In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

For the record, I didn't post that as an argument, it was purely for the sharing of information in response to Pab's mentioning of plants not 'feeling pain'.

Thank you for that clarification!

Note that I mentioned stress, and not pain. These are two entirely different concepts.

And thank you for that as well...exactly what I was trying to convey.

Pain, as many of us define it, is a sensory product of the central nervous system. We feel pain thanks to our nerves. Our hair and nails do not have nerves and hence we do not feel pain when they are cut or damaged.

Excellent point.

However, hair and nail cells do 'sense', as they have been tested in similar ways as the plants by the same man. They respond to emotional spikes of the 'donor'.

Very fascinating! I wasn't aware of this. I find this highly significant.

Sensing and feeling are entirely different experiences. I have no doubt plants do not feel pain in the same vein as animals do. Different densities; different aspects of consciousness and sensory experience.

Agreed!

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same goes for an animal.

I disagree, because the animal never wants to be eaten. Animals always fight for their last breath. They make their choice clear.

It's debatable whether plants have offered themselves to be consumed by humans. I contend that they have. You say that haven't. We can disagree on that point, but we cannot disagree that animals want to be eaten, because animals make it very clear that they don't.

you are saying that if someone ate the plant for its own self interest, it would make plant less stressed. and if for knowledge, service, science, more stressed.

Correct, with the modification that I would replace 'self interest' with 'sustenance.'

with that approach, one could justify a lot of things that are in self-interest of the entity, if done 'lovingly'.

That's true. In most of those cases, I think it would be a gross denial of what's really happening and used as an excuse. The only way to pull this off would be to be completely honest with oneself.

And that is easier said than done, by any of us.

But the fact that something can be abused and distorted, does not necessarily negate its applicability in certain situations.

The fact that this line of reasoning can be used to justify something that is obviously cruelty, does not negate its application in situations that might not be cruel.

Ie., just because it can be proven conclusively (with simple observation) that animals don't want to be eaten, doesn't necessarily prove that plants likewise never want to be eaten.

One does not prove or disprove the other.

Just because we know that animals are self-aware enough to fight us when we try to kill and eat them, doesn't mean that we might not have an agreement with plants, in a symbiotic, mutually beneficial relationship.

If this is true, it is a corruption to use that argument to justify killing animals, whom we know do not want to be tortured or killed. They have let us know that, conclusively.

You may be right that plants are the same as animals. If you do turn out to be right, then we have even more of a challenge.

Most humans have a hard enough time just thinking about eliminating meat. To ask them to also eliminate plants, would be setting ourselves up for sure failure, because humans have to eat something.

Even Yogis who advocate a sattvic diet acknowledge that eating even plants incurs some karma. They say the only true karma-free diet is a diet of fruits only.

I wholeheartedly agree with this! I consider fruitarianism to be the ultimate goal, as long as we still exist in 3D and need to sustain our physical bodies.

Eventually, that will give way to the nectar spoken of by Ra.

In the meantime, I would rather see people quit contributing to the obvious torture of animals. Asking them to quit consuming plants would be useless, at this point.

Later, after most humans understand the suffering of animals, maybe we can talk about the suffering of plants.

But right now, I think that is counterproductive. Most people will not make such drastic changes overnight. It is useless to ask someone to go from eating hamburgers to eating fruit only!

Look at how, even here in a spiritual community, so many people are still denying the suffering of animals; late 2D entities with faces, facial expressions, and obvious communication of pain.

If we tell those people, oh by the way, quit eating everything except fruit, we might as well just give it up. Ain't gonna happen.

I know a lot of otherwise spiritual people who think I am an 'extremist' for not eating animals. Fruitarian? Ha, they'd have a field day with that one.

For the record, unity100, I agree with you that fruitarianism is the ultimate goal and the truly only karma-free diet.

Where I disagree is that I don't think plants=animals. I think we must work in stages, and gravitate towards our ultimate goal. We have to start someplace, and eliminating the obvious suffering is a good place to start. Once we accomplish that, we can then work on the next step.

We must make changes, in ways that are reasonable and feasible.