In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

What we know is that the (1) body requires

Which body? The 3D body, the dual activated body, or the 4D body?

And, is there any difference between the bodies developed for those incarnating here from Mars, vs those from Maldek, vs those from other planets? other than color and facial characteristics?

For example, I know bodies of African descent have certain predispositions to lactose intolerance. Then there is that theory about blood type.

at least 23 different vitamins and minerals for its metabolism

You do mean absorbed, right? As opposed to taken in/consume?

Yes, I am an expert.

Oh, that settles it then. Because of course everyone here knows that we must believe the experts.

The only problem is: Which expert?

So, now that we know someone with a naturopathic degree from an accredited school is an expert, what do we do with that minor little detail: other 'experts' (MDs) don't even respect 'your' type of expert?

See, they claim to be experts too!

So whom do we believe? Which experts do we trust?

Different 'experts' disagree. Look at how many different diets are being touted, all backed up by some 'expert.'

Come to think of it, Dr. John McDougall says it's virtually impossible to not get enough protein on a starch-based, vegetarian diet, provided sufficient calories are consumed. He's an expert too. He's an MD.

And then there's Dr. Gabriel Cousens. He says anyone who WANTS to be a healthy raw vegan CAN, but some have an easier time than others, and those who find it challenging, CAN succeed if they add several tablespoons of superfoods to their dietary protocol. Yeah yeah that might be too much hassle for some people, but it CAN be done, if they want to. He claims a nearly 100% success rate, with those who do this and genuinely stick with it. Lo and behold, the cravings for meat vanish when they add bee pollen and green superfoods (bluegreen algae, spirulina, chlorella, etc.) to their diet. He says we're evolving, and if we want to evolve, we need rocket fuel for our new bodies. He also says that many people CAN be healthy eating meat - physically healthy that is. But for those who consider ethics and spirituality to be also important, they can most definitely be healthy without meat. No question about it. What I like about him is that he acknowledges the challenges some people face, and has found solutions to them. Why? How did he do that? Because he has some 40+ years of experience, and studying the raw vegan diet is his specialty. He doesn't just have book knowledge, but clinical experience with thousands of people. Not to mention he is absolutely brilliant. He ran circles around Dr. Mercola and Dr. Mercola sounded like a kindergartner by comparison, in their 'great meatout' debate. In fact Dr. Mercola really couldn't counter anything Dr. Cousens said, because he backed everything up with actual studies and irrefutable data.

And by the way, Dr. Cousens is an MD. So he is an expert too.

Dr. Atkins was an 'expert' and an MD. He promoted a heavy protein, heavy fat diet, and he died from a heart attack, or is that just a rumor?

Then there's that woman who wrote Nourishing Traditions, that famous book advocating that we go back to caveman days and eat tons of organ meats, butter, and lots and lots of fat. Not to be confused with the Paleo diet, because it's cooked, not raw. She claims to be an 'expert' too, though I don't recall her name, much less her credentials. Has anyone ever noticed how leathery and pasty her skin is? I don't normally nitpick physical appearance, but I can't help but notice an odd pasty or leathery look in the skin of those advocating heavy meat consumption. Dr. Mercola's skin has it too - very leathery. Compare that to the glowing skin and bright, bright eyes of many of the vegetarians, and even more so with the raw vegans. Observing the skin and eyes of someone touting some diet is akin to noticing whether someone is overweight or not, if they are touting a weight loss plan. It's allowable.

All experts, all of them. And now we can add Dr. Tenet to the list. So tell me, which expert do we believe?

And no, I don't have my own fad diet book out there and I'm not trying to promote anything other than to suggest: listen to your body.

Maybe it's because you have me on ignore, or maybe you just missed it, but I don't think you ever responded when I asked how in the world people can listen to their body when they're addicted to sugar, caffeine, etc. or are toxic due to the chemicals in foods? not to mention a slowed down digestion due to heavy meats rotting in their intestines all day, or an inflamed bowel due to gluten intolerance or some other food allergy likely brought about by the atrocious SAD diet that is the norm.

