In regards to eating meat

[Aaron]

Many of my friends who were able to break free from the grasps of fundamental Christianity say that the worse thing about it was the guilt it instilled in their life.

I do not believe this kind of guilt is healthy. I think that the topic of guilt is huge and probably deserves its own thread.

I will agree! Levels of guilt that do nothing but choke off and stifle new growth are no good... It's a major orange ray blockage situation, I believe.

[BrownEye]

Many of my friends who were able to break free from the grasps of fundamental Christianity say that the worse thing about it was the guilt it instilled in their life.

I do not believe this kind of guilt is healthy. I think that the topic of guilt is huge and probably deserves its own thread.

From what I can tell they create guilt about sex, and fear about personal path/seeking. Plus they are meat eaters and think they are above sinners and the animal kingdom.

[Monica]

The mind can justify anything, everything, to feel guilty.

The mind can also justify anything, everything, to avoid feeling guilty!

Guilt is a useful emotion. It indicates that we are not forgiving ourselves. (Like Ankh was saying, a tool to indicate where acceptance is warranted)

True, but first we must accept the guilt itself, and pay attention to what the guilt is trying to show us. Then we can accept and forgive whatever we're feeling guilty about.

If that first step is skipped, nothing is learned from the mistake, and the catalyst was wasted.

---

Many of my friends who were able to break free from the grasps of fundamental Christianity say that the worse thing about it was the guilt it instilled in their life.

I do not believe this kind of guilt is healthy. I think that the topic of guilt is huge and probably deserves its own thread.

Agreed. Would anyone like to start a thread about guilt?

[3DMonkey]

I don't feel guilt or shame for eating meat. I've killed animals and forgiven myself for it immediately. I rationalize it the same way we all rationalize killing plants.

[Monica]

Yeah, I had browsed that post and I guess it answers my question (that you do equate any meat eating with cruelty to animals).

It's impossible not to. However, I hope you also noted the very important point that I went to great lengths to clarify in that post, about the distinction between cruelty to animals, and humans knowingly being cruel.

Of course it's obvious to me you understand the difference between the typical meat industry and progressive meat industry.

Yes, absolutely.

I know the topic has been beat to death whether it's cruel to slaughter 2D beings in the form of plants, and we've even discussed this but I just have some new insights I wanted to smooth out, so I apologize if it's all been said in different words. If you're tired of typing the same thing so many times I completely understand if you don't wish to offer your opinion on this.

Thanks for your consideration! I don't mind continuing the conversation - it is an issue I consider very important - provided the whole thread has been read, to avoid repeating what's already been said.

I spend a good 5+ hours a day in my produce garden. During this time, I slaughter literally THOUSANDS more 2D beings than with the meat production, and this is the beings slaughtered that aren't being eaten. Bugs and weeds, in order to have healthy crops, must be taken care of. Being organic, I have to personally slaughter these beings myself, and in a spiritual sense it takes a much bigger toll on me than when I slaughter other animals.

Sure, you can place plants or bugs into a "lower life category" than mammals (like your example of protecting a child over a dog). It's very hard for me to do this, especially when they are being slaughtered just for living and doing what they live to do (eat plants and share plant space with other plants) without being used for sustenance in any way. I can be thankful to my produce friends and my animal friends as they provide nutrition and sustenance for myself and my customers who care about how their food is treated (I'd say a good 80% of my customers take much care in knowing the animals are treated humanely and vegetables grown with care). How can I justify the slaughter of literally thousands of beings in my garden? My crops would die if I allowed the weeds to live, and I couldn't sell anything if I allowed the bugs to have their way with my produce. But their life is ended, abruptly and carelessly.

In the end, I feel much better about reuniting my goat and chicken friends with Spirit, knowing I cared for them and appreciated them their entire life, and knowing they provided their life to continue life.

I can't get over the mindless slaughter in my garden though. Thousands fewer 2D beings die in my meat production opposed to my produce production. It is weighing heavy on my heart. I say a prayer for each weed I pull, and each bug I kill, but in the end, it seems so mindless and useless. I long for a time when we can sustain ourselves without slaughter of any entity, whether it be a goat, chicken, aphid, worm, thistle, mushroom, weed, potato, beet, carrot...etc. But until that time, my own personal "hierarchy for life" has little separation from goat to weed, chicken to bug. And I must say, while I am completely free of judgement as you are, I cannot understand how the slaughter of entities to maintain a garden can be so easily brushed off and the slaughter of entities for direct sustenance be rejected.

It's not my place to judge you or anyone else. This isn't a game of "who's the purest of us all". It's a process of raising awareness, and changing our reality to one that isn't violent. You are part of that very important process of change. I commend you for that!

I really appreciate that, and I commend you as well for being so steadfast in your part of the process of change. It's all important.

Wow, abridgetoofar, what an insightful and heartfelt post! I will do my best to address the points you made, with the understanding that I am not in your shoes, and I don't have all the answers, but am just another seeker trying to do the best I can on this planet, just like you are. All I can do is offer my own opinions, for what they're worth.

I also would like to point out an important distinction between your questions and others who seemed to be seeking approval or justification from me. It's not my place to 'approve' or judge anyone's diet or lifestyle, which is why I avoid commenting on anyone's personal choices, but prefer to focus only on the concepts.

You, however, are focusing on the concepts, while using your own situation as an example to illustrate those concepts. Thus, I will respond.

I will first reiterate that I don't like the design of this planet, and I fully intend to report back to the Logos my opinion, which is, I believe, part of my own particular mission here. Sort of a reconnaissance, to actually feel what it's like to suffer intensely. We've all suffered, of course, but I feel very strongly that the formula of allowing such intense suffering to facilitate spiritual evolution has been taken too far. This topic has been explored in a couple of other threads, even to the point of questioning why animals in the wild must endure the constant itching from fleas!

So, in order to convey my thoughts about your questions, I'd like to make clear that I consider it a responsibility of Wanderers (or, at least, those who feel so inclined towards this particular task) to do what we can to raise the vibration of this planet, and that includes illuminating and transforming suffering in general, meaning that the suffering of our 2D brethren cannot be ignored.

But, the question is, how to do that? You are right in that totally avoiding the killing of 2D entities is impossible, without a complete overhaul of the design of this planet. We all breathe in microorganisms with every breath. (But in that case, are they really dying? Or are they joining with us, in larger life?) We cannot be expected to swerve on the highway, possibly killing other humans, in order to avoid a bug going splat on our windshield.

So, we do the best we can. It's not an absolute, all-or-nothing, black-and-white proposition. It's a continuum.

I know that you and I are in agreement that factory farming is atrocious. I would even go so far to say it is inherently evil, in the same category as war. I see no good in it at all. Zero. It is 100% STS, in my opinion. Please note that I am speaking of the industry itself, not the individual hapless farmers who may have gotten sucked into a system they don't know how to get out of. (Just as I consider the pharmaceutical drug industry as inherently STS, as an industry, but that doesn't mean the individual pharmacists or doctors are STS. I hope everyone understands this very important distinction.)

But, beyond that, I don't think we can say, "xyz is good while abc is bad." It's not that simple. There are too many shades of grey.

As I stated in a previous post in this thread, we know from Ra that, in 4D, we will be consuming living foods, and in 5D a nectar is consumed.

43.17 Questioner: Is it necessary to eat food in fourth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

43.18 Questioner: The mechanism of, shall we say, social catalyst due to a necessity for feeding the body then is active in fourth-density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The fourth-density being desires to serve and the preparation of foodstuffs is extremely simple due to increased communion between entity and living foodstuff. Therefore, this is not a significant catalyst but rather a simple precondition of the space/time experience. The catalyst involved is the necessity for the ingestion of foodstuffs. This is not considered to be of importance by fourth-density entities and it, therefore, aids in the teach/learning of patience.

43.19 Questioner: Could you expand a little bit on how that aids in the teach/learning of patience?

Ra: I am Ra. To stop the functioning of service-to-others long enough to ingest foodstuffs is to invoke patience.

43.20 Questioner: I’m guessing that it is not necessary to ingest foodstuffs in fifth-density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. However, the vehicle needs food which may be prepared by thought.

43.21 Questioner: What type of food would this be?

Ra: I am Ra. You would call this type of food, nectar or ambrosia, or a light broth of golden white hue.

43.22 Questioner: What is the purpose of ingesting food in fifth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is a somewhat central point. The purpose of space/time is the increase in catalytic action appropriate to the density. One of the preconditions for space/time existence is some form of body complex. Such a body complex must be fueled in some way.

