04-06-2012, 10:55 AM
Yossarian and Ali, you guys are discussing something very important, and I sincerely thank you both for this recent exchange. I have this sense that the answer lies in a fusion between the two approaches you are advocating. To me, you are both making sense and I'd like to make a few comments. However, before I do I'd just like to note that we've shifted to handling conversations about the topic of meat eating in the wider world, outside of a thread devoted to the topic in a spiritual discussion forum. This is perfectly fine, but I think it's an important distinction to make that it really is a different situation and calls for a different approach. In my view, giving direct, clear communication is important here, considering the point of it is to discuss the issue in detail. Participation in this thread is optional for those who are interested and easily ignored for those who are not, and it really is not the same thing as the scenarios you guys have been describing. This is OK, of course, I just wanted to point out that difference.
Ali, I agree with you in principle that being confrontational, even when baited, does not give good positive results. In my early vegetarian days, before I had greater compassion, respect, and understanding for those who still eat meat, I took the bait and got drawn into several of these dinner conflicts. Many times it started just as Yossarian had described, with a meat eater looking to get a rise out of me or argue with me even though I wasn't interested in discussing it at that moment. It's not fair that vegetarians are DE FACTO "ambassadors" for their dietary choice and are often called upon to defend it by those people who disagree with the choice or are upset by a vegetarian simply being present at the meal. And yet, this is the reality I find myself in. Fair or not, this topic brings out very strong emotions in many people and some method of dealing with these conversations in a constructive way is necessary. I learned the hard way that direct confrontation does not lead to the results that I want: greater harmony between myself and other humans and greater awareness of the plight of the majority animals raised for meat in the modern world.
I tried several different approaches over the years for handling such situations, with varying success. I started out with Yossarian's way, as in the early days I was still reeling with the revelations of the consequences of my dietary choices and feeling really self-righteous about it. I felt like these people trying to bait me SHOULD be confronted and that I had to be true to my own convictions. What I got was the results that Ali describes: ruined evenings, strained relationships and bitter feelings.
Yet Yossarian has a very important point as well. We shouldn't accept inferior status and abuse simply because we are in the minority. And vegetarians have, by and large, made their choice on strong personal convictions, that should be honored. You see, I also tried Ali's way of making jokes and downplaying my vegetarian convictions. That worked much better, socially, it really did, but it left me feeling like crap. I didn't have the conflicts, and the dinner evenings went better, and yet I felt like I had betrayed myself and the animals that I care about. The thing is, I DON'T think that meat eating in the modern, factory-farming era is a neutral polarity act. I don't think it's a good thing, or inconsequential, or 'doesn't matter', like I was telling people when the "Ass" baited me. My opinion is that it's a dietary choice that upholds and supports a vast and barbaric system of mass suffering and cruelty involving millions of other beings. Again, I am speaking of the majority of meat produced in the modern era of factory farming, there are some exceptions.
Seriously though, the "Ass" is an Other-Self. That person is the Creator, and I DO care about their feelings. How could I possibly say these "convictions" without it coming across as if I'm attacking them personally or telling them that I'm superior or holier-than-thou? I recognize that sometimes people baiting us are doing it because they feel conflicted on the inside about this and are working through it with Other-selves. It's not always because they enjoy pushing buttons. It may even be well part of their awakening process to explore the feelings that arise about the topic with a vegetarian, and not everyone handles it in the most balanced way.
I also have to balance this with my current understanding. Meat eating vs veg is not a SIMPLE thing and being a vegetarian really doesn't make anyone morally superior. Let's not forgot all the other factors!!! People eat meat due to a variety of reasons. Everyone has unique economic, practical, health, and social considerations. My options are not the same as everyone else's, and what's true for me isn't necessarily true for everyone else. Then there is the very real fact that there are plenty of meat-eating people who are extremely kind, warm-hearted, loving, and spiritual. You also have vegetarians who are absolute a*******. So it's pretty obvious that this one single dietary choice doesn't define a person's moral state of being. Furthermore, we have no RIGHT to JUDGE other people for their choices. We simply don't, and no matter how much I believe that meat eating in the modern era creates a demand for needless suffering, I will not allow feelings of moral superiority, judgement, and separation from my brothers & sisters who see it differently to grow in my heart. I will work on my own flaws, not those I perceive in others. It's not fair for me to judge another, as I am not in their shoes and don't know what life is like for them. I simple will not do it anymore, to the best of my ability.
