In regards to eating meat

[3DMonkey]

Interesting. Very interesting. This explains my exact imposition I'm feeling.

40.14 Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?
Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products. These are those substances showing respect for the self. In addition, though this has not been mentioned for this instrument is not in need of purification, those entities in need of purging the self of a poison thought-form or emotion complex do well to take care in following a program of careful fasting until the destructive thought-form has been purged analogously with the by-products of ridding the physical vehicle of excess material. Again you see the value not to the body complex but used as a link for the mind and spirit. Thus self reveals self to self.

Astonishing.

[Monica]

a program of careful fasting until the destructive thought-form has been purged analogously with the by-products of ridding the physical vehicle of excess material

I've done a lot of fasting over the years. Usually juice fasting (freshly juiced fruit and veggie juices) along with supergreen powders. On a physiological level, juice fasting is actually more detoxifying than fasting on water alone, and it's not debilitating as water fasting can be. (Since most of us still have to function at work, etc. that has to be taken into consideration.)

I've found juice fasting to be absolutely exhilarating!

For tips and inspiration on fasting/cleansing, I highly recommend the videos by liferegenerator on youtube. He's a bit of a hippie and a really cool guy. Note: He has a lot of videos on raw vegan liveit which are too radical even for me; I prefer the fancy, gourmet raw vegan dishes. He just tosses some cucumbers and tomatoes and calls it lunch. However, his videos on fasting/cleansing are very good.

During the fast, one's head get clear as the toxins leave the body, and a sort of high ensues. Spiritual clarity...high energy...it's awesome!

Once you get past the first 2 days.

[3DMonkey]

Thank you for the info. Fasting isn't new to me, and I have gone phases where I cut meat out for a month. I've done juicing and all that.

The new thing for me is that I find myself drawn to this rather than the old ego driven reasons of my past. I'm "here" more than before.

I'll certainly look into it for education purposes. Right now, all I know is I'm only craving fruit, veggies, beens. Apples, oranges, bananas... Black beans, corn, cilantro, and lime juice :-)

[Monica]

Thank you for the info. Fasting isn't new to me, and I have gone phases where I cut meat out for a month. I've done juicing and all that.

The new thing for me is that I find myself drawn to this rather than the old ego driven reasons of my past. I'm "here" more than before.

I'll certainly look into it for education purposes. Right now, all I know is I'm only craving fruit, veggies, beens. Apples, oranges, bananas... Black beans, corn, cilantro, and lime juice :-)

Cool! I see that happening a lot, even with diehard meat-eaters. Seems to be a shift happening.

Even with my dogs and cats! I remember as a child, whenever my dad would butcher chickens, the cats would go crazy over the raw meat.

And 20 years ago, I'd often find a few feathers or a mouse's tail on the front porch. The outdoor cats were always hunting and eating their prey. (There's an empty lot next door so there are plenty of mice in our area.)

But now, my outdoor cats will catch a mouse, kill it, and leave it untouched. (Quite a shame! The mouse died for nothing. It always bothers me. I wish they'd at least eat it, if they're going to kill it.) And recently, we had some mice in the house. The cats caught them, but wouldn't eat them. I managed to rescue 1 of them and released it down the street where there are no houses. But the other was killed the cats before I could rescue it. Then they left it.

Then there are my dogs. Years ago, I tried giving them raw meat, because that is what their natural diet is in the wild. They just couldn't get enough of it!

I quit giving it to them for 2 reasons:

1. I couldn't stand to handle it.

2. It made them aggressive.

But recently, I found some raw, frozen, meat-based dog food at an upscale pet store. I got some for my elderly dog. I was willing to deal with the raw meat if it helped him stay alive and healthy a bit longer. I never agreed with the vegetarians who fed their dogs vegetarian food, because, I rationalized, they have the anatomy of carnivores. Just look at their teeth!

Well, guess what! My elderly dog ate the raw meat a couple of times, but then after that, he turned his nose up at it! So here I had this expensive stuff in my freezer, and he wouldn't eat it. So I offered it to the other dogs. One of them devoured it for about a week, but again, after than he started refusing it. The other dog started refusing it after only a couple of days.

What am I to make of this?

I can only conclude that, as these dogs near the threshold of 3D, they are losing their natural animal craving for other dead animals. They are becoming human. Most humans won't tear into a bloody chicken. They must cook it, season it, and otherwise disguise the fact that it's a chicken, in order to eat it.

Right around the time this all happened, I got a book on raw vegan liveit, by author Ani Phyo. She adopted a stray dog who was skin and bones. She feeds this dog the same diet she eats - raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds! How mind-blowing is that!!! I never imagined that a 'carnivorous' animal could not only survive, but thrive on a raw vegan diet! Her beautiful, vibrantly healthy dog is living proof! He not only is healthy but people stop and ask her what she's feeding him, because his coat is so silky and his eyes so bright. Amazing!

There is no question that a dog's anatomy is designed for meat. And yet, look at what Ani has accomplished with this dog.

[3DMonkey]

Good!