43.23 Questioner: In third density the fueling of our bodily complex is not only simply fueling of the bodily complex but gives us opportunities to learn service. In fourth density it not only fuels the complex but gives us opportunities to learn patience. In fifth density it fuels the complex but does it teach?

Ra: I am Ra. In fifth density it is comfort for those of like mind gathered together to share in this broth, thus becoming one in light and wisdom while joining hearts and hands in physical activity. Thus in this density it becomes a solace rather than a catalyst for learning.

43.24 Questioner: I am simply trying to trace the evolution of this catalyst that then, as you say, changes in fifth density. I might as well complete this and ask if there is any ingestion of food in sixth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. However, the nature of this food is that of light and is impossible to describe to you in any meaningful way as regards the thrust of your query.

I find it absurd to think that we could go from eating dead animal carcasses wrapped in plastic, that were killed mindlessly and cruelly at a factory farm, to consuming living foods or nectar, in an instant.

As Edgar Cayce said, "You don't go to heaven, you grow to heaven."

We won't just go poof and find ourselves in 4D, consuming living foods, right after eating a hamburger at McDonald's.

That seems incongruent to me. Consciousness must be shifted, and consciousness shifts in stages, though it remains ever possible to have that sudden, instant grand shift in consciousness (though not probable!).

Facilitating this shift in consciousness from accepting the atrocities of factory farms, to actually caring about how the animals were raised, is a crucially important part of this process! Thus, I see your service as being extremely important, because you are offering a path in the direction of increased awareness and a reduction in cruelty.

Just as the step from point a to point b is a progression, so too is the step from point b to point c.

What is the goal? It is as you said: No needless suffering/killing at all. Point z is a 4D planet where, presumably, the lion will lie beside the lamb, and wolves will no longer itch from fleas.

How do we get there? We have to start by no longer supporting factory farms. That is an important first step.

Going vegetarian is an important step.

Where does killing bugs and weeds fit into this continuum?

That too is a step along the way. You are obviously becoming acutely aware of the plight of not only animals, but bugs and weeds. Increased awareness is always a step in the right direction, so I commend you for that!

I have only a small backyard garden, and so far have not had to kill any bugs. I did find a fat, fuzzy caterpillar whom I tossed in the empty field next door, but other than that I've been lucky so far. I have had good success with talking to wasps and getting them to move their nests away from the front door, but I confess to having killed cockroaches and mosquitoes. I'm definitely not exemplary when it comes to bugs! I have recently started working more diligently towards harmonizing with cockroaches and mosquitoes, and the fleas on my dogs. I'm making some progress, thankfully! but still have a ways to go.

But I am working on it. I am letting most weeds grow, and some useful, edible weeds have popped up, which I am treating like the cultivated plants. I have a lot more freedom to do this, since my garden is not my livelihood, as yours is. I don't envy your situation!

I foresee a point in the continuum being total harmony with Nature, so that no bugs or weeds are killed. There are a number of books about this (whose titles I previously posted somewhere), so clearly some people are doing this successfully. They are forming pacts with the plant devas and insect populations, allowing them free reign in designated areas, and the system seems to be working beautifully!

I just read in one of those books, about a new idea of letting gardens be semi-wild. Rather than eradicate all the weeds, some farmers are letting useful weeds grow, and are even creating a market for them in upscale restaurants!

Did you know that wild dandelion greens are about 100 times more nutritious than cultivated lettuce?

One suggestion is to investigate the value of weeds. You just might find (or create) a market for them!

I however am a novice, so I cannot speak from experience. But I am inspired by these books, and plan to incorporate these methods, as much as possible.

I don't know whether such practices are practical on a large scale, so I am only offering these ideas for your consideration.

In the meantime, I will offer my opinion about bugs.

Ra has stated that 2D entities gain self-awareness, the prerequisite for harvest to 3D, and this process is facilitated by interaction with 3D entities. Over time, our interactions with our dogs and cats help prepare them for 3D.

I don't see any such interaction with individual aphids.

We tend to interact with colonies of aphids, not individual ones.

Hierarchy does come into play. How can it not?

It's not about inherent value of the entities. The individual aphid has just as much inherent value as you or I.

I am not worth more than that aphid just because I am more evolved.

But, it's about practicality and efficiency. A 3D entity has a lot more invested in this lifetime than a 2D entity. Look at how much time, care, and preparation the soul invested before incarnating! All the way down to pre-incarnational programming. Incarnating into a 3D body is quite a big deal!

Not so for the aphid. We know from Ra that incarnations in 2D are pretty much automatic. The aphid you just killed may already be incarnating again by the time you get to the next plant!

Furthermore, that aphid never had the time nor the luxury, to develop self-awareness. You are likely not addressing every individual aphid - how can you? You see a colony of aphids on the tomato plant and you're thinking about aphids, not an aphid.

There might be more projection of awareness onto a slug or caterpillar, but even so, not likely enough to trigger self-awareness in that slug or caterpillar.

Thus, while the slug has just as much inherent value as you or I, it doesn't have as much invested in this lifetime. It can roll with getting killed a lot more easily than we can. Death isn't as traumatizing to a bug as it is to a cow or goat, for the simple reason that the cow or goat is more awake and aware than the bug.

I realize that my opinions are likely going to get challenged. I will be asked, How do you know the slug isn't as aware as the goat? Well, by common sense, based on what Ra has told us.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. To me, it's common sense that an entity evolved enough to be self-aware, wouldn't incarnate into the body of a slug! Why would it do that, when it could make much more progress in the body of a goat, cat or dog?

I cannot prove that I am right in these opinions. But to me, it just makes sense.

Just as it makes sense to me that an entity evolved enough for self-awareness, including an aversion to pain and suffering, wouldn't incarnate into the body of a carrot. Why would it do that, when it could incarnate into a bird who is mobile and can fly away from predators?

It's not just a matter of numbers. Yes, a greater number of aphids are being killed than goats, but the goats are far more sentient, and although that doesn't make them any more valuable to the Creator, it does mean that they have more invested in their incarnation than the aphids.

We know that a continuum exists. We know that a hierarchy exists. Whether we like it or not, we must do the best we can to fit into that continuum, and that might require taking hierarchy into consideration.

Maybe the only way to make sense of the situation is to weigh out the overall net good effect from our actions. What is the net good of offering organic produce and meat from animals who were cared for and treated humanely?

I would say that the net good, in terms of raising the awareness of 3D entities, far outweighs the net bad, in terms of the bugs killed.

You are providing a very important service, at this point in time, given the current state of awareness on this planet. I must be honest and tell you that I foresee a time in which no animals are ever slaughtered for food, and you already know that I see, as a goal to aspire to, a planet that is entirely vegetarian.

I will also be honest and say that I don't really understand the necessity for offering meat at all, when there is a profitable market for goat's milk, eggs, and organic produce. But, again, I see that as a continuum.

In the meantime, farmers like you are providing a very important service, to raise awareness, in pursuit of that eventual goal. I realize that you might not agree with my vision of a vegetarian society, but I'm just explaining how I see your service as fitting into that picture, rather than being in opposition to it.

I see raising awareness of the plight of animals as the first step. I see going vegetarian as the next step. I see eliminating the killing of bugs as a step beyond where most people can even fathom, at this point. But you are fathoming it...you are acutely aware of the killing of bugs and weeds. Therefore, it must be an important issue for you, since you are in that situation. You are facing this clearly. You are confronting it. Therefore, maybe you are tasked with bringing this to the awareness of others. Maybe you will join with the other farmers and gardeners who are pioneering new techniques for working harmoniously with the plant and insect oversouls.

There is a reason you aren't satisfied with killing bugs and weeds. Maybe it's to provide a catalyst for you to take your art to the next level, and lead the way for the rest of us.

Blessings to you!

Note: This marathon post has been edited.

[3DMonkey]

Ra has stated that 2D entities gain self-awareness, the prerequisite for harvest to 3D, and this process is facilitated by interaction with 3D entities. Over time, our interactions with our dogs and cats help prepare them for 3D.

Ra did include plants in the very same statement.

Personally, I'm not helping any animal or plant reach for 3D currently. This may be why their is a conglomeration of biases on this subject in this thread. Some of us have obviously come here (incarnated) to help a sector of 2Ds. This is commendable and recognized as such. It may in fact be necessary to be biased toward others' 'choices' to do the work. I'm okay with whatever choices people make.... until a 'line' is crossed with me. It's okay with me if anyone wants to express themselves outside of detailed "concepts", or if they want to repeat someone else's words if they feel the desire to.

[Monica]

Ra did include plants in the very same statement.

Yes, trees.

[3DMonkey]

Ra did include plants in the very same statement.

Yes, trees.

Not true. Second density includes all plants.

