In regards to eating meat

[Bring4th_Austin]

I don't think any being was designed to be eaten, but rather it became that way as a matter of survival.

There had to have been some sort of design for sustenance.

Yeah, I'm saying that design was: find your sustenance.

But we know plants are living entities.

Here is the crux of our disagreement. What is your definition of entity? You just said in this post that you don't believe plants or animals are individuated until after they graduate to 3D (if I understood you correctly). How, then, could it be an entity, if it's not individuated?

It is an entity in the same way a goat is. Obviously, it strives for life outside apart from other plants.

My understanding of entity is a being who has an identity and an individual being. If you are using a different definition, then that would explain why we're not connecting on these points.

Why don't you think an individual dandelion is and individual being? It is a single dandelion.

And there are carnivorous animals. Why wouldn't the Logos design another type of food for them?

The Logos designed vegetation as food, apparently, since most beings eat vegetation. Carnivorous animals get vegetation second-hand, by eating animals who consume vegetation.

We're all just getting energy second hand from killing something anyways.

I find this inefficient and unnecessarily cruel. I also find it incomprehensible that the Logos would be so cruel as to cover the entire Earth with vegetation, and have it live in constant torture, as it is eaten continuously. Not even animals suffer constantly like that.

Like I said, I don't contend plants suffer like that.

Basing this argument on Ra, it's clear that an entity doesn't become "individualized" until it graduates to 3D.

I strongly disagree. Self-awareness is the prerequisite for graduation, not something entities attain after graduation.

Ra clearly states that the orange ray body is without self-awareness. Any animal or plant is in an orange ray body. An animal cannot form a yellow ray body mid-incarnation. It meets the requirements for individualization before it is awarded self-awareness.

No matter what, a 2D soul returns to the group consciousness after incarnation.

"No matter what"? Why are you so sure about that?

Poorly worded, I should have said "No matter what, a 2D soul comes from group consciousness before incarnation."

Have you never had a cat or dog? Surely you noticed that they have personalities? Surely your goats have personalities? How could this unique soul, this personality, be totally dissolved into the group soul?

It seems you are saying every mammal which we personify graduates to 3D? Do you think all of my goats graduate to 3D when they die? Every mammal you perceive to have personality, does it not return to group soul? Ra says differently.

I'm not buying your argument here, a plant is a 2D entity, and goat is a 2D entity, neither have reached individuation. If I have two plants of the same nature standing next to each other, and two similar goats, I can kill one plant and it's gone, the other remains. I can kill one goat and it's gone, the other remains.

Do you see no difference in the 2 goats?

Do you see no difference in the 2 plants? I could look at one spiny thistle that is runty, crooked, and lacking strong branches, and name him "Runty." He doesn't reach as hard for the sun, but he has hope. Another big, beautiful thistle, is obviously different. They incarnated as individuals just as the goats incarnated as individuals.

Either way, the soul returns to group consciousness. So why is the pain of death worse on animal group consciousness and not plant group consciousness? We return to the argument of plants being "designed" for us to eat.

No, we're past that now, because you have introduced a new element. You have uncovered a core difference in our views. I am quite stunned, actually, to discover that you don't view animals as having individual souls. This is the crux of the disagreement.

They are individual animals, but Ra clearly states that until they reach the point of individuation, they return to the group soul. Are you really saying you think every animal which we perceive to have personality graduates 2D? I cannot agree with this.

I think the crux of the disagreement rather lies in that you don't view an individual plant as "incarnated," never leaving the group soul. Two carrots are two carrots, with two souls similar to two goats. When any die, they return to the group soul. I'm saying that the carrot LEAVES the group soul, then RETURNS to the group soul, just like a goat.

The animals don't have to suffer!

Now that I understand that you don't see a difference between 2 goats, I can now see why you don't consider the killing of the goat to be significant, as long as suffering is removed. Whereas, I see the 2 goats as 2 unique entities, whose lives are being cut short.

So you ARE saying all goats will graduate to 3d? I will again disagree. Not every animal we perceive as having personality will graduate. It takes more investment than us simply perceiving personality.

What sort of effort does it take to responsibly raise and non-violently kill a goat? It's easier than being violent. And it takes much less effort than it does to take care of my garden!

You've missed the point. I wasn't referring to net time spent; I was referring to the educational process, the advertising, the marketing, etc. which, in my opinion, could be better spent educating people about alternatives to eating animals. Instead, their belief that they need to eat animals is being perpetuated.

So you mean you think it's better to educate people about your opinion rather than mine I don't know anyone who doesn't feel that way.

Oooooh Monica, you KNOW I do what I do because of the factory farm animals. People are becoming educated and want responsibly, humanely raised meat. True story, in the past week I've had two vegetarians buy goat meat from me because they simply stopped eating animals because of inhumane animal treatment. Now they know how to find farms which treat their animals humanely, and are ready to start eating meat again. I'm happy people are getting educated about the state of the meat industry as well as the availability of humane meat.

I see that differently. I am sad to hear those former vegetarians went back to eating animals.

I wasn't saying I was happy specifically about the vegetarians. I'm indifferent to them returning to eating meat. It's their choice. I'm happy that the education is reaching people.