Don't discount your own vibrations which, I'm sure, your beloved pets are happily resonating with. Your love/light is the tune they are readjusting their song too.

---

Also, I see dogs as built to live on anything. Anything! Feces is a "treat" to them.

[kanonathena]

What about the people who don't need to eat anything at all to survive (like yoga masters), where did they get all the nutrients? Is it because they can harness energy in space and transform into nutrients?

[Monica]

What about the people who don't need to eat anything at all to survive (like yoga masters), where did they get all the nutrients? Is it because they can harness energy in space and transform into nutrients?

Legends abound of such masters, who absorb nutrients from the Sun. They're basically doing what the plants are doing: getting the nutrients directly. A tree has way more matter than could be accounted for, from just the seed, water, and the soil it grew in.

I don't know of any documented cases of Breatharians in the present time, but I don't doubt that there are some who are legit (rather than making claims but sneaking food, as some have been found to do).

Those who follow a raw vegan liveit, with lots of wild weeds and SunLight, need less food.

[Unbound]

Ra states that the first and second dimensions function pretty much automatically, even though animals are indeed intelligent and conscious wouldn't this also suggest that those in charge of "deciding" what their life will be for are aware of their most likely path given the planetary conditions? I'm not saying that things couldn't be more humane, and that there is an overindulgence of meat, however I think that the idea of eating flesh isn't necessarily STS in nature. Do not the animals also gain in positive polarity by their sacrifice and thus also have the possibility of increased spiritual growth? My argument here is not a "this or that" sort of thing, but to present the idea that everything is a relationship. In whatever way a human "negatively" takes from an animal, it should be positively restored to the animal in spirit, this would seem to me the way karma works. It is not just with particular deeds but with absolutely every action. In short, negativity is much of an illusion.

---

What about the people who don't need to eat anything at all to survive (like yoga masters), where did they get all the nutrients? Is it because they can harness energy in space and transform into nutrients?

In one of the Gnostic teachings I learned it seems they are able to transform the energy of Impressions in to usuable energy for the body and have also maximized their capacity to gain and transmute energy from the breath. Food, being third dimensional, is one of the lower grades of energy we can use to energize. Impressions being that which spirals in to the solar plexus, the emotional/feeling center of experience. They stated that the "ego"s which plague many are indigested Impressions we have recieved over time, and the masters have both dissolved and learned to transmute this raw energy in to "finer" qualitive energy.

Of course, this is just one explanation I have seen.

[Monica]

Ra states that the first and second dimensions function pretty much automatically, even though animals are indeed intelligent and conscious wouldn't this also suggest that those in charge of "deciding" what their life will be for are aware of their most likely path given the planetary conditions?

Ultimately, yes, in the same way that the Higher Self of a 3D human murder victim is aware of planetary conditions and the results of that particular lifetime.

That doesn't justify murdering someone.

Murder/rape/war etc. all happen here on this planet. Hopefully, evolution does ultimately take place (though perhaps despite those conditions, rather than because of, in some cases).

My points in this discussion revolve around the question of whether we, as entities who have consciously chosen the STO path, can justify our participation in the slaughter of animals.

I'm not saying that things couldn't be more humane, and that there is an overindulgence of meat, however I think that the idea of eating flesh isn't necessarily STS in nature.

This precise point was discussed at length in this thread.

Do not the animals also gain in positive polarity by their sacrifice and thus also have the possibility of increased spiritual growth?

Given that the main objective for 2D entities is to become self-aware, there is no doubt that experiencing extreme pain and terror might help facilitate that.

However, it seems to me that that is a horrible way to become self-aware, and it sets the stage for many future lifetimes. An entity who became self-aware in such a way might be much more inclined to accept violence as a 3D entity, or may even be more attracted to the STS path.

The logic behind this is based on what we know of children who were horribly abused and then grow up to be hardened criminals.

My argument here is not a "this or that" sort of thing, but to present the idea that everything is a relationship. In whatever way a human "negatively" takes from an animal, it should be positively restored to the animal in spirit,

Perhaps so, in the way that the Native Americans did it...they thanked the animal as its lifeforce departed its body.

However, I don't see how any exchange can possibly take place, when meat is purchased from a store. That animal died weeks ago, alone and in pain and terror. No one helped that animal make his transition. His soul is long gone by the time a human eats his body.

Neither do I see any positive exchange taking place when a hunter kills a deer in the forest, and boasts about his trophy.

this would seem to me the way karma works. It is not just with particular deeds but with absolutely every action. In short, negativity is much of an illusion.

In the Law of One, negativity isn't an illusion. It is a valid path.

Our 3D reality is an illusion, and 3D entities dwell in it for the purpose of choosing either the STO or STS path.

[Unbound]

I think you misinterpret me a little bit, I understand your position but I will argue that it is entirely relative to your own personal empathetic feelings towards pain and suffering. Also, an animal is no more alone than any of us are at any point, there are always helping and guiding entities to assist whenever necessary. Also the ever present One. As you said, our 3D reality is an illusion, which means that the experiential stimili are also illusory in nature, they are only effects of much "higher" causes.

