In regards to eating meat

[Ruth]

I do have an inclination to save plants. But I don't mind eating the fruit/produce from a plant.

Light and love.

[Monica]

Well, you made them in response to my statement about humanely-raised animals.

I've stated this multiple times, but I guess I need to put a disclaimer in my sig, that anything I say in the meat thread isn't directed at anyone personally. I can't keep track of exactly who buys only 'humanely' raised meat and who doesn't, and it isn't my place to anyway. I'm not going to judge someone for their choices. As soon as we start doing that, the entire discussion degenerates.

Yes, I feel compassion when I butcher an animal. I also feel compassion when I pull a lettuce or a carrot from my garden. Don't you? I feel compassion when I kill bugs in the garden so that the plants will flourish.

I feel joy and gratitude when I pull a carrot. I don't feel any vibe from the carrot that it is being tortured or killed. The plants in my garden all seem very happy to be a part of the cycle of life. I contend that that is their purpose and a natural part of their own evolution.

As I posited before: If each plant is writhing in agony whenever any animal eats it, then that would mean the entire covering of plant life on this planet is living in constant torture. It would be far more cruel than the 'natural' killing of prey by predators.

What kind of hell is that?

I cannot fathom our Sub-Logos designing a system that is so inherently cruel.

I feel compassion when I eat sunflower seeds that won't get to grow. I feel compassion when I grind wheat that won't get to sprout. I feel compassion when I pull a leaf off of a kale plant. I feel compassion when I eat an almond.

And at the same time that I feel compassion for all these creatures, I feel intense gratitude to them.

Can any of the meat-eaters honestly say that it's just as easy to butcher a cow with your hands, as it is to pull a carrot?

[βαθμιαίος]

I feel joy and gratitude when I pull a carrot. I don't feel any vibe from the carrot that it is being tortured or killed. The plants in my garden all seem very happy to be a part of the cycle of life. I contend that that is their purpose and a natural part of their own evolution.

I would disagree that the carrot doesn't realize that it's being killed. Otherwise, I would say the same about my small herd of cattle.

[native]

Since we know that within each density, there are seven sub-densities and so on, ad infinitum, I would imagine a carrot exists in a lower state of awareness than a cow. There must be gradations of awareness within 2d itself. How much a carrot knows in regards to its impending death, I think it's impossible to say. I would imagine it's not that stressed.

[BrownEye]

I feel compassion when I eat sunflower seeds that won't get to grow. I feel compassion when I grind wheat that won't get to sprout. I feel compassion when I pull a leaf off of a kale plant. I feel compassion when I eat an almond.

Do you feel compassion for the seed spilled onto the ground when you wank off?

In my understanding a seed is like an egg, needing the other half of "source" to become the beginning of life.

[βαθμιαίος]

Do you feel compassion for the seed spilled onto the ground when you wank off?

In my understanding a seed is like an egg, needing the other half of "source" to become the beginning of life.

I don't think that's right. Sunflower seeds, wheat berries, almonds, etc. have already been pollinated. Boy part has found girl part and the seed is ready to sprout.

[native]

Do you feel compassion for the seed spilled onto the ground when you wank off?

Haha..Bill Hicks - Your Children Aren't Special

[3DMonkey]

There is a character in the bible whom God struck down immediately for doing that.

SOMEBODY wants us to feel guilty for doing that

[native]

I know what you're referring to..I think that's where the idea of masturbation as a bad thing comes from.

[AnthroHeart]

Wasn't there a story about how a god made a universe by masturbating?

I can tell you sexual energy can be a powerful thing. I mean I used masturbation to build my creation because the amount of energy it creates is incredible.

[3DMonkey]

I think that was Sumerian?

*blam* Now be! (theme music)

[Diana]

Well, I know that it isn't simply that easy, because I've had 1 vegan friend and 1 vegetarian friend have issues because of lack of protein (and other nutrients) consumption. And I don't know a single vegetarian/vegan who doesn't drink soymilk.

I have been strict vegetarian since 1993. I am very healthy and look at least 10 years younger than my chronological age. I eat no soy, and definitely do not drink soy milk. My body is strong, and healthy

I have a friend who was a professional wrestler (the WWF TV kind). He is huge muscle-wise, and was a raw-fooder during the time he wrestled and still is. (When I say raw-fooder, I mean plant-based.)

