In regards to eating meat

[Diana]

@Diana, to answer your question that you directed to anyone, I would not expect to eat meat on a future planet of existence in which the entire planet was created specifically to not eat meat. Personally, I do not think refraining from this current planet's ways are what will create your hypothetical world, and I don't think Ra suggested it as the method to reach Fourth Density.



3D Monkey: I understand your point of view of exerting no will upon free will. I, personally, find it difficult sometimes to refrain from pushing the envelope, as this 3-D world in my view needs so badly to evolve. I see your point that in a world where meat is eaten, why try to change it. But, isn't that what evolution is--change? To evolve from a survival-mode to a cooperative society, isn't change integral? You say eating meat is a nasty business; then how is not eating meat not a part of your envisioned evolved world?

As for Ra, I came to this site because I liked an old book of Ra someone left to me, and I was very impressed with the information in it. I read a lot, and this information rose to the top like cream. However, I am not a follower. I think things out for myself, and may use selected works such as Ra for reference in developing my working theories and understanding, but that's all.

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I thought you would just love the "christian" reference Monica LoL!

Technically scripture has the guidlines of "Law of One" although wrongly manipulated into english.

I take the same side of the "adversary" when I tell someone what to do. It becomes a reality if they do it though, stopping an experience. One one side it is wrong for me to tell monkey "how" to experience. Also in the fact that it is not our place to "offer" when not asked for help.

Acceptance is a hard pill to swallow. The largest failures you see are the persecutions of exotic individuals because they are "different". The hardest lesson of acceptance are those individuals that came only to allow for the choice of suffering on a wide scale, which involves us as free willed individuals rather than other forms of consciousness. Our day to day lessons are how we rationalize accepting the free will of those that do not accept the free will of others.

Acceptance kind of also moves you to make the smallest footprint possible on the scale of infringement.

So even these arguments are pointless in one aspect.

I take your point. And in the public world, this is how I act. It could be said that regarding the phrase I used "shift your thinking" I was attempting to exert my will. However, I thought this was a discussion. In a discussion, isn't that what you do: try and explain your point of view so that the others involved in the discussion understand it? That is what I meant by "shift your thinking," although I can see how it might sound "pushy."

[BrownEye]

However, I am not a follower. I think things out for myself, and may use selected works such as Ra for reference in developing my working theories and understanding, but that's all.

Yes. I follow no vegan or health advocates. I do look up to a few knowledgable sources though.

What makes me an outcast is that I create my reality rather than trying to fit into a reality created for me.

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you try to give examples of why plants are not (individual) beings

[Diana]

What is cruel to other beings? You mean beings that you consider higher evolved than other beings. That just takes us back to the original post. Plants are beings.

I just pointed out to you specific chosen words that are doing nothing of explaining why they have chosen certain things, but instead are saying why others are not good enough. You down right ignored it.

I would like to respond to this. As for me, I think all life/things/beings are equal. I do not think animals are more highly evolved than plants--just different. One of the reasons I don't eat meat is because of the fear it creates. Fear creates enslavement, non-movement. To take it step further, the person who ingests the animal ingests the animal's fear as well. I can elaborate on that if desired.

As for your second paragraph, I am here discussing eating meat, attempting to make my views understood (else, why discuss?) Did you read the Ra material just to read it, or did you want to understand it? Should we just spew words at each other, "sharing," and not try to understand each other? I am not wanting agreement with anyone; I seek expansion of understanding/awareness, and I both want to give and receive in this regard.

[BrownEye]

And the individuals on this site would most likely be aware that they have the ability to consciously create.

While it is very hard, yes.

This is apparently a very touchy issue, which triggers a lot of emotion. Does anyone have any speculations as to why?

There are multiple angles that I will not mention.

Fasting is a very good method for change. In fact I am curious if Tenet has noticed any lasting changes in his habits since his last fasting experience..........

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I am not wanting agreement with anyone; I seek expansion of understanding/awareness, and I both want to give and receive in this regard

This is a topic that I do not need to understand LoL. I have eaten meat all my life and had put myself in the same position as my parents. I had to take myself out of their footsteps in order to stop the repeating of their catalyst of health downgrades. I am type O blood. I have also found something mindblowing about myself, which I will not share publicly, and is proof of evolution. Others in my small group of friends have found the same fact about themself, one of them evolving at an even faster pace than myself. What I will say is that my biggest hurdle in evolution is my lineage DNA.:@

[3DMonkey]

" Fine. Then don't eat plants. Eat fruits and nuts only. "

[Oceania]

i think more important is the care for animals. to treat them right even when you eat them.