40.3
Thus in first-density the red ray is the foundation for all that is to come. In second density the orange ray is that of movement and growth of the individual, this ray striving towards the yellow ray of self-conscious manifestations of a social nature as well as individual; third-density being the equivalent, and so forth, each density being primarily its ray plus the attractions of the following ray pulling it forward in evolution and to some extent coloring or shading the chief color of that density.

41.24
Red ray is the foundation; orange ray the movement towards yellow ray which is the ray of self-awareness and interaction.

41.13 Questioner: Is this energy center, then, on a very small scale related to the orange energy center in man?
Ra: I am Ra. The true color is precisely the same. However, the consciousness of the second-density beginning is primitive and the use of orange ray limited to the expression of self which may be seen to be movement and survival.

41.14 Questioner: Could you tell me the simplest and first entity to have both orange and yellow ray energy centers?
Ra: I am Ra. Upon your planetary sphere those having the first yellow ray experiences are those of animal and vegetable natures which find the necessity for reproduction by bisexual techniques or who find it necessary to depend in some way upon otherselves for survival and growth.

41.12 Questioner: I didn’t mean to waste time with that question but you just happened to mention that particular single cell. Does this polymorphous dynaflagallate have an orange energy center?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?
Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

With the proper care, it is feasible that a garden vegetable could achieve 2D harvestability. It is also feasible that our 3D culture could reverse it's application of investing identity into animals and more into plants thus creating an environment that facilitates 2D entities placing plant incarnation above animal incarnation.
It is all up to the coCreators really.

---

It would also be conceptual to say that a heifer at a feed lot is further down the 2D totem pole than the plant in a 3D entity's living room.

[Monica]

Not true. Second density includes all plants.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'not true.' It is true that Ra mentioned trees.

?

Yes 2nd density includes all plants, but not all plants are in a position to become individualized.

Ra didn't say other plants couldn't become individualized, but just gave trees as an example, presumably because it is more common with trees.

19.2 Questioner: Let’s take the point at which an individualized entity of second density is ready for transition to third. Is this second-density being what we would call animal?

Ra: I am Ra. There are three types of second-density entities which become, shall we say, enspirited. The first is the animal. This is the most predominant. The second is the vegetable, most especially that which you call, sound vibration complex, “tree.” These entities are capable of giving and receiving enough love to become individualized. The third is mineral. Occasionally a certain location/place, as you may call it, becomes energized to individuality through the love it receives and gives in relationship to a third-density entity which is in relationship to it. This is the least common transition.

Think of an ancient oak tree, who has been loved by many generations of people who lived near that tree. Over time, that tree has developed self-awareness, facilitated by the love given by many people, over hundreds or even thousands of years.

With the proper care, it is feasible that a garden vegetable could achieve 2D harvestability. It is also feasible that our 3D culture could reverse it's application of investing identity into animals and more into plants thus creating an environment that facilitates 2D entities placing plant incarnation above animal incarnation.
It is all up to the coCreators really.

Feasible, perhaps. But practical on a wide scale, I don't think so.

At any rate, arguing that plants 'might' be self-aware does not justify slaughtering animals, whom we know already have self-awareness.

It would also be conceptual to say that a heifer at a feed lot is further down the 2D totem pole than the plant in a 3D entity's living room.

Then don't eat the living room plant!

That doesn't justify eating the heifer.

---

I'm okay with whatever choices people make.... until a 'line' is crossed with me.

I see a line being crossed with animals, and they cannot champion themselves.

[drifting pages]

Animals feel more close to us so we assume more what they feel, plants are in a way more alien to us so we assume they don't feel as we do. We just assume, a lot.
To me eating animals is part of the cycle at this moment and so it is eating plants, that is how nature is working, if i stop eating meat from my perspective i am saying nature is wrong in what it does.

I have no judgment or issues about killing animals for my sustenance.

Maybe eventually one day this won't be part of the reality i become but right now it is.

To me it is that simple, right now i live this way, some day this might not be necessary anymore.

But this is all very relative as are all things but the ONE (unknowable)

That said if someone wants to only eat plants or only eat animals or not eat at all, if thy are aligned with it and are not judging or blaming or pushing against those that do not do as they see fit, are just as able to be happy and go with the flow of life.

That is how i see it.

-------------------------

[Monica]

if i stop eating meat from my perspective i am saying nature is wrong in what it does.

Why not say that? Why not change the design of nature, for future 3D planets? If we are Wanderers, then why not improve the design?

To me it is that simple, right now i live this way, some day this might not be necessary anymore.

But that's the whole point I've been trying to convey: For most people, it's already not necessary.

[3DMonkey]

That is for each to decide for self.

[Monica]

That is for each to decide for self.

Of course. I was speaking physiologically. Human bodies have certain nutritional requirements, all of which can be obtained from plant foods. There are some exceptions, due to medical conditions, which is why I used the word 'most.' Eggs and organic milk products can fill in the gaps for most who feel they require some animal foods.

I am speaking about actual physiological, biological need here, not personal preference.

[3DMonkey]

I could live on meat alone as well. "??"

[Monica]

I could live on meat alone as well. "??"

No human can live on meat alone for very long. The human body has requirements not found in meat.

Even the Inuit, who consume a heavily-meat-based diet, consume vegetation.

from wikipedia:

Inuit consume a diet of foods that are fished, hunted, and gathered locally. This may include walrus, Ringed Seal, Bearded Seal, beluga whale, caribou, polar bear, muskoxen, birds (including their eggs) and fish. While it is not possible to cultivate plants for food in the Arctic the Inuit have traditionally gathered those that are naturally available. Grasses, tubers, roots, stems, berries, fireweed and seaweed (kuanniq or edible seaweed) were collected and preserved depending on the season and the location.

[3DMonkey]

What is very long? What is a fulfilled life? More ideas up to the individual to decide.

We are just bodies that obtain energy from other bodies. The Creator made it this way.

If I were to follow the example of the vegaetarian, I would justify that what I'm eating doesn't have a soul close enough to my own to make a difference if it dies or not. If I can make that justification for one thing, the example set is that I can make the justification for another.

[Monica]

What is very long? What is a fulfilled life? More ideas up to the individual to decide.

If someone wants to try living on only meat, they can certainly do that!

They would likely get constipated very quickly, from lack of fiber.

We are just bodies that obtain energy from other bodies. The Creator made it this way.

More specifically, the Logos did.

If I were to follow the example of the vegaetarian, I would justify that what I'm eating doesn't have a soul close enough to my own to make a difference if it dies or not. If I can make that justification for one thing, the example set is that I can make the justification for another.

I don't understand your views, 3DM. You told me earlier that "anything goes" and it doesn't matter what we do. If that's the case, then no justification is needed anyway.

But blessings to you anyway!

[kycahi]

Note: This marathon post has been edited.

But not nearly enough! Just kidding. I'm KIDDING.

This post has a lot of good stuff. Thanks Monica. For some reason it triggered a couple of possible factoids. "Possible" because I dunno about the fact part. First was some vague source from long ago that said that animals leave their bodies shortly before slaughter. I am willing to believe that; I hope so anyway.

I remember reading an Edgar Cayce book where he and a companion were about to enter an elevator to return to street level when Cayce stopped his companion. That elevator crashed to the ground, killing all of the occupants. He said later that he had seen that everybody standing in the elevator did not have auras.

Next was from an interview of a woman who wrote a book about her life as a functioning autistic person. She discovered somehow, because she is very intelligent, that she could make herself feel at peace after over-stimulation by wrapping herself tightly in a fabric. I think she was already working in the meat industry. At any rate, she proposed to add a stage to the processing where each cow/steer/calf was briefly wrapped around the middle. It had the immediate effect of calming the terrified animals, so the company expanded this to everywhere and word spread in the industry.

I don't remember if this action improved the taste of the meat, although I wouldn't be surprised. McDonalds heard about it and required that every processor of its meat install this invention. You can imagine the kind of clout they have, so it was done all over.

I am not writing this to justify meat-eating. I don't do it much myself. Still, it's nice to know that 2D and 3D have a kind of protective mechanism. When I eat a meat OR plant product I try to remember to thank the entity for nourishing me.

38.6 Questioner: Is it possible for a third-density planet to form a social memory complex which operates in third-density?

Ra: I am Ra. It is possible only in the latter or seventh portion of such a density when entities are harmoniously readying for graduation.

38.7 Questioner: Could you give me an example of a planet of this nature, both a third-density service-to-others type and a third-density service-to-self type at this level of attainment?

