In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

Similarly, humans and their domestic animals have a symbiotic relationship that has evolved over millennia.

Can you explain how the animals on factory farms have a 'symbiotic' relationship with their tormentors and executioners?

In fact, cows, chickens, and others no longer exist in the wild. I'm not sure if you'll find this compelling or not, but if humans stop raising and eating cattle, the number of cattle on the planet is likely to decline drastically.

The mainstream evolutionary view might consider the numbers of a species important, but we know that entities can incarnate into whatever physical vehicles meet their needs. A particular species is less important, in light of this. Far more important, in my opinion, is the quality of life, and the quality of the incarnative experience.

The huge number of cattle and chickens currently incarnate is abnormal. And they have no lives, only torture. It's an abomination.

Research done by Allen Savory and others in southern Africa and the American southwest has shown that grasslands and other environments attain their optimal health only in the presence of large herds of herbivores and their predators. Many ranchers and farmers (including myself in a very small way) are attempting to improve their land by managing their animals in such a way as to mimic the behavior of wild herds. I believe that restoring the great herds and their predators, such as the bison and the wolves, will go a long way towards healing the earth and will, in fact, be one of the early focuses of fourth density here.

Sure, I'm cool with that. I just don't think humans are natural predators of these animals and we should get out of their way.

---

For Tenet:

Forks Over Knives

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Interestingly, as many months as this thread has been active, and as many times other vegetarians and I have invited people to get educated about the meat industry, no one has responded by telling us that they actually watched the videos. I wonder how anyone can claim to have an opinion about something, they haven't bothered to learn about!

So here they are again:

Standard Life of Broiler Chickens

Meet Your Meat Part 1

Meet Your Meat Part 2

I invite all those who think eating animals is ok, to actually watch these videos, in their entirety, and then think about whether you still feel the same way.

[BrownEye]

In fact, cows, chickens, and others no longer exist in the wild.

Did they ever? What we have are domesticated animals bred for specifics. If you want to know where chickens came from look up junglefowl. If for some reason the domesticated chicken disapeared they would just grab a few junglefowl and start over.

There are 12 species of Wild Cattle (tribe Bovini) in the world but several have either been entirely domesticated or else hunted to extinction.
I don't think they just died off on their own

There was a comment elsewhere on the forum that applied to this. Something about negative polarity pushing enslavement. If you look at the status of the flesh industry it is full enslavement.

[Oceania]

OK I gotta go feed the cats and change their litter box since, in my caring for them, they would be completely helpless if left out in nature.

Most probably thanks to your care they would be able to graduate to 3d, hopefully however, in a nicer planet...

that's what i'm hoping for mine. a nicer 3D planet. hopefully when we're 4D we can look over them and stuff.

[_X7]

Good polarities of discussion here.... We are given a developed globe of resources, states of matter and starter seeds. What do we make with all of this? Can we co-create harmonies or do we trump it all with STS delusions? To ignore how much clean water and discordant energy is wasted. It is more STO to seek and experiment for a harmonious whole, life as one. There is utterly no way to feed 7 billion humans any professed meat diet. Feed countless carnivorous pets also? Is this love? By clear cutting the amazon to grow plant proteins to grow meat sources, to wage war for gluttonous diets, killing off oceans, proliferate toxicity, etc.... Then just say "we tried so hard". I have lived the pastoral life too, but admitted that we need to reflect all ramifications of what we profess. Multiplied by 7 billion fellow humans incarnate.

[Oceania]

feeding pets is tricky. i'm a vegetarian but my kitty isn't. and i wouldn't deny him a meat diet, i wish people would become vegetarian and al the meat production went into ethical lines to make food for pets.

[_X7]

Agreed, being-food is tricky and food for thought besides. Getting stuck in old habits of old traditions tricks the 'harvest'. Getting pets to try new things is hard too, but they do watch and wait on our every turn. Working on pet projects to "save the world" or to "improve the harvest" may benefit from tricks renewed. May we use self-depricating-humor wisely and consider a diet's effect on the harvest.

[Monica]

Good polarities of discussion here.... We are given a developed globe of resources, states of matter and starter seeds. What do we make with all of this? Can we co-create harmonies or do we trump it all with STS delusions?

Well said!

To ignore how much clean water and discordant energy is wasted.

Would you ever open your refrigerator, pull out 16 plates of pasta, toss 15 in the trash, and then eat just one plate of food? How about leveling 55 square feet of rain forest for a single meal or dumping 2,400 gallons of water down the drain? Of course you wouldn't. But if you're eating chickens, fish, turkeys, pigs, cows, milk, or eggs, that's what you're doing—wasting resources and destroying our environment.

from http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-...nment.aspx

It is more STO to seek and experiment for a harmonious whole, life as one.

