In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

But there is also another category - the things you DONT KNOW YOU DONT KNOW. And it is this category that has the most to offer you. The stuff that you don't know you don't know is stuff that can totally change your life.

The truth is that for most people including those in this thread, you don't know that you don't know. You don't know because you've never tried it and because you have incorrect beliefs that has been implanted into you by society. This is ok, this is a big part of living on Earth, but the point is just that you have no idea how much your life might improve by improving your diet.

Wow, somehow I missed the earlier posts on this thread! yossarian, where are you? I hope you come back! You have said some very profound things!

As someone who has dabbled with a raw foods vegan diet, I agree totally! It's just impossible to understand the buoyant energy one gets by eating raw foods. I didn't stick with it at the time for various reasons...but I'm working my way back to it.

It's just not true that everyone has a different ideal diet based on genes and culture. The human biology does not work out this way. The ideal diet is ideal because it is the diet that all humans share and that all humans evolved for over literally millions of years. Humans are adaptable and can survive on practically anything, but some things make them happier and healthier than others and most people don't know what they're missing until they try it.

Well said!

An example is celiac disease. This is a disease that doctors will say only occurs in 3% of the population. Celiac disease is a diseases whereby you demonstrate very unhealthy symptoms when you eat food with gluten - breads, pastas and starchy foods like that. The truth is that *everyone* has celiac disease, just for most humans they don't notice because it is not severe enough. Celiac disease is probably the reason why many vegans and vegetarians go back to eating meat - they were eating too much rice and pasta and bread and not enough fruits and vegetables, so meat is actually an improvement over their vegan/veggie diet.

*Everyone* has celiac disease. There isn't a single human in the world who will not feel more energetic by clearing out their intestines of the gummy gluten and replacing it with a better food such as fish or fruit. This is the type of thing that people don't know they don't know and it's just the tip of the iceberg.

This is blowing my mind! I knew a lot of people are down on grains but I hadn't heard it put quite that way.

A similar thing happens with cheese. A lot of vegetarians go cheese-crazy and end up being a lot more unhealthy because of it.

Guilty!!!

The only responsible way to go vegan or vegetarian without harming your health is to increase your intake of fruits and vegetables. *That* is where all the health benefits come from. And since vegetables don't provide calories, this means getting calories from fruit.

Our genetic ancestors (apes) did not live in the cold. When the ETs combined Martian DNA with Earth-ape DNA to create humans 75,000 years ago they took on the digestive system of the ape, who did not live in Europe or Canada or Russia. These are unnatural environments for our bodies. Humans are tropical creatures just like apes and have the same basic diet as apes.


We adapted to the cold northern environment, but at a cost. Our lifespans decreased, our psychic abilities atrophied, our energy went down.

The human body only uses glucose - every calorie you put into your stomach is broken down into glucose before being absorbed into your cells. When you put a complex carb, a starchy potato, beef, or bread, that stuff just gets turned into fruit anyway. Fruit is mostly glucose. Fruit is already in the digestible form.

I agree that cooked food is delicious, but so are many harmful substances like alcohol and tobacco and cocaine. No one ever regrets increasing their fruit intake.

WOW! Again my mind is blown! But of course, apes are tropical!!! Wow, wow, WOW! This explains so much to me!

I knew I didn't agree with the 'blood type' diet but wasn't sure why. Now I know why. The creation of humans from the ape body by our ET friends predates the migration of humans to various climates. Or, more likely, our ET friends planted the various tribes of humans (from the other planets) in different geographical locations. So they had to adapt. But they ALL originated from the ape raw material!

Oh this makes so much sense! Thanks for sharing this. I feel like a light bulb just went on.

[fairyfarmgirl]

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[Richard]

Ya know, Monica…I guess I was just being thin skinned. Its kind of reversed, I suppose. When the vegetarian attends a get together and himself / herself the topic of commentary in an otherwise omnivorous crowd? And then I step into a crowd of vegetarians, lolol.

Richard

[transiten]

Wow yossarian!

I once was a strict lactovegetarian. Then i started to add shrimps and fish and lately i've added "ecological" poultry and meat now and then since i didn't get enough protein. Today spring is bursting here in Gothenburg; i'm on KangenWater and i just feel better and better and my craving for meat is decreasing. I will probably keep the shrimps (how much do they suffer compared to fish?) but increase my intake of fruit and nuts. I already find myself eating less bread but i eat boiled buckwheet with nuts, dates and figs with oatmilk in the morning. I won't quit cheese and cream, but eat less (milk i don't drink anymore) I've started to eat sprouts again and i will keep quinoa, rice and barleygrain and ryebread, but less than before.

My dog also drinks KangenWater. 2 months ago i had to carry him up and down the stairs from the 3.rd floor, now he climbs the stairs all by himself and even had a short run after another dog yesterday

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[Ali Quadir]

Then i started to add shrimps and fish and lately i've added "ecological" poultry and meat now and then since i didn't get enough protein.

Out of curiosity. How do you know you don't get enough protein? What are the symptoms?

[transiten]

Aha! You're back Ali

My healthpractiotionner had a hairanalysis made in Germany where all my
imbalances were tracked And there were a lot of them. Among other things she said i should eat spareribs and especially the parts close to the ribs since i had a low level of methionine which is essential for your hair. I started to loose a lot of hair 2 years ago and it's still not OK but something is happening on the positive side here also.

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[Monica]

Ya know, Monica…I guess I was just being thin skinned. Its kind of reversed, I suppose. When the vegetarian attends a get together and himself / herself the topic of commentary in an otherwise omnivorous crowd? And then I step into a crowd of vegetarians, lolol.

Thank you for understanding! Yes, this is what we vegetarians deal with all the time: being outnumbered and even ganged up on.

Some years ago, some of my former co-workers went out to lunch and brought back some beef tips. As I happened to walk by their table, they asked me if I wanted the beef. I smiled politely and said, "No thank you, I am a vegetarian."

Well, they then all pounced! Rather than showing respect for my choice, they began teasing and taunting me. They made comments about my dogs eating better than I did...called me a 'tree hugger' with disdain...and laughed and laughed.

There were about 8 of them. I finally lost it and told them that if we had more tree huggers, the world would be a better place. I don't remember what else I said, but I got upset. It was discrimination and harassment. i later spoke to one of them one-on-one, and explained that their ridicule of my lifestyle choice was no different from someone ridiculing another person for their race, religion, or sexual orientation.

