giving and taking advice, a Poll

[Agua del Cielo]

Dear fellow seekers,
i made an observation and would like your feedback on it!

The observation is in regards to people asking for advice, mostly in how to deal with difficult situations.
In many of these threads, to me it seemed that people actually never follow any advice
Many times there are helpful approaches, methods and techniques shared, but ( i can only assume from what people post in response) there was rarely or never a situation where someone said "hey, i tried this method or technique and it did/ did not work".
From the few occasions in the chat this impression got much stronger, it seemed nobody is really listening but very eager to speak/write.
So my first assumption is, that it just became more obvious in the chat, but is basically the same in the forum.
My second assumption is, that its basically more about sharing one's story and having someone that listens, rather than really wanting some advice or approach or method to try out.
I guess you know what i mean.

So, i'd like to have your opinions on this.
If my assumption is right, it would then be much more effective and helpful to actively really listen and offer understanding and compassion than suggesting any kind of method or the likes!

I hope its possible to click multiple options (its my first poll), if not, please click the option you feel is most suitable in regards to this threads question!
Thanks for your feedback everybody


edit:
btw, the poll is anonymous, please reply as honestly as possible

[earth_spirit]

-----

[sjel]

Most of the time that I feel like someone isn't listening, it's because I'm not listening deep enough.

[anagogy]

Oftentimes, the people who are asking for advice are not really looking for help, rather, they are simply seeking *attention*. The desire is often consciously obfuscated, meaning, they don't even understand the true motivations of their behavior themselves. Their 'id' is driving them, and they don't know it or even care to know it. They often think they need help/advice, but really they are simply looking for love (or the closest thing to it -- which is attention of any kind, even if its not "acceptance" per se). But they can't come forward and say that either, because its not exactly a flattering realization.

But then, most people are looking for love in all the wrong places. It has to come from within, before it can be reflected without. When you no longer 'need' love from other people, you'll get more of it than you ever wanted, because you are no longer seeking it from the vibrational standpoint of believing it is not already there in the first place. Our higher self is constantly bathing us in the most extreme love you could possibly imagine (and it never stops unlike the fickle humans we often surround ourselves with), and if people could learn to tune into that, they wouldn't be seeking it from a place of lack (which ultimately just translates to an affirmation of 'no love' in your vibrational aura, which then attracts the reflection of that in your outer life).

The problem is you have to believe before you see, and people want to see before they believe. That's the hard part. But that is what we are here to learn. We aren't expected to figure it out instantly. This is a school after-all.      

[Diana]

Giving advice is like throwing seeds into the wind. It is scattering potential. Sometimes the seeds will take root, sometimes not.

Advice is a gift, and it best be given without attachment, in my opinion. If it is given with attachment to an outcome, then it is tied to control, and becomes conditional rather than unconditional. I do realize that advice is often given with much love, but still, as with any gift, once it leaves your hands it's best not to judge what another does or doesn't do with it.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Most of the time when people think I'm not listening, I still am.

I'm not required to do what I'm told

I think there's some great insights here.  I think you underestimate the power of your advices.

[Agua del Cielo]

Thanks to all for your helpful contributions!

Oftentimes, the people who are asking for advice are not really looking for help, rather, they are looking for 'attention'...

I think this is true very often and good to keep in mind when responding in threads!

But then, most people are looking for love in all the wrong places. It has to come from within, before it can be reflected without. When you no longer 'need' love from other people, you'll get more of it than you ever wanted, because you are no longer seeking it from the vibrational standpoint of believing it is not already there in the first place. Our higher self is constantly bathing us in the most extreme love you could possibly imagine (and it never stops unlike the fickle humans we often surround ourselves with), and if people could learn to tune into that, they wouldn't be seeking it from a place of lack (which ultimately just translates to an affirmation. of 'no love' in your vibrational aura, which then attracts the reflection of that in your outer life.

not sure if we mean the same "thing" so i'd like to add some thoughts.

I think this is true and untrue at the same time!
Depending on the "aspect" we deal with.

I believe the bigger part of humanity (not necessarily all though) experienced states of helplessness and neglect in the formative years.
Desperately "needing" something and not getting it (not talking bout toys here) is somewhere from unbearable and life-threatening, depending on the exact age and situation.
Because of that it the "need" is usually being dissociated. If this is the case, the person would develop a pattern, where it perceives itself as very independant and self-sufficient (i hope that was english), apparently not needing anything from others.
On the spiritual path there is a temptation to "translate" this into more spiritual terms, in that case, "i get all i need from my higher self".
At the price of dissociating and denying that part.
the further effects would be a tendency to avoid intimate relationships or taking a very independant position in a relationship, for example.
That is a part that has to be healed first, the need should be accepted as well as the pain of being neglected (for example).
AFTER that, it will be much easier, to ask for help for example, as well as to bear.