That seems like a no-brainer to me.

There is utterly no way to feed 7 billion humans any professed meat diet.

Absolutely TRUE. This isn't opinion; it's fact.

And even with 'humane' farming methods, it still won't work. Think about it: Why has the meat industry adopted these atrocious factory farming methods? Why are chickens crowded to tightly that they can't even move? Why are chickens and cows fattened up to obscene sizes with hormones?

To increase production.

They do this to keep up with demand and increase profits. 'Humane' farms can't keep up. Even if all the farms and ranches switched to 'humane' methods, it would be impossible, yes, impossible, to raise enough animals to feed the population.

Doesn't that tell us something?

Feed countless carnivorous pets also? Is this love? By clear cutting the amazon to grow plant proteins to grow meat sources, to wage war for gluttonous diets, killing off oceans, proliferate toxicity, etc.... Then just say "we tried so hard". I have lived the pastoral life too, but admitted that we need to reflect all ramifications of what we profess. Multiplied by 7 billion fellow humans incarnate.

A recent United Nations report concluded that a global shift toward a vegan diet is necessary to combat the worst effects of climate change. And the U.N. is not alone in its analysis. Researchers at the University of Chicago concluded that switching from a standard American diet to a vegan diet is more effective in the fight against climate change than switching from a standard American car to a hybrid. And a German study conducted in 2008 concluded that a meat-eater's diet is responsible for more than seven times as much greenhouse-gas emissions as a vegan's diet is. The verdict is in: If you care about the environment, one of the single most effective things that you can do to save it is to adopt a vegan diet.

According to Environmental Defense, if every American skipped one meal of chicken per week and substituted vegetarian foods instead, the carbon dioxide savings would be the same as taking more than half a million cars off U.S. roads.

from http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-...nment.aspx

The argument of "well vegetarians kill plants!" is completely moot, being that far more plants are killed to clear land for grazing animals, as well as feed the animals.

According to the United Nations, raising animals for food (including land used for grazing and land used to grow feed crops) now uses a staggering 30 percent of the Earth's land mass. More than 260 million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to create cropland to grow grain to feed farmed animals, and according to scientists at the Smithsonian Institution, the equivalent of seven football fields of land is bulldozed worldwide every minute to create more room for farmed animals.

Livestock grazing is the number one reason that plant species in the United States become threatened and go extinct, and it also leads to soil erosion and eventual desertification that renders once-fertile land barren.

While factory farms are ruining our land, commercial fishing methods such as bottom trawling and long-lining have virtually emptied millions of square miles of ocean and pushed many marine species to the brink of extinction. Commercial fishing boats indiscriminately pull as many fish as they can out of the sea, leaving ecological devastation and the bodies of nontarget animals in their wake.

from http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-...urces.aspx

In light of this, the best way to reduce the killing of plants, is to quit eating animals!

It takes more than 11 times as much fossil fuel to make one calorie from animal protein as it does to make one calorie from plant protein.

...Nearly half of all the water used in the United States goes to raising animals for food.

Knowing what we know, it's simply reprehensible to continue supporting this destructive industry. It's raping our Mother.

In light of all this, how can eating meat be justified? Oh, because we "like the taste"? Don't we have a responsibility to take better care of this beautiful planet we've been entrusted with, and all her creatures? How can we expect to transition to 4D, with this foulness taking place? Taking all these environmental facts alone, without even considering animal suffering, it's an atrocity.

Furthermore, it's simply not sustainable. Unless we all go poof next year, we are leaving an enormous mess to our children and grandchildren.. They will be forced to all go vegan, just to survive. They won't have the choice everyone speaks so fondly of. And it might even be too late for them.

I've heard Christian pastors proclaim that there was no need to be concerned about the environment, because "God gave us the Earth to take dominion over" and "Jesus is coming back soon anyway." I can't help but wonder if this religious programming is still playing in the minds of many people, even though they've left Christianity behind.

Could we have just traded the Christian version of rapture ("Jesus is coming back soon so go ahead and destroy the planet") with a New Age version? ("We will all go poof in the next year, to 4D, so the 3D planet doesn't matter.")

There is much controversy about whether or not we'll be going poof in the next year. Can anyone really say with 100% certainty that we won't be here after 2012? Although some Ra quotes suggest that, we're told by Q'uo that some of us will stick around, to heal the planet...during a transition that may last as long as 700 years!

If this is true, then it's utterly impossible - yes, impossible - to sustain a population with the current system. Unless one is banking on most of the population being wiped out, and even then, is it really justifiable to destroy so much plant life and fragile ecosystems, just to satisfy a lust for flesh?

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but we've been going round and round for months now, and I really think the main points are being missed. People are continuing to argue...what? What exactly is being argued?

