is synonymous with consciousness, because if you really search your heart, you will see in perfect clarity, that consciousness is the heart of existence. Existence = consciousness. Consciousness validates, by its very nature, the fact that YOU ARE. I think therefore I am.

Without consciousness, there is no existence. If a tree falls in the forest and there is no consciousness there to witness it, it *didn't exist in the first place*. But that never happens, because consciousness, or infinity, inhabits all probabilities and will for all eternity. There never was a situation where there was a state of nothingness, which then, by some inexplicable process, boom, magically produced somethingness. As Ra said, "The dissolution into nothingness is the dissolution into unity, for there is no nothingness."

There has only ever been infinite somethingness. But to people enmired in duality I usually start them off with the thought: "because nothingness infinitely does NOT exist, everythingness infinitely DOES exist." However, while close to being the reality, that statement is slightly distorted. The idea of nothingness doesn't even enter into the reality of it. Actually all ideas are distortions relative to unity. The reality is: there is a block of infinite potentiality that is also, simultaneously, actuality (in infinity they are one and the same). What we call "creation" is simply the illusory distancing of perception between the idea of "potential" and the idea of "actual". Or potential and kinetic. In other-words, distortion.

It is analogous to a block of wood. The block of wood contains all the potential forms that could be carved out of that block of wood. From the undistorted vantage point, the infinite forms within the block of wood are so perfectly fused that they are not seen in their separation. Again, I say, they are seen, but NOT in their separation. So everything we see is real, in that sense, but we see it *distorted* from how it really is as the perfectly fused unity of infinite unbroken awareness, or Beingness.

The forms are like ice-cubes drifting underneath the sea. Can you distinguish them from the sea? The sea can't, but the ice cube does. Until it melts of course and then it can't either. Similarly, as long as we identify as as these little selves, or perspectives, within this massive universe, that is the distortion we will experience. When identity is transcended, so are the limitations of that identity, and then you embody all identities so to speak, but you don't see them in their separation.

So how does the 'distancing' or 'distortion' from unity occur? By raw consciousness choosing, or willing, to imagine limitations on its own unbounded essence. When Ra said "infinity became aware" it was infinity becoming aware, and discerning the possibility for something other than undistorted unity. It allowed its raw, eternal, and real perception of undistorted infinity to drift into the realm of the potential forms embedded in that metaphorical block of wood. In otherwords, we are the formless imagining what the perspective of a form would be like.

All of what we perceive and interpret as negativity is simply separation. In unity there is no separation. So it is absolutely positive in the sense of there being no disharmony, and it feels no lack in any regard. It is pure peace, love, joy, bliss, creativity, and all real qualities. Their negative antithesis' don't actually exist as opposities, they are just distortions of those undistorted natural qualities inherent in unity. In otherwords, fear and hate are just distorted love. Everything is just distorted love. It is like how cold is not the opposite of warm, it is simply the reduction of heat. Distortion (falsity) is not the opposite of undistortion (truth), it is simply the reduction of it.  

[Aion]

Infinity exists 'beneath' time and space. It did not 'come' from anywhere and it is not 'going' anywhere, it just is.

[Minyatur]

All of what we perceive and interpret as negativity is simply separation. In unity there is no separation. So it is absolutely positive in the sense of there being no disharmony, and it feels no lack in any regard. It is pure peace, love, joy, bliss, creativity, and all real qualities. Their negative antithesis' don't actually exist as opposities, they are just distortions of those undistorted natural qualities inherent in unity. In otherwords, fear and hate are just distorted love. Everything is just distorted love. It is like how cold is not the opposite of warm, it is simply the reduction of heat. Distortion (falsity) is not the opposite of undistortion (truth), it is simply the reduction of it.  

I'm not sure why you think that unity contains only pure peace, love joy, bliss, creativity and all "real" qualities. Unity does contain fear and hate as further distorted states of the distortion of Love. If you wanted to make unity as without any form of distortion (which you call falsities), then you would not be able to define it as Love either since Love of itself is also a distortion (falsity).

I think if you try to make unity as without something, then you are trying to view unity under a non-united scope. Unity is that which contains all things.