This would then be the right time to transfer the need to a more non-personal or non-human "source" .
If the "healing"step is being ommitted or ny-passed its actually dissociation and denial.

But maybe you were talking bout the same thing.


I experienced this myself btw.
Until my early thirties i was more on the rational and controlled side of life.
I perceived myself as very independant and never needed anything from other people.
It was when i experienced my first "dark night of the soul" after a relationship breakup.

In a therapy session, all of a sudden realized than all my independance, all my "i need nothing" and my "all i need i get from higher sources" was not true at all, just a lie.
I realized, how bad i needed love, someone to be there. I realized i just could not stand the pain that nobody was there when i need someone.
That really freaked me out. I realized how much of my life was built on that lie.
All my "secureness" was gone all of a sudden and i felt like the most dependant being on earth, not able to survive on my own.
After maybe two weeks, it subsided. Much control was gone now, and my relationship with myself and others greatly deepened.

I experienced quite a few "states" or "issues" that just are not possible to resolve alone or with "higher sources" only. There are some issues that can only be healed with a human counterpart in my opinion.

[anagogy]

In a therapy session, all of a sudden realized than all my independance, all my "i need nothing" and my "all i need i get from higher sources" was not true at all, just a lie.
I realized, how bad i needed love, someone to be there. I realized i just could not stand the pain that nobody was there when i need someone.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that we need nothing from others and only need things from 'higher' sources. I'm just saying that what you experience 'out there' in your life is just a reflection of what you experience 'in there' in your life.

It isn't a revolutionary statement by any means, but I find it important to remind myself constantly, because it is easy to forget (the illusion is designed to lure one into accepting that there is such a thing as 'external' but there is only one of us here). If you can generate the feeling of love within, the outer reflection is sure to follow.

At least, that has been my experience. It is just a movement away from a victim mindset, to a more empowering one. This isn't devaluing the outer experience of companionship and love from others, just pointing to the underlying unity of the situation -- which is the fact that the internal and external are part of one unified continuum. Many people delude themselves into thinking they have found the love within themselves, and then are harshly confronted by the external reflection of what they *actually* believe about themselves. These experiences, though painful, should be celebrated in much the same way that an empty display on a gas tank should be appreciated, so that you know when it is time to fill up on gas.  

They are just indicators of an internal condition. If they weren't brutally honest, they wouldn't be helpful for seeing our vibrational framework tangibly manifested. It would be like trying to comb your hair with a mirror that was heavily distorted, the end result would probably be amusing (not reflective of what we are trying to accomplish). Events/relationships in our lives are much like planets that orbit around the central sun of self. The nature of the gravity attracts them and keeps them in orbit around us (or not around us in some cases).  

[Agua del Cielo]

@anagogy

thanks for clarifying, so we re on the same track basically, if i get you right!

About that victim identity, thats very true!
I think its important to differentiate which "part" is active.
There most likely is a part in us that was a "victim" and this should be realized and adressed accordingly when its active!
When its active its an old issue though and has only been triggered by the recent situation.

Its very important to not build an idendity on this, i agree highly!

[Agua del Cielo]

Now, if there are those who would ask you questions, feel free to offer all that you have to offer in those regards, but make a clear distinction in your mind between responding to an asked question and sermonizing to those who have not asked for a sermon. What will affect those about you is not your knowledge. It is that which shines through you, the love of the Creator.

I somehow had the feeling they were speaking to me, i should keep this in mind before i start my sermon

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._0911.aspx

[Agua del Cielo]

Giving advice is like throwing seeds into the wind. It is scattering potential. Sometimes the seeds will take root, sometimes not.

Advice is a gift, and it best be given without attachment, in my opinion. If it is given with attachment to an outcome, then it is tied to control, and becomes conditional rather than unconditional. I do realize that advice is often given with much love, but still, as with any gift, once it leaves your hands it's best not to judge what another does or doesn't do with it.

I absolutely agree with you!
I just seem to have difficulties with this, i find i cannot detach from it at the moment without dissociating a part of me.
Something seems to be connected with it, that i did not yet understand.
Maybe its that it leads me to question my "service"which might result in either refining it so it is more helpful or in realizing, that the kind of "service" i can offer is not something that is useful in a internet forum.