Ra: I am Ra. As far as we are aware there are no negatively oriented third-density social memory complexes. Positively oriented social memory complexes of third-density are not unheard of but quite rare. However, an entity from the star Sirius’ planetary body has approached this planetary body twice. This entity is late third-density and is part of a third-density social memory complex. This has been referred to in the previous material [Charlie Hixson]. The social memory complex is properly a fourth-density phenomenon.

38.8 Questioner: I was wondering if that particular social memory complex from the Sirius star evolved from trees?

Ra: I am Ra. This approaches correctness. Those second-density vegetation forms which graduated into third-density upon this planet bearing the name of Dog were close to the tree as you know it.

38.9 Questioner: I was also wondering, since action of a bellicose nature is impossible as far as I understand vegetation, would they not have the advantage as they move into third-density from second to not carry a racial memory of a bellicose nature and therefore develop a more harmonious society and accelerate their evolution in this nature?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. However, to become balanced and begin to polarize properly it is then necessary to investigate movements of all kinds, especially bellicosity.

38.10 Questioner: I am assuming, then, that their investigations of bellicosity were primarily of the type that they extracted from Hixson’s memory rather than warfare among themselves?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. Entities of this heritage would find it nearly impossible to fight. Indeed, their studies of movements of all kinds is their form of meditation due to the fact that their activity is upon the level of what you would call meditation and thus must be balanced, just as your entities need constant moments of meditation to balance your activities.

38.11 Questioner: I believe that this is an important point for us in understanding the balancing aspect of meditation since we have here its antithesis in another type of evolution. These entities moved, we are told by Charlie Hixson, without moving their legs. I am assuming that they used a principle that is somewhat similar to the principle of movement of your crystal bells in the movement of their physical vehicles. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is partially incorrect.

38.12 Questioner: I am assuming that their method of movement is not a function of mechanical leverage such as ours, but a direct function of the mind somehow connected with the magnetic action of a planet. Is this right?

Ra: I am Ra. This is largely correct. It is an electromagnetic phenomenon which is controlled by thought impulses of a weak electrical nature.

There's a lot going on in this big quote:

• A third density vegetation social memory complex
  
• The third density has seven sub-densities
  
• Tree-like smc entities getting ready for harvest to 4D
  
• Hixson incarnated onto Earth to experience war (I think it was the Korean), then shared this experience with his smc because they needed it to improve polarization and achieve 4D harvest
  

From this we learn that vegetation does indeed have consciousness and can achieve harvest to 3D and 4D. That gives me reason to be grateful for lower forms of veg when they provide nourishment.

My main arguments to prefer plant-source food over animal-source food is that it is just healthier for my body--no cholesterol, no animal fat or protein and it lasts longer before going bad. Animal-sourced food is god-awful after it spoils, far worse than plant-sourced. That tells me something right there.

Finally, I do believe that eating animal products leads to an imbalance of many types, only one of which is the horrible industrialized methods of growing and killing food animals.

[3DMonkey]

I said if.

.....
I don't thank the entity for the food on my plate. The entity is long gone. I thank the creator for all that is, Co-create a loving vibration, and enjoy.

[BrownEye]

They say the quickest way to counter enlightenment or kundalini is to eat meat. Drops your vibration right back down to the animal.

I don't really understand the idea of sts or left hand path. By believing in the text then you also have to accept the described dead end, and the fact that it is harder to retrace your steps once there.

Aren't those who come back to help us move forward bound to our laws rather than the laws they left behind? They take the risk of losing ground simply for their sacrifice.

Monica, I think you are going down the same route here. Simply by lowering your vibrations to accommodate others in attempts to help them understand. In my case I move along if I see no reception or comprehension. You can't choose who to help, but you can be available to those who need it. For every stick in the mud I spend too much time with, someone passes by that is lost and seeking answers.

No offence to those who are sts or lhp, I just don't see the magnetism.

[Nyu]

In regards to meat, I noticed that part in the Ra material because it's something I question myself, and in it they did say to eat fruit, grains and meat, so I don't think it has any bearing on your vibrational level.

However I am finding myself less inclined to want to eat meat lately. I don't have a real problem with it on a primal level (I might if I had to kill the animal myself, but I find it's easy to eat meat when it comes pre-prepared from the supermarket as you don't have any attachment to the animal it came from - not that this is a good thing! It is better to have attachment to the animal so that you are truly thankful for it giving its life for you), but I have been finding lately that my spirit just doesn't really like it. I feel heavy and sick after it, and I do not feel good like I do if I eat vegetarian. So personally I am becoming less inclined toward it, but that is not going to be true for everyone.

[kycahi]

Nyu, I think you gave the very best reasons to go the veg route: it just feels more right. :idea:

[Monica]

Nyu, I think you gave the very best reasons to go the veg route: it just feels more right. :idea:

OK case closed. Should I lock this thread now?

[Bring4th_Austin]

Wow, abridgetoofar, what an insightful and heartfelt post! I will do my best to address the points you made, with the understanding that I am not in your shoes, and I don't have all the answers, but am just another seeker trying to do the best I can on this planet, just like you are. All I can do is offer my own opinions, for what they're worth.

I also would like to point out an important distinction between your questions and others who seemed to be seeking approval or justification from me. It's not my place to 'approve' or judge anyone's diet or lifestyle, which is why I avoid commenting on anyone's personal choices, but prefer to focus only on the concepts.

I feel the reason people may do this would be the same reason I (somewhat unconsciously) singled you out in this thread. You provide the best “vegetarian backboard” I know; that is to say, you are articulate, thorough, and your passion for this topic is beyond admirable. I know that when I bounce any ideas about the consumption of meat off of you, they will come back proper and heart-felt. Within this discussion I am seeking approval from myself above all else, and I knew that having this discussion would help (which it already has), so for that I thank you greatly.

I will first reiterate that I don't like the design of this planet, and I fully intend to report back to the Logos my opinion, which is, I believe, part of my own particular mission here. Sort of a reconnaissance, to actually feel what it's like to suffer intensely. We've all suffered, of course, but I feel very strongly that the formula of allowing such intense suffering to facilitate spiritual evolution has been taken too far. This topic has been explored in a couple of other threads, even to the point of questioning why animals in the wild must endure the constant itching from fleas!

I agree, I remember a quote from a member along the lines of “free will in this needs and overhaul.” However, I keep in the forefront of my mind that I knew what I was doing when I incarnated here; in a major sense, we all did. I can only imagine the fruits of the lessons learned by an awakened individual on this planet. I am very excited to carry these lessons with me throughout the cosmos as I walk the steps of light in service to others, sharing with them the craziness that was my 2D/3D environment!

So, in order to convey my thoughts about your questions, I'd like to make clear that I consider it a responsibility of Wanderers (or, at least, those who feel so inclined towards this particular task) to do what we can to raise the vibration of this planet, and that includes illuminating and transforming suffering in general, meaning that the suffering of our 2D brethren cannot be ignored.

I take up this honor/duty/responsibility with great excitement for the opportunity to bring this awareness. Oneness with all will be remembered here.

I know that you and I are in agreement that factory farming is atrocious. I would even go so far to say it is inherently evil, in the same category as war. I see no good in it at all. Zero. It is 100% STS, in my opinion. Please note that I am speaking of the industry itself, not the individual hapless farmers who may have gotten sucked into a system they don't know how to get out of. (Just as I consider the pharmaceutical drug industry as inherently STS, as an industry, but that doesn't mean the individual pharmacists or doctors are STS. I hope everyone understands this very important distinction.)

I will agree that the industry seems to be completely STS. However, our opinion may differ on the individual farmers. They can see their animals suffer to a much greater extent than their consumers. They scoff at animal rights. I can love them and forgive them for their choices, but as has been talked about extensively on these forums: I don’t have to accept those choices. And choices they are, when alternatives to animal cruelty are offered and dismissed or belittled in the interest of self-preservation. That is, as you say, 100% STS.

As I stated in a previous post in this thread, we know from Ra that, in 4D, we will be consuming living foods, and in 5D a nectar is consumed.

I find it absurd to think that we could go from eating dead animal carcasses wrapped in plastic, that were killed mindlessly and cruelly at a factory farm, to consuming living foods or nectar, in an instant.

As Edgar Cayce said, "You don't go to heaven, you grow to heaven."

We won't just go poof and find ourselves in 4D, consuming living foods, right after eating a hamburger at McDonald's.

That seems incongruent to me. Consciousness must be shifted, and consciousness shifts in stages, though it remains ever possible to have that sudden, instant grand shift in consciousness (though not probable!).

Facilitating this shift in consciousness from accepting the atrocities of factory farms, to actually caring about how the animals were raised, is a crucially important part of this process! Thus, I see your service as being extremely important, because you are offering a path in the direction of increased awareness and a reduction in cruelty.