That it's ok to eat animals because, well, animals eat animals

That it's ok to eat animals because eating plants is cruel too, so we might as well be cruel to animals

That it's ok to eat animals because that's how the Logos designed it and who are we to question that?

That it's ok to eat animals because vegans are zealots and hypocrites

That it's ok to eat animals because we still have some leftover teeth that used to be fangs (never mind that they're now dull and no longer fangs)

That it's ok to eat animals because global warming is a myth

That it's ok to eat animals if they're treated well before they're killed

That we might as well keep eating animals since our dogs and cats do and we have no right to make them vegetarians


That pretty much sums up the opposing viewpoints, as far as I can tell.

[unity100]

Monica, what's you're view on mice. We've had a number of them get into our home, chew up walls and clothing and leave a lot of mess. We had to lay down poison for them.

I googled the spiritual implications of killing them, and found that in Islam it's ok to do so, and recommended: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2896

- Thomas

in islam, its ok to kill many things, including people.

THIS planet is positive.

This planet is having a very difficult birth to STO positive. I wouldn't say it has been positive up until now, and it's still not positive now. How can it be positive with all the violence still happening?

this planet is not positive. it has been told that 'events had put this planet in a positive time/space continuum'. and, it would be a positive planet at the end of the harvest. more than a few times, this planet was told to be of negative orientation in regard to its third density society. it was at no point told to be a positive planet.

This also is of interest I think. A tree can make the jump to a dog? Or am I reading this wrong? So a dog is 3D?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius

...[...]Sirius is also known colloquially as the "Dog Star", reflecting its prominence in its constellation, Canis Major (Greater Dog).[11] The heliacal rising of Sirius marked the flooding of the Nile in Ancient Egypt and the "dog days" of summer for the ancient Greeks, while to the Polynesians it marked winter and was an important star for navigation around the Pacific Ocean.[...]

no such limitations. souls can incarnate in any proper body found at that nexus apparently. moreover, ra had had said that most higher 2d body types were already capable of offering 3d experiences.

feeding pets is tricky. i'm a vegetarian but my kitty isn't. and i wouldn't deny him a meat diet, i wish people would become vegetarian and al the meat production went into ethical lines to make food for pets.

cats love cheese variants. yoghurt is especially vital for them, since it has quite a good effects on their digestive system.

[βαθμιαίος]

Can you explain how the animals on factory farms have a 'symbiotic' relationship with their tormentors and executioners?

I'm not talking about factory farms.

[unity100]

Can you explain how the animals on factory farms have a 'symbiotic' relationship with their tormentors and executioners?

I'm not talking about factory farms.

however factory farms, are just the situation (philosophical situation) that already is there on this planet in regard to the biosphere, taken to extreme.

[βαθμιαίος]

however factory farms, are just the situation (philosophical situation) that already is there on this planet in regard to the biosphere, taken to extreme.

I don't agree. Factory farms are largely exploitative. The biosphere is cooperative.

[Oceania]

Gemini, i think you have to look in yourself to know if you want to kill mice. no religion is going to tell you what the answer is. personally i think one shouldn't kill mice, but i can understand people do what they feel they must. i've killed bugs thinking it was the only option but i regret that. if you're searching for religions that give permission to kill i think you're looking for a get out of jail card because there's a part of you nagging that it's not right. so i'd look at that part of you and contemplate. also, i think chewed up clothes isn't enough reason to kill a mouse for. i mean, maybe you could store your clothes in a place the mice can't get to? i think there are other options.
Monica, what do you suggest pets eat then, if not meat? i'm not for meat eating but i don't know what else to feed a pet who is carnivorous by nature. some say it's pet abuse to put them on a vegetarian diet. although some have done that. but i haven't looked into it much.

[Aaron]

Gemini, i think you have to look in yourself to know if you want to kill mice. no religion is going to tell you what the answer is. personally i think one shouldn't kill mice, but i can understand people do what they feel they must. i've killed bugs thinking it was the only option but i regret that. if you're searching for religions that give permission to kill i think you're looking for a get out of jail card because there's a part of you nagging that it's not right. so i'd look at that part of you and contemplate. also, i think chewed up clothes isn't enough reason to kill a mouse for. i mean, maybe you could store your clothes in a place the mice can't get to? i think there are other options.
Monica, what do you suggest pets eat then, if not meat? i'm not for meat eating but i don't know what else to feed a pet who is carnivorous by nature. some say it's pet abuse to put them on a vegetarian diet. although some have done that. but i haven't looked into it much.