[BrownEye]

" Fine. Then don't eat plants. Eat fruits and nuts only. "

My diet is almost all fruits, nuts, and seeds. I can pick a couple leaves a day from each kale plant in the back yard. I try to pick the leaf before they dry out or the bugs eat em.

I have seen other folks just cut the plant completely off though. Which I don't really see the point. By using the larger leaves the plant will live all summer.

[Oceania]

i want your diet. i'm inclined to eat fruit, not veggies. although i love potatos and carrot mash. but aren't potatos and carrots sort of like fruit?

[Monica]

I'm really sorry, Monica. I feel like unity100 must feel sometimes

Nice to see some compassion directed at unity100!

because the only thing I can say is that you haven't followed the conversation at all. I am constantly retracing the steps only to be met with the same one liners you write.

I have been following the conversation, very closely. But you and I both know from experience that, try as we might, we don't understand each other very well.

I answered your question about cruelty to beings, and elaborate that you have a Personally subjective definition of what a being is. Then you ask me to define being! WTF?

Why do you say WTF? I was genuinely curious what your perception of a being was. Is it human only? animal? plants? bacteria? a blade of grass or the whole lawn? where does one being start and end?

It's easy to see that an animals is a being. Not so easy with plants or microbes.

Then you try to give examples of why plants are not beings, and then ironically say that meat eaters are the ones in denial are are justifying. That is rich.

As Diana said, and I agreed with, I do think meat-eaters are in denial.

Why? Because they continually gloss over the obvious suffering they are inflicting, and they continually make excuses for why contributing to that suffering is 'ok.'

Yet, these are people who are obviously pursuing a spiritual path.

Inflicting suffering on other beings is incompatible with a spiritual path.

Ergo, someone seeking a spiritual path, who continues to inflict suffering on other beings, must be in denial.

The only other explanation is that they don't care.

I don't think they don't care. I know these people do care. Thus, the only possible explanation left is denial.

It's simple logic. Either they don't care, or they're in denial. What other option is there?

But, I suppose the one who is actually in denial is the one who is blinded.

Well, that's what being in denial means. Blinded.

I have acknowledged that killing animals is nasty business. I also acknowledge that plants are beings too.

Which is why I asked for clarification. Is a lettuce leaf a being, or is only the whole head of lettuce a being? When I tear a lettuce leaf, it grows back. Animals don't grow back limbs. But plants do. If I take a cutting from an ivy plant and put it in the ground, is it a new being? If I cut a potato into 4 parts and plant them all, getting 4 new potato plants from 1 single potato, did that 1 being turn into 4? Which new potato plant is the original being?

I accept that I live in a universe pwhere eating them both is possible and necessary. It's not an ideal world, but we don't live in an ideal world.

That's the whole point, Monkey. Eating animals isn't necessary.

Eating plants of some sort IS necessary. But eating animals is NOT.

Aside from some rare instances due to extreme medical conditions, most people don't have to eat animals. It's simply not necessary. That has been irrefutably proven by science.

How can causing unnecessary cruelty and death to beings be justified?

@Diana, to answer your question that you directed to anyone, I would not expect to eat meat on a future planet of existence in which the entire planet was created specifically to not eat meat. Personally, I do not think refraining from this current planet's ways are what will create your hypothetical world, and I don't think Ra suggested it as the method to reach Fourth Density.

The method to reach 4D is love/compassion/forgiveness. How is it loving to support unnecessary cruelty?

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I am here discussing eating meat, attempting to make my views understood (else, why discuss?) Did you read the Ra material just to read it, or did you want to understand it? Should we just spew words at each other, "sharing," and not try to understand each other? I am not wanting agreement with anyone; I seek expansion of understanding/awareness, and I both want to give and receive in this regard.

Same here!

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i want your diet. i'm inclined to eat fruit, not veggies. although i love potatos and carrot mash. but aren't potatos and carrots sort of like fruit?

I'm going to start a thread entitled, What do Vegetarians Eat Anyway? whenever I get time.

Pickle's diet, and mine, would be considered hardcore. His is a lot more so than mine. I didn't start out that way, but I'm going in that direction.

[BrownEye]

The only other explanation is that they don't care.

I don't think they don't care. I know these people do care. Thus, the only possible explanation left is denial.

It's simple logic. Either they don't care, or they're in denial. What other option is there?

I did not care until after all animal cells had been cleaned out of my body. I was surprised at the arrival of compassion for animals.

There is something that is called a "negative elemental" that can show up in a persons body, affecting judgment and perception. In modern terms it would be heavy metal poisoning.

So what kind of effect do you suppose the molecules of non-living flesh would have on the body, looking at it as actual spirits?

I will mention the fasting rituals that have been used in history that are not only to clean out the intestines, but on another level to also clean out "spirits" and thought forms, allowing for clear thought and perception.