I wish that 4D were here with full blown telepathy, because I truly want to share with you the amazing synchronistic energy I’ve experienced in my life the past six months regarding this very shift in consciousness you’re talking about (alas I don’t have the time). It brought tears to my eyes today, the good kind. I will have to elaborate at another time, perhaps in a thread dedicated to what I’ve been experiencing. Simply put, there has been an incredible shift in consumer consciousness regarding the production and treatment of their food. The numbers are incredible. The opportunities are incredible. My life, in regards to this very topic we are discussing right now, has been incredible.

Just as the step from point a to point b is a progression, so too is the step from point b to point c.

What is the goal? It is as you said: No needless suffering/killing at all. Point z is a 4D planet where, presumably, the lion will lie beside the lamb, and wolves will no longer itch from fleas.

Or, maybe point Z is a planet where the 2D environment continues as it does now, but completely un-infringed upon by our 4D selves. The planet you discuss would be amazing, but it exists somewhere already, probably in many forms.

How do we get there? We have to start by no longer supporting factory farms. That is an important first step.

Going vegetarian is an important step.

Where does killing bugs and weeds fit into this continuum?

That too is a step along the way. You are obviously becoming acutely aware of the plight of not only animals, but bugs and weeds. Increased awareness is always a step in the right direction, so I commend you for that!

This statement helps me realize even clearer the “step” process you’re describing. It makes me realize that possibly, my awareness might be slightly jumping ahead of the circumstances I incarnated to help change, at least at this stage of my life.

I have only a small backyard garden, and so far have not had to kill any bugs. I did find a fat, fuzzy caterpillar whom I tossed in the empty field next door, but other than that I've been lucky so far. I have had good success with talking to wasps and getting them to move their nests away from the front door, but I confess to having killed cockroaches and mosquitoes. I'm definitely not exemplary when it comes to bugs! I have recently started working more diligently towards harmonizing with cockroaches and mosquitoes, and the fleas on my dogs. I'm making some progress, thankfully! but still have a ways to go.

I feel that tossing that caterpillar was hardly an infringement. I think the beautiful thing is you didn’t squash it with your boot and go “yuck” as you wiped its guts on the grass. I’ve had similar luck with wasps and such, especially this year. In fact, on an ironically similar note, I recently expressed to the universe an interest in keeping honey bees. Two weeks later, after thinking about it a lot and wondering where I could find a starter queen/hive, a hive of honey bees migrated onto my property! (Luckily, completely out of the way of any disturbance.) Now I just need to find the time to learn ALL about beekeeping. I hope they stick around for a while.

But I am working on it. I am letting most weeds grow, and some useful, edible weeds have popped up, which I am treating like the cultivated plants. I have a lot more freedom to do this, since my garden is not my livelihood, as yours is. I don't envy your situation!

Please tell me, what weeds are edible!? (And I’ll pray they grow here!) I’ve found myself thinking very often to myself, “why can’t lettuce and cabbage and kale grow as prolifically as these weeds…hunger would be eliminated!” I wouldn’t have too much trouble experimenting with edible weeds, but it is the invasive ones that will affect my production and I must control fastidiously, as well as the bugs.

I foresee a point in the continuum being total harmony with Nature, so that no bugs or weeds are killed. There are a number of books about this (whose titles I previously posted somewhere), so clearly some people are doing this successfully. They are forming pacts with the plant devas and insect populations, allowing them free reign in designated areas, and the system seems to be working beautifully!

I have also heard that this is the key, allowing them a certain part or number of the crops. I have my own communication methods of doing this, with mixed results (some weeks it seems to work and some weeks my leafy greens have more holes than swiss cheese). We’re still expanding the garden, so hopefully soon we’ll have enough to offer the buggers. Unfortunately, at this point, we have to keep up enough production for two farmers’ markets AND feed ourselves, so we harvest everything we can every week.

I just read in one of those books, about a new idea of letting gardens be semi-wild. Rather than eradicate all the weeds, some farmers are letting useful weeds grow, and are even creating a market for them in upscale restaurants!

Did you know that wild dandelion greens are about 100 times more nutritious than cultivated lettuce?

There are some vendors that sell dandelion greens at the markets here, I never thought twice about it! Thanks for this information, I’ll have to learn how to take advantage of this. Consumers are moving very rapidly in the direction of sustainable “green” food, produce and meat. I can only imagine things like this will only become more popular.

I however am a novice, so I cannot speak from experience. But I am inspired by these books, and plan to incorporate these methods, as much as possible.

I am also a novice. I only started the full-time farm thing a few months ago (after doing it part time for about a year), taking over a lot of responsibility from my parents’ brand new farm. They seemed to bite off more than they could chew (my dad still works full time and my mom can’t do much in the way of hard labor), and now I’m doing most of the work XD. I’m learning a whole lot very fast and will take any advice from any level gardener!

I don't know whether such practices are practical on a large scale, so I am only offering these ideas for your consideration.

We are dedicated to sustainable farming, with the mantra of “do more with less.” This idea of edible weeds is golden for us and I will definitely investigate it more. Thank you for the inspiration!

Ra has stated that 2D entities gain self-awareness, the prerequisite for harvest to 3D, and this process is facilitated by interaction with 3D entities. Over time, our interactions with our dogs and cats help prepare them for 3D.

I don't see any such interaction with individual aphids.

We tend to interact with colonies of aphids, not individual ones.

Can’t 3D awareness come naturally, without interaction with 3D entities? I cannot recall a specific Ra comment about this, but how else would a planet gain 3D entities without already existing 3D entities? Wouldn’t it be possible, if aphid consciousness were left completely in the hands of 2D nature for millions/possibly billions of years of evolution, it would become self-aware? This may not be as much of a counter-point as a simple point.

Hierarchy does come into play. How can it not?

It's not about inherent value of the entities. The individual aphid has just as much inherent value as you or I.

I am not worth more than that aphid just because I am more evolved.

But, it's about practicality and efficiency. A 3D entity has a lot more invested in this lifetime than a 2D entity. Look at how much time, care, and preparation the soul invested before incarnating! All the way down to pre-incarnational programming. Incarnating into a 3D body is quite a big deal!

Furthermore, that aphid never had the time nor the luxury, to develop self-awareness. You are likely not addressing every individual aphid - how can you? You see a colony of aphids on the tomato plant and you're thinking about aphids, not an aphid.

There might be more projection of awareness onto a slug or caterpillar, but even so, not likely enough to trigger self-awareness in that slug or caterpillar.

Thus, while the slug has just as much inherent value as you or I, it doesn't have as much invested in this lifetime. It can roll with getting killed a lot more easily than we can. Death isn't as traumatizing to a bug as it is to a cow or goat, for the simple reason that the cow or goat is more awake and aware than the bug.

I realize that my opinions are likely going to get challenged. I will be asked, How do you know the slug isn't as aware as the goat? Well, by common sense, based on what Ra has told us.

Your opinions, if I could just simply make them my own, would be very beneficial to me (not to say this discussion hasn’t already been helpful). Are you referring to a specific Ra transcription, or the Ra material in general?

I definitely will say that a goat or a chicken have much more apparent personality than an aphid. They interact with each other and with nature in ways I would never imagine a bug doing. Is this a factor you personally use to determine level of self-awareness?

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. To me, it's common sense that an entity evolved enough to be self-aware, wouldn't incarnate into the body of a slug! Why would it do that, when it could make much more progress in the body of a goat, cat or dog?

The way I always understood 2D incarnation was that the soul incarnated into the same animal consciousness every time, until the biological pool became unviable or the entity was harvested. I think I drew this understanding from Ra, but I could very well be wrong about it. I will try to find some verification, otherwise, we’re both just admittedly speculating.

Just as it makes sense to me that an entity evolved enough for self-awareness, including an aversion to pain and suffering, wouldn't incarnate into the body of a carrot. Why would it do that, when it could incarnate into a bird who is mobile and can fly away from predators?

I’ve used the example of the chickens’ inherent docile state at night in this thread (or the one on The Responsibility of Participation). Does a chicken choosing to incarnate into that condition mean the chicken is okay with being killed, if only at night? Remember that the chicken is awake and aware, but does not fight or flee in the face of danger. I recently discovered (just last night in fact…) this is not the case for all breeds of chickens, but most I’ve encountered (a possum is able to kill every chicken in a chicken coop without a peep from the chickens).

Our differing theories on 2D incarnation render this particular point rather difficult to discuss. Is a carrot really choosing to incarnate as a carrot, or is it doing so because that is where its soul originated: carrot mass consciousness? Will a carrot know it will incarnate into a garden or into the wild? What about a goat, or a chicken? When I have some time I will try to find some conclusive answers on the nature of 2D incarnation.