I think I said something like "that's like telling a smoker to listen to his body when it asks for a cigarette" and yes I 'get' that they need to ask what is the nature of the addiction, but where I disagree is that you're saying to do this, in order to decide what to eat. That smoker's body is going to tell him to smoke a cigarette.

But the analogy seems to have been lost on you, because rather than respond to it, you went off into the benefits of tobacco.

Now there's the protein issue. You say a fruitarian diet might be 'dangerous' and challenged yossarian's statements on protein intake, as though there were an epidemic of protein deficiency.

There isn't.

There is, however, an epidemic of diseases stemming from too much protein and too much fat, both of which - incidentally - are found in animal foods.

Since you are well-studied, you surely are aware that osteoporosis and bone loss in general are directly correlated to protein consumption. The higher the protein, the greater the loss of calcium from the bones.

So it seems to me, given the epidemic of osteoporosis crippling women all over the world, you might consider being more concerned about too much protein than fretting about the exceedingly rare fruitarian who doesn't eat enough to satisfy caloric requirements due to ignorance or stupidity.

I forgot what you said was the 'official' protein requirement, but again, do you mean absorbed or consumed?

And who decided this, and based on what? Based on animal studies? Based on human studies? Have the 'experts' taken into consideration that the people used in those studies were likely those on a heavy meat-and-junk-food diet? Have any 'experts' done a study on the protein requirements of raw vegans who do a lot of juicing, soaked nuts and seeds, and green smoothies?

Greens aren't normally considered protein foods. By 'protein' your so-called experts are referring to meat, eggs, etc., right? They aren't really counting the salad, are they?

and yet, have they ever wondered how gorillas get so big and strong?

Yes, it's from protein. You are correct that protein builds muscle. No argument there. But...Guess what? Gorillas get most of their protein from....green leaves.

During certain times of the year, when fruits are not available, protein-rich leaves dominate the gorilla’s diet, the report found. About 31 percent of the total energy intake is protein during these times.

from http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/07/scienc...rilla.html

31 percent! Wow, that's higher than what you said earlier. But gorillas are stronger, have more muscle mass than we do. And they get it from greens.

I think maybe the reason I'm wearying of this discussion is that I keep posting stuff, and no one replies to it. My words just float away like dust in the wind. Then the same arguments come back again, but I'm told I'M the one not listening. Hmmm...

Here, maybe this time you might want to check this out, and respond? Because it's only about a minute or so, and truly is amazing!

Raw Vegan Bodybuilders

Watch just the trailer. I have the dvd set and yes, these guys are for real. They're gorilla men, living on fruit, nuts, seeds, and veggies, including huge amounts of greens.

Is this practical for most average people? No. But then, neither is the standard heavy-meat bodybuilder diet. But these vegan bodybuilders don't get the lactic acid buildup or the injuries their meat-eating counterparts do.

So...seeking common ground here...we agree that a certain amount of protein is required for muscle growth. However, I think these examples of the gorillas and the bodybuilders prove that it's not only possible, but optimal - in terms of better health - to get those protein requirements from a vegan, and even a raw vegan diet.

And I should point out that this thread isn't even about a vegan diet, much less a raw vegan diet! Most of the objections are about veganism and raw veganism. Well, as an aspiring raw vegan, even I am quick to point out that I consider the raw vegan diet pretty hardcore and would never dream of suggesting it unless the person is heading in that direction. So I want to differentiate between the idea that we're advocating a raw vegan diet. We're not. We're just suggesting that most people don't need meat. There is a huge range in between....like simply eating eggs and dairy instead of meat.

Getting back to protein: Ok we've ascertained that those wishing to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger need more protein. But what about the rest of us? You said 'the' human body needs how much protein?

I already asked you which body. Now I will ask: at which stage.

Consider the newborn baby. This is the time of the most accelerated growth, in the lifespan of a human. If ever there was the need for the most protein, it's when we're babies, right?

Well get this: Human breast milk actually has very little protein!