Edit : Maybe you do mean that fear on a higher level would be interpreted as love while being experienced as fear on a lower level, all contained within unity.

[Minyatur]

What came before the Big Bang?

Well first of all, the Big Bang is a misconception, there is nothing outside yourself and you are truly the center of it all. If your awareness breaks free from the illusion of the time and space that contain an experience, then the center you are is much alike a singularity which contains this time and space bubble idea of us talking in this now, just as infinite other things.

[anagogy]

Edit : Maybe you do mean that fear on a higher level would be interpreted as love while being experienced as fear on a lower level, all contained within unity.

This is what I mean, a given thing can only be experienced as "negative" in distortion. You experience all things in unity, but even fear is love, it is only called "fear" when experienced in distortion.

[Minyatur]

Edit : Maybe you do mean that fear on a higher level would be interpreted as love while being experienced as fear on a lower level, all contained within unity.

This is what I mean, a given thing can only be experienced as "negative" in distortion. You experience all things in unity, but even fear is love, it is only called "fear" when experienced in distortion.

It had come to me I had misinterpreted your words.

I tend to not see Love as central to infinity other than as one focus also. This Octave works upon a "Law of the All" (kinda) as a primary focus and which can be incorporated within other Octaves focusing upon different Laws. Will always being the foundation of any of them (and also containing them), infinitely exploring it's desire of each Law. So say there is an Octave of Many, which explores the infinite desire of being many as it's central focus, then this allows other Logos to incorporate many-ness within themselves as a sub-distortion of their main focus. Same would apply with time, space, movement, etc. In this idea, there would be creations that activate or not Love within their experience (which is at least always contained in potential) through using the intelligent energy that is made available to them through our focus upon it. (our focus is their focus since all is One)

I think this work in an interconnected fashion between Octaves, none ever existing without the others, none ever being so much of itself without the others. Each Law is probably fully contained within the others in a manifested/un-manifested fashion which allows this interconnection. So in this creation, everything is manifested through Love.

[anagogy]

It had come to me I had misinterpreted your words.

I tend to not see Love as central to infinity other than as one focus also. This Octave works upon a "Law of the All" (kinda) as a primary focus and which can be incorporated within other Octaves focusing upon different Laws. Will always being the foundation of any of them (and also containing them), infinitely exploring it's desire of each Law. So say there is an Octave of Many, which explores the infinite desire of being many as it's central focus, then this allows other Logos to incorporate many-ness within themselves as a sub-distortion of their main focus. Same would apply with time, space, movement, etc. In this idea, there would be creations that activate or not Love within their experience (which is at least always contained in potential) through using the intelligent energy that is made available to them through our focus upon it. (our focus is their focus since all is One)

I think this work in an interconnected fashion between Octaves, none ever existing without the others, none ever being so much of itself without the others. Each Law is probably fully contained within the others in a manifested/un-manifested fashion which allows this interconnection. So in this creation, everything is manifested through Love.

I don't see love as synonymous with unity, just really really close. As close as we can humanly approximate. It's like the sun and its rays. The rays are not the sun, but you get a sense of its nature from them because they aren't too far distorted from its reality to bridge the imagination.

To me, the "octave density" is simply infinity itself, which is interestingly, and accurately, unconsciously reflected by our cultural choice for the infinity symbol itself which is essentially an "8" lying on its side.

Each density is contained by its higher from my point of view. 1st is contained by 2nd, which is contained by 3rd, which is contained by 4th and so on. So the broadest "orbit of infinty" is represented by the octave density. Within that infinitely encompassing octave density are multiple violet ray "islands", and these are the octave islands. Each one is its own exploration of the rays. The 8th level is not focused at all from my perspective. Rather, it is completely unfocused as unpotentiated intelligent infinity (it is the plenum of infinity in other-words). It is basically beingness absorbed in beingness. The Absolute. The violet ray explorations, which contain all the rays down to red, are simply the progressive narrowing focus of infinity to a specific possibility of finity, or relativity. Anything below the 8th level is a kind of focus on a range of possibilities extant in infinity. Red ray is the most specific, and violet ray is the most general. I suppose one could say the octave is even more general, but there is no relativity there at all, so its kind of neither.