It's not just a matter of numbers. Yes, a greater number of aphids are being killed than goats, but the goats are far more sentient, and although that doesn't make them any more valuable to the Creator, it does mean that they have more invested in their incarnation than the aphids.

I can see how a goat’s incarnation is more invested than an aphids in a sense, but couldn’t it also be true that the goat that is killed might also be instantly reincarnating as another goat? The goat might be more able to interact with its environment, more able to flee death, but if an aphid were aware it were about to die, would it really be more okay with it than the goat? And wouldn’t using the aphid’s lack of awareness as justification to kill it be similar to killing a goat in its sleep?

Maybe the only way to make sense of the situation is to weigh out the overall net good effect from our actions. What is the net good of offering organic produce and meat from animals who were cared for and treated humanely?

I would say that the net good, in terms of raising the awareness of 3D entities, far outweighs the net bad, in terms of the bugs killed.

I cannot thank you enough for this statement. The idea was dancing around in my consciousness without coming forward, and it helps to alleviate much of the weight on my heart. And not necessarily because of the hierarchy you describe, which I admit I will probably still wrestle with, but because it helps me realize that to get to the point where I will not have to slaughter bugs, I might just have to slaughter a few. In a grand sense, these bugs are offering their incarnation to this very purpose.

You are providing a very important service, at this point in time, given the current state of awareness on this planet. I must be honest and tell you that I foresee a time in which no animals are ever slaughtered for food, and you already know that I see, as a goal to aspire to, a planet that is entirely vegetarian.

And when this time arrives, maybe the lives of weeds and bugs will be in the forefront of peoples’ minds.

I will also be honest and say that I don't really understand the necessity for offering meat at all, when there is a profitable market for goat's milk, eggs, and organic produce. But, again, I see that as a continuum.

As far as the meat that I personally offer, it has to do with offering meat consumers with a sustainable, humane option. If there were not sustainable humanely raised meats for consumers to buy, they’d continue to support the old meat industry. Goat meat is extremely healthy, and goats are the most sustainable red meat (and possibly the most sustainable meat period). Goat meat is also a quickly growing market, and has helped us secure places in farmers’ markets we otherwise wouldn’t have gotten into with just eggs and produce. But honestly, we were guided to raise goats by divine sources (higher selves), and these reasons were discovered later.

In the meantime, farmers like you are providing a very important service, to raise awareness, in pursuit of that eventual goal. I realize that you might not agree with my vision of a vegetarian society, but I'm just explaining how I see your service as fitting into that picture, rather than being in opposition to it.

It’s not at all that I don’t agree with your vision of a vegetarian society; I definitely see it in the future. You might secretly think “that’s kind of hypocritical” :p, but with the amount of love and appreciation I have for my meat animals, I really don’t feel uncomfortable having meat in my diet. You might be happy to know that I only actually eat meat in 3-4 meals a week rather than 3 meals a day like many others. This particular existential quandary happened to come from the production of our produce, but this discussion has been therapeutic and has helped clear the air somewhat.

Maybe you will join with the other farmers and gardeners who are pioneering new techniques for working harmoniously with the plant and insect oversouls.

I had not considered this reality, and it does excite me.

There is a reason you aren't satisfied with killing bugs and weeds. Maybe it's to provide a catalyst for you to take your art to the next level, and lead the way for the rest of us.

Thank you so much, you have offered me a completely different view on my crisis. Maybe the heaviness I’ve felt lately was to remind me to keep this idea in the forefront of my mind, so when the time is right I will have the basic tools needed to help make some real changes in the way we look at weeds and bugs.

Blessings to you!

And to you! I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to type out such an incredible post. You’ve offered me some new perspectives to consider, and I’m able to relieve some of the weight on my heart. There is still much contemplation to do on my part, but this has been a very helpful discussion for me.

Adonai, Monica!

[BrownEye]

And choices they are, when alternatives to animal cruelty are offered and dismissed or belittled in the interest of self-preservation. That is, as you say, 100% STS.

The role of the consumer is not self preservation, it is more like self gratification. That is how the system programs us. Self preservation does not make a person think they need meat to be healthy, society tells them that.

Can’t 3D awareness come naturally, without interaction with 3D entities?

Possible if there were enough love from another source. But how would this happen? We see it in interspecie captive animals, but not so much wild animals. We really are the caretakers of the planet, we heal it or rape it.

The way I always understood 2D incarnation was that the soul incarnated into the same animal consciousness every time, until the biological pool became unviable or the entity was harvested.

My understanding came from questions of the inner self, not any book. Tracking the incarnations of my pets I found that they end up as the exact same species. Only one pet had made the jump to another larger animal, as a result of the caring I had given it.

I recently discovered (just last night in fact…) this is not the case for all breeds of chickens, but most I’ve encountered (a possum is able to kill every chicken in a chicken coop without a peep from the chickens).

With a little research you will find that specific traits can be bred into an animal within only a few generations.

I can see how a goat’s incarnation is more invested than an aphids in a sense, but couldn’t it also be true that the goat that is killed might also be instantly reincarnating as another goat?

It does, unless of course you have given it enough love for it to become aware of itself as an individual being. There has to be something to bump it out of its endless cycle, and when the secret behind the jump from 2D to 3D is love, just how large do you suppose that secret may be? These texts you guys rely on are only pointers, allowing for more structured thought to take place, as a way to find these secrets.

And when this time arrives, maybe the lives of weeds and bugs will be in the forefront of peoples’ minds.

We move forward in stages. When we have reached certain understandings and subsequent choices we then work on the next stage of decisions. As a whole we haven't even moved beyond the habit of consuming death believing it will bring us life.


My wife is a lifelong vegetarian, turned raw vegan. Things that we try to learn how to do has always been natural for her. When I bring up something new I experienced she says she thought everyone was like that. So many things that she can see, she just assumed we were all like that. One of those things is the life in a plant, and how it reacts to her. There is no fear or suffering, unless it wilts and dies for nothing. She can tell there is sadness emanating at that point. I grew up a dense meat eater, so having my awareness grow in so many ways makes the world seem new all over again in my eyes. I am actually getting into things I either did not believe in or made fun of. There is a whole new world out there for me.

[Monica]

Within this discussion I am seeking approval from myself above all else, and I knew that having this discussion would help (which it already has), so for that I thank you greatly.

Wonderful!

I knew what I was doing when I incarnated here; in a major sense, we all did. I can only imagine the fruits of the lessons learned by an awakened individual on this planet. I am very excited to carry these lessons with me throughout the cosmos as I walk the steps of light in service to others, sharing with them the craziness that was my 2D/3D environment!

Agreed! And yet, at the same time, I feel it is acceptable, and maybe even optimal, to resolve to make changes in any way I can.

I will agree that the industry seems to be completely STS. However, our opinion may differ on the individual farmers. They can see their animals suffer to a much greater extent than their consumers. They scoff at animal rights. I can love them and forgive them for their choices, but as has been talked about extensively on these forums: I don’t have to accept those choices. And choices they are, when alternatives to animal cruelty are offered and dismissed or belittled in the interest of self-preservation. That is, as you say, 100% STS.

We're not really disagreeing. I was just trying to give the farmers the benefit of the doubt and avoid sounding judgmental. You know about them more than I do.

I wish that 4D were here with full blown telepathy, because I truly want to share with you the amazing synchronistic energy I’ve experienced in my life the past six months regarding this very shift in consciousness you’re talking about (alas I don’t have the time). It brought tears to my eyes today, the good kind. I will have to elaborate at another time, perhaps in a thread dedicated to what I’ve been experiencing. Simply put, there has been an incredible shift in consumer consciousness regarding the production and treatment of their food. The numbers are incredible. The opportunities are incredible. My life, in regards to this very topic we are discussing right now, has been incredible.

That's wonderful!!!

This statement helps me realize even clearer the “step” process you’re describing. It makes me realize that possibly, my awareness might be slightly jumping ahead of the circumstances I incarnated to help change, at least at this stage of my life.

That is a profound realization!

Your consciousness may indeed be ahead of your stated mission.

I feel that tossing that caterpillar was hardly an infringement. I think the beautiful thing is you didn’t squash it with your boot and go “yuck” as you wiped its guts on the grass.

Yeah, that was one lucky caterpillar!

I’ve had similar luck with wasps and such, especially this year. In fact, on an ironically similar note, I recently expressed to the universe an interest in keeping honey bees. Two weeks later, after thinking about it a lot and wondering where I could find a starter queen/hive, a hive of honey bees migrated onto my property! (Luckily, completely out of the way of any disturbance.) Now I just need to find the time to learn ALL about beekeeping. I hope they stick around for a while.

