In regards to eating meat

[Bring4th_Austin]

It is an entity in the same way a goat is.

This statement lacks substance. Please clarify.

Being a 2D being, it is a mind/body complex. Both are mind/body complexes. If it had achieved mind/body/spirit complex before incarnation, it would not be incarnating 2D.

Obviously, it strives for life outside apart from other plants.

It's not obvious. Does the tuft of grass strive for life outside other tufts of grass? How did you decide that a tuft was the boundary between individual entities? Does an ivy cutting strive for life outside other ivy cuttings?

Yes, a tuft of grass will strive for life outside of other tufts of grass. Plant it separate from any other tuft of grass and it will still strive for life.

It's weird to me that it isn't obvious to you that a carrot will strive for life outside of other carrots. Kill one carrot next to another carrot, the other carrot strives for life.

It's obvious to me? I don't know what else to say if you don't see how plants strive for life on their own.

It's not obvious. It would be helpful in our communication, if you could define your understanding of entity.

Entity being mind/body complex. This is what Ra describes the orange-ray body being. A physical body complex. That is an entity.

This too is obvious to me. I can't really grasp your concept that a carrot is not separate from another carrot. They're both different physical body complexes, not the same. You kill one, it has no effect on the other. Again, I don't know what to say if you don't perceive them as different body complexes.

Why don't you think an individual dandelion is and individual being? It is a single dandelion.

Ah, apparently you are basing your views on the physical vehicle. I am basing mine on consciousness.

As an example, bacteria are physically separated from one another, yet function as a single being. More obviously, bees and ants. Ask any beekeeper. I am researching beekeeping right now and just read in several beekeeping books the same advice: Aspiring beekeepers must understand that the hive is a single entity. Never mind that each bee has a separate body. The determining factor is consciousness, not the physical body.

I see where some of this miscommunication is coming from. I really need reference from Ra about this. Specifically, there's been extensive study about the physical communication between bees. If they were of one mind, why would they need physical communication?

I know you are of the opinion that the same consciousness that inhabits one carrot is inhabiting the other. I don't share this opinion.

Like I said, I don't contend plants suffer like that.

Then what is the point of our discussion? You seemed to be making the case for eating animals, by pointing out that plants were slaughtered (and, presumably, suffered) the same as animals. If you don't think plants suffer, and you don't believe them to be individual souls, but just return to the group consciousness anyway, then what does it matter if they are eaten or not?

Because I'm not saying we shouldn't eat plants, rather, you are saying we shouldn't eat meat. Obviously we must kill 2D beings to sustain, whether it's plant or animals. You're basing your assumptions on an opinion that even when humanely slaughtered (anxiety free, pain free, happy lives), they suffer. I am saying, if that is true, it is also true of plants.

Ra clearly states that the orange ray body is without self-awareness. Any animal or plant is in an orange ray body. An animal cannot form a yellow ray body mid-incarnation. It meets the requirements for individualization before it is awarded self-awareness.

I disagree. My understanding is that self-awareness is the requirement for individualization.

Well, Ra states the orange-ray body is without self-awareness, but I don't think it changes my point. A 2D entity does not become 3D in mid incarnation, it meets requirements for 3D in mid incarnation. A 2D entity is incarnated a 2D entity.

I think Zenmaster explained it best. 2D beings strive for self-awareness, and exude self-aware tendencies, but it is akin to us exuding 4D love tendencies. Like comparing a line to a plane, and it is not the same thing.

Poorly worded, I should have said "No matter what, a 2D soul comes from group consciousness before incarnation."

Up until it individuates, yes. But once it becomes self-aware and begins its own soul journey, it no longer returns to the group consciousness. I've had cats return to me several times. They are still in 2D but I witnesses an evolution of their consciousness, and they reincarnated several times.

Ra says that once they gain individuation, they will graduate to 3D....once it gains individuation mid-incarnation, it will not again incarnate 2D. In 2D it is just a mind/body complex, once it is inspirited it becomes mind/body/spirit, incarnating 3D.

If your interpretation of the two Ra quotes provided stating this is different, then again there's not much I can say.

It seems you are saying every mammal which we personify graduates to 3D?

By we personify it sounds like you don't consider them to have their own personality - as though we are only projecting onto them.

I ask you again: Have you never noticed personality in your goats, dogs or cats?

Of course they'll gain their quirks and psychological conditioning within the incarnation that will cause them to act a certain way. The goats' personalities can be very obviously linked to genetics...that is, if the father was mean and the mother was mean, you better believe it's going to be a mean goat. Does that mean the soul coming from the group spirit was mean?

I don't want to offend you by extending it to house animals, but I do think people tend to over-personify animals of all kinds, even more so their personal pets. I love my pets, I love my goats, but it doesn't change anything knowing they come from a species mass consciousness.

Genetics plays a huge role in the temperament of animals.

Also, I should point out, where do you think we get our personalities? Do you think that our personalities will continue to develop, or fall away as we progress through densities? The personality is often called by Carla and Q'uo a "personality shell," it is not something inherent in our soul, like biases or polarization. It is mainly something we gain or develop during an incarnation. You noticed how Ra had very little personality.