I have not much choice anyway but to follow what arises :/

[Dekalb_Blues]

~
This is some information for those of us here who might have a real use for it, minus all the
usual kinds of packaging and hoopla usually attendant upon the propitiation of over-sensitive
sensibilities in motion.
For the latter, there will seem to be precisely no "friendly vibe" in it that resonates; it will quite probably be
perceived as too dry, impersonal, intellectual, heartless, impertinent, cynical, supercilious, wall-o'-texty,
irrrelevant, no fun, and so on. They are following a different narrative with its own theme, tempo,
personnel, and catalyst, in another region/phase of (presumably) the service-to-other polarity.
So it's all good. And it's all One anyway. According to those of Ra. But what do they know. Harrumph.
As the Sufis say, "In it what's in it" -- with special regard to those who see that they're
"in this world but not of it," and have some feelz for the truly imposing complexity and
sophistication of the common existential predicaments enforced by crucially limited self-referencing
powers wielded by us as sentient imperfectly-informed mortals in a practically unlimited and perfect reality.
There's so much to learn!!! One has to know how to pay attention properly in order to learn from something/someone.

Characteristics of Attention and
Observation
Q: Can you define characteristics of attention and observation
as of importance in Sufic studies?
A: Study the attracting, extending and reception, as well as the
interchange, of attention.
One of the keys to human behavior is the attention-factor.
Anyone can verify that many instances, generally supposed to
be important or useful human transactions on any subject (social,
commercial, etc.,) are in fact disguised attention-situations.
It is contended that if a person does not know what he is doing
(in this case that he is basically demanding, extending, or exchanging
attention) and as a consequence thinks that he is doing
something else (contributing to human knowledge, learning, buying,
selling, informing, etc.,) he will

   (a) be more inefficient at both the overt and the covert activity;
   (b) have less capacity of planning his behavior and will make mistakes
of emotion and intellect because he considers attention to be other than it is.

If this is true, it is most important that individuals realize:

   1. That this attention-factor is operating in virtually all transactions;
   2. That the apparent motivation of transactions may be other
than it really is. And that it is often generated by the need or
desire for attention-activity (giving, receiving, exchanging).
   3. That attention-activity, like any other demand for food,
warmth, etc., when placed under volitional control, must result in
increased scope for the human being who would then not be at
the mercy of random sources of attention, or even more confused
than usual if things do not pan out as they expect.

CERTAIN PRINCIPLES MAY BE ENUNCIATED. THEY INCLUDE:

   1. Too much attention can be bad (inefficient).
   2. Too little attention can be bad.
   3. Attention may be 'hostile' or 'friendly' and still fulfill the
appetite for attention. This is confused by the moral aspect.
   4. When people need a great deal of attention they are vulnerable
to the message which too often accompanies the exercise of
attention towards them. E.g., someone wanting attention might
be able to get it only from some person or organization which
might thereafter exercise (as 'its price') an undue influence upon
the attention-starved individual's mind.
   5. Present beliefs have often been inculcated at a time and under
circumstances connected with attention-demand, and not arrived at
by the method attributed to them.
   6. Many paradoxical reversals of opinion, or of associates and
commitments, may be seen as due to the change in a source of
attention.
   7. People are almost always stimulated by an offer of attention,
since most people are frequently attention-deprived. This is one
reason why new friends, or circumstances, for instance, may be
preferred to old ones.
   8. If people could learn to assuage attention-hunger, they would
be in a better position than most present cultures allow them, to
attend to other things. They could extend the effectiveness of their
learning capacity.
   9. Among the things which unstarved people (in the sense of
attention) could investigate, is the comparative attraction of ideas,
individuals, etc., apart from their purely attention-supplying function.
   10. The desire for attention starts at an early stage of infancy. It
is, of course, at that point linked with feeding and protection. This
is not to say that this desire has no further nor future development
value. But it can be adapted beyond its ordinary adult usage of
mere satisfaction.
   11. Even a cursory survey of human communities shows that,
while the random eating tendency, possessiveness, and other
undifferentiated characteristics are very early trained or diverted --
weaned -- the attention-factor does not get the same treatment.
The consequence is that the adult human being, deprived of any
method of handling his desire for attention, continues to
be confused by it: as it usually remains primitive throughout
life.
   12. Very numerous individual observations of human transactions
have been made. They show that an interchange between two people
always has an attention-factor.
   13. Observation shows that people's desires for attention ebb and
flow. When in an ebb or flow of attention-desire, the human being
not realizing that this is his condition attributes his actions and
feelings to other factors, e.g., the hostility or pleasantness of others.
He may even say that it is a 'lucky day', when his attention-needs
have been quickly and adequately met. Re-examination of such situations
has shown that such experiences are best accounted for by the attention-
theory.
   14. Objections based upon the supposed pleasure of attention
being strongest when it is randomly achieved do not stand up
when carefully examined. 'I prefer to be surprised by attention'
can be paraphrased by saying, 'I prefer not to know where my
next meal is coming from'. It simply underlines a primitive stage
of feeling and thinking on this subject.
   15. Situations which seem different when viewed from an oversimplified
 perspective (which is the usual one) are seen to be the
same by the application of attention-theory. E.g.: People following an
authority-figure may be exercising the desire for attention
or the desire to give it. The interchange between people and their
authority-figure may be explained by mutual-attention behavior.
Some gain only attention from this interchange. Some can gain
more.
   16. Another confusion is caused by the fact that the object of
attention may be a person, a cult, an object, an idea, interest, etc.
Because the foci of attention can be so diverse, people in general
have not yet identified the common factor -- the desire for attention.
   17. One of the advantages of this theory is that it allows the
human mind to link in a coherent and easily-understood way
many things which it has always (wrongly) been taught are very
different, not susceptible to comparison, etc. This incorrect training
has, of course, impaired the possible efficiency in functioning
of the brain, though only culturally, not permanently.
   18. The inability to feel when attention is extended, and also to
encourage or to prevent its being called forth, makes man almost
uniquely vulnerable to being influenced, especially in having ideas
implanted in his brain, and being indoctrinated.
   19. Raising the emotional pitch is the most primitive method of
increasing attention towards the instrument which increased the
emotion. It is the prelude to, or accompaniment of, almost every
form of indoctrination.
   20. Traditional philosophical and other teachings have been
used to prescribe exercises in the control and focusing of attention.
Their value, however, has been to a great measure lost
because the individual exercises, prescribed for people in need of
exercise, have been written down and repeated as unique truths
and practiced in a manner with people, and at a rate and under
circumstances which, by their very randomness, have not been able
to effect any change in the attention-training. This treatment has,
however, produced obsession. It continues to do so.
   21. Here and there proverbs and other pieces of literary material
indicate that there has been at one time a widespread knowledge
of attention on the lines now being described. Deprived, however,
of context, these indications survive as fossil indicators rather than
being a useful guide to attention-exercise for contemporary man.
Attention upon oneself, or upon a teacher, without the exercise
of securing what is being offered from beyond the immediate
surroundings, is a sort of short-circuit. As Rumi said: 'Do not
look at me, but take what is in my hand'.





