In regards to eating meat

[Tenet Nosce]

I see it more as a 1-room schoolhouse, with many students at varying levels of development.

Yes, I guess that is a more accurate characterization. Though I get the feeling that many are being held back because the few keep failing the same basic lessons.

But, they're not all kindergartners.

True... but wouldn't the kindergartners need the most focus at this particular nexus? I'm thinking the advanced students have already learned how to get by on their own?

I don't think everyone is unable to grasp animal cruelty though. Many are. An increasingly high number of people are grasping it. It may be too advanced for most, but not for all.

You know, I haven't really been thinking much about those who don't even believe animal cruelty is possible!? Wow there really is such a wide swath of awareness we are working with here. Some people really are quite clueless... it is a wonder they still manage to stay incarnated with the increasing vibrations and all...

What you are here to do and what I am here to do might be drastically different.

It could be, but I very much doubt the difference is actually that "drastic".

We each must tune in to our own Higher Self and our own personal life mission.

Yes, but that does not preclude meaningful discussion about what wanderers are here to do as a group. We may hail from the far reaches of the universe, but have responded to a common call. Yes?

Sometimes things are necessary for the express purpose of providing catalyst so that we learn to not choose those things.

Well yes, that is what I am getting at. Suffering seems to be built into the fabric of this particular Creation... so we must all agree to be on either side of it at some time during the dance. Not that I like this any more than you... but it does seem to be the case.

So it's not quite so simple as 'do whatever you want' because it often affects others. It opens up a can of worms trying to sort it all out.

It really is a conundrum! I mean... if we take seeing others as self to the extreme then we get the negative path. It doesn't matter if what I do affects you, because you are me and I don't care. On the other hand, seeing too much self in others leads to a different kind of control dynamic where I decide what is best for you because I am you and I do care.

If it were proven at this time, then I would schedule a meeting with the Sub-Logos asap and ask what the hell they had in mind, designing the planet like that!

Well I suppose on a more esoteric level, this is what I am getting at. What did the Sub-Logos have in mind, anyway? What would be the point of making humans omnivores, but then expecting them to only eat certain things? This kind of smacks of religious rhetoric which says God gave you genitals, but you are not to use them.

Oh yeah. Well I don't know what to say to that. Too weird for me!

Too weird for us... but apparently not for the Sub-Logos!

Interesting point. Many people on the road to vegetarianism give up red meat first, then poultry, and fish is the last to go. (and then eggs and dairy if they decide to go all the way to vegan.)

I've often wondered why that is so. There didn't seem to be any logical reason why eating cows was considered worse than eating chickens, and eating chickens was considered worse than eating fish, etc. But that's just sort of the way it has worked out. I never liked fish so I skipped that step, but this particular sequence is very well known and considered the normal way to do it.

If what you're saying is true then that might indicate chicken are more aware than fish, and there might be some biological evidence of that.

Right... so if there is a pattern there is a principle to discern. I wonder what that is?

But you are highly driven! You're highly driven to intellectual discussion of deep philosophical concepts!

Well... I guess I don't really understand that either! These discussions often don't seem to lead anywhere productive.

Man, did you have to tell me that! Now I'll need to get Diana to come over to my house and escort out my fruit flies!

I got it from your own quote!!

Many of us are starting there. Animal activism isn't the only cause I'm involved in! It may be for some, but not for me. It isn't even at the top of my list; ending war is. (Which is why I am currently spending a couple of hours every day doing phone calls for Ron Paul.)

Ending the Fed would probably do more to curb the animal food industry than anything else government could do. See... this is what I like about Ron Paul. He relentlessly hacks at the roots of the problem and doesn't waste time fussing with the branches.

But, doing what we can to reduce the meat industry, whether it's by raising awareness of animal suffering or enlightening people about better health choices, will have the same end result: less animal suffering, better health for humans, a more efficient, cleaner and better sustainable ecosystem, a cleaner planet, and, ultimately, less heavy energy on the planet. All of the above are important.

Well, sure. I hope I haven't come across as arguing against that.

Firstly, you don't know if he even had a family at all.

I'm pretty sure he mentioned them... he actually leaves his family behind for some time every year for the seals. I don't mean a couple weeks, but several months.

Secondly, those videos have indeed saved many seals! That particular seal didn't get saved, but others later did, because of that video which was used to educate. Just like the slaughterhouse videos.

But did it? I don't know... I already didn't buy furs before I watched it. Do you think it really changed that many people's minds? Or mostly just preaching to the choir?