Do you think all of my goats graduate to 3D when they die? Every mammal you perceive to have personality, does it not return to group soul? Ra says differently.

Ra says that once the entity is self-aware, it begins the journey and no longer merges back with the group. It's a journey. It may take multiple lifetimes before the goat is ready to graduate.

Where does Ra say it begins a journey?

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?
Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

That to me clearly says that once they become self-aware, they enter third density.

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into the third density in the recent past?
Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

For the animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will.

The question was very specific. Ra doesn't say, "Then it will begin its journey to third density." If there were more to it, Ra would have said so, because it was the question which was asked.

Do you see no difference in the 2 plants? I could look at one spiny thistle that is runty, crooked, and lacking strong branches, and name him "Runty." He doesn't reach as hard for the sun, but he has hope. Another big, beautiful thistle, is obviously different. They incarnated as individuals just as the goats incarnated as individuals.

No, I'm not referring to physical appearance! I'm referring to personality! Do you not see any difference in personality, amongst your goats?

They do have personalities. The goats have a brain, thus they're able to develop psychological conditions as well as inherit personality traits from their parents. These two things combined are very clear when examining my goats' personalities.

I've always viewed the brain, and most psychological concepts, to be a filter for our souls. So what I see in humans is their individuated soul, which is an individual and has bias, filtered through the brain, "strengthening" the personality.

What I clearly see in goats is a goat soul, coming from goat mass consciousness, with all the normal goat behaviors, filtered through their brain which was derived from genetics and psychological conditioning. At their heart of it, every goat acts the same. They do have individual personalities, because none of them are going to inherit the exact same genetics and develop the exact same psychological conditions. But I don't take this to mean they're individuated souls.

They are individual animals, but Ra clearly states that until they reach the point of individuation, they return to the group soul.

Yes! It no longer returns to the group soul! But that doesn't mean it graduates at the end of that lifetime!

Why do you not think this? What is the point of 2D incarnation is self-realization has developed? Once we realize, as a soul, we're separate from all other things, 3D work can be begun. Again, I think Ra states this rather clearly.

Are you really saying you think every animal which we perceive to have personality graduates 2D?

It has nothing to do with our perception. It has to do with what is actually happening, with that entity.

Surely every mammal we watch can seem to have a personality because of the nature of mammal genetics and psychology. Do you think every single mammal on the planet has reached self-realization? What would make them different from 3D beings then?

I will again disagree. Not every animal we perceive as having personality will graduate. It takes more investment than us simply perceiving personality.

There's that perceiving again. That's the 3rd or 4th time you've used that term. Why are you concerned about what we perceive? Why is that even in the equation? Ra never gave any hint that our perception had anything to do with a 2D entity's evolution.

I use it because of the way you are relating personality with soul. Q'uo, as well as many other channels, talk a LOT about how our individual personalities melt away within our soul. This is touching on a whole different topic if you want to start this discussion, I can pull up many Q'uo quotes about the nature of personalities. It would make quite an interesting thread, and put a twist on how you are discussing personalities I believe.

I didn't perceive you as judging me, I perceived you as being wrong . You're saying it is perpetuating the problem: it's not. The old rancher is being replaced by a new type of farmer.

It's perpetuating the killing of animals; something that, in my opinion, has no place in 4D.

Killing plants has no place in 4D in my opinion.

The fact that, until the animal reaches individuation, it returns to the group soul, as stated by Ra.

Yes, but individuation is something the goat achieves on its own, from its own evolution, though it may be aided by 3D humans. It isn't something that is 'awarded'! It's part of the evolutionary process. And it can happen anytime in late 2D.

All 2D beings are pulled to 3D, plant or goat. Same as all 3D beings will be pulled to 4D, low 3D or high 3D.

And also, the goat species is no where CLOSE to where the human species was when it achieved 3D status naturally. If you look at the human time-line from before 75,000 years ago, they were very high functioning beings.

The goats act absolutely nothing like a house pet. Even our bottle-fed babies, there is really no love to be given from a goat. If you don't have food, it's not very interested. Even the moms struggle to muster care for their children.

I don't think goats are as high 2D as you think they are.

They're individual entities like goats are individual entities.

This statement isn't saying anything. Please clarify.

Again, until further proof can be given besides your already stated opinions about plant life not having individual souls (which spring FROM their group consciousness), this is going to have to be something that divides us.

Both leave the group soul, and return to the group soul.

That makes no sense. What is the point of having individual awareness, if it's all dissolved at the end of the lifetime anyway?

Like I said, good question.

Here's something to go on. Ra says that when the octave is over, it's common for our soul-streams to continue on to the next octave as the same soul. So we merge into Creator, basically group consciousness for everything, and we come out the same souls we went in.

But, given the Ra quotes, I have no reason to believe an individuated soul would continue on in 2D instead of go on to 3D. I don't see why they would need to "hone" their self-awareness...that's what 3D is for.