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Regarding the humane raising of animals for meat:

There is the issue of freedom. Plants don't move around. Animals do, including fish. So, no matter how humane, they are being forced into an unnatural environment. Free range cattle would have it the best in this regard, as they roam over large areas.

We are not allowing the plants to be free by cultivating them for food. The lettuce wants to grow up big and bolt...do we let it? The carrot, the beet, the radish, all want to send seed out and multiply...do we let it? The fruit tree is producing fruit for only one reason: to spread it's seed. Do you plant every seed from every fruit you eat?

Point taken. That's quite true about the seeds not all being spread. Plants are however, restricted in the wild by available sunlight and space, and are eaten by wildlife who may or may not spread the seed.

As has been stated previously, we must eat to survive (at this point).

Given that we have a choice of what to eat, taking plant life is less cruel than taking plant life. You can trim a plant without killing it; you cannot cut off an animal's limb without killing it; hence, less fear, cruelty, and injury involved.

For me, it's about taking steps toward evolution and growth. I will always choose the food which causes less harm.

[Namaste]

To be honest, my belief that killing animals is wrong isn't based on any particular idea, but on simple knowing. I didn't decide killing animals was wrong after rationally thinking about it based on concepts from the Law of One or any other spiritual book. I didn't need that. It was already obvious to me, even as a child, when I was forced to help my father butcher chickens, ducks and pigeons. It was obvious to me when my father killed 3 of the 5 kittens born. Even before that, I knew. No one had to tell me.

Precisely. It's an intuitive thing, heart based. It doesn't need intellectualisation.

[βαθμιαίος]

For me, it's about taking steps toward evolution and growth. I will always choose the food which causes less harm.

I basically agree with this, except that I would quibble a little and say that I try to choose the foods which will promote health and healing (rather than causing less harm -- ie stating what I want instead of what I don't want). (You'd probably say the same.)

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Precisely. It's an intuitive thing, heart based. It doesn't need intellectualisation.

I basically agree with this, too, but again, my intuition leads me somewhere different than yours leads you.

[BrownEye]

Boy part has found girl part and the seed is ready to sprout.

But they wont sprout without another ingredient. Set any seed on your table top and see if it ever does anything. Life does not happen without another "mother".

[βαθμιαίος]

But they wont sprout without another ingredient. Set any seed on your table top and see if it ever does anything. Life does not happen without another "mother".

Put them in dirt and water them and they'll sprout.

[BrownEye]

Since we know that within each density, there are seven sub-densities and so on, ad infinitum, I would imagine a carrot exists in a lower state of awareness than a cow. There must be gradations of awareness within 2d itself. How much a carrot knows in regards to its impending death, I think it's impossible to say. I would imagine it's not that stressed.

I bet you I can eat the carrot, and plant the top, and...............

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Put them in dirt and water them and they'll sprout.

The mother? Earth?

[βαθμιαίος]

The mother? Earth?

We all need the mother!

[BrownEye]

So I am wondering, which part of the plant is "it"?

If I chop a bush off leaving the root, a bush comes back.

If I chop the root off, it will come back.

If I chop a branch off, it can turn into another plant.

Are they all really just ..............one plant?

[βαθμιαίος]

In my experience, the crown is the key part. If you leave it with the roots, the roots will grow back but the top will die and vice-versa.

[3DMonkey]

I find it helps to think of the foliage as supporting the roots.

(is that relevant?) Just a "BTW"

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This thread could really be three or four

[BrownEye]

Well, I can cut a branch off, and start a tree from the branch.

Two lives without reproduction.

Unless........they are still one life.

Anywho, I would love to see see someone grow an animal from a leg.lol

[3DMonkey]

I guess plants are more advanced that way...

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Probably balances out fight or flight.

[Monica]

Can any of the meat-eaters honestly say that it's just as easy to butcher a cow with your hands, as it is to pull a carrot?

Gosh, it sure got quiet all of a sudden.

[βαθμιαίος]

It seemed like a rhetorical question. Physically, it's not possible to butcher a cow with your hands.

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Edit to add: Also, to hearken back to an earlier discussion, the term "meat-eaters" is a yellow-ray term. It's dividing us into groups, a group of meat-eaters and a group of non-meat-eaters.

[Diana]

It seemed like a rhetorical question. Physically, it's not possible to butcher a cow with your hands.