The co-worker was startled at the comparison. He had never thought of it that way. To him, diet was so...ordinary. It had never occurred to him that diet could be part of a spiritual or ethical conviction. Once I explained to him that my diet was part of my spirituality, he showed more respect.

But I shouldn't have had to do that. Why couldn't I be respected for my choice, even if it were just a personal choice?

At that same office, one of the women made it her mission to get me to eat meat and candy. She would leave candy on my desk. I told her she might as well leave rocks - I wasn't being tempted! She told me I was 'too extreme' for not eating meat or sugar. She kept trying to 'tempt' me and did not grasp that I truly was no more tempted to eat a piece of candy than I was a rock, and that meat was actually repulsive to me.

I never told her she should become a vegetarian. I never told any of them that. I was harassed and ridiculed just for being who I was.

So yeah, I do want to raise awareness. And if a few vegetarians gather on 1 or 2 threads on an otherwise meat-eater-dominated discussion forum, I hope that everyone will understand that we have feelings too, and it's important to us to be able to express those feelings, just as others express theirs. We're a minority. We haven't experienced discrimination to the degree that minority ethnicities have, but it is discrimination nonetheless. I thank everyone for your patience and understanding.

[Brittany]

I honestly think there is no true answer to this question, except to do what resonates with you. Do I think it is wrong to eat meat? No. Do I think some people (okay, a lot of people) would benefit more from a vegetarian diet, simply because of the way our bodies are designed? Yes. But then some people (like Carla) actually need to eat red meat due to certain quirks in their bodies or energy levels. In the end, it doesn't matter much to me.

I'd say anyone who tells you you MUST do one thing or the other is displaying STS characteristics.

[Will]

Swami Sri Yukteswar wrote a book called The Holy Science in which he touches on the whole question of eating meat that I found interesting. If I remember correctly, he ate meat in his younger days before he took up the Yoga Path, and I believe he even used to hunt. The reasons he gives for suggesting a yogi not eat meat are a bit more physiological than moral. For the yogi, it is more about what makes the body function at its highest so that the yogi can perform yoga more efficiently.

He relates the length of our digestive tract and our digestive enzymes to other meat eating and non-meat eating animals and how our digestive tract length is best suit to fruit etc. And I remember Carla metioning the same thing once. (She must have read the same book.) He also touches on our natural inclination (for most people anyway,) to enjoy the smell and taste of an orange versus the natural inclination of a tiger to enjoy lapping up the blood of a dying animal which at least most humans probably wouldn't enjoy. And our aversion to the smell of slaughterhouses and rotting meat that most predators find quite pleasing.

I found it to have some interesting points anyway. And I have to say that I have far fewer stomach troubles since I stopped eating meat and started trying to eat in a more conscietious manner, not to mention what it has added to my yoga. That being said, if someone serves me something that has chicken or fish in it, I won't make a big deal about it. I'll eat around it if I can and not put too much importance on it as my beingness is not dependent on anything I do to my body, and worrying so much about what you eat can distract you from more important matters.

[thefool]

I honestly think there is no true answer to this question, except to do what resonates with you. Do I think it is wrong to eat meat? No. Do I think some people (okay, a lot of people) would benefit more from a vegetarian diet, simply because of the way our bodies are designed? Yes. But then some people (like Carla) actually need to eat red meat due to certain quirks in their bodies or energy levels. In the end, it doesn't matter much to me.

I'd say anyone who tells you you MUST do one thing or the other is displaying STS characteristics.

Well said. Thanks for saving me the trouble of typing. Actually I had something similar going on in my mind

[Monica]

In the end, it doesn't matter much to me.

I'd say anyone who tells you you MUST do one thing or the other is displaying STS characteristics.

Are you saying that those who are trying to raise awareness about animal suffering, and imploring others to quit contributing to it, are displaying STS characteristics?

Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you!

I agree that if someone says, "You MUST believe in the Bible" that's STS, because spiritual beliefs are a personal choice, but do you consider it the same if they say, "You MUST not rape that child." ...? Would that be STS too? Or is it ok if the goal is to save someone from harm? Do we still say, "It's your choice...it doesn't matter" if they are harming someone?

I'm confused and truly just trying to understand. Please forgive me for my questions! Again, no judgment is intended. I'm digging deep because I really am trying to understand the other point of view.

I'm having trouble understanding how the suffering of other beings doesn't matter, but those who are trying to end the suffering would be STS. Could someone explain this to me?

The only explanation I can find is that people just don't consider animals to have value as beings. This too I don't understand. Women and minority ethnicities were once considered 'things' instead of beings. How is this any different? How is speciesism any different from racism?

[thefool]

I'll eat around it if I can and not put too much importance on it as my beingness is not dependent on anything I do to my body, and worrying so much about what you eat can distract you from more important matters.

Yup! It is our understanding that is important. Too much focus on what we are eating just defeats the purpose.

The food serves us by providing nutrition and providing energy. Vegetarian diet is most likely more light and helpful for meditation and feeling of finer emotions. That comes from my own experience. But you don't have to be a strict 100% vegetarian to do that. I have been raised as a 100% vegetarian and even now around 95% of my diet is vegetarian. But if I feel the need to feed my body some meat, I am not going to feel ashamed or guilty. That is getting caught into another cycle of fear and guilt. Body is an instrument, a vehicle for the 3 D world and it needs fuel. Different vehicles needs different fuels and mixtures. Some run on diesel, some on gas (Petrol for European guys) and some on battery. You just need to know yourself and your vehicle, understand the demands and run it that way.

Ra advised Carla to eat some meat- That has got to count for something...

Questioner: Could Ra please state which foods are highly probable to not cause the spasming?

Ra: I am Ra. The liquids not containing carbonation, the well-cooked vegetable which is most light and soft, the well-cooked grains, the non-fatted meat such as the fish. You may note that some recommended foodstuffs overlap allergies and sensitivities due to the juvenile rheumatoid arthritic distortions. Further, although sugar such as is in your sweetened desserts represents a potential, we may suggest that it be included at this period for aforementioned reasons.

Questioner: Are there any foods that are helpful or harmful that the instrument might eat?