You imagine yourself as the animal and decide that that sort of condition would be undesirable for you based on the experience of pain. However, that is largely due to your own distortion towards the idea that pain is negative in nature. Pain and pleasure are just effects, just stimuli that are neither negative or positive in themselves, impulses. Consider that it is not the death that is important but the use of the energy. If the meat from an animal is consumed by a human then ultimately would not the polarization depend on what the human used that obtained energy for? Also, animals die to feed regardless of whether or not it is by natural aging, disease or otherwise. They still go to feed bacteria, fungus, flies and all the myriads of decompositional creatures that inhabit our world. There are still predators in the wild, and humans distinctly possess canines and incisors as well as flat teeth, which I think is strong evidence for omnivorous nature.

You speak of the Law of One as though it is separate from experience, yet you are arguing something that is nothing more than a perspective, can you deny my experience under the Law of One? Loyalty to the Confederation's teachings should not be confused with the scope of the One. It is intention that creates polarization, not just actions, actions are just the effects of intentions. Perhaps those whom slaughter receive negative polarization, but if I eat meat bought at a store with the intention to positively utilize its energy and proteins will that not be something of gratitude and appreciation for the sacrifice, volunteery or not, of the animal?

Also, to my understanding service to others and service to self all still serve the self. Both are mutual, just a difference in focus, internal vs external. You help others to help the self, and those who help themselves help others, this is a point I believe Ra has been specific on. Of course, what exactly is the purpose of choosing either an STO or STS path? Where is the distinction truly drawn? Does it matter what you do, how you feel, what you intend or what you think? The images of each path must also be separated, service to self implies enslavement and self worship, yet we have all accepted the distortion of the bodily's complex need to eat and be nourished, and also that our systems can digest both plant and animal matter. Also, what about eggs? Is fruit not the eggs of the plants? It seems to me that there is an overidentification with the concept of pain and suffering being solely of negative polarization.

Consider, service to self, service to others, one to command and one to serve, one to direct and one to be directed. The Confederation pushes the idea of service-to-others, the words of masters making willing slaves? Difficult to say.

[Monica]

I think you misinterpret me a little bit,

And you me.

You seem to be making the point that there might be value for the animal. I am not disputing that, in the long run, there might be value. But my point is, and has been throughout this entire thread, that knowingly participating in the pain of others is incongruent with the STO path.

I understand your position but I will argue that it is entirely relative to your own personal empathetic feelings towards pain and suffering.

Empathy is an important cornerstone of the STO path.

Further, it's not just about my personal opinion, but whether such actions (participating in slaughter of 2D entities) are congruent with the STO path. That has largely been the focus of this thread.

Also, an animal is no more alone than any of us are at any point, there are always helping and guiding entities to assist whenever necessary. Also the ever present One. As you said, our 3D reality is an illusion, which means that the experiential stimili are also illusory in nature, they are only effects of much "higher" causes.

Respectfully, I disagree. The illusion facilitates catalyst. However, our response to that catalyst, and the ensuing spiritual evolution, are not illusory.

You imagine yourself as the animal and decide that that sort of condition would be undesirable for you based on the experience of pain. However, that is largely due to your own distortion towards the idea that pain is negative in nature. Pain and pleasure are just effects, just stimuli that are neither negative or positive in themselves, impulses.

That is easy to say in an intellectual discussion. But try telling that to one who is experiencing extreme suffering. They might disagree.

Consider that it is not the death that is important but the use of the energy.

Would you use that same argument to justify killing a human?

If the meat from an animal is consumed by a human then ultimately would not the polarization depend on what the human used that obtained energy for?

I don't see any connection there. So I'd have to say no.

Also, animals die to feed regardless of whether or not it is by natural aging, disease or otherwise. They still go to feed bacteria, fungus, flies and all the myriads of decompositional creatures that inhabit our world.

Humans engage in extreme acts of violence: wars etc. That doesn't mean it's ok for us to participate.

There are still predators in the wild,

Those are 2D entities. We are 3D+. What is appropriate for a 2D entity cannot be assumed to be appropriate for a positively polarized 3D+ entity.

In addition, the idea that this planet is barbaric compared to other planets, has been explored in other threads. Some members, myself included, are of the opinion that the very design itself (predatory wildlife) inflicts unnecessary suffering, and we intend to report back our opinions about this.

and humans distinctly possess canines and incisors as well as flat teeth, which I think is strong evidence for omnivorous nature.

We don't have sharp fangs like dogs and cats do. Very few humans could stomach the idea of tearing into a bloody chicken, as dogs and cats love to do.

But this and many other points have already been hotly debated in this very thread. So, rather than repeat myself here, I invite you to read this thread in its entirety. Please feel free to respond to any posts as you traverse the thread. That would be more efficient than me recounting points already made previously. Thanks!

You speak of the Law of One as though it is separate from experience, yet you are arguing something that is nothing more than a perspective,

I consider the Law of One far more than merely a perspective. However, each of us can only offer our own interpretation of the Law of One.

can you deny my experience under the Law of One?