[Oceania]

does that include seafood?

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i eat fish and eggs but i can't eat meat. it feels wrong. but i used to eat it occasionally. i love chicken. i didn't care because i was under some delusion it didn't matter. like my involvement didn't make a difference. but now i know that it does. i miss the chicken. :/

[3DMonkey]

Ergo, someone seeking a spiritual path, who continues to inflict suffering on other beings, must be in denial.

The only other explanation is that they don't care.

I don't think they don't care. I know these people do care. Thus, the only possible explanation left is denial.

It's simple logic. Either they don't care, or they're in denial. What other option is there?

But, I suppose the one who is actually in denial is the one who is blinded.

Well, that's what being in denial means. Blinded.

You have accurately described a vegetarian who does not consider their own practice to "hurt" plants.

I do care, but I am not in denial. I will murder animal and plant to survive. We all do it. I think it best to accept that.

[Monica]

does that include seafood?

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i eat fish and eggs but i can't eat meat. it feels wrong. but i used to eat it occasionally. i love chicken. i didn't care because i was under some delusion it didn't matter. like my involvement didn't make a difference. but now i know that it does. i miss the chicken. :/

I wouldn't worry about the eggs. Just be sure to get free-range eggs. This means the chickens are allowed to forage for bugs and have a good life, as opposed to commercially produced eggs, in which the chickens are crowded into tiny cages, debeaked, and raised under extremely cruel conditions. Free-range eggs are cruelty-free, and healthier too because they don't have the antibiotics and hormones.

Wild fish at least have a life before they are killed, so if you're going to eat meat, wild fish is the least cruel. Coincidentally, wild 'coldwater' fish has some health benefits.

The definition of vegetarian is someone who doesn't eat anything that had a face. This includes fish. But, many people transition to a vegetarian diet by quitting red meat first, then chicken, then fish, in that order. Chickens are treated just as cruelly as cows, and struggle just as hard to live.

You'd be amazed at all the cool things you can do with tofu! Some recipes can taste just like fish or chicken!

[3DMonkey]

The only other explanation is that they don't care.

I don't think they don't care. I know these people do care. Thus, the only possible explanation left is denial.

It's simple logic. Either they don't care, or they're in denial. What other option is there?

I did not care until after all animal cells had been cleaned out of my body. I was surprised at the arrival of compassion for animals.

There is something that is called a "negative elemental" that can show up in a persons body, affecting judgment and perception. In modern terms it would be heavy metal poisoning.

So what kind of effect do you suppose the molecules of non-living flesh would have on the body, looking at it as actual spirits?

I will mention the fasting rituals that have been used in history that are not only to clean out the intestines, but on another level to also clean out "spirits" and thought forms, allowing for clear thought and perception.

I really like this perspective. I am interested.

(also, I might call on your contribution if ever the "spider topic" comes up again)

[Monica]

You have accurately described a vegetarian who does not consider their own practice to "hurt" plants.

Monkey, I invite you to read this entire thread. This has been discussed extensively.

In short, many more plants are killed, to feed the animals who are then killed. So if you want to reduce the number of plants that are killed, the best way to do that is to quit eating animals!

Not to mention the environmental factors. The meat industry is largely responsible for destroying our planet, as well as disease in humans.

I do care, but I am not in denial. I will murder animal and plant to survive. We all do it. I think it best to accept that.

I don't accept it. I choose to not participate in the cruelty done to animals.

Why should I accept it when I can just not do it?

[Oceania]

of course i get free range. if i didn't i'd just as soon eat chicken. it's their treatment that got me to stop.

fish to me is sort of brainless, i don't like them to suffer but it's hard to find out what they were treated. i hate seeing them gasp for air in movies. when my granpa caught some i put them back in the water. i didn't want them to suffer.

[3DMonkey]

I invite you to read this entire thread.

What does that mean? You've said that many times.

You claim evolving means stopping animal cruelty. I say it is no different a justification than plant cruelty.


Why should you accept it? I'm not telling you to accept it. I do accept it. I do know that Ra says acceptance is key. I do know they didn't say not to eat meat.

[Oceania]

it would be agains their code of ethics. we're supposed to figure it out. i dunno if meat eating is wrong. i do know animal cruelty is wrong. personally i couldn't probably kill an animal for food. not even fish. but i dunno cuz hunger makes people do stuff. if i was hungry enough i'd probably kill some fish but not other animals.

[yossarian]

I invite you to read this entire thread.

What does that mean? You've said that many times.

She's saying your point about plant cruelty has been addressed in this thread already.

You claim evolving means stopping animal cruelty. I say it is no different a justification than plant cruelty.

What about fruit? Eating fruit doesn't hurt any plants. Plants want their fruits to be eaten.