Ra: I am Ra. This instrument has body complex distortion towards ill health in the distortion direction corrected best by ingestion of the foodstuffs of your grains and your vegetables, as you call them. However, this is extremely unimportant when regarded as an aid with equality to other aids such as attitude which this instrument has in abundance. It, however, aids the vital energies of this instrument, with less distortion towards ill health, to ingest foodstuffs in the above manner with the occasional ingestion of what you call your meats, due to the instrument’s need to lessen the distortion towards low vital energy.

[litllady]

I just want to say I really appreciate those opening up to others about personal diets and personal reasoning's. Discussing our paths and reasoning's is important for us as a unit and I believe we truly are a unit somehow someway.

I can only offer my own experiences with food and spiritual things.

A few years back when I really began my personal path of seeking...a inner need to watch and observe what I ate was important. I listened to this inner need...and practiced my first fast from meat. That few weeks that I practiced my first fast was one of the most humble times of my life and it was a eye opener to me of the spiritual world around me. It was as if the Earth and Universe were talking with me daily. I learned to respect the cycle of life....and there was no way of getting around the cycle and the order of....LIFE MUST CONSUME LIFE TO HAVE LIFE....this is true for all creatures on this sphere.

For me, the power was in the awareness of the life. The giving of thanks for the life that gave me life. This naturally drew me into eating more plants over meat outside of my times of fasting (which I do once a year following the spring equinox, on my 3rd yr now of the practice). For me, its for spiritual discipline to show I can overcome my Earthly desires of things I like in my Earthly body. I dont fret that I dont do this more then a few weeks out of the year. I also think that awareness of live meat can be when we do the hunt and cleaning and preparing ourselves. Im not sure why but I have less trouble eating meat that someone in my family has hunted themselves and cleaned themselves then I do eating meat from the market. Mabey its because I feel that in the moment of taking that life of lets say the fish....I know there is thanks being giving to nature in that very moment for the life being providing to us.

With saying that...anything you make for a meal...you can add love right into the food. You are life, you are aware, and the Universe is aware when your thoughts of love are put forth....therefor a natural blessing upon the food you prepare is like a pinch of love placed right into the food. I believe that awareness and thanks alone can be added to all foods and in a way, a blessing is then placed in that food and enters the bodies of the people that you cooked for.

Some bodies have a hard time mechanically without meat. Some people have high acid problems and get alto of heart burn on meatless diets. I have heard that people with 'o' blood types may have a hard time eating meatless diets.

Just being aware and always giving thanks to life itself, for here, in this vessel and on this sphere....life sustains life.

Oddly enough...we need Earthly things for our Earthly life...we need spiritual things for our spiritual life. Just be aware which is which so we can observe what life we are feeding.

[Ali Quadir]

So yeah, I do want to raise awareness. And if a few vegetarians gather on 1 or 2 threads on an otherwise meat-eater-dominated discussion forum, I hope that everyone will understand that we have feelings too, and it's important to us to be able to express those feelings, just as others express theirs. We're a minority. We haven't experienced discrimination to the degree that minority ethnicities have, but it is discrimination nonetheless. I thank everyone for your patience and understanding.

You raise some recognizable and interesting points Monica. I have had a group of friends for over 10 years now. And I've eaten with them at least monthly. But it's impossible to get through one meal without a comment on being vegetarian. It's impossible. Also, it's impossible for people to find out you being vegetarian and saying, ok, cool, next subject. I really don't care about being a vegetarian its just what I am. And I don't like explaining why I am. So my regular answer is "habit", or "girls dig it".... I found that if you make it corny and as remote from lofty ideals as possible people tend to back off sooner rather than later without being insulted.

[Lorna]

Are you saying that those who are trying to raise awareness about animal suffering, and imploring others to quit contributing to it, are displaying STS characteristics?

first of all, monica please know that i completely know where you're coming from, i absolutely do and i admire your passion and your commitment to this issue

personally... while i wouldn't go so far as to say that this is displaying sts characteristics, my feeling on this is that 'encouraging' people to feel guilty or uncomfortable with what they choose to eat is not really sto

you and i inherrently feel the wrongness in eating meat, and we are right, for us

other people cannot contemplate a life without meat, it is 'right' for them and who are we to say that other people are wrong, they are following their own path, doing what is right for them

my experience on this issue has led me to conclude that there is nothing to be gained from provoking meat eaters to consider the ethics of eating meat. absolutely nothing.

if people are ready to cease eating meat then they will. similarly if people are ready to discover the LOO then they'll trip over it on their journey at exactly the right time for them. is it your role in life to provoke people to change their lifestyles? or could you shine more light by embracing the choices that people make for themselves and remaining open to quiety, positively and honestly sharing your views when they are asked for

i know and completely understand your point of view, please don't think that i don't, but free will, well tbh to me respecting the free will of other entities means respecting the choices others make even when you think they are absolutely totally wrong and cruel and sick to do so

xxx

[Monica]

personally... while i wouldn't go so far as to say that this is displaying sts characteristics, my feeling on this is that 'encouraging' people to feel guilty or uncomfortable with what they choose to eat is not really sto

I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. Why does my asking questions make anyone feel guilty? I am truly trying to understand why the harming of animals is viewed as ok by those who would ordinarily champion the liberation of humans who are being harmed. I am being open here. Why is the person asking the questions viewed as doing something 'not sto'?

other people cannot contemplate a life without meat,

Respectfully, how do we know that they cannot contemplate it? Did they not make the choice to read this thread? If they weren't interested in contemplating it, then why are they reading and participating in this thread?

it is 'right' for them and who are we to say that other people are wrong, they are following their own path, doing what is right for them

Does that mean we shouldn't speak up against discrimination, slavery, child abuse? Since they are 'doing what is right for them'? (As they ask in ethics classes: "Who are we to say that what Hitler did was wrong?") I'm not intending to be difficult here. I'm trying to understand, from the perspective of our shared spiritual foundation, how this all fits in with the concept of free will and honoring others. How are 'other-selves' defined? Is it based on densities? Are 3D entities to be respected but not 2D entities?

my experience on this issue has led me to conclude that there is nothing to be gained from provoking meat eaters to consider the ethics of eating meat. absolutely nothing.

I agree 100%. I have had the same experience and in everyday life I rarely bring up the issue. I never confront people on the meat issue. I never mention it unless they ask me.