Oh wow! A few months ago, there were LOTS of bees in my yard! And I started this thread.
Now, there's not a single bee to be found! I keep feeling the 'beekeeper' role tugging at me!

Please tell me, what weeds are edible!?

Oh gosh, LOTS! I will post another post about this. No time right now.

(And I’ll pray they grow here!) I’ve found myself thinking very often to myself, “why can’t lettuce and cabbage and kale grow as prolifically as these weeds…hunger would be eliminated!”

Exactly!

I wouldn’t have too much trouble experimenting with edible weeds, but it is the invasive ones that will affect my production and I must control fastidiously, as well as the bugs.

More on this later!

I have also heard that this is the key, allowing them a certain part or number of the crops. I have my own communication methods of doing this, with mixed results (some weeks it seems to work and some weeks my leafy greens have more holes than swiss cheese). We’re still expanding the garden, so hopefully soon we’ll have enough to offer the buggers. Unfortunately, at this point, we have to keep up enough production for two farmers’ markets AND feed ourselves, so we harvest everything we can every week.

Again, I am just a novice. But I encourage you to check out the books I will post....will post later, maybe tomorrow.

To be continued...

For now, abridgetoofar, I just want to say how very much I appreciate the LOVE that you and I are able to share!

[Monica]

The role of the consumer is not self preservation, it is more like self gratification. That is how the system programs us. Self preservation does not make a person think they need meat to be healthy, society tells them that.

Very true.

Can’t 3D awareness come naturally, without interaction with 3D entities?

Possible if there were enough love from another source. But how would this happen? We see it in interspecie captive animals, but not so much wild animals. We really are the caretakers of the planet, we heal it or rape it.

Agreed. Caretakers, yes. Unfortunately that line in the Bible about "take dominion over the Earth" has given plenty of people justification (in their minds) to rape the Earth and think of animals as 'things' rather than beings.

The way I always understood 2D incarnation was that the soul incarnated into the same animal consciousness every time, until the biological pool became unviable or the entity was harvested.

My understanding came from questions of the inner self, not any book. Tracking the incarnations of my pets I found that they end up as the exact same species. Only one pet had made the jump to another larger animal, as a result of the caring I had given it.

I've had cats come back as cats, and dogs come back as dogs. I'm pretty sure I had a dog come back as a cat once! Although I cannot say with certainty. But that cat sure did act like the dog, and even played with the other dogs in the same way that the departed dog used to!

However, our observation of our companion animals is based on a very short time period, so I don't think it can be used to form any conclusions. We simply don't have any way of knowing how many times that dog was a bee, slug or frog before incarnating as a dog!

Based on my understanding of Ra's words about our sojourn thru the densities, I feel very strongly that we have all been various plants and creatures at some point, but 2D life is more like a pool. So when an individual dandelion dies, its soul merges with all other dandelions, like pouring a cup of water back into the ocean.

At some point in higher 2D, usually in an animal body, that individual becomes self-aware, and its divine spark individuates from the pool. This is much more likely to happen with a higher 2D animal, than an ant or aphid.

I see no reason why goats can't incarnate as cats, and in fact I think of that as a given, just as humans might incarnate as a different ethnicity.

The idea that 'goats are always goats and dogs are always dogs' comes from the Biblical creation story, in which God supposedly created each species of animal, and animals always stay animals. (My Bible-believing friends are usually appalled whenever I suggest that a cat might be human some day...considering themselves 'above' such 'lower' creatures is just another form of elitism.)

So, we have the Biblical version, saying that animals live 1 life and have no soul. Then there is the Evolution version, that says consciousness arose from biology, and each species evolves on its own track.

What does the Law of One say? That souls evolve through the densities, incarnating into whichever physical vehicle that suits their soul's needs at that time.

These texts you guys rely on are only pointers, allowing for more structured thought to take place, as a way to find these secrets.

Good point! Even the Law of One is a pointer to the knowledge and wisdom that lies within, and is accessible via meditation.

We move forward in stages. When we have reached certain understandings and subsequent choices we then work on the next stage of decisions. As a whole we haven't even moved beyond the habit of consuming death believing it will bring us life.

Exactly! Such a fundamental concept!

My wife is a lifelong vegetarian, turned raw vegan. Things that we try to learn how to do has always been natural for her. When I bring up something new I experienced she says she thought everyone was like that. So many things that she can see, she just assumed we were all like that. One of those things is the life in a plant, and how it reacts to her. There is no fear or suffering, unless it wilts and dies for nothing. She can tell there is sadness emanating at that point. I grew up a dense meat eater, so having my awareness grow in so many ways makes the world seem new all over again in my eyes. I am actually getting into things I either did not believe in or made fun of. There is a whole new world out there for me.

Thank you for sharing this! Quite profound!

[Bring4th_Austin]

The role of the consumer is not self preservation, it is more like self gratification. That is how the system programs us. Self preservation does not make a person think they need meat to be healthy, society tells them that.

I was not referring to the consumer, but rather to the farmer. The farmers' actions of inhumane animal treatment and denial of human animal treatment is in the interest of self-preservation. There's no question in my mind about that. There much more money and much less work in inhumane animal treatment. The same goes with organic produce growing, and sustainable environmental practices. None of these things matter to the "big" farmer, just their wallets.

Can’t 3D awareness come naturally, without interaction with 3D entities?

Possible if there were enough love from another source. But how would this happen? We see it in interspecie captive animals, but not so much wild animals. We really are the caretakers of the planet, we heal it or rape it.

How does a planet make the jump from 2D to 3D without a 3D population already on the planet? I recall Ra saying that 3D entities instilling love into 2D entities was one way the graduation was made, but not the only way.

I recently discovered (just last night in fact…) this is not the case for all breeds of chickens, but most I’ve encountered (a possum is able to kill every chicken in a chicken coop without a peep from the chickens).

With a little research you will find that specific traits can be bred into an animal within only a few generations.

I'm well aware of this, it doesn't change the argument. If the trait is already bred into the chicken before it incarnates, if it is indeed choosing to incarnate in that way, it is aware of the trait and accepts it.

I can see how a goat’s incarnation is more invested than an aphids in a sense, but couldn’t it also be true that the goat that is killed might also be instantly reincarnating as another goat?

It does, unless of course you have given it enough love for it to become aware of itself as an individual being. There has to be something to bump it out of its endless cycle, and when the secret behind the jump from 2D to 3D is love, just how large do you suppose that secret may be?

Then is the same thing not true about an aphid?

And when this time arrives, maybe the lives of weeds and bugs will be in the forefront of peoples’ minds.

We move forward in stages. When we have reached certain understandings and subsequent choices we then work on the next stage of decisions. As a whole we haven't even moved beyond the habit of consuming death believing it will bring us life.

The whole topic of the discussion was the fact that consuming vegetables is not avoiding the slaughter of 2D beings, and not just the 2D beings which are being consumed. My heart is jumping around on the subject, and I've that to make progress in this society I should subscribe to the "step" system that makes logical sense to the others I am incarnated with. To me, consuming death happens in my garden as well as my goat herd. Monica helped me see a couple different perspectives on this.

My wife is a lifelong vegetarian, turned raw vegan. Things that we try to learn how to do has always been natural for her. When I bring up something new I experienced she says she thought everyone was like that. So many things that she can see, she just assumed we were all like that. One of those things is the life in a plant, and how it reacts to her. There is no fear or suffering, unless it wilts and dies for nothing. She can tell there is sadness emanating at that point. I grew up a dense meat eater, so having my awareness grow in so many ways makes the world seem new all over again in my eyes. I am actually getting into things I either did not believe in or made fun of. There is a whole new world out there for me.

The awareness I gained was the fact that there were many, MANY more plants that "wilt and die" for nothing due to the organic vegetable industry. Just because the plants she's eating didn't wilt and die, it doesn't mean that there weren't thousands of weeds and bugs slaughtered to bring her those vegetables.

[Monica]

Please tell me, what weeds are edible!? (And I’ll pray they grow here!) I’ve found myself thinking very often to myself, “why can’t lettuce and cabbage and kale grow as prolifically as these weeds…hunger would be eliminated!” I wouldn’t have too much trouble experimenting with edible weeds, but it is the invasive ones that will affect my production and I must control fastidiously, as well as the bugs.

Aha! Found the posts:

The Corkboard > LIVING foods and Gardening...Cooperating with Devas

Be sure to click on the link for the list of books also!