I know it was directed at Monica, but I'll answer... If you have a snake, for example, that eats only meat and is built to eat only meat, you must feed it meat in order for it to continue to survive. There's no choice involved there. The choice for the animal is in potentiation. It hasn't evolved to a point of self awareness to be able to make the choice of diet. On pets where you would have a choice, (omnivorous animals) the choice is made by you and reflects on your own polarity. Because you can't choose for another being, pet or not, the choice is made as if you're feeding an extension of yourself, the portion of your pet that you imagine to be able to care about its health or the planet's standing or the welfare of animals.

[Monica]

Monica, what do you suggest pets eat then, if not meat? i'm not for meat eating but i don't know what else to feed a pet who is carnivorous by nature. some say it's pet abuse to put them on a vegetarian diet. although some have done that. but i haven't looked into it much.

Remember when I said it's not a game of "who's the purest of us all"? I am trying to find my way thru this maze, just like everyone else.

I've been a vegetarian for nearly 30 years, but, until recently, felt strongly that we had no right to require our cats and dogs to go veg, since they are obviously carnivorous animals. (No argument on those teeth!)

I had mixed feelings about my vegan friends who buy veg. dog food, and doubts that it would be nutritionally adequate for dogs and cats, whose anatomy is obviously designed for meat. It's not so much about the nutritional profile, as it is in how the food is digested. The veg. dog food has the same nutritional profile as the ones containing meat, but that doesn't mean it's digested the same by the animal. I'm not sure dogs and cats can handle that much cooked soy and grains, when in the wild they don't get much soy or grains (just what's in the stomach of the animals they kill).

So, I've had my doubts about it. I readily confess that I've been buying dog food and cat food, though I do get the 'better' quality brands (which means nothing really as far as the issue is concerned).

(Do I need to start dodging arrows now?)

I do supplement with raw, free-range eggs, and organic cheese, as well as veggie leftovers, which they love. But I didn't have the confidence to attempt to feed them on veggie foods alone, even with eggs and cheese.

Interestingly, as I relayed earlier on this thread, I've noticed that my cats and dogs are no longer interested in eating mice or birds. (Even the dogs showed no interest in the freshly-killed mouse that I rescued, too late, from the cats.) I find this curious and highly significant, and encouraging!

Then, I read Ani Phyo's account of her dog who eats only raw vegan...and I am now wondering whether the foods being raw are what makes the difference. In other words, maybe dogs and cats won't thrive on a cooked vegan diet, but might on a raw vegan diet?

And, actually, do we even know that they won't thrive on a cooked vegan diet? And why must it be vegan? I have major issues with the commercial dairy and egg industries, but I don't have any issues with free-range eggs, or with milk products, provided they are from free-range cows and not just labeled 'organic' which means nothing about how the cows were treated. ('Organic' just means no hormones, so the milk is healthier, but means nothing about how the cows were treated. Even 'organic' dairies typically are very cruel to the cows.)

So, this thread is helping me to refine what I'm doing also. I have been feeding my dogs more and more veggie foods, mostly raw but also some cooked. I'm adding more eggs for the protein, so they they won't need to rely on the commercial dog food. I'm thinking that they will need a transitional period. What I'm planning to do at this point is give them more and more of our own foods, with free-range eggs and dairy supplemented, and just monitor how they do. I also plan to ask some of my vegan friends to tell me honestly how old their dogs are, how long they've been vegan, etc. I figure if they've been successful with feeding them vegan kibble, then I ought to be successful giving them vegan kibble, supplemented with eggs, dairy, and the normal foods we eat every day.

My dogs love to lick up leftover guacamole. Yesterday one of my dogs chewed happily on a carrot that had fallen on the floor and ate about half of it. And just now, both dogs went nuts over some raw chips I'd made, which had raw corn and yellow bell peppers. I never dreamed my dogs would like bell peppers! There was nothing else in the recipe except some spices. Yet they kept harrassing me, begging for more! They acted the way I used to see dogs act, when I was a kid, when my parents had the innards of chickens or pigeons they'd butchered. Cats and dogs used to go nuts over that stuff. But I can't help but wonder if our pets, anyway, are evolving too. Maybe 4D vibrations are affecting them too...?

So bottom line is, I'm not perfect as far as feeding my dogs and cats. I'm still wrestling with that one. But I've changed my mind about whether they can be vegetarian. Even just a few months ago, I would have said no. Now, I think they can. I keep getting more and more confirmation that they can, so I am now working towards that.

[Oceania]

cool, i would love to work towards that too. i guess i could try to feed my kitty some things and see how he does but he is picky. i agree about the cooked vegetables, those aren't good for anyone. if you listen to David Wolfe. he should do a book on animal veganism. i think not only 4D but the change in diet is affecting your pets, if they eat less meat and more veggies, i imagine their "bloodlust" goes away. at least as i understand it, a no-meat diet makes one less violent cuz they don't consume the fear of the animal in question. and bell peppers are nice! they're so juicy and delicious. i wish they'd say how the animals were treated in organic products. :/ i don't wanna drink milk anymore either but it's really hard to give up, since it's in *everything*. i think that's the hardest thing to give up lol.

