In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

Originally posted in the Veggies by Force thread (post #46), then transferred to this thread:

I'm finding participation in this thread rather challenging. I agree that it's "not strictly necessary to be vegetarian" in order to follow the STO path. We all know lots of beautiful, loving people who eat meat.

At the same time, I will be honest here and admit that I struggle with how to converse with spiritually-oriented people on the meat issue. The reason is that, while I respect the choice of others when no one is being hurt, my own spirituality makes a distinction when there are victims involved, and I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of the victims. How, then, do I speak up on behalf of the animals while still remaining non-judgmental towards my friends who either are ignorant of animal suffering, or, for whatever reason, justify it?

Most of us here would agree that one person's freedom ends where another's begins. Hence, we would respect another person's right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't harm someone else. But this usually only refers to other humans. Why is it ok to harm, torture and kill our 2D brethren? (Make no mistake: Animals raised in conventional 'factory farms' are routinely tortured.)

To illustrate: If someone here on the forum stated that they personally liked to rape little girls, would we be saying, "Well I don't personally rape little girls, but I respect your choice to do that" ?

I know I'm bringing up a very delicate subject here, but I feel that we've been dancing around the core issue. My intention isn't to judge anyone for eating meat. I am just honestly trying to understand how this act of violence can be justified by otherwise 'aware' people. I can only conclude that they either don't view it as violence because they consider animals lesser beings, or they are not aware of the suffering that is going on.

Pablisimo's post (#25) has given me the courage to vocalize what I had been suppressing, for fear of offending anyone. If I do offend anyone, I sincerely apologize! As I mentioned, my own husband eats meat occasionally. (In his case, he embraces the vegetarian diet but has chosen to allow himself to evolve to it naturally. But he doesn't pretend that it's 'ok.') So I truly don't wish to judge anyone. I am sincerely just trying to understand how the killing of animals can be reconciled with the STO path.

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I perceive its life force as being radiant and happy to merge with mine. I don't think its life force has exited its body when I pull it out of the ground, as the soul of a deer exits its body when the bullet kills its body in a bloody act of violence.

I agree. The life force of the lettuce is only fading away slowly from the moment it is taken away from its nourishing ground. :-/ And it is only when it is actually under our teeth that it starts to suffer and die, not very differently than when a tiger eats a live animal.

I respectfully disagree. On what basis do you think the lettuce is suffering? I see no evidence of that. Whereas, there is abundant evidence that animals are suffering when they get slaughtered.

The carrots and potatoes are definitely still alive. They continue to grow sprouts until their life force merges with mine.

Oh yes, they are trying hard to survive until the last second.

Again, on what basis are you presupposing this? This sounds like mere speculation. Why do you attribute 3D characteristics (free will, sentience) to 2D entities? Note that animals are closer to graduation to 3D than most plants, the exception being some trees (according to Ra...will produce quote upon request).

Partaking of the life-force that is all around us is like breathing the air and drinking clean water. It's life!

I agree that everything is alive, every thing. However, water is a liquid crystal which life force is not taken from it when we drink it. We do not take life from air either when we breath it; however, we imprint both with our thoughts & feelings (see the work of Masaru Emoto and the memory of water). If our thoughts and feelings are high enough in positive good energy, how do you think that it affects the environment when people and animals drink the water and breath the air? We need to be aware that the air and the water upon the Earth are the same however they are in constant circulation, cleansing and distributing ... wherever they go. They are cleansing and distributing the thoughts and the feelings which we pour into them. And, by our thoughts and feelings, we create, we co-create.

Food is also constantly circulating. Our waste becomes food for other life (or, at least it would, if we didn't use modern toilets!).

I disagree that life-force isn't taken from air and water. Try doing some Chi-kung exercises. You will be filled with life-force! Try breathing deeply after a thunderstorm. You will be filled with life-force! Try drinking water fresh from a mountain spring or a freshly melted glacier (or a Kangen water ionizer machine!). You will be filled with life-force!

I disagree that they are the same. Air can be pure and fresh, or it can be polluted and toxic. Water can be acidic, oxidizing, and poisoned, or it can be energizing, alkaline, and life-giving. Each can be dead, or full of life energy.

The slaughter of an animal against its will is death. It's violence.

And the lettuces, aren't we acting against their will or do we ask their consent before eating them raw?

Your question presupposes that 2D plants have free will. Do they?

We know that animals have free will, though not to the extent of humans. Anyone who's ever had a dog or cat knows this. They have personalities. They think. They can be playful, teasing, angry, and even devious. They most definitely have free will.

As a shaman, I have seldomly see a life which wants to be eaten or, to perish, so far and, this includes plants.

Under what circumstances did you observe plants about to be eaten? Did you observe plants about to be harvested by a machine? In which case, of course the spirit fled in terror! Or, did you observe a lettuce lovingly harvested by an appreciative gardener?

We have to accept that we kill in order to eat, We have to be aware of what we do. Because if we are not aware of the everyday killing of life, how can we ever do something about it? It is about awareness and responsibility.

What do you propose we 'do' about it? I am doing something about it. I refuse to participate in the killing. I cannot control the killing of microorganisms when I breathe. But I can choose to not participate in the obvious suffering of an almost-3D partially sentient entity who shrieks in terror and pain when killed to satisfy...what? A lust for the taste of meat? For what reason is this beautiful being suffering?

We can debate whether lettuces feel pain. But we cannot debate whether cows, chickens and deer feel pain. They do. Indisputably, they do.

I can choose to not participate in that.

I think that if a soul is sentient enough to have free will, it won't incarnate into the body of a carrot. It'll choose an animal body so it can run for its life. I think that's a clue.

The lettuce would run for its life if it only could!

This is speculation. How do you know that? Again, we know the cow will run for its life. We know the fish will frantically swim away from the net. How is it even remotely logical to justify the killing of an entity (any animal) who is obviously suffering, by saying that some other entity (lettuce) might be suffering?

To clarify:

I know the cow suffers. I know the cow doesn't want to be killed.

I don't know that about the lettuce. I have only your opinion to go by. I respect your opinion as a shaman, but, to be honest, I don't take it as absolute or authoritative. Why would I continue to support the suffering of an animal, whose suffering is without question, just because a lettuce might also suffer? A lettuce whose suffering is highly questionable? Even if you are correct and the lettuce does suffer, why would that justify the conscious support of animal suffering?

The Earth is the Logos (or octave) above us. My concern about food chain is about densities above us. As a principle, on Earth, life feeds from the density below, meaning that we are food for someone. I just wonder what it is that they 'eat' from us.

Respectfully, I think you are making some assumptions here. I don't think we can assume that, just because a pattern is prevalent in the lower densities, that it is also prevalent in the higher densities. For example, violence, division and separation are all prevalent in 3D, but presumably not in the higher densities. Likewise, the pattern of 'life feeding from the lower life-forms' you observe in 3D might not be relevant in the higher densities.

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