In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

Sure, it's possible to put animals into the system without eating them, but what we need is efficient food production systems. Maximum output with no impact. Asking people to be vegetarian would be asking them to sacrifice this efficiency, which ultimately means less food for less people on more land.

Thank you for the info! Very educational.

It's a moot point, really, because the entire human population isn't going vegetarian any time soon. If factory farms were replaced by the kind of sustainable farms you describe, that would be a huge improvement! If that were to happen in our lifetime, I would consider it a success.

Meanwhile, while conscientious farmers like you are working on improving the farming situation, people like me are working to grow our own food as much as possible, so that there's less demand put on farmers like you. There is a huge movement to grow a lot of food in tiny backyards. A few dwarf fruit trees, an intensively planted raised bed garden, many more plants in pots, a sprouting system...Some people are even removing their driveways to make more room to grow food!

There is a huge crop of books on this subject, with titles like Food not Lawns, Edible Landscaping, etc.

I don't see everyone doing all this any time soon, but before much longer, they might not have any choice. If more and more families grow at least a good portion of their own food, then that would take a huge load off the farmers.

I see all of this as a positive transition away from the horrible factory farms and towards a plant-based diet.

Our spiritual principles, or your spiritual principles?

Well clearly we don't all have the same spiritual principles. But I hope you can understand that, from the point of view of someone who considers the meat industry to be oppression, obviously they will hope that others will realize this too. Whether you agree with that or not, I hope the premise behind it is at least reasonable and understandable.

It's nice to talk about, but using and spreading the knowledge we have now to help the world become sustainable is the goal. I won't withhold practices and knowledge from hungry people based on the opinion that eating plants is more spiritual than eating animals.

Your goal as a sustainable farmer is different from my goal as an activist for animals. However, there is a lot of overlap between our goals. As I've stated multiple times, I have no issues with what you are doing. I don't see it as the ultimate goal, but I see it as a very positive step in the right direction. I readily admit that my vision of the ultimate goal - everyone being vegetarian and finding a way to sustain that - is something I am working towards, but isn't likely to happen any time soon, and it can't happen at all without people like you.

Please understand that I am not, in any way, implying that I am 'more advanced' than you or that my goal is 'better' than your goal!!! I hope I am making this abundantly clear. For a vegetarian to show appreciation for a farmer who kills animals for meat is pretty extraordinary, I think. And I do have appreciation for you! I realize that my ultimate goal cannot happen without you, so I thank you for what you are doing and for the information you share. We must work together on this instead of having a contest of "who's the purest of us all."

Well, I know that it isn't simply that easy, because I've had 1 vegan friend and 1 vegetarian friend have issues because of lack of protein (and other nutrients) consumption.

These can be addressed without soy. It's very easy for vegetarians who eat eggs and moderate amount of dairy. It's true that it's a bit more challenging for vegans. Some vegans do need to supplement with superfoods, for the simple reason that the foods that are supposed to have high amounts of protein simply don't contain the protein they used to. Corn has about 20% of the protein it had a few generations ago (if I remember correctly). It takes 75 bowls of spinach to equal the iron content found in a single bowl of spinach in 1948. US wheat has been refused for export because it contained zero protein!

The foods people are eating are unnatural, and mere shadows of their former selves, due to chemical farming, GMO, erosion of mineral-rich, microbe-rich topsoil, etc. All of which you know better than I do.

So yes, meat has some concentrated nutrients. Yes, it requires more education to be a vegan.

But it's quite doable.

And I don't know a single vegetarian/vegan who doesn't drink soymilk.

You do now! I never drink soymilk. The last time I had soymilk was probably 20 years ago.

We are not allowing the plants to be free by cultivating them for food. The lettuce wants to grow up big and bolt...do we let it? The carrot, the beet, the radish, all want to send seed out and multiply...do we let it? The fruit tree is producing fruit for only one reason: to spread it's seed. Do you plant every seed from every fruit you eat?

Those are all assumptions. We really don't know what the oversoul of all those plants wants. The botany of Desire makes a good argument in favor of plants actually using humans to help them proliferate.

I go back to my previous post: What kind of cruel design would that be, if all plants writhe in agony when they're eaten?

When I pick some leaves from my kale plant, I perceive it as singing with joy. It eagerly starts replacing the leaves I harvested, so uncannily fast I sometimes wonder if there are little elves magically making more leaves! If I'm wrong in my perception, then I can't really trust anything I perceive.

Now the argument will surely come from someone, that they are perceiving animals as enjoying getting killed...

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I was talking about a humanely-raised and humanely-slaughtered animal. It's not suffering or dying by the side of the road.

Is every meat-eater buying only 'humanely' raised meat? I don't think so. My comments are addressed to anyone and everyone, not you personally. I avoid making any judgments about anyone's personal choices. I am speaking in generalities.

The point of the analogy was to show that nearly every meat-eater would help that dog. This shows that it's intuitive, natural to feel compassion for an animal. Any animal.

How many people would stop the car to save the lawn from being mowed?

The very idea is absurd. Why? Because we don't have a natural inclination to save plants.

Surely there is a reason for that.

To take the analogy further, maybe some of those humans by the side of the road aren't in agony, but they're victims of sudden, swift, violent crime. Then what?

My point is that there's a reason we feel a natural inclination towards compassion, and by eating animals whom we would help if they were injured, we are suppressing that natural compassion.