[unity100]

I don't agree. Factory farms are largely exploitative. The biosphere is cooperative.

'cooperative' in what sense ?

one eats the other. it is not a mutually beneficial relationship.

[Monica]

cool, i would love to work towards that too. i guess i could try to feed my kitty some things and see how he does but he is picky.

Oh yes, cats are much more finicky than dogs! Please let me know how your cat does! I'm starting with my dogs first.

i agree about the cooked vegetables, those aren't good for anyone. if you listen to David Wolfe. he should do a book on animal veganism.

What does he say to do for dogs and cats? Do you happen to have a link to an interview with him on this subject?

i think not only 4D but the change in diet is affecting your pets, if they eat less meat and more veggies, i imagine their "bloodlust" goes away. at least as i understand it, a no-meat diet makes one less violent cuz they don't consume the fear of the animal in question.

I definitely believe that to be true. (NOT saying that all meat-eating humans are violent!!) Awhile back, I held my nose and actually tried giving my dogs raw dog food, which came in frozen patties and had raw meat, raw eggs, fruits, veggies etc. They got noticeably more aggressive when they ate that food!

It was supposedly much healthier for them, but I just couldn't help but feel it was making them go backwards. So I quit. I figured if they were getting close to being human, I sure don't want to give them raw meat! It was bad enough that I was giving them cooked meat in the form of regular dog food.

and bell peppers are nice! they're so juicy and delicious. i wish they'd say how the animals were treated in organic products. :/

With eggs the main thing is that they're free range, which usually goes together with hormone-free. I really see no reason to ever give up eggs, if you like eggs and are able to get free-range. It's a great way to get animal protein without killing an animal, for those who feel they still need animal protein. But commercial eggs are horrid! Egg-laying hens are horribly abused and the eggs are full of hormones, antibiotics, etc. as well as have a lot more cholesterol than free-range eggs. Many farmers' markets now carry free-range eggs, as well as health food stores like Whole Foods Market of course. It's usually pretty easy to find them, at least in my area. If nothing else, try craigslist and find someone to barter with. But I think it's really important to not support the vile commercial egg industry.

It's much trickier with milk and cheese products. The only way to know for sure is to call the company and ask some very pointed questions about their dairy. See if they'll send you pictures and prove how their cows are treated. Or if you happen to have a local dairy, actually pop in for a visit.

i don't wanna drink milk anymore either but it's really hard to give up, since it's in *everything*. i think that's the hardest thing to give up lol.

I used to loooooooove milk, but quit 30 years ago because of sinus headaches. The headaches cleared up after I got off all milk and cheese, and for many years I had no trouble. Later, I started eating cheese again, and didn't have headaches, but did start catching colds and flus again. Definite correlation there! I had more trouble giving up the cheese the second time, because it was a comfort food for me. There's just something about that gooey stuff that's comforting when stressed out! But wow, I felt so much better after I quit!

There are many non-dairy alternatives to milk and cheese. Some good, some not so good. From the packages ones, I like Rice Dream the best. I rarely drink it anymore, because now I'm making my own almond milk. It's very easy, and verrrrrrrry healthy if you use truly raw almonds. (Illegal in the US so you have to order online - I get mine from http://livingnutz.com/.)

It helps if you have a VitaMix, but any blender will do. You just may have to strain it with a regular blender. Just soak a handful of raw almonds overnight in water, drain, add more water, and blend on high. Add a pinch of good quality salt (like Celtic or Himalayan), a dash of vanilla, and maple syrup or raw honey to taste. (Honey brings up another issue - bees are abused too - I buy honey only from local beekeepers and never use commercial honey.)

Anyway, almond milk is YUM!!!

And there are many different vegan cheeses to choose from, and you can even make your own vegan, raw seed cheese! (I am learning how to do that.)

[βαθμιαίος]

'cooperative' in what sense ?

one eats the other. it is not a mutually beneficial relationship.

Actually, it is, on a species level. The predator species helps the prey species by preventing overpopulation and by culling the sick, weak, and old.

[Oceania]

yeah Monica i get free range eggs, they're everywhere i dunno why they sell the regular ones. i would never buy eggs if they weren't free range. but kitty food has chicken in some of the boxes, would it help to avoid those? i doubt pet food companies care about ethics, or do they?

DW said he used to cough up flem a lot when he used dairy and i've had that same thing. whenever i eat cheese i start to produce snot a lot and get a cough.