No. I apologize if I, in any way, inadvertently implied that your perspective isn't valid. It is just as valid as anyone else's. We each offer our own perspective.

This forum is based on the study of the Law of One, so naturally any discussion will refer to it to back up points made.

Loyalty to the Confederation's teachings should not be confused with the scope of the One.

Our members have varying degrees of loyalty to Confederation teachings. For some, it is their spiritual foundation. For others, it is one among many spiritual influences.

It is intention that creates polarization, not just actions, actions are just the effects of intentions.

Agreed.

Perhaps those whom slaughter receive negative polarization, but if I eat meat bought at a store with the intention to positively utilize its energy and proteins will that not be something of gratitude and appreciation for the sacrifice, volunteery or not, of the animal?

Surely having gratitude is preferable to not having gratitude. And most people who purchase meat from the store make very little connection to the animals that were slaughtered and turned into that meat.

But, once a person's eyes have been opened to the extreme cruelty that is occurring on a daily basis to billions of our younger brethren on a daily basis, they share in the responsibility of that suffering.

My opinion is that the person buying the meat from the store, once s/he is aware, is every bit as culpable as the butcher.

Also, to my understanding service to others and service to self all still serve the self.

As you read the books, the distinguishing characteristics of the 2 paths will be explored.

Both are mutual, just a difference in focus, internal vs external. You help others to help the self, and those who help themselves help others, this is a point I believe Ra has been specific on. Of course, what exactly is the purpose of choosing either an STO or STS path? Where is the distinction truly drawn? Does it matter what you do, how you feel, what you intend or what you think? The images of each path must also be separated, service to self implies enslavement and self worship,

Please feel free to start anther thread on these topics if you wish!

yet we have all accepted the distortion of the bodily's complex need to eat and be nourished, and also that our systems can digest both plant and animal matter.

Ah, but not with equal efficiency. Virtually all major diseases have been shown to have correlations with animal 'foods' whereas plant-based diets facilitate healing and superior health. That could be a clue!

Also, what about eggs? Is fruit not the eggs of the plants?

Those questions have been extensively explored previously in this thread. Thank you for your understanding that I'd rather not repeat many pages of discussion.

It seems to me that there is an overidentification with the concept of pain and suffering being solely of negative polarization.

To clarify: It is the causing, the inflicting, of pain and suffering upon others that is negatively polarizing.

Consider, service to self, service to others, one to command and one to serve, one to direct and one to be directed. The Confederation pushes the idea of service-to-others, the words of masters making willing slaves? Difficult to say.

Respectfully, I don't think this is an accurate assessment of the paths; nor of the Confederation's intentions/actions.

[Unbound]

Eh heh, just testing the waters!

[3DMonkey]

@azrael, one thing, sts is both the controller and the controlled. STO is outside of this realm.

...
@Monica, you know where I am at on my journey. I would like to know where you stand on inflicting pain on plants. Seriously. Because I feel the same compassion for uprooting and killing a plant as I do killing a deer.

Like I said though, it is what is in my spirit that I try to follow. Somehow, at this moment, I "feel" the addition of animal cell material to my mind/body/spirit is unbeneficial. (non?)

I am thinking that only eating the fruits and nuts that naturally fall from a plant would be the only "kind" method for eating. This would include eggs and milk, IMO. On that note, wouldn't we benefit from human breast milk? We might just bottle that up and all our problems would be solved

[unity100]

Also, an animal is no more alone than any of us are at any point, there are always helping and guiding entities to assist whenever necessary.

no such information was given in Ra material. only 3d entities have 3 guides present with them at any given point.

As you said, our 3D reality is an illusion, which means that the experiential stimili are also illusory in nature, they are only effects of much "higher" causes.

then, positive and negative polarities, and all the stuff that is experienced in 3d would be dubbed 'illusions', and therefore everything would totally become invalid and unimportant due to that.

in addition, all densities reflect a certain property of creation, we are told. no density is an 'illusion'. since all entities are created with the same blueprint that repeats from the first initial logos to the entities in earlier octaves, no density has different 'illusory' level than the other. they are all valid and building blocks of whatever is in higher densities.

You imagine yourself as the animal and decide that that sort of condition would be undesirable for you based on the experience of pain. However, that is largely due to your own distortion towards the idea that pain is negative in nature.

it is quite normal, since as we are told, most of 2d bodies are capable of 3d existence, and this is the way how 3d is conducted in general. for a general body format, only for 4d a definition of 'bipedal hominoid' is given. and in addition, only 3-4% of (if im not mistaken in exact number) the body types in use in 3d was told to resemble anything we could recognize. this means, 3d bodies greatly vary and they are direct descendants of higher 2d bodies.

conclusion of this - a 3d entity perfectly knows, and remembers what physical pain is, and the reasons to avoid it. because, a 3d body is almost a 2d body, in practicality. the difference (particularly in this planet) is, the ability to manipulate objects and environment is much heightened.