There is a "Middle Way" between these two approaches, and this is what I try to do: Honor both myself and the Other-self. I try to assess each situation as it occurs, as every situation is unique. When I find myself being baited, I immediately remind myself that the other person is also the Creator. I recognize the confusion present in 3D and remind myself that, however firm my convictions are, I do not have perfect understanding. The Veil is in place. I try to say things that are true to my ideals and yet are respectful to the Other-self and non-judgemental. Sort of like this:
Ass: "Why are you a vegetarian?"
Pab: "Because I decided that it was the best choice for me to opt out of a system I don't agree with."
Ass: "So you think we're all cruel people for eating animals?"
Pab: "No, of course not. I am in no position to judge you or anyone else, and certainly not over one single topic. That wouldn't be reasonable or fair to you, anymore than it would be fair to judge me over one choice I've made."
Now, if a person keeps pushing, then I try again to fill myself with the love and light of the Creator and speak to the Other-Self as someone worthy of respect. I say things like, "Look, yes I do feel that meat eating in the modern era is unnecessary and creates enormous suffering. And yet I also feel that simply the fact that you eat meat does not make you a bad person. I do believe in animal rights but it is just one of many, many, moral and spiritual topics to be concerned about. I am no saint -- I have my own flaws and issues and do not wish to pass judgement on anyone else for what they do. The only person's diet I am concerned about in this space is my own. I have made the choice I believe is best for me, and it is up to you to make the best choice for yourself."
For those people that are "genuinely curious", I tell them that it's complicated to summarize over dinner, and in my experience these kinds of conversations can get emotional just like talking politics, race, or religion. So, how about instead I send you a couple of links and youtube videos that can provide some insight about how animals raised for meat are treated and the vegetarian perspective, if you want to check it out. That way, you can understand my reasons for my choice and we won't ruin a nice dinner if we don't agree. Then after you've checked out the info, we can have an in-depth conversation about it if you still would like to discuss it further. Or if you don't want to, that's fine too. To me, this is respectful both to me and to the Other-self. It recognizes that each person must make their own decisions on their spiritual options in their own good time. It respects free will without me pretending I don't believe as I do.
I did recently have an odd conversation on this. I called my brother (who is very different than me in personal philosophy) up to wish him Happy Birthday. He was cooking steaks for himself (birthday dish) and was half-drunk (also due to the birthday). Because of this I guess he was a little more aggressive than usual and kept saying stuff to me like "Oooo man I wish you could see this flesh cook. That meat smells so goood. Man, I can cook a steak so good. Sorry, I know you love those cows but I just love to eat them. Mmmm Mmm goooooood!" and on and on. Which was really strange considering we weren't talking about food, and I think he was trying to start an argument. This is what I said to him:
Pab: "Oh well steak is much more compassionate than Chicken. If you have to have a meat speciality, you picked a great one!!"
Brother: "Huh? What are you talking about? How is it more compassionate than chicken?"
Pab: "Tibetans eat alot of Yak, which are similar to cows. That area is so poor for agriculture that their civilization never would have been able to exist there in the past without meat eating. And yet they are strong Buddhists devoted to Loving-Kindness. Well, I heard this from them while visiting."
Brother: "So some Buddhists in Tibet told you eating Yaks was more compassionate than Chickens and that's all the proof you need? Sorry I don't get it"
Pab: "No, they just explained it well. They explained that every single life is precious on this earth. All Beings are of equal value -- The human, the Yak, and the chicken. When a Yak is killed, it provides food for many, many people, whereas a chicken only provides food for one or two. Since every life is of equal value, it is far more compassionate to take just one and feed a village than to take a hundred lives to feed the same village. I just really thought this was profound, and I'm proud of you for specializing in more compassionate meat eating. Just remember to thank that Cow for all the many meals it provided you and all the others with its one life."