[Minyatur]

I don't see love as synonymous with unity, just really really close. As close as we can humanly approximate. It's like the sun and its rays. The rays are not the sun, but you get a sense of its nature from them because they aren't too far distorted from its reality to bridge the imagination.

To me, the "octave density" is simply infinity itself, which is interestingly, and accurately, unconsciously reflected by our cultural choice for the infinity symbol itself which is essentially an "8" lying on its side.

Each density is contained by its higher from my point of view. 1st is contained by 2nd, which is contained by 3rd, which is contained by 4th and so on. So the broadest "orbit of infinty" is represented by the octave density. Within that infinitely encompassing octave density are multiple violet ray "islands", and these are the octave islands. Each one is its own exploration of the rays. The 8th level is not focused at all from my perspective. Rather, it is completely unfocused as unpotentiated intelligent infinity (it is the plenum of infinity in other-words). It is basically beingness absorbed in beingness. The Absolute. The violet ray explorations, which contain all the rays down to red, are simply the progressive narrowing focus of infinity to a specific possibility of finity, or relativity. Anything below the 8th level is a kind of focus on a range of possibilities extant in infinity. Red ray is the most specific, and violet ray is the most general. I suppose one could say the octave is even more general, but there is no relativity there at all, so its kind of neither.

So you would deem Love to be a violet ray island? Containing the potential of manifestation within any other violet ray island?

[anagogy]

So you would deem Love to be a violet ray island? Containing the potential of manifestation within any other violet ray island?

The Logoic focus that is Love would, to my mind be a violet ray focus, yes. The 7 densities or rays, of that particular Logos, would be contained within that violet ray focus of wholeness. But there are many varieties of "love". When most humans think of love, they think of green ray. But there is a more refined manifestation of love in violet ray, which Ra described as the 2nd distortion, or Logos.

But as far as manifesting in other violet ray islands, generally no. Though, that isn't to say there isn't a dialog across octaves between Logoi, and this is perhaps what Ra was describing as the "bringers of light". They would be like the neurotransmitters in our brains, but connecting to another "brain". If looked at in their separation, they might look like travelers from another octave, but from a broader perspective, they might be seen as simply the thought sharing between Logoic islands (focuses of intelligent energy).

[tamaryn]

Just let it burn away all that remains. It is already burning away just let it, willingly jump into that inferno of nothing. Dive perpetually, and see it was nothing all along. Empty.

You are disturbed at nothingness, because you still hold on to some thing. The mind is still engaged in understanding.

Let it be emptied. Open the mind so far, the mind ceases to exist. Then we have found nothing - our beingness - peace. Keep focus here, and let all else sink back to This. This is communion with Silence. This is honoring your Being, instead of running away with the mind.

[Infinite Unity]

I have a different partake, the creator being one unending, unstarting being. So unity is a shadow of this. I see unity as many-ness/spiritual shuttle as = to unity. I see the creation as almost a necromonic act. With unity= the shuttle of love/connectedness as unity. Unity manifests any many forms, the one that strikes me most often is the symbiotic relationship contained within nature. I believe the logos has a kind of symbiotic relationship with the creator. As is an illusion is finite with set parameters, it will always be an shadow unto the creator/infinity. I would say a mirror, but this impregnates the mind with a duplicate image scenario. The creation is apart of infinity, However it is not its duplicate. That is why it is an approximation of knowing itself.

[sjel]

I've always wondered, when thinking about this sort of thing - consciousness is only ONE aspect out of the INFINITE aspects. meaning that the consciousness that we assume to be extending down and up through the eternal depths of existence - this too is a subset of some greater, larger... SOMETHING. So there are infinite other "things" that are as infinitely complex as consciousness itself.

Of course we can say, "but how could anything but consciousness exist?" well, since when are we taking our third density idea of infinity as truth?

I wonder, further, if our octave is a subcategory of polarity, in which we are the side of consciousness, and the "opposite," nonconsciousness, or some concept we obviously cannot understand as we are conscious, is just as infinite and ever expanding, just as consciousness does.