If the meat from an animal is consumed by a human then ultimately would not the polarization depend on what the human used that obtained energy for?

such a logic would have to be applicable elsewhere :

"if the end result is good, the means do not matter much"

meaning, you can justify anything as long as the end result is good. gandalf in lord of the rings, gives a perfect response for this, to saruman, when he utters same philosophy.

no - means matter. even if the end aim is perfectly pure, it will be affected and changed by the means used to achieve it.

Also, animals die to feed regardless of whether or not it is by natural aging, disease or otherwise. They still go to feed bacteria, fungus, flies and all the myriads of decompositional creatures that inhabit our world. There are still predators in the wild, and humans distinctly possess canines and incisors as well as flat teeth, which I think is strong evidence for omnivorous nature.

you can also use tools to kill people, steal their belongings, or outright evaporate a city by detonating a nuclear device.

however, being capable of, doesnt mean that you should be doing those.

You speak of the Law of One as though it is separate from experience, yet you are arguing something that is nothing more than a perspective, can you deny my experience under the Law of One? Loyalty to the Confederation's teachings should not be confused with the scope of the One. It is intention that creates polarization, not just actions, actions are just the effects of intentions. Perhaps those whom slaughter receive negative polarization, but if I eat meat bought at a store with the intention to positively utilize its energy and proteins will that not be something of gratitude and appreciation for the sacrifice, volunteery or not, of the animal?

then, with your logic, someone can easily claim that they are enslaving people, in order to guide and herd them through the densities, and it would be all valid and positive.

Also, to my understanding service to others and service to self all still serve the self. Both are mutual, just a difference in focus, internal vs external. You help others to help the self, and those who help themselves help others, this is a point I believe Ra has been specific on.

that specific point only exists from the perspective of the 'one' you speak of. however, neither you, or any other is 'the one' yet, nor, any of them will be towards infinity, because it takes an infinite amount of time for a finite to reach infinity.

therefore, from our perspective, self, and others exist. dubbing this an illusion is irrelevant from our perspective and existence. we are not 'one' yet - we are its parts.

therefore, in philosophy, what you speak of holds true, but in practice, it will never hold true.

Of course, what exactly is the purpose of choosing either an STO or STS path? Where is the distinction truly drawn? Does it matter what you do, how you feel, what you intend or what you think? The images of each path must also be separated, service to self implies enslavement and self worship, yet we have all accepted the distortion of the bodily's complex need to eat and be nourished, and also that our systems can digest both plant and animal matter. Also, what about eggs? Is fruit not the eggs of the plants? It seems to me that there is an overidentification with the concept of pain and suffering being solely of negative polarization.

your reach and depth in looking at this matter is not deep :

'the body serving the self by nourishing' is not necessarily something that is self serving.

if, the body is doing a process that another entity needs, this becomes not self serving, but, mutually beneficial symbiont act. say you are a monkey and you need to eat bananas. and the tree needs to spread its seeds and nitrogen. you eat bananas, live in the tree, spread its seeds and provide it nitrogen. the plant flourishes, spreads its seeds, and acquires nitrogen.

or, the monkeys can start killing and eating each other, basically doing nothing in the process, only learning what not to do to destroy the system.

it is a simple question of systems : systems can work well, and harmoniously, or systems can destroy themselves or run problematic.

this universe seems to be based on teaching entities to willingly live in harmony with each other. and in the process, the things that should not be done, are allowed.

Consider, service to self, service to others, one to command and one to serve, one to direct and one to be directed. The Confederation pushes the idea of service-to-others, the words of masters making willing slaves? Difficult to say.

the problem is, there isnt only 'one'. the 'one', as in 'single' or numeric one, is the perception of the 6d entities that are relaying us their philosophy. the 6d, indigo ray, not surprisingly is the ray that carries the meaning of unifiedness of existence. which can easily be mistaken and misperceived to be 'singular' or one.

however, 'one' does not mean 'single', and its opposite does not mean 'multiple. in reality, infinity is comprised of both of these things, it is not only 'one' but also many in nature. it contains both the singularity and the manyness.

no surprise, since entire existence is something created by separating two polarities, and naturally apparently an earlier form of these polarities ended up being 'one' and the 'many'.

in infinity, all of these need to be present with all their complements in order to be complete/incomplete. there needs to me manyness, beside oneness. there has to be finite, beside infinite. (in regard to space/time, time/space - actually these are also polarities of the same complement).

however lets put it in a low level way :

any given universe is created by separating something that absorbs, and something that emits. in other words, a 'void' and an 'is'.

the void and is are also infinite in themselves probably. and it will take the is to expand infinitely to reach the full span of the non, and fill it. non, needs to be filled, the 'is' needs to expand.

you, me, all the other existing entities in this universe are 'is'es. and we is'es, have an infinite non to explore and fill.

by harming of any other 'is', a 'is' generating unit, the filling of non gets delayed, since the total emission of is gets reduced due to concept of spiritual synergy (the effect of the sum of parts are greater than just their effects' sum).

instead, all is'es should be supporting and helping other is'es to generate more 'is', in order to fill the non, and bring this octave to completion.