David Wolfe hasn't to my knowledge written anything but i could check.

how could almonds be illegal? are they the poisonous ones? i also get organic honey, though it doesn't say how they're treated. some organic honey tubs say they have left half for the bees.

---

and Aaron thanks for your points, i agree i don't really have a choice with the meat if my pet requires it.

[_X7]

The drawn out length of threads like this does help share important rationale and finer details of great benefit. Thanks to all! You people inspire hope in humanity, by taking precious, personal time.

Beyond the basics of "meat or veg" is the naked science of what exactly nourishes 3d bodies most-critically. I'm personally skeptical of the expectation that carnivores self invoke permanent needs for meat alone. Improving methods of research are finding the finer components of nutrition. Ways to shortcut much of the collateral damage in protein industries now appear on the horizon. The world's test vehicle for nutrient-components, is on the market today, but does repel many people. I'm trying many supplements from sources who i've listened to carefully and thereby trust. This movement is new, yet way too popular for the "bad guys" to snuff out.

So here is another 'chapter', as yet not covered specifically on this thread. Some of the better situated science labs have already and still do proceed in 'proving' efficacy of particular food components and herbs. There are countless herbs to research in modern labs, which occasionally find that key nutrients can be more easily obtained. This area of science has too long been manipulated, wrongly-accussed and distorted by industrialized monopolies. So that instead, harmful substances are literally forced upon unwitting humans. So that masses of unwitting humans are misinformed by dietary lies. So that markets are price fixed and product fixed, (subversively so to speak). The good news is that occasionally, leading medical journals actually have to admit, to efficacies and healing, outside of the industrialized monopolies. Let us thank the many honest scientists and whistle blowers. Some of the best sources to follow news and tech, which i have long followed include:

http://www.progressiveradionetwork.com/
http://www.naturalnews.com/

These sites offer vegan & raw approaches to health, along with careful research into what makes specific nutrients work. Countless Mp3 and vids are easily accessed along with some text articles, as free downloads. Subjects also include interesting life styling, life rehabbing, pets, careers, news-revelations, along with uplift-ment shows for balance. Gary Null even provides server space to create your own mp3 radio show. Take a look.

I noticed that other good sources have been listed to. I only want to add these two sources who are daily prolific in this vital area for humanity.

I'm inspired by the thought that 3d bodies could actually progress in light and life, to discover less treacherous means and more enlightened means to nourish planetary beings and to flourish.

[3DMonkey]

An appreciated and thoughtful post, _X7.

"Beyond the basics of "meat or veg" is the naked science of what exactly nourishes 3d bodies most-critically."

Honestly, I like to focus the most on how the body is the manifestation of mind and spirit. Meaning, the nourishment of the mind and spirit is more important than "meat or veg", and that being frustrated or disgusted by what other 3D confused people are doing is harmful to the body's health. I tend to breed the opposite in this thread, but I would rather people focus on the love and light in others, even the meat industry personnel.



This thread was started by someone who felt for eating plants what vegetarians feel for eating animals. I, personally, share this emotion. Now, the vegetarian members have tried to discredit this emotion as an unnecessary one. My only desire is to show them that they act no different than the meat eaters that would discredit their emotions for animals. This way of not validating an other in their personal 3D endeavor is the real issue for the health of the body, in my opinion. I think it is a "blockage" on a societal level. The tell tale that it is a societal level blockage is that, in the mirror, the motivation is so that "the society must get on board with this in order to progress as a society the way i see it." The reciprocal, or activation, of this is " I need to see the society in a way that I can accept it in order to allow it to progress."

[_X7]

Honestly, I like to focus the most on how the body is the manifestation of mind and spirit.

Excellent chapter to add, good sir!

I think it is a "blockage" on a societal level.

In any event, is not all distortions, whether good or bad, up or down, or indeed polarity "being stuck within a blockage"

Which ever band wagon can motivate harmonious progress, may best serve the mind and spirit, for the harvest. Or please clue us in, if there is a better way for the wayward masses out there.

My point also being that the masses of people who deserve some alerting that they are being blockage-&-distortion-controled, as they presently attempt to nourish themselves. Also given that they may be more receptive to current peer-reviewed-sciences-well-presented, within there bandwidth, rather than any sort of spiritual proclamation from a small group of people chatting on the web.

[unity100]

'cooperative' in what sense ?

one eats the other. it is not a mutually beneficial relationship.

Actually, it is, on a species level. The predator species helps the prey species by preventing overpopulation and by culling the sick, weak, and old.

that is as cooperative as the master 'helping' the slave to till the fields.

[βαθμιαίος]

that is as cooperative as the master 'helping' the slave to till the fields.

Again, I disagree.

[Oceania]

i think plants are treated more humanly than animals. so i don't think it's the same thing at all. sides animals are cuter.