Brother: "HAHA! Whatever man. I love you, bro, you're such a damn hippie!"
My point is there is ALWAYS something we can say that is both true to our ideals and yet respectful to the other self. You can't get into a conflict with someone else unless you allow it. If you genuinely love and care for other human beings, you will always find a way to communicate with them without causing anger or hurt. And if you genuinely care about the treatment of animals and aren't just trying to judge others, then you will find a way to speak about this issue in a way that helps raise awareness rather than just turn people off to your cause.
The thing to keep in mind here is that we are all Brothers & Sisters. We are all the Creator. As soon as we lose sight of that fact, the conversation is lost, no matter what words we use.
Love to all
Ali, I agree with you in principle that being confrontational, even when baited, does not give good positive results. In my early vegetarian days, before I had greater compassion, respect, and understanding for those who still eat meat, I took the bait and got drawn into several of these dinner conflicts. Many times it started just as Yossarian had described, with a meat eater looking to get a rise out of me or argue with me even though I wasn't interested in discussing it at that moment. It's not fair that vegetarians are DE FACTO "ambassadors" for their dietary choice and are often called upon to defend it by those people who disagree with the choice or are upset by a vegetarian simply being present at the meal. And yet, this is the reality I find myself in. Fair or not, this topic brings out very strong emotions in many people and some method of dealing with these conversations in a constructive way is necessary. I learned the hard way that direct confrontation does not lead to the results that I want: greater harmony between myself and other humans and greater awareness of the plight of the majority animals raised for meat in the modern world.
I tried several different approaches over the years for handling such situations, with varying success. I started out with Yossarian's way, as in the early days I was still reeling with the revelations of the consequences of my dietary choices and feeling really self-righteous about it. I felt like these people trying to bait me SHOULD be confronted and that I had to be true to my own convictions. What I got was the results that Ali describes: ruined evenings, strained relationships and bitter feelings.
Yet Yossarian has a very important point as well. We shouldn't accept inferior status and abuse simply because we are in the minority. And vegetarians have, by and large, made their choice on strong personal convictions, that should be honored. You see, I also tried Ali's way of making jokes and downplaying my vegetarian convictions. That worked much better, socially, it really did, but it left me feeling like crap. I didn't have the conflicts, and the dinner evenings went better, and yet I felt like I had betrayed myself and the animals that I care about. The thing is, I DON'T think that meat eating in the modern, factory-farming era is a neutral polarity act. I don't think it's a good thing, or inconsequential, or 'doesn't matter', like I was telling people when the "Ass" baited me. My opinion is that it's a dietary choice that upholds and supports a vast and barbaric system of mass suffering and cruelty involving millions of other beings. Again, I am speaking of the majority of meat produced in the modern era of factory farming, there are some exceptions.
Seriously though, the "Ass" is an Other-Self. That person is the Creator, and I DO care about their feelings. How could I possibly say these "convictions" without it coming across as if I'm attacking them personally or telling them that I'm superior or holier-than-thou? I recognize that sometimes people baiting us are doing it because they feel conflicted on the inside about this and are working through it with Other-selves. It's not always because they enjoy pushing buttons. It may even be well part of their awakening process to explore the feelings that arise about the topic with a vegetarian, and not everyone handles it in the most balanced way.
I also have to balance this with my current understanding. Meat eating vs veg is not a SIMPLE thing and being a vegetarian really doesn't make anyone morally superior. Let's not forgot all the other factors!!! People eat meat due to a variety of reasons. Everyone has unique economic, practical, health, and social considerations. My options are not the same as everyone else's, and what's true for me isn't necessarily true for everyone else. Then there is the very real fact that there are plenty of meat-eating people who are extremely kind, warm-hearted, loving, and spiritual. You also have vegetarians who are absolute a*******. So it's pretty obvious that this one single dietary choice doesn't define a person's moral state of being. Furthermore, we have no RIGHT to JUDGE other people for their choices. We simply don't, and no matter how much I believe that meat eating in the modern era creates a demand for needless suffering, I will not allow feelings of moral superiority, judgement, and separation from my brothers & sisters who see it differently to grow in my heart. I will work on my own flaws, not those I perceive in others. It's not fair for me to judge another, as I am not in their shoes and don't know what life is like for them. I simple will not do it anymore, to the best of my ability.