and this, is inevitably what all of them will be doing, in order to complete this octave. they can tarry or linger, and learn what not to do in the process. but, the is and the non will eventually merge and encompass each other, for there is no other way for it to happen - they will merge just like how they were separated at the beginning of this existence.

and when that happens and this particular creation completes and merges back with the infinite sea of infinite intelligence, another is and non will separate somewhere, and another creation will begin.

the infinitely small ises and nons that create these universes will never reach infinite intelligence, for it is impossible for any of them to become infinity themselves, without enlarging/enriching the infinite intelligence they are a part of themselves - as they become more infinite, infinite intelligence also becomes more infinite, and approaches infinity. and this process will forever continue, since infinite intelligence can also never reach infinity state, as long as it itself exists. and at the state of infinity, none of what we talk here, hold true, so it is not relevant to us.

in short, one can choose to tarry and linger, or dash forward. however direction that will be followed will never change. it is towards the infinity that will never be reached.

[Monica]

@Monica, you know where I am at on my journey.

Yes, and a beautiful place it is!

I would like to know where you stand on inflicting pain on plants.

That is a very deep issue and not everyone agrees on it. I've expressed my own opinions about eating plants, in depth, in this thread as well as in its companion thread, which is linked to in this thread.

[3DMonkey]

Murder is as natural as the monkey spreading nitrogen and banana seeds. Population control is necessary in the balance of life. Cats killing mice is necessary. Rats spreading disease and killing humans is necessary. This 3D sphere is regenerating life by all means. Murder is a necessary part. STO accepts this fully.

This thread, in my view, is about personal choice. How do you feel when eating meat? How do you feel when killing an animal? And I take it further than vegetarians... How do you feel when eating a vegetable? How do you feel when tossing a spent plant into the compost bin?

I hope that this thread is not about right or wrond, good or evil, or about what the population "should" be doing. Azrael, I don't think it is STS to kill a 2D being. (there is nothing in the Ra material to suggest this ). I hope this thread isn't a political one in which we should force change in the world. I hope this thread is about personal expression of personal choice.

[Monica]

Murder is as natural as the monkey spreading nitrogen and banana seeds.

Wow. I'm stunned actually.

Population control is necessary in the balance of life. Cats killing mice is necessary. Rats spreading disease and killing humans is necessary. This 3D sphere is regenerating life by all means. Murder is a necessary part. STO accepts this fully.

Not this STO. I don't accept it.

This thread, in my view, is about personal choice. How do you feel when eating meat? How do you feel when killing an animal? And I take it further than vegetarians... How do you feel when eating a vegetable? How do you feel when tossing a spent plant into the compost bin?

I hope that this thread is not about right or wrond, good or evil, or about what the population "should" be doing. Azrael, I don't think it is STS to kill a 2D being. (there is nothing in the Ra material to suggest this ). I hope this thread isn't a political one in which we should force change in the world. I hope this thread is about personal expression of personal choice.

3D, I don't mean to be evasive here, and I hope you understand that I've already invested many hours in this thread and see no point in repeating what's already been said. Again I invite you to catch up on the thread first, and then I'd be happy to resume the discussion.

---

I don't think it is STS to kill a 2D being. (there is nothing in the Ra material to suggest this

I disagree, and my interpretation of Ra's words is that they do indeed suggest this, though not explicitly stated. This too has been extensively explored in this thread.

[Unbound]

I am merely interested in the reactions to particular lines of questioning. I still believe the foundation of all things to be choice and that the symbolic occurence of events (considering every'thing' is just symbols) in whatever image they appear in do not necessarily represent the nature of the intention. Many of these concepts are so biased towards the words used to describe them, like "murder", "illusion", etc which of course are only fractional concepts with connotations attached to them which trigger individuals to react in a certain way.

Another way to put this is, considering the fact that ultimately the choice of the path (Not every STO/STS is the same) is what is important, then the expression of the path is in the actions. I'd say that that your identification with the STO path has actually become a source of service to self for you, look at the pride you have for your endeavours, and the defensiveness with which you defend your personal perspective. Not to insult but to observe. As you said, much of this is interpretation and balancing is not a matter of "having humans do the proper thing" but a matter of the individual understanding the position of their own perspective and unique balance. Anytime there is a generalization of "this is good for all humans" I have to put my foot down and say this is false, because not every lesson in life means health, happiness and comfort. I, personally, do not see this separation of life in to pain and pleasure, both have lessons, both are valuable. Just as both STO and STS paths must exist and must be walked, it is a natural necessity, both suffering and bliss must be experienced for full evolution. This is evidenced by the combining of the two paths at mid sixth, giving strong evidence that each higher self is indeed composed of both positive and negative paths of knowledge.

Above all I think it needs to remembered that this place is for LEARNING, there is no right or wrong, only learning, comparing, contemplating and experiencing. I agree that murder is "natural" afterall is not anything natural that exists? Is not anything created by the logos thus "natural"? If it exists, it must be a part of the universe and so have some place in it, the universe isn't known for doing things for nothing.