[Monica]

yeah Monica i get free range eggs, they're everywhere

That's great!

i dunno why they sell the regular ones. i would never buy eggs if they weren't free range.

I agree!

but kitty food has chicken in some of the boxes,

Except for a few brands offering vegetarian kibble, all commercial cat and dog foods are meat-based. And the commercial brands have a lot of other noxious ingredients as well (such as sawdust, meat 'by-products' which is the meat that didn't pass inspection for human consumption due to disease, etc.). The commercial stuff is pretty nasty, in many ways besides the meat.

would it help to avoid those?

This is a difficult issue. From purely health reasons, some brands of cat/dog food are better than others. From an ethical perspective, unless one buys the vegetarian kibble, it's all the same. But being that cats and dogs are obviously carnivores, I can't say with certainty that putting them on a veggie diet is the way to go. As I said in my earlier post, I'm exploring this and working on transitioning them. I know of vegans who feed their dogs vegetarians kibble and they do fine, but I don't know much about vegetarian cats. I don't see why it would make any difference, other than the difference in their teeth which may be a clue. I am beginning to believe that, since they have chosen to live with us, on some level maybe they are choosing to evolve in the direction of being vegetarians. Just think what a difference this could make in their next lifetime when they're human! They could get their new 3D reality off to a great start!

Sorry I'm not able to give a simple yes or no answer on this. I'm still struggling with it.

Recently I saw a youtube video showing a guy offering some commercial meat-based dog food and some vegetarian kibble to a dog, and the dog chose the veg. stuff every time. Apparently he was selling some veg. dog food, but then at the end it just said 'coming soon' and gave no other info. The last time I tried the veg. dog food at the store, my dogs turned their noses up at it. I had to mix in a tiny bit with some other food just to get rid of it because they wouldn't eat it on their own. That was awhile back so maybe now I'll try it again.

i doubt pet food companies care about ethics, or do they?

I haven't seen any yet that do. It's gotten trendy now for all sorts of new brands of dog/cat food to pop up. The last time I went to Petsmart, I was amazed at the array of new brands that I've never seen before, some of them offering organic ingredients! For overall health, this is good, but I haven't researched these new brands to see if they claim better conditions for the animals.

As I've expressed, for humans, I see no point in eating 'humane' meat when we could easily just avoid meat altogether. But for animals, being that I haven't yet eliminated meat from my pets' diets, then I would much rather get them food that has meat from 'humanely' raised animals than from factory farmed animals. Until my animals are all vegetarians, it's a least a step in the right direction. So I am encouraged by these new brands and plan to check them out.

Bottom line is, I don't think we can just eliminate meat from our pets' diets, unless we really know what we're doing. I cannot claim to be there yet. I want to be sure that what I feed them is adequate. I know others are doing it successfully, so it's just a matter of education. I'm ready to get educated!

DW said he used to cough up flem a lot when he used dairy and i've had that same thing. whenever i eat cheese i start to produce snot a lot and get a cough.

Yeah me too. It seems to turn into glue.

David Wolfe hasn't to my knowledge written anything but i could check.

He does have some books, or at least one that I know of, something about Sun diet or something like that. I just wonder if he addresses the pet food issue. Maybe some of the raw vegan leaders have already figured this out and we're reinventing the wheel here!

how could almonds be illegal? are they the poisonous ones?

Almonds aren't poisonous, so its' nothing like that. The US FDA is so corrupt that it'll find any excuse to outlaw the healthiest foods, while allowing toxic drugs with severe side effects on the market. All it takes is one batch of some food to become contaminated, and they often require pasteurization. That's what happened with milk (it's illegal to get raw milk in the US) and that's what happened with almonds.

Almonds are among the healthiest foods one can eat! They're loaded with protein, minerals, the good fats, etc. Edgar Cayce said that a few almonds per day would keep cancer away. That's a pretty bold statement!

But now, all the almonds in the stores are pasteurized, which means they're pretty much worthless. However there is a loophole, and you can order truly raw, organic almonds online. There may be others, but the one I know of is livingnutz.com. You can read more about the almond situation on their website. Yes they cost more but are well worth it, in my opinion. A 10-pound bag is expensive but lasts a long time if one consumes, say, 1/2 cup or so per day.

i also get organic honey, though it doesn't say how they're treated. some organic honey tubs say they have left half for the bees.

It's amazing how we all mirror one another! I have felt some frustration that many meat-eaters seem unwilling to watch the slaughterhouse videos. I don't think a single person on this thread has come forth and said they actually watched them, for the purpose of getting educated on this issue. I think the only way to really be fair is to watch the videos, because that is the only way to truly comprehend what's happening, what they're supporting when they eat meat.