Ra:...this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species

A goat is not a 3D entity, right? Which means it CAME from the group consciousness...if it came from an individuated consciousness, it wouldn't be 2D, it would be 3D. Goats are 2D! Ra clearly states it won't ENTER an incarnation from an individuated soul until it GAINS individuation and graduates to 3D.

Ra didn't clearly say that. You are projecting your own interpretation. You seem to be equating 'group consciousness' with 2D.

The other quote states it much clearer. Once individuation is gained, 3D is started.

They are individual plants like a goat is an individual goat, the individual's souls coming from the species group consciousness.

I'm sorry, but repetition of this statement isn't helping. It seems contradictory. In what way is it an individual? Are you referring only to the physical?

I don't share the opinion with you that all animals we see to have personalities came separate from their group consciousness. If you can find Ra material to support the idea that they continue in 2D after they gain individuation, I would be inclined to agree with you.

They're individual entities having individual experiences, but they return to group once incarnation. If they happen to achieve individuation in 2D, they, as they realized they were an individual having an experience separate from the group, get to continue on in 3D.

Aha! And why, do you suppose, plants have no pain receptors?

We experience physical pain through our nervous system, don't we?

You didn't answer the question. Why don't plants have pain receptors? If they are the same as goats, why do goats have pain receptors and plants don't?

They are a different class of life that has different characteristics. I don't view these differing characteristics as an excuse to murder them. I just can't agree with "It seems like it was made to murder, so we should murder it instead."

Could be a deal breaker for me when you do!

? What do you mean by that?

I mean, if you show me a Ra quote that says: 1)Plant consciousness does not separate from group consciousness when it incarnates, or 2) 2D entities continue in 2D incarnations after individuation is gained, the argument changes and obviously my argument becomes moot.

And after that incarnation, it becomes 3D.

Not necessarily. Ra never stated that a single spark of self-awareness would result in instant graduation. My understanding is that it's a process.

We'll just disagree until we can dig up some more Ra material with more specific statements.

It does not reincarnate again as a 2D animal. Meaning, if I kill a goat, the same thing happens to it that happens to a carrot if I kill it. It returns to group consciousness, where it came from. If it had come from an individuated soul before incarnation, it would not be in a 2D incarnation.

I disagree. I believe animals absolutely do reincarnate multiple times, as 2D entities, without returning to the group consciousness, once they've become self-aware (individuated). Ra even spoke of the process of karma of 2D entities being automatic.

Philosophically, spiritually, metaphysically, what would be the point of a 2D animal incarnating into a 2D incarnation with self-awareness? How does it carry this into its orange ray body, which Ra says is without self-awareness?

Right, and not before the incarnation, meaning it came FROM group consciousness. And, if it doesn't attain individuation in that incarnation, it returns TO group consciousness.

And when you end a plant's incarnation it inhibits it from doing 2D work, just like when you end a goat's incarnation. You stop it from striving for individuation.

It may already be an individual. That goat has a personality. Tomorrow, when you tend your goats, make a point to look them in the eyes, and you will see it. Personality. It's been there all along. Notice their little quirks and unique behaviors. These are entities. They're not all the same. I invite you to get to know those goats, and then see how you feel about killing them.

It's silly to say I don't know my goats. You seem to miss the point of respecting the entities you kill to feed yourself.

You're right, they all have quirks and unique behaviors. And they're all traceable to genetics and psychology, which is very obvious once you see generations of goats grow up in certain atmospheres. Every single action one of my goats takes, I can pick out as being a behavior inherited or gained through interaction with the other goats. I'm betting, if you did the same with house animals, you could conclude the same thing. Personality traits may seem to reappear because you treat animals the same way, and they gain conditioning through interaction with you.

It doesn't mean we love them any less...



I think that we won't make any progress in this discussion based on our two main disagreements, being:
1) You do not believe plants leave their group consciousness when they incarnate, I do.
2) You believe that entities continue in 2D incarnation after they achieve individuation, I do not.


I also think we should start a new thread discussion the nature of personalities, because the way you view personalities and I view personalities are different. I believe our soul does not contain our personality. I believe our soul shines through our personality, but ultimately the personality is a construct of individual incarnations. I feel like I can provide adequate Q'uo transcripts to support my view of personalities and I think it would be a relevant and interesting discussion to have.

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I found this quote in relation to number 2:

104.11 Questioner: What would that be?
Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we would suggest that possibility/probability vortices include those in which the entity known as Gandalf has a lengthier incarnation. Secondly, we would suggest that this entity goes to a graduation if it desires. Otherwise, it may choose to reincarnate to be with those companions it has loved. Thirdly, the entity known to you as Betty has the means of making the entity more distorted towards comfort/discomfort.

It would seem that it is possible for an entity to reincarnate 2D if it desires, but this is by choice. It may also choose to graduate once it reaches individuation.

It seems that your pets which have reincarnated did so out of choice, not necessity, to be with the one's who gave it love.

I don't feel like this would be the case with any sort of animal besides pets, but it does open possibilities beyond what I was contending.