Of course, ultimately I will agree that it is desirable to seek to harmonize with the planet, in fact a friend and I have been involved with the movement for sustainable living and community agriculture. Rather, I noticed that you personally defend this position strongly and I would remind that too much attachment to any particular concept can result in distortions. It is entirely valid for you to have your choice and views on those choices, but your, likely unconscious, expressions often work to instill guilt in those with differing opinions by your 'shock'. I suppose I simply suggest to be conscientious of the voracity from which you defend your position, lest you slip in to self service.

Also, I will state that there are not "means" and "ends", all is continuous. One action leads to another action leads to another action leads to another action, the energy of which could polarize differently in each action and continue to change as the chain continues. Of course, action has been going on for billions of years, and we have all been acting since our day of birth, there is no meter for karma, it is adjusted like a shade in every single moment, always accounting. This is the mechanism by which we may change our karma, by breaking chains and starting new ones. So yes, the means do affect the polarity, however the active intention, the free will, is most prominent. Sometimes a hero has to do dirty things to get the job done, using LOTR again I would reference the need for Aragorn to use the army of Undead spirits to slaughter the armys of Morder. Is violence justifiable on either path? I'd say it is just a method and is entirely contextual. Yes, it is "optimal" for all to be harmonious, but even violence is harmonious if it is in harmony with a planet's consciousness. Of course, you would only expect to see this on a planet that is STS in nature, yet it's arguable that this is the state of our own planet. How often is violence seen as "normal" by our people.

I will say that there is really no such thing as inharmony. Something is either consonant or dissonant, but all is a harmony. My musical experience ascertains this fact for me. We may be dissonant with our planet, but this is still a particular type of harmony which is still valid. I would remind that the Confederation teachings are specifically STO and so are particular to that kind of polarization, and inharmony to them would be the contrast to this consonant state. I am not here to argue which way is more "right" or anything of the sort but I do wish to bring attention to the biases which are present since they are meaningful to the interpretation of the Law of One at this time I feel.

[Monica]

I am merely interested in the reactions to particular lines of questioning.

You are welcome to start a thread on the topic of how people respond to questions. You are also welcome to question Law of One principles (though a familiarity with the books might be advisable in that case).

However, this thread is about how the slaughter and consumption of 2D entities fits in with Law of One principles.

[3DMonkey]

Monica, to accept another's choice to murder is STO. I don't mean that STO accepts killing, but they must accept the killer. Otherwise, there is not love.

---

Also, I've previously determined that Ra suggests that 4D will eat animals too.

[Monica]

Monica, to accept another's choice to murder is STO. I don't mean that STO accepts killing, but they must accept the killer. Otherwise, there is not love.

Thank you for making that distinction!

Also, I've previously determined that Ra suggests that 4D will eat animals too.

Ra did say that 4D entities partake of living foods, but I don't recall any mention of animals. Can you provide a reference?

[unity100]

Monica, to accept another's choice to murder is STO. I don't mean that STO accepts killing, but they must accept the killer. Otherwise, there is not love.

Thank you for making that distinction!

acceptance of another's choice of murder, is acceptance of another's choice of murder. its not sto. its acceptance of a sts act.

acceptance of ANOTHER, despite its choice of murder, is what is sto.

[Monica]

Monica, to accept another's choice to murder is STO. I don't mean that STO accepts killing, but they must accept the killer. Otherwise, there is not love.

Thank you for making that distinction!

acceptance of another's choice of murder, is acceptance of another's choice of murder. its not sto. its acceptance of a sts act.

acceptance of ANOTHER, despite its choice of murder, is what is sto.

That is exactly what I intended to convey but didn't. Thank for for the further refinement!

[unity100]

I am merely interested in the reactions to particular lines of questioning. I still believe the foundation of all things to be choice and that the symbolic occurence of events (considering every'thing' is just symbols) in whatever image they appear in do not necessarily represent the nature of the intention. Many of these concepts are so biased towards the words used to describe them, like "murder", "illusion", etc which of course are only fractional concepts with connotations attached to them which trigger individuals to react in a certain way.

and then why arent you questioning the very concept 'choice', if you are questioning everything in the first place at all ?

does choice, exist at all ?

or, where have the mover/moved choices gone ? can you polarize now, as mover or the moved ? why your available polarization choices are positive and negative now ?

and why the next polarity will be something different in the next octave ?

if, the choice is so fundamental, why is the choice you put so much importance on, did not exist in the previous octave, and wont be there, in the next ...

I, personally, do not see this separation of life in to pain and pleasure, both have lessons, both are valuable. Just as both STO and STS paths must exist and must be walked, it is a natural necessity, both suffering and bliss must be experienced for full evolution. This is evidenced by the combining of the two paths at mid sixth, giving strong evidence that each higher self is indeed composed of both positive and negative paths of knowledge.

there is a contradiction - you defer so much importance on those two paths, as i mentioned above and evident in your posts, and you moreover state that they must be walked, but you also yourself tell that they eventually combine at mid sixth. however you fail to notice that, the combination of these two paths at mid sixth, means that apparently, they should not be walked further at all.

that is of course, forgetting the fact that, the both paths combine at the positive path, now fully complemented with the knowledge of wisdom.