But, this is a thread about eating meat.

is it your role in life to provoke people to change their lifestyles?

No, it's not. Do you really think I am provoking people, by discussing the ethics of eating meat, in a thread about eating meat? If so, I find that very disconcerting. I agree that it would be provoking, if this were a thread about some other topic. But it's a thread about eating meat! Are you saying that I am not allowed to voice my own opinions about eating meat in a thread about eating meat? Don't other people have some of the responsibility to decide for themselves whether they want to participate in this thread or not? Can't we allow them that freedom?

I think your concerns would be entirely valid if I were forcing people to think about the animal rights issue in other threads...if I were turning a thread about recipes into a debate about the ethics of eating animals. But I don't understand why it would be inappropriate to ask questions and discuss this issue in a thread about eating meat.

Here's an analogy: Suppose a vegetarian social group posted their meeting on the bulletin board of a natural foods store. The meeting is held in a private room. At the meeting, a few meat-eaters attend, and ask some questions, and start a discussion. Are the vegetarians provoking the meat-eaters by honestly voicing their own opinions?

[Lorna]

sorry monica, i wasn't meaning in respect to this thread, sorry if it came across that i was

i was meaning more generally in life, i agree that those who participate in the veggie debate voluntarily are inviting their point of view, regardless of that point of view, to be up for discussion because it is a divisive topic

i guess what i was thinking of when i wrote that post was you talking about your friend who now asks customers she is serving whether they understand the pain that the fish felt, that just feels, to me, intrusive to the customer being served. does that customer leave the interaction with your friend feeling uplifted, empowered, lighter from their interaction with your friend, or guilty, angry, upset? by having that interaction it's not just asking a question, it's asking a highly emotionally loaded question, for very sincere and heartfelt reasons, but it's still a loaded question

i don't know... i don't seem to be expressing myself very well at the moment. i just sense indignation within you and the reason i posted is that, personally, i haven't found that perspective on this topic to be helpful to me and so i wanted to share my experience.

my sincere apologies if i have misunderstood or caused you upset

[Monica]

sorry monica, i wasn't meaning in respect to this thread, sorry if it came across that i was

OK thank you for that! I took it to mean about this thread, since this thread and the other vegetarian thread are the only places I am discussing it, and because it seemed to be directed at me, with the use of the word 'you.'

i was meaning more generally in life, i agree that those who participate in the veggie debate voluntarily are inviting their point of view, regardless of that point of view, to be up for discussion because it is a divisive topic

In everyday life, I NEVER approach someone about what they are eating. Ever. The only time it comes up is when they offer me meat, in which case I politely decline and say, "No thanks, I'm a vegetarian." Then, IF they ask me why, I tell them. Even then, I don't get graphic. I probably do a lot less for the animals than I should. If anything, I let my apprehension about offending anyone get in the way of championing the animals. In other words, I'm wishy-washy and a disgrace to animal rights activists! I try to be tactful and just say something lame like, "It's for health, ethical, spiritual, and environmental reasons." Then, if the conversation continues, that is, IF they continue to ask me about it, I usually cite statistics about vegetarians living longer and having drastically reduced risk of just about every major disease (cancer, heart disease, diabetes, stroke, obesity, etc.). I focus on what a veggie diet will do FOR THEM, not how it would help animals. I know from experience that people will make dietary changes if it serves themselves, rather than to help the animals.

i guess what i was thinking of when i wrote that post was you talking about your friend who now asks customers she is serving whether they understand the pain that the fish felt, that just feels, to me, intrusive to the customer being served. does that customer leave the interaction with your friend feeling uplifted, empowered, lighter from their interaction with your friend, or guilty, angry, upset? by having that interaction it's not just asking a question, it's asking a highly emotionally loaded question, for very sincere and heartfelt reasons, but it's still a loaded question

I don't know how the customers react because I'm not there. That is her style; it's not my style. But what's wrong with asking a loaded question? Why is feeling guilt to be avoided? Doesn't guilt have a purpose? If we were living 2 centuries ago, and were trying to free the 'slaves' would we care about the 'slaveowner' feeling guilt? Wouldn't guilt be a good thing in that case?

Why is presenting the facts (the slaves are suffering and deserve their freedom/the animals are being tortured) triggering feelings of guilt? If there were nothing to feel guilty about, would they be feeling guilt?

And if the guilt is justified, then aren't we doing them a DISservice by denying them their own feelings of guilt, by walking on eggshells and keeping the facts hidden?

I'm not saying my friend's approach is the best one to use in all circumstances. But if you were to meet her, OMG you would be dazzled! Her light is so bright! She has such a beauty, such an innocent, childlike marveling of all of Life, that is conveyed by her very being! This is a person, who, like our dear fairyfarmgirl, feels the beating of the Earth's heart. She will squeal with delight at the sight of a spider spinning its web...at the dewdrops on the grass...at the song of a bird...She feels such a Oneness with all of Nature and it's conveyed by her eyes, her intense emotions...And this is a person who struggled with the meat issue for 29 years.

I know this because it was she who gave me the book that changed my life...Survival Into the 21st Century: Planetary Healers' Manual by Viktoras Kulvinskas. She gave it to me as a Christmas gift 29 years ago. We both read it and became vegetarians immediately.

But, I stayed a vegetarian and she didn't. She struggled for all these years, on and off vegetarian. Until the last couple of years, when she has had a momentous shift in consciousness. She has changed...in many ways, not just diet. She is a 'green witch' and make anything grow...anything! The plants love her. She can take a tiny cutting and it will become a beautiful plant. She has about 20 cats. Stray cats and dogs know where she lives and tell their friends! She is an advocate for plants and animals, an ally. And now, her body too has changed. She no longer craves meat. She is now repulsed by it. But because of her inner struggle back when she did crave it, she has compassion for those who still do.

So I trust her to uplift those around her on this issue. It is one that is dear to her heart.

I do appreciate your concern. I can see why her approach might sound rather abrasive, which is why I felt compelled to give you more background on this very special person.

i don't know... i don't seem to be expressing myself very well at the moment. i just sense indignation within you and the reason i posted is that, personally, i haven't found that perspective on this topic to be helpful to me and so i wanted to share my experience.

