In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

Firstly, why is it OK to fear, guilt, and shame people into doing the "right" thing? Why does "passion" give somebody a free pass to be manipulative of others?

I'm not really interested in debating Markus' approach. I said at the beginning that it was a bit over-the-top, but I'm able to see past that to his message. Did you see nothing of value in what he had to say?

Thirdly, when people like Markus loudly proclaim health benefits that are not substantiated by scientific evidence, i.e. "Stop Aging + Heal Everything" all it does is create fodder for Big Pharma and their FDA cronies to launch attacks on legitimate practitioners of natural medicine. Thanks, but no thanks, Markus. We have enough difficulties already. But, you know, just to try it out maybe the next time a 250 lb patient with heart disease and diabetes walks into my office I will tell them that there is NO HOPE for them unless they commit to a 100% raw vegan diet. Just maybe, that is the best way to serve them after all.

You're a naturopathic doctor. Obviously, Markus' approach would not be appropriate for you.

My argument here, all along, which seems to have been largely IGNORED, is NOT at all that people should eat meat, or that vegetarianism ISN'T a good idea. Go back and look at the posts, because if you think that's what I have been saying, it is a total projection on your part.

I know you didn't say that. But you did say that it doesn't matter. This is a thread about the spiritual implications of eating animals, from a Law of One perspective.

What I have been saying is that trying to base vegetarianism on an absolutist philosophical doctrine of harmlessness does not hold water. As evidenced by this very thread! It just goes ON and ON and ON and the debate will obviously never be resolved. Why? Because there is no clear and concise answer. There is no hard line to draw in the sand.

If we wanted clear lines drawn in the sand, we'd belong to some religion.

There is no way for a physical body to subsist in 3D without taking the life of another living being.

True. That's already been established. The discussion is about whether eating plants = eating animals, and whether it's justifiable to eat animals.

There IS, however, a way for people to subsist in 3D without killing each other in acts of war.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning that, other than to defend your own particular chosen cause, with which you know I already agree with you. You said yourself, in the other thread, that you come on strong regarding the war issue. Can you understand that different people have different chosen causes? We all have a role to play. Some people feel as strongly about the meat issue as you do about the war issue. And some feel strongly about both issues. Why criticize the efforts of other Wanderers, such as Markus, who are just doing the same thing you're doing: trying to make a difference in any way they can.

I mean, I don't AT ALL like the heinous and disgusting practices found in the average American slaughterhouse. But seriously, how disrespectful to a human being who has fought tooth and nail over MILLIONS OF YEARS to achieve a human state of consciousness to equate them to an animal whose entire natural life would consist of eating grass, pooping, belching, and occasionally mating.

I have no idea what you're referring to here - was that something in Markus' video? Like I said, I saw value in his overall message. I don't have to agree 100% with his every word, or his chosen delivery method, to find some value in it.

An animal life has nowhere NEAR the potential for choice, spiritual growth, and polarization that a human life does. This much should be obvious. Attempts to draw a parallel between the murder of a human being and the slaughter of an animal are REALLY stretching it. This might be the same thing in your mind, and you are entitled to your opinion, but clearly most people don't agree. Including many other thoughtful people here on this forum.

Tenet, this is a very long thread. That has already been covered, in extensive depth. I hope you understand that I just don't have the time to repeat what I've already said. I invite you to read the whole thread, if you're interested in digging up that issue.

Why isn't it enough to simply promote a plant-based diet ala Dr. Joel Fuhrman? Why isn't it enough to point to the obvious advantages to the health of the human being, and the planet, to eat nutritionally-dense foods and to leave it at that? Can't we just trust that, as people incorporate more nutritious foods in their diet that they will eventually come to crave them instead of red meat?

If that is the approach you are using, then you are doing your part. Let others do their part too.

No that's not enough for some. They will not rest until everybody's diet is 100% meat free. Why?

For the same reason you will not rest until all wars have been eradicated.

Because they are basing their view on a flawed philosophical principle.

In your opinion. I however see no flaws philosophically in promoting an end to the slaughter of animals. It is only the question of eating plants that is more complex which we are trying to work out by discussing.

AND because they are (again) filtering this philosophy of harmlessness down through an absolutist Judaeo-Christian-Muslim belief system which sees NO CONTRADICTION in using low-vibration tactics in an attempt to raise the vibration of others.

Ha, yeah that video was very evangelical! But I found that aspect of it rather humorous. I even thought, "Cool! Maybe he will get some of the fundamentalist Christians to switch over to a new religion - one based on better principles than their warmongering, meat-eating religion!"

It's not the approach I would choose, but neither did it bother me as it clearly does you. His message will reach those who respond to that sort of message. However I really do like his wild foods video and his bodybuilding video. Great info! I'm glad I didn't let any aversion to his evangelism get in the way of ordering those dvds! If I had, I would have missed out on some very helpful info!

Do you know what it is called when people frame a loving message with fear? Emotional abuse. So let's emotionally abuse our human brothers and sisters in an attempt to stop the physical abuse of our animal friends. That kind of thinking can only make sense in the mind of one who, themselves, is being abused by somebody who supposedly loves them.

Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit.

What it is you're calling bullshit? Are you still talking about the video, or about this discussion, or what? Please clarify.

I eat vegetarian at least two days a week. The rest of the time I mostly eat seafood or organic chicken. About once a week I will have some beef or lamb. I don't have one iota of concern whatsoever about the supposed spiritual repercussions of this behavior.

Then why are you in this discussion?