1. Milk is "a natural" only for baby calves. Calves have fours stomachs and double their body weight in 47 days. Human babies have only one stomach and a much slower rate of growth. It takes human babies 180 days or so to double their weight, so they don't need nearly as much protein as calves. Cows' milk is 15% protein (it has 15% of its calories as protein); human breast milk is 5 % protein. Much of the rationale for believing that cows' milk is an ideal food for human babies was based on research done with rats early in this century. The milk of mother rats is 49% protein and baby rats double their weight in just 4 days. This is yet another example of the difficulties we create for ourselves by trying to imitate rats.
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3. Decades of meat and dairy propaganda have made Americans the world's most outrageous protein gluttons. The most frequent question vegetarians hear is, "Where do you get your protein?" The answer is, "Where do horses, cows, gorillas, elephants, and giraffes get their protein?" Corpse-milk-egg protein is secondhand protein, inferior in quality to plant protein. And all plants, even lettuce, have protein....
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5. Question: Where do people who don't drink milk get their calcium?

Answer: Where do cows get their calcium?

6. Question: Who needs the excess calcium that experts recommend?

Answer: The people who sell milk, cheese, and other high prestige and expensive sources of calcium. Raising the amount of calcium you eat by X amount raises their income by X amount.
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8. Calcium deficiency usually does not arise from too little calcium but from too much protein. Dr. John Scharffenberg writes:

A very high calcium intake is necessary in the United States diet because a high-protein diet increases excretion of calcium. In one study, men 18-20 years of age were given protein ranging from 48-141 gm. daily. The higher levels of protein doubled the urinary excretion of calcium when both calcium and phosphorus intake were held constant.... A diet high in meat with its high protein content will therefore increase urinary excretion of calcium.... Vegetarians have significantly greater bone density than omnivores; thus vegetarians appear to be less prone to osteoporosis.

9, The dairy industry has spent millions funding a variety of research schemes aimed at proving that milk is good for us. Meanwhile, what is probably the most extensive epidemiological study ever undertaken in the field of nutrition found, decisively, that the opposite is true.

In 1983 a joint British-Chinese-American study known as the "Study of Diet, Nutrition and Disease in the People's Republic of China" was begun for the purpose of studying the relationship between selenium and other nutrients and death rates from all forms of cancer. Because of its scope and the unique opportunity it offered, the study was expanded to examine many other health issues. It took exhaustive data--367 items per person were followed--on the lifestyle nutritional intake, and health status of 6,500 adults, half men, half women, spread throughout mainland China, over a six-year period. I want to emphasize that this was not an American-style survey in which "researchers" phoned a lot of people and asked them what they had for supper last night. It involved urine and blood analyses, extensive questionnaires, measurements of foods consumed, and detailed examination of a broad spectrum of data that would have been impossible before the age of computers.
...the earliest reports have been shocking, although not unexpected by many...Specifically, Dr. Campbell told the Times that the Chinese study found an average daily calcium intake of of 544 mg. in China, almost none of this from animal products, and "there was basically no osteoporosis in China." In the U. S., by contrast, where there is an average calcium intake of 1,143 mg per day, mostly from dairy products, "osteoporosis is a major public health problem."

The most interesting findings of the China study, however. surface in the area of dietary fat and cholesterol and their relation to disease. U. S. studies have always failed to ask the real questions about animal vs. non-animal diets. Typically, they compare lean meat vs. choice cuts, or skim milk vs. whole milk, so the results fail to address the real impact of animal foods on humans. The China study takes a much broader view and allows comparison of a large base of plant eaters vs. animal eaters. The clear-cut conclusion is that for real-world human beings the greatest single influence on degenerative diseases such as cancer. diabetes. and coronary heart disease seems to be the amount of protein. particularly animal protein. in the diet. Here are some eye-opening facts from the China study as explained by...

from http://www.purewatergazette.net/milksucks.htm

So yes, I understand you are an 'expert' Tenet Nosce. I question experts, because data can be skewed, established conclusions can change, and, most importantly, experts don't all agree.