I admit I did feel somewhat hurt and indignant. I had to do some soul-searching and in fact just wrote a long email to the other mods asking them to read these threads and whether I should delete my posts or back out of the discussion. It is NOT my intention to make anyone feel judged! But, like Pablisimo shared, neither do I feel that we must censor ourselves from expressing our views on a thread dedicated to those very views! I think the reason I reacted as I did is that I normally do refrain from voicing my opinion, day in and day out...yes, every single day I see people eat dead animals, and every single day I keep my mouth shut, and I just didn't think I had to do that on a thread about this very topic. Already, I have censored my comments a great deal. I have toned down my true passion to a great degree. I have refrained from posting graphic videos of animal cruelty...which I would surely have posted on other forums (if they were having the same discussion). But I didn't post them here.

I think ALL our views are valuable, including those that are less popular. But the bottom line is that we're not talking about animal suffering in other threads...only in the meat/veg threads.

my sincere apologies if i have misunderstood or caused you upset

Thank you and peace to you!

[Will]

So my regular answer is "habit", or "girls dig it".... I found that if you make it corny and as remote from lofty ideals as possible people tend to back off sooner rather than later without being insulted.

Thats' hilarious Ali! I must admit that it does get a bit tedious explaing to people why I don't eat meat or listening to the commentary on why meat is good for you etc...there are so many more interesting things to talk about, and I don't think about it too much. But I find that it makes some people very uncomfortable if I don't eat meat, and ends up becoming some big deal when really it's not to me. I will definitely try to infuse some humor into my canned responses in the future. The world can always use more humor.

[Monica]

I personally don't consider the Bible authoritative, but those that do might find this interesting:

http://www.atmajyoti.org/ch_four_soul_killers.asp

I think the term 'soul killer' is a bit strong, and I don't agree about the wine, but I find their interpretation of scripture regarding meat very interesting. From the Gnostic Christians.

[thefool]

I'm not intending to be difficult here. I'm trying to understand, from the perspective of our shared spiritual foundation, how this all fits in with the concept of free will and honoring others. How are 'other-selves' defined? Is it based on densities? Are 3D entities to be respected but not 2D entities?

In the context of Law of One, animals and plants are BOTH 2nd density. Humans are 3rd density. Animals are categorized with plants and not human. So comparing human on human (3D interaction) crimes to eating animal meat (3D to 2D interaction) does not hold ground. Then eating plant life would be a problem as well for humans. Higher density typically consumes lower density. It is not about the respect or disrespect of 2D when 3D consumes them. Every being has the spark of one infinite creator...

[Monica]

In the context of Law of One, animals and plants are BOTH 2nd density.

True, but Ra did state that many animals are nearing graduation to 3D, just as humans are nearing graduation to 4D. The criteria for graduation to 3D is sentience. It's indisputable that many animals have sentience.

Humans are 3rd density. Animals are categorized with plants and not human.

If they are nearing graduation to 3D, I would say they are closer to humans than to plants.

So comparing human crimes to eating meat does hold ground.

I gave the comparison in an attempt to convey why animal rights activists vegetarians are so passionate, in an effort to further understanding. I was hoping that if our meat-eating friends could understand that, to us, trying to save an animal is similar to trying to save a human, then perhaps we might have better communication and understanding among those who disagree.

Higher density typically consumes lower density.

What do you mean by this? How do our elders consume us?

[transiten]

Monica

I now adress you directly with some questions. How are the inuite ppl (eskimos) that still are living a traditional lifestyle supposed to survive if they cannot eat fish and seal? If we shall not kill they (and we) cannot wear shoes or clothes of leather or any fur (like sheep) either. Are the inuite on a karmic "lower" level since they choose to incarnate as such?

As for me i prefer a vegetarian diet, but i cannot fathom this dilemma.

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[thefool]

True, but Ra did state that many animals are nearing graduation to 3D, just as humans are nearing graduation to 4D. The criteria for graduation to 3D is sentience. It's indisputable that many animals have sentience.

Correct to certain extent. But we are not talking about a few instances here and there. We are not talking about the many personal pets that are closer to their graduation. As a society humans are still 3D and animals are still 2D.

If they are nearing graduation to 3D, I would say they are closer to humans than to plants.

Again not ALL of the animals are graduating en mass. There are some instances of vested pets. These pets are all well protected and cared for by their owners and no one is talking/even thinking about eating them. In fact vested or no vested all pets are very much loved and not considered food.

Again once you leave those pets out then the rest all animals can be categorized with the plant life as 2 D. In any grouping some are more advanced than others but they still are in the same grade, 2 D.

---

I gave the comparison in an attempt to convey why animal rights activists vegetarians are so passionate, in an effort to further understanding. I was hoping that if our meat-eating friends could understand that, to us, trying to save an animal is similar to trying to save a human, then perhaps we might have better communication and understanding among those who disagree.

I can speak on my behalf, I understand you. Please believe me I do. My whole family is vegetarian. My friends and co-workers think I am a vegetarian as I eat so little meat.

I totally can see how trying to save AN animal can be equivalent to saving a human. But I could always see that. It is not about AN animal but animals as a group. You can save An animal but if you make all animals a protected class then human life would be turned upside down. Do you think if all are vegetarian then the world would be a more spiritual place? Or is it that we all have to become more spiritual in our own lives and it might lead to natural conversion to vegetarian diet.

I guess passion is part of the problem in this debate. The passion cuts through personally and the vegetarians feel not respected for their choices and semi-vegetarians/meat eaters feel attacked and prodded. These passions are so deep rooted that I think regardless of what each side says others would not listen. As the minds have already been made.

---

What do you mean by this? How do our elders consume us?

I was more referring to until 3D. We know that for sure as we can see it. 2D plants and animals consume water, earth (1 D) . 3D humans consume 1 and 2 D.

But I can see how our elders feed off of our energies. The STS elders feed of of negative energies like social unrest and violence and STO elders enjoy our positive energies of harmony and compassion etc.

[Monica]

How are the inuite ppl (eskimos) that still are living a traditional lifestyle supposed to survive if they cannot eat fish and seal? If we shall not kill they (and we) cannot wear shoes or clothes of leather or any fur (like sheep) either.

It's not my place to judge any person or group of people. I can only give my reasons for what I personally consider an ideal and an important part of my own spirituality.