[Oceania]

no the plants want their fruit to spread their seeds.

[yossarian]

no the plants want their fruit to spread their seeds.

this is why I poop in your backyard. To respect the wishes of the plants.

[3DMonkey]

I invite you to read this entire thread.

What does that mean? You've said that many times.

She's saying your point about plant cruelty has been addressed in this thread already.

I know. But so have every one of her points. Obviously, reading the thread amounts to nothing.

[yossarian]

I invite you to read this entire thread.

What does that mean? You've said that many times.

She's saying your point about plant cruelty has been addressed in this thread already.

I know. But so have every one of her points. Obviously, reading the thread amounts to nothing.

By "amount to something" you mean change her mind?

[3DMonkey]

it would be agains their code of ethics. we're supposed to figure it out. i dunno if meat eating is wrong. i do know animal cruelty is wrong. personally i couldn't probably kill an animal for food. not even fish. but i dunno cuz hunger makes people do stuff. if i was hungry enough i'd probably kill some fish but not other animals.

That's what I mean by "nasty business". Blood and guts is gross.

So is poop, but we all do it. So is rotten pumpkin *yuck*. Come to think of it, so is fresh pumpkin *bleh*

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I invite you to read this entire thread.

What does that mean? You've said that many times.

She's saying your point about plant cruelty has been addressed in this thread already.

I know. But so have every one of her points. Obviously, reading the thread amounts to nothing.

By "amount to something" you mean change her mind?

No, I mean it sounds like "you are just repeating already posted points. Read it, and you might stop reiterating". Yet, her having read it hasn't stopped her. So, my question to her still remains.

[Monica]

I invite you to read this entire thread.

What does that mean? You've said that many times.

It's only an invitation, Monkey. There is a wealth of discussion in this thread, with many points that you brought up, explored extensively by both sides of the debate.

You claim evolving means stopping animal cruelty. I say it is no different a justification than plant cruelty.

Yes, you've made that clear. OK, then I am curious what you say to the fact that eating animals kills more plants? and the best way to reduce cruelty to plants is to quit eating animals?

Why should you accept it? I'm not telling you to accept it. I do accept it. I do know that Ra says acceptance is key.

Acceptance doesn't mean continuing to make choices that are incompatible with the STO path. Ra also talked about STO, and about choice. We've discussed this before, Monkey, and never reached any understanding.

I do know they didn't say not to eat meat.

They didn't say not to steal either, or not to lie or cheat, or any number of other things. Ra gave us some very advanced information. Ra didn't dictate our choices, and in fact advised us to make our own choices.

However, in the single reference to meat, Ra did say "animal products as necessary" so if you want to follow Ra's words as authoritative, then that clearly says not to eat animal products unless necessary.

For most people, eating meat isn't necessary.

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no the plants want their fruit to spread their seeds.

Pooping out seeds provides great fertilizer for the plants to grow! Lots of plants sprout in bird poop!

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She's saying your point about plant cruelty has been addressed in this thread already.

I know. But so have every one of her points.

AND the points from those who think eating animals is ok! This thread isn't just MY thread! There are lots of people participating, providing different viewpoints. The best way to understand the issue is to consider all the viewpoints.

Obviously, reading the thread amounts to nothing.

How is that obvious? Why are you here, posting, then?

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No, I mean it sounds like "you are just repeating already posted points. Read it, and you might stop reiterating".

You can keep reiterating if you like. But it's unreasonable to expect answers, that were already posted previously. It's unreasonable to expect people to repeat what they've already said, just because you don't want to take the time to read the entire thread. (I'm sounding like unity100 here and I agree with him on this point.)

Yet, her having read it hasn't stopped her.

Stopped me from what? I only answer new posts. I don't repeat old stuff unless it gets brought up again. I'm interested in a discussion that progresses, not repeats.

So, my question to her still remains.

What question? I'm totally clueless, Monkey.

[3DMonkey]

" Fine. Then don't eat plants. Eat fruits and nuts only. "

[Monica]

" Fine. Then don't eat plants. Eat fruits and nuts only. "

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand why you're quoting something I said, Monkey. You said you had asked me a question. I don't know what question you're referring to.

[3DMonkey]

Monica, your previous post took every one of my sentences out of context. Let us put the dog back to sleep.

[Monica]

Monica, your previous post took every one of my sentences out of context. Let us put the dog back to sleep.

OK. Sorry about that. I really do try to understand you, Monkey.

But no problem. Thank you for sharing your views, Monkey.

[Oceania]

gross is besides the point. it's hypocritical to eat animals you couldn't kill yourself. that's why i quit meat, i still eat fish because if it came to it, i could kill a fish. especially to feed my kitty.