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Edit to add: Also, to hearken back to an earlier discussion, the term "meat-eaters" is a yellow-ray term. It's dividing us into groups, a group of meat-eaters and a group of non-meat-eaters.

I think Monica meant: how does it feel to harvest a plant as opposed to slaughtering an animal. "With your hands" just meant to do it yourself rather than buying a piece of packaged meat in the grocery store.

How would you like to refer to meat-eaters in this discussion then? We necessarily have to label the actions in order to talk about them.

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So I am wondering, which part of the plant is "it"?

If I chop a bush off leaving the root, a bush comes back.

If I chop the root off, it will come back.

If I chop a branch off, it can turn into another plant.

Are they all really just ..............one plant?

It's a very interesting question. It certainly supports the idea that plants are meant to be food. Animals come along and eat portions, and they still grow and produce.

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I basically agree with this, except that I would quibble a little and say that I try to choose the foods which will promote health and healing (rather than causing less harm -- ie stating what I want instead of what I don't want). (You'd probably say the same.)

I agree with this. I certainly think that people should listen to their bodies. If an omnivorous diet really promotes health and healing in you, then follow your body's message. In this, I agree with Monkey, and don't want to interfere with another's choices.

But I do not think it's good for the health or healing of the planet, as animal life is part of that equation. And concerning this, I would also do away with zoos and aquariums. Just as I think we should do away with our current prison systems for humans: they should be places of healing, not punishment. I do realize that there are a lot of changes needed to take place between how things are, and where I would like them to be. But the point is to move toward the ideal.

[Monica]

It seemed like a rhetorical question. Physically, it's not possible to butcher a cow with your hands.

How about a chicken then? A chicken can be easily killed. All you have to do is have someone hold his feet while you cut off his head with a hatchet.

Or, you can hold him by head and swing him around really fast. My dad never did it that way but I've heard that's a common way of killing chickens.

Should be really easy.

Edit to add: Also, to hearken back to an earlier discussion, the term "meat-eaters" is a yellow-ray term. It's dividing us into groups, a group of meat-eaters and a group of non-meat-eaters.

I don't think terms fit into any ray. It is the meaning of the term that might be associated with a ray, or an intention.

It is a fact that some eat meat and some don't. We can sugar-coat it but that won't change the fact.

If anything is divisive, it's the fact that we aren't in agreement on this, not the words used to describe it. It is what it is.

But I'm receptive, if you have a suggestion as to a better way to say it that is still accurate in its ability to convey the intended meaning.

Edit: I just read Diana's response. She is correct. I didn't mean it had to be with your bare hands. How about cutting the throat of the cow? That can be done easily, right? You could just use a very big, sharp knife.

[Ens Entium]

Is it just me or was post #1498 ignored??

Wouldn't matter really but that post in particular was getting to the core of this 'debate'.

[Monica]

Is it just me or was post #1498 ignored??

Wouldn't matter really but that post in particular was getting to the core of this 'debate'.

I don't know why no one else responded to it, but can only speak for myself. In short, I disagreed with Austin's views in this particular post, and had already explained why. His post was responding to my post.

Interesting that you consider that post as 'getting to the core of the debate.' There are many other posts that I think 'get to the core of the debate' but were ignored.

[Ens Entium]

Is it just me or was post #1498 ignored??

Wouldn't matter really but that post in particular was getting to the core of this 'debate'.

I don't know why no one else responded to it, but can only speak for myself. In short, I disagreed with Austin's views in this particular post, and had already explained why. His post was responding to my post.

Interesting that you consider that post as 'getting to the core of the debate.' There are many other posts that I think 'get to the core of the debate' but were ignored.

I see, I just assumed it was ignored because since following this thread almost every post that someone has disagreed with has had some justification.

Of course, it's not required of you to justify why you disagreed with that post, but if you won't then I guess it's essentially subjective and so there's no real basis for disagreeing with his meat-eating. His post was a response to your interpretations, as I saw it. You never replied with why you think your interpretation is correct. For instance, the 'relative term' bit is quite important as that really answers the question.

I say this because, really, what I see other than pros and cons and hypothetical situations, is the question of whether animals have subjective experience and so whether the suffering is 'real' or just a very sophisticated articulation of the programming of survival and growth/proliferation. Whether we consider them 'brothers and sisters' or not. And so on...