Above all I think it needs to remembered that this place is for LEARNING, there is no right or wrong, only learning, comparing, contemplating and experiencing. I agree that murder is "natural" afterall is not anything natural that exists? Is not anything created by the logos thus "natural"? If it exists, it must be a part of the universe and so have some place in it, the universe isn't known for doing things for nothing.

surely. and just like that, 3d entities are not able to destroy entire solar systems with just their thought. or, a 2d entity is able to travel to a neighboring star system, by thought. even, a 6d entity in a 3d body, is unable to do that.

as you see, limitations are built into the system itself. there are those that the logos allows, there are those it does not.

simply, logos allows you to burn your hand by touching the stove. but, it doesnt allow anyone to enter the stove itself.

learn by mistake margin. murder is there, and doable. so that, you may do it and learn what it is, and not do it. you increasingly stabilize. and, by the time you become a member of a 6d society complex which could do many things including mistakenly destroy themselves by their thought, you have had become an entity which doesnt wander off to such thoughts.

Rather, I noticed that you personally defend this position strongly and I would remind that too much attachment to any particular concept can result in distortions.

that is correct for everything, including, but not limited to, non polarized approaches, or, the attempt to embrace all thought.

Also, I will state that there are not "means" and "ends", all is continuous. One action leads to another action leads to another action leads to another action, the energy of which could polarize differently in each action and continue to change as the chain continues. Of course, action has been going on for billions of years, and we have all been acting since our day of birth, there is no meter for karma, it is adjusted like a shade in every single moment, always accounting. This is the mechanism by which we may change our karma, by breaking chains and starting new ones. So yes, the means do affect the polarity, however the active intention, the free will, is most prominent. Sometimes a hero has to do dirty things to get the job done, using LOTR again I would reference the need for Aragorn to use the army of Undead spirits to slaughter the armys of Morder. Is violence justifiable on either path? I'd say it is just a method and is entirely contextual. Yes, it is "optimal" for all to be harmonious, but even violence is harmonious if it is in harmony with a planet's consciousness. Of course, you would only expect to see this on a planet that is STS in nature, yet it's arguable that this is the state of our own planet. How often is violence seen as "normal" by our people.

there is a contradiction in the above paragraph. first, it poses a grand perspective of 'all being continuous' and therefore there are 'no means or ends', then it limits its perspective to billions of years, and this octave, the concept 'billions of years' being a part of this octave even.

the 'there are no means or ends' can only be true at the point of infinity, at which anything/everything becomes invalid and irrelevant in the first place. (due to completing each other).

for anything below infinity, but especially the finites created by infinite intelligence, there are means and ends, because they are not infinite themselves the way infinity is, and therefore there is change for them. the reason for that is they being finite. and hence, creations that have time, physicality, sequence exists for them. even for the logoi, octaves of experience exist. they(us) go through octaves in neverending fashion.

so, there will be action-reaction, mean-end, before-after, forever, for us. these only lose their meaning at infinite intelligence or above.

I will say that there is really no such thing as inharmony. Something is either consonant or dissonant, but all is a harmony.

again this approach is only valid at infinite intelligence and above, where everything merges and harmonizes, however since everything, including the opposite of harmony also merges with its opposite (harmony), these also lose their meaning at the mystery that is infinity.

for anything under that, harmony and disharmony exist.

[3DMonkey]

!!!!!!
One does not accept another unless they accept the choices of an other.

Frankly, we are all choices.

[Monica]

!!!!!!
One does not accept another unless they accept the choices of an other.

Frankly, we are all choices.

3DM, I've started another thread to explore this topic.

[Confused]

Frankly, we are all choices.

That is a very nice statement. I am going to use that somewhere with someone.

I have learned many new statements like these from b4th, that are filled with wit. Once Xenos said something like 'define your equilibrium'.

It really does add to one's intellectual repertoire.

Thanks, 3.

[Unbound]

Excellent! I am expanding my conceptions already. Do not mind the hard questioning, because I rather like hard answers. As interested as I am in reading the Law of One teachings themselves I find it to be a grander and more interactive learning experience to directly catalyze with a group of studiers. I have an idea for a thread that I will post.

[Confused]

Excellent! I am expanding my conceptions already. Do not mind the hard questioning, because I rather like hard answers. As interested as I am in reading the Law of One teachings themselves I find it to be a grander and more interactive learning experience to directly catalyze with a group of studiers. I have an idea for a thread that I will post.

Looking forward to it, Azrael.

[unity100]

Excellent! I am expanding my conceptions already. Do not mind the hard questioning, because I rather like hard answers. As interested as I am in reading the Law of One teachings themselves I find it to be a grander and more interactive learning experience to directly catalyze with a group of studiers. I have an idea for a thread that I will post.

reading Ra material, you will probably find a much more interactive learning experience and will catalyze even with yourself.

i would heavily recommend that you delve into the material in a silent, calm place, than discussing it in an internet discussion board.