How so? You mean they're avoiding any contact with people because of their yellow ray issues?

Yes, basically. Cold to human suffering, but can't stand to see an ant squished. This is highly unbalanced.

Maybe. If so, so what? Isn't a good thing that they're doing something useful? Maybe they do have issues with humans. That doesn't negate the good they're doing.

No, it doesn't negate the good. But maybe they are missing out on some important lessons? Again... we are dealing with a limited time-frame here. There are 3D lessons that need to be learned in this 3D environment, otherwise one cannot move on. That is the "so what". So somebody learned how to connect with the animals. So what? That sounds like a 4D lesson to me... what about the 3D lesson about connecting with other human beings?

For purposes of this conversation, when I say animals I'm referring to non-bugs.

Well that is fine, but had you specified that earlier (maybe you did but I missed it) it would have saved us quite a few pages of discussion!

Not sure what you're getting at here.

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What I mean to say is that observing suffering in others tends to lead to the experience of compassion. I guess it doesn't have to work that way, but for me it is a tool I use to engender a more compassionate state.

If I were in a world without suffering, I imagine it would take me eons to develop compassion. I also imagine this is part of the reason I am here in this world.

Apparently not, at least in the design of this planetary system. When I grow up I want to design a system without suffering, that still evolves quickly and efficiently.

Might I recommend a thread I started called Future Logoi?

No, the planet will be fine. I'm much more concerned about the inhabitants.

I feel much the same way about the animals. I tend to think the humans are really the only ones in real trouble here. And even with that I must admit that the perception of "trouble" must be due to a limitation upon my consciousness.

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This is actually what many vegans are against. The promotion of life as a "commodity".

This is where I think many vegans get it wrong. Life is not dependent upon having a body. The body is not life. The body is a vehicle for life.

Life is a gift.

Yes. A gift which can never be lost or stolen. Life is eternal.

It is impossible for me to see things from your perspective.

As you wish.

Even after coming to the understanding that I am just a machine with a program, which could be considered highjacked by a consciousness that is not me, I still can't see it any different than a gift.

Even after all that?! But... you are the consciousness... the machine with a program is your body. When your body falls inanimate to the ground, you will still exist and remain quite alive.

And what realities are you talking about?

I dunno. What realities are you talking about?!

Do you really think you get to pick your reality?

Who am "I"?

An Oversoul owns you like I own a toe.

I -am- the Oversoul. And if/when I decide that this body no longer suits my purposes, I will surely discard it and not give it another thought. Is this "not compassionate"? Hardly, I think.

If the toe gets dirty, it gets washed off.

By whom? The hand? Toes and hands are not people, they are body parts.

Your next reality can put you in front of a car.

If by this you mean that I will come back as a squirrel in my next incarnation, I don't think so.

Now just think about this a second, if you didn't learn the lesson on the first try, how many times will you get hit by cars?

As many times as it takes until I cease being too much of a dumbass to keep my vehicle fit for consciousness.

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Making peace with humanity is certainly at the level of obscenity.

Indeed!

To me, it's easier or more natural to do what I can where I can, and making peace with humanity is a something I struggle with, while the animals, plants, and Gaia I can handle.

OK. There is nothing wrong with doing what you can... but wouldn't you admit that it would seem wise to work on the pieces that you struggle with? You will have to face it eventually.

If we are talking about humanity making peace with humanity, and then with animals, plants, and Gaia . . . that might take a while. :-/

That's what I have been talking about. Maybe this is why we have been talking past each other.

If I may say so in a gentle ribbing way, that's a pretty dumbass comment.

The comment was meant to be gently ribbing, so you are certainly welcome to rib me back!

Do you expect the squirrel to understand cars?

1. Yes, I have observed many squirrels to understand cars. Mammals understand when large and fast objects are approaching them- it is built into their neurology. They are -supposed- to stop or run the other way. Only the dumbass ones would continue running into a large moving vehicle.

2. Do you expect me to mourn over the squirrel I inadvertently struck with my vehicle? Seriously?

Would you say the same of your pet dog?

I wouldn't have a dumbass dog that didn't understand not to run out in front of moving vehicles!

But seriously, if such an accident occurred I would mourn the dog. This would be due to my having established a relationship with the dog. I would not expect the person who accidentally killed my dog to mourn as well.

Actually, I was not too long ago visiting with a friend whose family used to have two chihuahuas. One actually did get accidentally run over. The other ran away and fell prey to an owl. I believe the term she used to describe them was "dumbasses". She meant this in an endearing way, if you can believe that!