Incorrect, the inhumane meat industry is dying because of the efforts. Farmers' Markets are exploding, and almost every single customer that buys meat, eggs, or vegetables from me asks me plenty of questions about how it was raised and processed. We have visitors to the farm that want to know about where their food comes from. There's a movement to become more conscientious about where your food comes from, for vegetables AND meat.

As I've stated before, I commend you for your service and see it as part of the continuum. Please don't take any of my opinions personally. Then the discussion would devolve into defensiveness. I'm interested in discussing concepts, not in judging you or what you do.

I didn't perceive you as judging me, I perceived you as being wrong . You're saying it is perpetuating the problem: it's not. The old rancher is being replaced by a new type of farmer.

Well, the goat's soul travels back to the mass consciousness immediately after death, how is it different for the goat?

I am curious as to what you are basing that belief on.

The fact that, until the animal reaches individuation, it returns to the group soul, as stated by Ra.

I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that when you follow a plant to its roots, that is the entity. Who knows the metaphysical mechanics behind cloning plants, but I don't doubt individual plants are individuals.

I'm confused. Your statements seem contradictory to me. You just said that all plants and animals return to group consciousness, and don't attain individuation until after graduation to 3D. Now you're saying they are individuals? Those statements are contradictory.

They're individual entities like goats are individual entities. Both leave the group soul, and return to the group soul.

Ra:...this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species

A goat is not a 3D entity, right? Which means it CAME from the group consciousness...if it came from an individuated consciousness, it wouldn't be 2D, it would be 3D. Goats are 2D! Ra clearly states it won't ENTER an incarnation from an individuated soul until it GAINS individuation and graduates to 3D.

An individual carrot is an individual carrot, and when it ceases to have a 2D body to inhabit, its soul goes back to the mass consciousness. Same as a goat.

What is the point of being an individual, if the self-awareness it has attained is lost?

Good question.

To take the point a little further, let's use the example of the plant which responded to the thought of its leaf being burned. Do you think every plant of the same type all around the world responded in this way when it was threatened? Or was it just that single plant?

I think it was the group consciousness that responded, not the individual plant. We know that bees, ants, and bacteria all behave as a single entity. A species of bacteria has a body spanning the entire planet, all spread out. But it's a single entity. This has been backed by science. I cited examples to back this up earlier in this thread. I see plants the same way, just physically spread out.

If it was the group consciousness, wouldn't all plants have responded? How could it tell the INDIVIDUAL plant from all the other INDIVIDUAL plants? They are individual plants like a goat is an individual goat, the individual's souls coming from the species group consciousness.

Well, as we've discussed, plants don't have pain receptors. Luckily it's just as easy for a small farmer to painlessly kill animals. I could attempt to tortuously kill a plant and it wouldn't do much physical trauma. Definitely trauma of some sort, but no immediate physical suffering, like an animal would experience. But it takes no more effort to insure painless processing.

Aha! And why, do you suppose, plants have no pain receptors?

We experience physical pain through our nervous system, don't we?

Can you provide the reference? I will provide the quote where Ra says 2D entities return to mass consciousness until harvested to 3D, if you could provide reference for plants existing in a separate state of 2D individuation than animals.

OK. It will be tomorrow though.

Could be a deal breaker for me when you do!

I don't think it would be "generally accepted by society" that weeds contain consciousness. People don't always think of eating chicken nuggets as slaughter, does that mean its not? (I'm sure you know that many are oblivious to where their food comes from)

Of course. But I was referring to the standard dictionary definition of a word. We can't just change its meaning to suit us. We can use different words to describe what we mean, but that word is what it is.

I could find a definition which leaves out the qualifiers for people and animals. In fact dictionary.com has several definitions for slaughter which are simply "to kill (in some) manner," no mention of animals. I use it to describe the process of ending the life as you use it for the same reason.

Well, if you don't differentiate between different levels of 3D life as far as ending its life, why differentiate between levels of 2D life? This may go back to the individuation discussion.

I already answered that. Because sometime in 2D, a spark separates from the 2D group consciousness and becomes individuated, taking on its own karma and beginning its own journey.

And after that incarnation, it becomes 3D. It does not reincarnate again as a 2D animal. Meaning, if I kill a goat, the same thing happens to it that happens to a carrot if I kill it. It returns to group consciousness, where it came from. If it had come from an individuated soul before incarnation, it would not be in a 2D incarnation.

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into the third density in the recent past?

Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

For the animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will.

A consciousness does not experience true self-awareness of individuation until it is harvested to 3rd density. I do not place a line between plant and animal the way you do not place a line between less spiritually aware person and more spiritually aware person.

Please re-read that quote. Individuation causes - this means individuation occurs before cessation of physical complex; ie. while the animal is alive as a 2D entity.

Right, and not before the incarnation, meaning it came FROM group consciousness. And, if it doesn't attain individuation in that incarnation, it returns TO group consciousness.

And when you end a plant's incarnation it inhibits it from doing 2D work, just like when you end a goat's incarnation. You stop it from striving for individuation.