In regards to eating meat

[Bring4th_Austin]

Thank you; that was very educational! I didn't know any of that. Are you saying that it's impossible to have a sustainable farm without animals? That if I compost regularly, I cannot grow fruits and vegetables, without animal input?

Compost will only go so far, and it isn't a long term solution. Systems shown using only compost as their sole amendment have worked for perhaps a generation, but ultimately have toxicity and salt problems with the soil. Also, in an ideal closed system, we would not produce as much compost as would be needed to continue to grow food. Plus think about how much compost one would need to cover an acre of crops, especially on land that has been cultivated for 2 years in a row...there's just no way to do with without compost input. This is bringing in material from other systems which ultimately isn't sustainable.

For some time, livestock being included in a sustainable system wasn't thought of as necessary. For a while, there was a system called cover cropping, growing different varieties of plants which pull nitrogen from the air and return it to the soil after being tilled in, which seemed to work just fine. That coupled with a small amount of compost and some very rare rock mineral amendments seemed to work fine. But over time, people noticed a few things wrong, mainly highly increased pests, highly increased disease (both resulting in very decreased yields), and a loss of symbiotic ecosystems (sacrificing the viability of the land). It was discovered that the act of tilling, turning the organic material from the cover crops into the soil, was destroying habitats for beneficial bugs. It was also found that doing this would choke out other organisms which thrived on diversity. Tilling can also cause erosion. Cover crops only promote certain types of micro-organisms in the soil, and the live going on under the soil is more important than anything you see above the soil. There have been different experiments, like just flattening cover-crops instead of turning them in, but this cannot return near the amount of nitrogen to the soil as a new season of crops would require, since there is hardly any contact of the organic material with the soil, and much of the nitrogen would escape to the air. Even if this system were sustainable without livestock, livestock would fit into the picture just perfectly with just a little extra stewardship, and nutrient output could be massively increased with meat consumption.

The key is a balanced ecosystem. Having a rotational system which includes all elements possible...cultivated crops, cover crops, animal forage time, and a rest period, the ecosystem will thrive and soil will be healthy indefinitely. On top of that, livestock control weeds, pests, and can help make soil workable.

Sure, it's possible to put animals into the system without eating them, but what we need is efficient food production systems. Maximum output with no impact. Asking people to be vegetarian would be asking them to sacrifice this efficiency, which ultimately means less food for less people on more land.

I don't have all the answers. What I do know is that, once we start making choices in alignment with our spiritual principles, the UniVerse will align itself to accommodate our choices.

Our spiritual principles, or your spiritual principles?

What you just described might be true of the reality we've lived in thus far. But it needn't necessarily be true in the reality we're creating.

If we decide to create a reality based on compassion, and the desire to reduce or eliminate animal cruelty, then a method for sustainable living will manifest.

It's nice to talk about, but using and spreading the knowledge we have now to help the world become sustainable is the goal. I won't withhold practices and knowledge from hungry people based on the opinion that eating plants is more spiritual than eating animals, especially when 1) not everyone believes this, and 2) we're killing plants too!

There's a couple things. Of the foods which vegetarians can eat for protein,

This is a myth. Vegetarians don't need to eat soy to get enough protein. It's a myth that we must consume 'protein-rich' foods at all. Any well-balanced diet supplying sufficient calories, will meet protein requirements.

Well, I know that it isn't simply that easy, because I've had 1 vegan friend and 1 vegetarian friend have issues because of lack of protein (and other nutrients) consumption. And I don't know a single vegetarian/vegan who doesn't drink soymilk.

But that's beyond the point. When you talk about a "balanced diet," you could use more land growing all the plants you need for a balanced diet, or you could refrain from growing the plants which would give you the same nutrition as meat, and significantly increase your food output.

Animals just seem like a completely roundabout way to get these nutrients. All the talk about "killing" plants. I mainly eat fruits, nuts, and seeds. The leaves I eat do not kill the plant if I go out back and take 2 or 3 from each plant.

I am currently growing kale, spinach, chard, beets and several varieties of lettuce. Every day, I gratefully pull a few leaves from each plant, to use in my smoothies and juicing.

The next day, uncannily, it seems as if the plants had all grown many leaves overnight! It's weird! They just seem to be growing and growing and growing, so prolifically! It seems like the more I harvest, the more the plants offer to me!

The problem is that these things won't grow in every season, in every climate. Off-season veggie demand is hard enough to fill in milder climates. And I don't think that you'll convince a village in Africa which relies on goats as a major source of food that they can make up for that by growing kale in their backyard.

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Regarding the humane raising of animals for meat:

There is the issue of freedom. Plants don't move around. Animals do, including fish. So, no matter how humane, they are being forced into an unnatural environment. Free range cattle would have it the best in this regard, as they roam over large areas.

We are not allowing the plants to be free by cultivating them for food. The lettuce wants to grow up big and bolt...do we let it? The carrot, the beet, the radish, all want to send seed out and multiply...do we let it? The fruit tree is producing fruit for only one reason: to spread it's seed. Do you plant every seed from every fruit you eat?

Most plants get too bitter to eat after they reach maturity. Growing vegetables for consumption means stunting and cutting off that maturity. If the plants didn't want to do these things, then why are they trying? And why are we stopping them? Plants grown for consumption are not any bit as free as a free-range cow. They're cared for and looked after, but ultimately, we are not allowing it to act naturally. These plants are striving to survive and multiply. If you give them the chance to send out seed, they'll do it, but we don't.