I was born into a typical meat-eating family in a community of ranchers, where killing animals is considered macho. I didn't have to move geographically in order to become a vegetarian like an Eskimo would. I agree it would be impractical for someone living in an Arctic climate to be a vegetarian. But with modern transportation, no one is limited to the place of their birth. If such people chose to become vegetarians, they could move to a place where fresh produce, nuts and seeds are more plentiful. Our ancestors didn't have the options we have today. Today, with modern conveniences and the ability to move, we can choose the lifestyle that is in alignment with our spiritual values.

Are the inuite on a karmic "lower" level since they choose to incarnate as such?

I don't label anyone as being 'lower' than anyone else. It's not our place to judge that. Is a person incarnating into poverty on a 'lower' level than someone incarnating into wealth? No. We all chose the circumstances best suited to our own spiritual growth.

We all have dilemmas and challenges.

[Aaron]

By the way, if anyone's feeling bad about eating plants because they are consuming a form of life... Let's not forget the simple, but sometimes overlooked fact that fruits and vegetables were designed by the plant's intelligence to be consumed. If any more intelligent creature doesn't pluck them and consume them to spread the seeds, the fruit/veggie will be disconnected from the plant and sent to the ground, where the insects and other "lower" creatures could eat it. And if even they don't eat it, even "lower" creatures such as microbes will consume it. Life's tossing a ball of love at Life, and someone's gotta catch it! haha

[Monica]

thefool, first I would like to THANK YOU for being willing to engage in this conversation in a deep way, utilizing and exploring Law of One principles! My intention all along has been not to judge anyone, but to explore this topic in light of the Law of One. Thank you!

Correct to certain extent. But we are not talking about a few instances here and there. We are not talking about the many personal pets that are closer to their graduation. As a society humans are still 3D and animals are still 2D.

If they are nearing graduation to 3D, I would say they are closer to humans than to plants.

Again not ALL of the animals are graduating en mass. There are some instances of vested pets. These pets are all well protected and cared for by their owners and no one is talking/even thinking about eating them.

How do you know it's only a 'few instances here and there?' Just because Ra pointed out Carla's cat doesn't mean that there might not be many, maybe even most, cats and dogs ready for graduation. And it also doesn't mean that there might not be many cows, pigs, and other animals nearing graduation. Ask any child who has raised a pig or calf for 4-H. They will tell you that the pig/calf was very intelligent, and in some cases became a pet, and how hard it was to surrender that animal to the slaughter. (Which of course serves to harden the child towards ranching and hunting in the future.)

I once had a friend who raised potbelly pigs for sale as pets. She educated me on just how intelligent pigs are...how much personality they have, if given the chance to show it. I met her pigs and they acted like dogs in some ways...very mischievious.

Ask any horse-lover whether their horse has any personality. Of course they do! Physiologically, horses aren't all that different from cows. The only reason humans got in the habit of eating cows instead of horses is that horses had other uses - they were more valuable as transportation. Now that we no longer need horses for transportation, they have become pets and are used for sport. But the stigma against eating horses has prevailed because it was so deeply ingrained. In the US, people are shocked and outraged when they hear of old racehorses being used in dog food. Yet, in other countries, it is common to eat horses. They even eat dogs and cats, no big deal. In the US, there is a distinction between eating pets and eating animals deemed worthless for anything but food. Dogs, cats and horses are elevated above cows and pigs. But not so in other countries, where they are all eaten. All of those animals have the potential to have their personality drawn out by a loving human.

The fact that some incarnated as cats and dogs, living a protected, sheltered life, while others incarnate as wild, starving, feral alleycats, could be likened to the fact that some humans incarnate into a loving family, whereas other humans incarnate into poverty, hunger, or violence. Is the rich, pampered human whose parents pay for their college any more harvestable to 4D than the poor, starving child in a war-torn country?

Likewise, is the pampered poodle any more harvestable to 3D than the calf born on a factory farm?

How can we really know that? To me, the parallels seems obvious. I don't think we can just lump ALL animals into 2D. There are gradations of 2D, just as there are gradations of 3D. The evolutionary process of 2D is very, very long. I don't recall the number but it was long.

The way I understand it, the beings at the lower end of 2D have a group consciousness. A single lettuce plant doesn't have an individual consciousness. When you cut some of its leaves, it continues to thrive. When a lettuce plant dies, its spirit merges back with the lettuce oversoul. Same with a blade of grass. I don't think anything is dying when we mow our lawn. I don't think the grass is suffering. Look around at plant life and you'll see that it's everywhere. I think of plant life as the hair on my head - an extension of Earth, like the hair on Gaia's head.

The way I understand it, a bit further up the evolutionary spiral are the wild animals, who operate purely on instinct. A deer in the forest might not have much sentience yet, so when its spirit dies, it too is merged back into the oversoul of the deer population. But it has chosen a body in which sentience might develop. It has the capacity. I remember Ra mentioning that, when they designed our 3D vehicles, they had to choose bodies that could accommodate our intellects and spiritual capacity. As with a computer, the hardware has to be able to accommodate the software! You can't load Windows Vista onto an old PC/XT computer from the 1980s! Likewise, it is reasonable to me that the capacity for sentience cannot be accommodated by a plant body, except for trees which live many centuries. But a tree clearly has individual characteristics. Each tree is unique, and trees are in the position to observe generations of lifeforms come and go. People even develop fondness for trees. They remember the tree that they used to climb as a child...that tree might provide enjoyment to generations of children, or home to generations of animals. I can see how trees might have more opportunity to develop sentience than a lettuce plant which lives only a few months.

Given the right circumstances, that deer can develop sentience. So too can any wild animals. We all know of people who have raised animals from the wild. In most cases they will swear that the animals loves them! In some cases, they underestimate the power of the wildness still in the animal's genetic makeup, and end up releasing the animal into the wild. But surely that animal benefited from being raised by a human and treated like a pet! Perhaps one lifetime of being with humans and having its sentience drawn out isn't enough to be ready for graduation, but the animal is now on its way and can never return to the pool of consciusness that is the group oversoul.

A wild deer's soul might be poured back into the group oversoul like a cup of water being poured into the ocean. But once it has begun to awaken to its individuality, its little soul begins its own evolutionary journey, and will remain an individual. It might choose to incarnate as an alley cat next lifetime, who then gets adopted by a human and pampered as a pet.