----------------------


Q: If you were to give a number of study themes to the people
present, which ones would you stress?

A:
   1. All approaches to a study or an individual may start with a
desire for attention. However they start, they must never end up
in this manner.
   2. Study the assumptions behind your actions. Then study the
assumptions behind your assumptions.
   3. 'Why did I do such-and-such a thing?' is all very well. But
what about 'How otherwise could I have done it?'
   4. You have come a long way, and you do not know it. You
have a long way to go, and you do know what that means.
   5. In respect to some, you may have advanced. In relation to
others, you have not progressed at all. Neither observation is
more important than the other.
   6. If your desire for 'good' is based on greed, it is not good, but
greed.
   7. Exercise power by means of kindness, and you may be
causing more damage than you could by cruelty. Neither approach
is correct.
   8. The man who knows must discharge a function. The one
who does not, cannot arrogate one to himself; he can only try to do
so.
   9. Do not try to be humble: learn humility.
   10. Assume that you are part-hypocrite and part heedless, and
you will not be far wrong.
   11. To copy a virtue in another is more copying than it is virtue.
Try to learn what that virtue is based upon.
   12. No practice exists in isolation.
   13. If you seek a teacher, try to become a real student. If you
want to be a student, try to find a real teacher.
   14. The more often you do a thing, the more likely you are to
do it again. There is no certainty that you will gain anything
else from repetition than a likelihood of further repetition.
   15. At first, you are not worthy of the robes and implements of
the Sufi. Later you do not need them. Finally, you may need them
for the sake of others.
   16. If you cannot laugh frequently and genuinely, you have no
soul.
   17. When a belief becomes more than an instrument, you are
lost. You remain lost until you learn what 'belief' is really for.
   18. When a dervish shows interest in your material welfare, you
may be pleased. But it is frequently because you are not yet ready
for anything else.
   19. When someone asks for you to help in doing something, do
you imagine that it is because he cannot do it unaided? Perhaps
he is a Sufi who wants to help you by connecting you with his
task.
   20. If you are lazy, count yourself lucky if someone points this
out, giving you a chance to improve. Laziness is always your
fault. It is the sign that a man has persevered in uselessness for
too long.

These points are in fact exercises in outwitting the false self,
which thrives on smaller satisfactions. The Sufi aims at Fana
(passing away -- of the False Self) and Baqa (remaining -- of the
Real). Behind the supposed I, which is impermanent, lies the
real one, which is characterised by the awareness of truth, of
reality.
And listen to the words of Junaid of Baghdad, when he said:
'A good-natured sensualist is better than a bad-tempered so-called
Sufi.'

http://www.idriesshahfoundation.org/book...-to-learn/



[Remarks on attention following 19:46]: