There isnt that much freedom it seems...and INFINITY

[βαθμιαίος]

This discussion has reminded me of that because our current state of finiteness seems to be denied. My understanding of the arguments put forth is that the illusion is somehow not valid, and anything perceived inside the illusion doesn't even exist.

With respect, I think you're arguing with your Christian Science practitioner acquaintance more than with me. I stated that the illusion is an exquisitely wrought gift that the logoi have offered to the Creator. I am in no way saying it's invalid or non-existent. I am saying that it's a mask for infinity. That doesn't mean it's bad. Its whole purpose is to allow us to learn, change, and grow, and that's a good thing.

It reminds me of how people are often put off by Ra's use of the term distortion. To Ra, distortion is not necessarily a bad thing, but people hear the word and think it must be. In Ra's terms, distortion is any movement away from undistorted unity. You can have a distortion towards love, strength, wisdom, etc.

Similary, as I understand it, illusion is a technical term that Ra uses to refer to any creation, whether it be galaxy, star, solar system, planet, third-density reality, etc. They're all forms that have been created to allow infinity to experience limits. It doesn't denigrate those forms to point out that they were created for infinity to experience itself.

Have you ever read The Cosmic Serpent by Jeremy Narby? The author describes how he takes ayahuasca and has a vision of immense snakes forming and reforming themselves into various shapes and bodies. He gets the idea that the snakes are DNA and the forming and reforming are how evolution occurs: DNA chooses a new form for itself. This is similar to what I'm trying to describe about how infinity forms and reforms itself into different illusory systems of natural laws.

Infinity contains everything; hence, everything is real, including that which is perceived inside the illusion. All is contained within infinity, and infinity is also contained within the illusion. The difference, as I perceive it, is that infinity has no limits, but infinity within an illusion has the limits of the illusion.

Right, but the limits are illusory. Ra says that we can drop them if we reach violet ray. Most who reach violet ray don't choose to because, as you and I have both said, the illusion is valuable, but it is possible.

Even Ra's statement, "You are infinity" contained an implicit qualifier: the word you. By its very nature, by being a definition, it is a qualifier. Who are we? That is the quest.

Exactly. That's the whole point. Who are we?

There is no conflict. We can be both infinite and finite. Ra stated we are infinite. Ra also stated we have distortion, which I interpret to mean finiteness. There is not only 1 state; there are infinite states, of finiteness. But only ONE infinity.

True. Ra says the hallmark of an infinite creator is variety. But they also encourage us to focus on the infinity rather than on the finity: "26.32 Why then be concerned with the grass that blooms, withers and dies in its season only to grow once again due to the infinite love and light of the One Creator? This is the message we bring. Each entity is only superficially that which blooms and dies. In the deeper sense there is no end to beingness."

We are The Fool. But we are also all the other archetypes along the way. All are valid. Unless we can claim to be in a constant state of The Fool archetype, I don't think we can claim to be in a perfect state of infinity at all times. We traverse the Tree of Life, corresponding to the Tarot archetypes, astrology and numerology. This is the sacred path and it embraces both infinity and finiteness. I am suggesting that we honor our finiteness as well as our infinite nature.

Totally agree.

If we have limited our perception, for whatever reason, then we have essentially created another state. This other state, of finiteness, has its purpose too. I don't think we should negate it just because it is illusory and temporary. If it didn't have a purpose, we wouldn't be in it.

Right. That's what I've been saying throughout this thread. I went back and re-read the posts at the time of my initial involvement in this thread. The discussion went like this:

unity100: its not they chose and limited themselves to various manifestations and 'remembering'

βαθμιαίος: If I understand this quote (1.5) correctly, that's exactly what they did.

unity100: infinity can never be finity. because, if it could, it means it wasnt infinity from the start.

This last quote from unity100 is where I think he comes oh, so close to understanding what Ra's getting at but then goes off-road. It's true that infinity can't be finity. That's the point of the illusory mask. Infinity can't be other than what it is, but it can limit its viewpoint, and as you and I have both pointed out, it does that for very good reasons indeed.

I agree! But I don't see anyone doing that right now!

Actually, I think we're all trying to stretch our minds to incorporate the Creator's viewpoint as we discuss infinity. Of course, we're not necessarily succeeding, but we're certainly trying.

Ra didn't say any portion contains infinity. Ra said any portion of any pattern contains infinity.

They actually said "any portion of any density or illusory pattern ... contains the One Creator which is infinity." It's ironic that you keep using this quote to explain things to me, because I've used it several times to try to explain the concept of a holographic universe to unity100.

Here's another quote on the same topic, "the unity of the Creator exists within the smallest portion of any material created by Love, much less in a self-aware being."

This is another of the quotes that I am suggesting we take into consideration, and then consider the sum total of all the quotes, rather than just a single quote.

I totally agree. I really think my position is what Ra was trying to articulate. I could be hopelessly wrong, which is why I asked before for other quotes that disagreed with my position. I don't think unity100 disagrees that I'm saying what Ra said; I think he just thinks Ra was wrong.

I agree that it is available to us. I also agree with unity100 that no one in this discussion, at this point of time, is offering that perspective.

You seem to have gotten the idea that I think I'm undistorted and infinite, or something. I assure you that's not the case! The veil is firmly in place for me, too.

I don't see this as an issue, though. We can experience infinity from within our selves, and that is the same pattern as the infinite whole, because we are holographic. I really don't see a conflict. I am happy and content to be a holographic pattern of the whole. I would not claim to be the whole, although I understand that the whole is contained within me, and I in it.

I think that's an admirable attitude and it's really not very far from my own, although I do try, from time to time in meditation, to be the whole, which involves, as you have pointed out, releasing our identity, or as Ra calls it, the dissolution into unity.

The One Creator is infinity. We are infinity. And yet, Ra provided other quotes that showed a distinction between the 2, and other quotes that showed a distinction between infinity and distortion. All of those quotes must be taken together, not one by itself.

I again encourage you to dig those other quotes up and post them here if they haven't already been posted.

Thank for you the stimulating and respectful discussion! This is fun!

To be honest, it's much more enjoyable now that you and others have joined the thread. It felt more like a battle before.