I have adopted many, many stray cats. They are just as sentient as any other cat. Just as a child born into poverty can go on to graduate from college, if given the chance.

In fact vested or no vested all pets are very much loved and not considered food.

What do you mean by 'vested'?

Not all pets are very much loved. There is an in-between here. Many 'pets' are neglected and abused. We all know of people who leave their dogs chained outside in the cold, who beat them, who think of them as nothing more than property.

To me, my dogs and cats are part of my family. But I've known people who consider their animals to be 'things' rather than entities. In these cases, it was because of their religious beliefs - the biblical passage about 'taking dominion over the Earth' was interpreted by them to mean that animals are here for us to use as we wish. This is a wide chasm between fundamentalist Christianity and those who see humans as part of a larger living organism, and seek to harmonize with the rest of the planet rather than dominate it.

Again once you leave those pets out then the rest all animals can be categorized with the plant life as 2 D. In any grouping some are more advanced than others but they still are in the same grade, 2 D.

You are choosing to focus on the bigger demarcation - the 2D grade - while I am choosing to focus on the gradations in between.

Have you ever known anyone with a pet parrot? Have you ever seen a documentary on parrots? They are extremely intelligent! Their humans will tell you they are as intelligent as any dog or cat.

I recently saw a documentary about animals in the wild who have been captured on camera playing tricks on one another...such as tricking the rest of the animals into thinking there was a predator, in order to get first dibs on the food. This is found in various species.

There is a vast amount of richness in those gradations of 2D.

But, even IF this were a black-and-white issue of 2D vs 3D, why does that make it ok to torture and kill an animal who has the capacity to feel pain, and the capacity to choose to run from its abuser? Why is the 2D/3D the demarcation? In other words, why is it ok to kill some 2D animals (cows and chickens) but not others (dogs and cats). Isn't that all rather arbitrary?

Why not have the demarcation be whether the entity has the capacity to feel pain, instead of a judgment about how evolved they are spiritually? We know all animals have a nervous system which registers pain. We know they will flee from their attacker if they can. We know that they bleed, wail and shriek in pain, and display other signs indicating that they are feeling pain. It may be argued that plants feel pain too, but there is a great deal of speculation as to what that really means. Did the plants in the experiment lean away from the researcher because its leaf was getting torn off, or was it because it didn't appreciate being used in an experiment? Would that same plant lean away if someone approached it with joy and appreciation at tearing off some leaves for a salad?

There are unknowns with plants. When we are 4D, we might not need to eat plants either. But for now, we have a choice between killing something we KNOW feels pain, vs harvesting something whose perception of pain is questionable.

Likewise, we KNOW a human, whether raised in poverty or abundance, is sentient. We don't know for sure that the cow isn't sentient. Which means it might be sentient. I would rather not take the chance that the animal might be sentient.

I invite everyone to consider this: The tendency to label animals as '2D' and thus not worthy of living their own lives is a justification...an attempt to rob the animal of its beingness, akin to a 'slaveowner' dehumanizing the 'slaves' so he thinks it's ok. "Oh that is not a person...it's just an animal...so it's ok for me to use him as a slave, beat him, own him."

I can speak on my behalf, I understand you. Please believe me I do. My whole family is vegetarian. My friends and co-workers think I am a vegetarian as I eat so little meat.

Thank you for your understanding! And I commend you for eating so little meat. If each person at least cut back on meat, the suffering would be reduced, people would be healthier (resulting in a better economy with less medical costs), and our planet would be less polluted.

I totally can see how trying to save AN animal can be equivalent to saving a human. But I could always see that. It is not about AN animal but animals as a group. You can save An animal but if you make all animals a protected class then human life would be turned upside down.

What's wrong with that? Isn't that what evolution is all about? Didn't the world get turned upside down when cars were invented and blacksmiths had to find different work? People can adapt. The benefits to all would be well worth it!

Do you think if all are vegetarian then the world would be a more spiritual place?

Yes

Or is it that we all have to become more spiritual in our own lives and it might lead to natural conversion to vegetarian diet.

Both. It can happen either way. But not everyone thought slavery was bad when slavery was ended in the US. More than a century later, there are still racist bigots who would treat minorities as slaves if they could. And slavery still goes on, behind the scenes. Yet, enough people raised their awareness about slavery to make it illegal. I envision this happening with the meat industry someday, and I am trying to do my part to raise awareness so that it can happen. It might not happen because of awareness about animal suffering. It might happen because, as the world becomes more and more polluted, and health statistics continue to prove the superior health of vegetarians, the world may have to move towards a predominately vegetarian diet in order to sustain life. It's much more efficient to raise crops for human consumption than to feed livestock. The Earth can sustain a much larger population on a predominately vegetarian diet.

I guess passion is part of the problem in this debate. The passion cuts through personally and the vegetarians feel not respected for their choices and semi-vegetarians/meat eaters feel attacked and prodded. These passions are so deep rooted that I think regardless of what each side says others would not listen. As the minds have already been made.

Yes, it's a volatile topic! But I have faith in the love of everyone here at B4 to be able to discuss this respectfully and with sensitivity. We've done it before with other volatile topics! And I would disagree that everyone's mind is already made up. We have no idea how many people might be reading this, lurking, and benefiting from both sides of the discussion.

What do you mean by this? How do our elders consume us?

I was more referring to until 3D. We know that for sure as we can see it. 2D plants and animals consume water, earth (1 D) . 3D humans consume 1 and 2 D.

OK. I don't see how that justifies continuing that pattern, as we approach 4D. Violence is rampant in 3D, but aren't we reaching for something higher than that?

But I can see how our elders feed off of our energies. The STS elders feed of of negative energies like social unrest and violence and STO elders enjoy our positive energies of harmony and compassion etc.

Hmmmm...I can see it in the STS model but that seems like a bit of a stretch when applied to STO. But ok.

Again, thank you for being willing to discuss this from a Law of One perspective! I appreciate it!

[transiten]

Hi Monica

The vegan movement is rather strong in Sweden and many young don't wear leathershoes and jackets. What kind of clothes do you wear in this respect? Or could one wait until the animals die a natural death? Some "orthodox" animal activits don't think it's OK to keep animals for milk and egg either. I don't know what they think about sheep and wool...must be difficult to stay in the Nordic countries...