I have also heard that this is the key, allowing them a certain part or number of the crops. I have my own communication methods of doing this, with mixed results (some weeks it seems to work and some weeks my leafy greens have more holes than swiss cheese). We’re still expanding the garden, so hopefully soon we’ll have enough to offer the buggers. Unfortunately, at this point, we have to keep up enough production for two farmers’ markets AND feed ourselves, so we harvest everything we can every week.

I can't speak from experience yet, but I am very encouraged by what I've read so far, from those who are ahead of us in this endeavor.

Be sure to see pages 387-400 of John Kallas' book (listed in the link above) for inspiration about creating a market for wild edibles and how to maintain a semi-wild garden. I just love the idea!

There are some vendors that sell dandelion greens at the markets here, I never thought twice about it! Thanks for this information, I’ll have to learn how to take advantage of this. Consumers are moving very rapidly in the direction of sustainable “green” food, produce and meat. I can only imagine things like this will only become more popular.

Yes, it's very exciting! And there are lots of other weeds besides dandelions, that consumers would appreciate, once they got educated. Some good examples are purslane, lamb's quarters and sorrel. Oh, but there are many more! Those books will absolutely blow your mind!

I am also a novice. I only started the full-time farm thing a few months ago (after doing it part time for about a year), taking over a lot of responsibility from my parents’ brand new farm. They seemed to bite off more than they could chew (my dad still works full time and my mom can’t do much in the way of hard labor), and now I’m doing most of the work XD. I’m learning a whole lot very fast and will take any advice from any level gardener!

I'm impressed!

Check out this guy:

http://homesweetfarm.com/

I saw an interview with him in which he said factory farmers don't even eat their own animals, because they're freaks!

We are dedicated to sustainable farming, with the mantra of “do more with less.” This idea of edible weeds is golden for us and I will definitely investigate it more. Thank you for the inspiration!

Just passing it on!

Can’t 3D awareness come naturally, without interaction with 3D entities? I cannot recall a specific Ra comment about this, but how else would a planet gain 3D entities without already existing 3D entities? Wouldn’t it be possible, if aphid consciousness were left completely in the hands of 2D nature for millions/possibly billions of years of evolution, it would become self-aware? This may not be as much of a counter-point as a simple point.

I don't know. See my response to Pickle.

Your opinions, if I could just simply make them my own, would be very beneficial to me (not to say this discussion hasn’t already been helpful). Are you referring to a specific Ra transcription, or the Ra material in general?

Ra material in general, specifically what was said about 2D consciousness, as well as Edgar Cayce material, which correlates somewhat.

I definitely will say that a goat or a chicken have much more apparent personality than an aphid. They interact with each other and with nature in ways I would never imagine a bug doing. Is this a factor you personally use to determine level of self-awareness?

No. Nor is it my task to determine level of self-awareness.

Simple observation tells us that 'higher' 2D animals (cows, dogs, birds, etc.) have varying degrees of self-awareness. Have you ever watched a mockingbird taunt a cat? That bird knows exactly what it's doing! It's teasing. Many wild animals have been observed exhibiting behavior that indicates personality.

I know that these animals are self-aware.

I don't know that the aphids aren't. So I am suggesting that we start with what we know, and then head in the direction of expanding our understanding.

---

The way I always understood 2D incarnation was that the soul incarnated into the same animal consciousness every time, until the biological pool became unviable or the entity was harvested. I think I drew this understanding from Ra, but I could very well be wrong about it. I will try to find some verification, otherwise, we’re both just admittedly speculating.

I don't see how the soul could evolve if it stayed in the same species every times. That makes no sense to me at all.

I’ve used the example of the chickens’ inherent docile state at night in this thread (or the one on The Responsibility of Participation). Does a chicken choosing to incarnate into that condition mean the chicken is okay with being killed, if only at night?

I don't think so.

Remember that the chicken is awake and aware, but does not fight or flee in the face of danger. I recently discovered (just last night in fact…) this is not the case for all breeds of chickens, but most I’ve encountered (a possum is able to kill every chicken in a chicken coop without a peep from the chickens).

Maybe it's as Pickle suggested: breeding. Are there any wild birds that are docile at night, or just chickens? Breeding can predispose animals to certain characteristics. I don't know what the mechanism is in this case, but I think there must surely be some mechanism at work here.

Probably something to do with herd mentality. Even humans do stupid things when they are part of a herd.

Our differing theories on 2D incarnation render this particular point rather difficult to discuss. Is a carrot really choosing to incarnate as a carrot, or is it doing so because that is where its soul originated: carrot mass consciousness? Will a carrot know it will incarnate into a garden or into the wild? What about a goat, or a chicken? When I have some time I will try to find some conclusive answers on the nature of 2D incarnation.

I absolutely don't accept the limitation of a species. That, in my opinion, goes against what Ra has taught us about consciousness. The 3D body is just a vehicle. Souls can choose different types of vehicles.

I can see how a goat’s incarnation is more invested than an aphids in a sense, but couldn’t it also be true that the goat that is killed might also be instantly reincarnating as another goat? The goat might be more able to interact with its environment, more able to flee death, but if an aphid were aware it were about to die, would it really be more okay with it than the goat?

We really don't know much about aphids. But we do know a lot about goats. We have to start somewhere.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that it's 'ok' to kill aphids.

And wouldn’t using the aphid’s lack of awareness as justification to kill it be similar to killing a goat in its sleep?

I never suggested justifying the killing of aphids. I suggested working towards gardening methods that don't kill bugs at all. But before we can do that, we must raise awareness about what is obvious: the massive suffering of animals whom we know are aware.

I'd like to point out a distinction between momentary awareness, as in being awake vs asleep, and awareness when used to denote consciousness. The terms consciousness and self-awareness have been used interchangeably, which is ok, but when the 'self-' is dropped from 'self-awareness' leaving only 'awareness' it gets confusing.

A human has consciousness; ie. self-awareness. That fact doesn't change when he's asleep. I'm referring to the status of his soul's awareness, not whether his body is awake or asleep at that moment.

Killing a goat in his sleep is no different from killing a goat when he's awake, just as killing a human who's awake is no different from killing a human who's sleeping.

[Monica]

I cannot thank you enough for this statement. The idea was dancing around in my consciousness without coming forward, and it helps to alleviate much of the weight on my heart.

I'm so happy to hear that!

And not necessarily because of the hierarchy you describe, which I admit I will probably still wrestle with, but because it helps me realize that to get to the point where I will not have to slaughter bugs, I might just have to slaughter a few. In a grand sense, these bugs are offering their incarnation to this very purpose.

In this context, I can go along with that. (As opposed to the flippant justification for eating animals, which I hear frequently: "Oh it's their purpose to let us kill them and eat them" which is an entirely different matter.)

And when this time arrives, maybe the lives of weeds and bugs will be in the forefront of peoples’ minds.

Exactly!

As far as the meat that I personally offer, it has to do with offering meat consumers with a sustainable, humane option. If there were not sustainable humanely raised meats for consumers to buy, they’d continue to support the old meat industry.

I understand. At this point in time, it is true that most of them would continue to support factory farming, rather than give up their meat. So your service is worthwhile, being that this is where society is at.

I envision a time when, due to education, raising of consciousness, or maybe just environmental or health necessity, people will choose to go vegetarian, rather than support factory farming.

It’s not at all that I don’t agree with your vision of a vegetarian society; I definitely see it in the future. You might secretly think “that’s kind of hypocritical” :p,

No, never once did that thought enter my mind! I don't think you're being hypocritical at all. In fact, I have immense respect for your obvious sincerity and endeavor to improve the animals', plants' and even bugs' conditions.

You might be happy to know that I only actually eat meat in 3-4 meals a week rather than 3 meals a day like many others. This particular existential quandary happened to come from the production of our produce, but this discussion has been therapeutic and has helped clear the air somewhat.

My M.O. in this discussion is to avoid offering my personal opinions about anyone's diet. That's a slippery slope! and I'd rather not go there. It's not my place to approve or disapprove of anyone.

I will say that, if everyone cut back to 3 times a week instead of 3 times a day, we'd see vast improvements in health and the environment. Not to mention a drastic reduction in violence.

Maybe you will join with the other farmers and gardeners who are pioneering new techniques for working harmoniously with the plant and insect oversouls.

I had not considered this reality, and it does excite me.

Cool!

Thank you so much, you have offered me a completely different view on my crisis. Maybe the heaviness I’ve felt lately was to remind me to keep this idea in the forefront of my mind, so when the time is right I will have the basic tools needed to help make some real changes in the way we look at weeds and bugs.

And to you! I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to type out such an incredible post. You’ve offered me some new perspectives to consider, and I’m able to relieve some of the weight on my heart. There is still much contemplation to do on my part, but this has been a very helpful discussion for me.

Adonai, Monica!

Adonai!