Whenever I feel frustration with other-selves, I try to remember to look in the mirror and find the part of myself that is being mirrored. And guess what I found? I have been just as guilty, in the area of bees and honey!

In the nearly 30 years of being a vegetarian, do you know I had never gotten educated about where honey comes from? Yeah, no kidding! Pretty absurd, really! I would generally refer to anyone who didn't eat meat, eggs or dairy as vegan, but actually, in its purest sense, a vegan also avoids...honey! In fact, someone has coined a new term for 'vegans' who eat honey - beegan!

I never understood what all the fuss was about concerning honey. I mean, after all, it's a gift from our bee friends, right? Just like eggs from chickens? I even - get this - thought very strict vegans to be...ahem... a little extremist by being so strict on avoiding honey!

I mean, gosh, meat is gross so of course I won't vegetable soup if it has chicken broth in it. And there's no way I could just pick the pepperoni off the pizza - yikes it has been tainted! But to avoid an otherwise vegan muffin because it was made with honey? I smirked, just as the meat-eaters smirk when I refuse to eat that tainted pizza. That's going too far! That's...that's...that's so extremist!

Well, lo and behold, my eyes have been opened! Recently, because of my garden and because of becoming aware of the disappearing bees - a major threat to continued existence on this planet - I have gotten interested in beekeeping. I'm a little scared, but intrigued, and feel a pull towards doing my part to save the bees (and humans since something like 80% of all human food depends on bees).

And I've been horrified - just horrified - to learn of the atrocious methods that are considered standard in the beekeeping industry!

Did you know that bees are commonly given sugar water, while their honey is stolen? And they are smoked out of their hive whenever the beekeeper needs to tend the hive? And entire hives are routinely shipped across the country, to pollinate orchards?

These and other practices are disrespectful to the bees, as well as disorienting. Consequently, because of these practices as well as cell phones, EMF's, pesticides and other factors, these precious and crucially needed allies are disappearing in droves! They are succumbing to viruses and mites, and just plain disappearing, which has scientists baffled.

But, apparently, the local backyard beekeepers have no such problems! Their bees are, for the most part, just fine!

The backyard beekeepers might use the smoking method and other practices I find objectionable, but overall, they are treating their bees much better. I would liken them to the 'humane' farmers who are trying to do better than their commercial counterparts.

Some backyard beekeepers have taken it a step further and have developed ways to partner with bees that show them respect. They don't use smokers. They don't steal the bees' honey and replace it with sugar water, but harvest only the excess. They are providing safe havens for the bees so that the bees can survive. It's a growing movement and I want to be a part of it (if I can muster up the courage!).

So, for now, what I'm doing is purchasing only local honey from small-scale beekeepers. I can't say with 100% certainty that the bees were treated optimally, but most likely they were treated waaaaaay better than the commercial bees. Small-scale beekeeper usually genuinely love their bees. Whereas, the commercial beekeeping practices are akin to factory farming.

Generally, avoid any 'grade A' honey in the regular grocery stores. Whenever you can find raw honey, not only is it healthier, but it was probably produced by a small-scale beekeeper who loves and respects his bees. It still might not be totally cruelty-free. I don't know enough about this yet to really give a conclusive answer. But, I do know that the survival of 3D life on this planet depends largely on backyard beekeepers.

[Oceania]

sawdust??? omg! that's not food! i've heard there are almonds that are poisonous.

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i had no idea! i didn't know they give them sugar water and smoke them out. wtf is wrong with people? sugar is so unhealthy that i try to avoid it myself, surely the bees don't need yucky sugar! if i didn't have a huge bug phobia and general incompetence maybe i'd start beekeeping too. indeed, if i had a mentor i could prolly learn to do it. why do they need to be smoked out? beekeepers use those suits.

[Monica]

sawdust??? omg! that's not food!

Yeah no kidding!

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/9830...-Food.html

i've heard there are almonds that are poisonous.

Probably propaganda to scare people. Almonds aren't poisonous. Or you might be thinking of apricot pits, which are close cousins of almonds and considered a natural cancer therapy. The FDA loves telling people they're poisonous. Can't have people getting healed of cancer without their drugs now can we!

[Oceania]

i know David Wolfe writes books, i meant for animals. he's so plant obsessed he's ignoring animals.

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you bashing FDA is preaching the choir!

[Monica]

i know David Wolfe writes books, i meant for animals. he's so plant obsessed he's ignoring animals.

Maybe his focus is mainly on human health, rather than the plight of the animals. People are vegetarians for different reasons. But I know vegans have addressed the issue of what to feed our carnivorous pets. We just need to find that info. I'm sure we aren't the first ones to be in this situation.

Hey look what I just found!

http://www.vegancats.com/veganfaq.php