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[Monica]

I do not think vegetarianism is a 'preferred' lifestyle, but in reading the LOO material as relates to food, as entities progress through densities it seems that one's perspective on and relationship to food changes:

Questioner: Is it necessary to eat food in fourth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

Questioner: The mechanism of, shall we say, social catalyst due to a necessity for feeding the body then is active in fourth-density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The fourth-density being desires to serve and the preparation of foodstuffs is extremely simple due to increased communion between entity and living foodstuff. Therefore, this is not a significant catalyst but rather a simple precondition of the space/time experience. The catalyst involved is the necessity for the ingestion of foodstuffs. This is not considered to be of importance by fourth-density entities and it, therefore, aids in the teach/learning of patience.

Wow, there it is, right there!!! Living foodstuff!


I knew intuitively, when I read the Essene Gospel of Peace and Survival into the 21st Century nearly 30 years ago (before I'd read the Law of One), that raw, living, vegan foods were the foods of higher consciousness. It just made perfect sense to me. This quote by Ra confirms it in my mind.

Notice that Ra did not say being a vegetarian was a prerequisite for graduation to 4D! So it's not appropriate to have a 'holier than thou' attitude if we are vegetarians. The way I see it, this is an ideal to aspire to. But Ra did make it clear that the food of 4D is living food.

How could this include meat, then? It can't. It must mean plant food. I invite everyone to investigate the raw vegan lifestyle. It's a movement, and it's gaining momentum. Why are these pioneers promoting this diet? Could it be that they are paving the way for us to become acquainted with the 4D diet?

Questioner: Could you expand a little bit on how that aids in the teach/learning of patience?

Ra: I am Ra. To stop the functioning of service-to-others long enough to ingest foodstuffs is to invoke patience.

Questioner: I’m guessing that it is not necessary to ingest foodstuffs in fifth-density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. However, the vehicle needs food which may be prepared by thought.

Questioner: What type of food would this be?

Ra: I am Ra. You would call this type of food, nectar or ambrosia, or a light broth of golden white hue.

Questioner: What is the purpose of ingesting food in fifth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is a somewhat central point. The purpose of space/time is the increase in catalytic action appropriate to the density. One of the preconditions for space/time existence is some form of body complex. Such a body complex must be fueled in some way.

Questioner: In third density the fueling of our bodily complex is not only simply fueling of the bodily complex but gives us opportunities to learn service. In fourth density it not only fuels the complex but gives us opportunities to learn patience. In fifth density it fuels the complex but does it teach?

Ra: I am Ra. In fifth density it is comfort for those of like mind gathered together to share in this broth, thus becoming one in light and wisdom while joining hearts and hands in physical activity. Thus in this density it becomes a solace rather than a catalyst for learning.

Questioner: I am simply trying to trace the evolution of this catalyst that then, as you say, changes in fifth density. I might as well complete this and ask if there is any ingestion of food in sixth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. However, the nature of this food is that of light and is impossible to describe to you in any meaningful way as regards the thrust of your query.

So I wonder if vegetarianism/veganism/et. al. are offered as experiences in terms of entities recognizing (possibly both consciously and unconsciously at the same time) this shift in perspective on and relationship to food as earth moves into 4th density.

Jason

Jason, I think that's very perceptive. Let's look at the quotes you just provided. Ra states that the food of 4D is living, and the food of 6D is light based. That sounds like a logical progression. In light of that, gravitating towards more plant-based foods makes sense to me, as part of one's spiritual path, and founded on Law of One principles.

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The vegan movement is rather strong in Sweden and many young don't wear leathershoes and jackets. What kind of clothes do you wear in this respect?

Leather is a by-product of the meat industry, so I consider it more important to try to get to the root of the issue - meat. If people quit eating meat, there will be less leather as a result. Nevertheless, I avoid leather. There are now many alternatives to leather. When I first became a vegetarian, it was virtually impossible to find any decent shoes that weren't leather, but the selection has gotten much better now. I do still have some leather shoes and purses which have been in my closet for many years. Those cows are long dead. But when I buy something new, I look for non-leather alternatives. Finding good non-leather shoes can be challenging, but much easier now with the internet. It's easy to find good non-leather purses and jackets.

I consider fur to be worse than leather, since those animals are killed specifically for their fur, rather than it being a by-product. And, fur coats are usually luxury items, so I see absolutely no justification for wearing fur coats. Modern apparel made of synthetics are warmer and less expensive than fur.

Or could one wait until the animals die a natural death?

I wouldn't have a problem with that, but that doesn't sound very practical. I don't have all the answers. Modern society that depends so much on factory farming has disrupted the natural balance. It will take some strategy to restore the balance once people quit eating animals. But I don't see that happening overnight, so hopefully solutions will manifest as the changes are made.

I don't have any issues with eggs, milk, and wool products if the animals are allowed the freedom to live normal lives, and aren't killed or injected with hormones or other drugs. Same with honey: There is a vast difference between local beekeepers who love and respect their bees, vs the commercial bee colonies. I once had a very long conversation with a local beekeeper who told me that the small beekeepers don't have any problems with disappearing bees, but that it was the commercial beekeepers who were losing their bees. I found that very interesting.

Admittedly, I'm not a purist. Some of my vegan friends would be judgmental towards me for not being 100% vegan. But most vegetarians/vegans I know all agree that avoiding meat is the most important thing. We can all agree on that, and some choose to take it further and avoid all animal products completely. That is actually impossible to do, though, since animal by-products are used in many things, such as car tires.

[Ali Quadir]

Thats' hilarious Ali! I must admit that it does get a bit tedious explaing to people why I don't eat meat or listening to the commentary on why meat is good for you etc...there are so many more interesting things to talk about, and I don't think about it too much.

Glad to be of service All you came to do was eat. Now you're eating with your meal company going on auto pilot across a road you've probably seen hundreds of times. I know that feeling.

But I find that it makes some people very uncomfortable if I don't eat meat, and ends up becoming some big deal when really it's not to me.

Thats the root of the problem for me too. Maybe many meat eaters experience a slight tinge of guilt. When a vegetarian comes around that guilt is triggered. Or the opposite response, the "meatlust"! Especially if the veggie goes all holier than thou on everyone. Which is likely to happen if people start being difficult about it.