There is a "Middle Way" between these two approaches, and this is what I try to do: Honor both myself and the Other-self. I try to assess each situation as it occurs, as every situation is unique. When I find myself being baited, I immediately remind myself that the other person is also the Creator. I recognize the confusion present in 3D and remind myself that, however firm my convictions are, I do not have perfect understanding. The Veil is in place. I try to say things that are true to my ideals and yet are respectful to the Other-self and non-judgemental. Sort of like this:
Ass: "Why are you a vegetarian?"
Pab: "Because I decided that it was the best choice for me to opt out of a system I don't agree with."
Ass: "So you think we're all cruel people for eating animals?"
Pab: "No, of course not. I am in no position to judge you or anyone else, and certainly not over one single topic. That wouldn't be reasonable or fair to you, anymore than it would be fair to judge me over one choice I've made."
Now, if a person keeps pushing, then I try again to fill myself with the love and light of the Creator and speak to the Other-Self as someone worthy of respect. I say things like, "Look, yes I do feel that meat eating in the modern era is unnecessary and creates enormous suffering. And yet I also feel that simply the fact that you eat meat does not make you a bad person. I do believe in animal rights but it is just one of many, many, moral and spiritual topics to be concerned about. I am no saint -- I have my own flaws and issues and do not wish to pass judgement on anyone else for what they do. The only person's diet I am concerned about in this space is my own. I have made the choice I believe is best for me, and it is up to you to make the best choice for yourself."
For those people that are "genuinely curious", I tell them that it's complicated to summarize over dinner, and in my experience these kinds of conversations can get emotional just like talking politics, race, or religion. So, how about instead I send you a couple of links and youtube videos that can provide some insight about how animals raised for meat are treated and the vegetarian perspective, if you want to check it out. That way, you can understand my reasons for my choice and we won't ruin a nice dinner if we don't agree. Then after you've checked out the info, we can have an in-depth conversation about it if you still would like to discuss it further. Or if you don't want to, that's fine too. To me, this is respectful both to me and to the Other-self. It recognizes that each person must make their own decisions on their spiritual options in their own good time. It respects free will without me pretending I don't believe as I do.
I did recently have an odd conversation on this. I called my brother (who is very different than me in personal philosophy) up to wish him Happy Birthday. He was cooking steaks for himself (birthday dish) and was half-drunk (also due to the birthday). Because of this I guess he was a little more aggressive than usual and kept saying stuff to me like "Oooo man I wish you could see this flesh cook. That meat smells so goood. Man, I can cook a steak so good. Sorry, I know you love those cows but I just love to eat them. Mmmm Mmm goooooood!" and on and on. Which was really strange considering we weren't talking about food, and I think he was trying to start an argument. This is what I said to him:
Pab: "Oh well steak is much more compassionate than Chicken. If you have to have a meat speciality, you picked a great one!!"
Brother: "Huh? What are you talking about? How is it more compassionate than chicken?"
Pab: "Tibetans eat alot of Yak, which are similar to cows. That area is so poor for agriculture that their civilization never would have been able to exist there in the past without meat eating. And yet they are strong Buddhists devoted to Loving-Kindness. Well, I heard this from them while visiting."
Brother: "So some Buddhists in Tibet told you eating Yaks was more compassionate than Chickens and that's all the proof you need? Sorry I don't get it"
Pab: "No, they just explained it well. They explained that every single life is precious on this earth. All Beings are of equal value -- The human, the Yak, and the chicken. When a Yak is killed, it provides food for many, many people, whereas a chicken only provides food for one or two. Since every life is of equal value, it is far more compassionate to take just one and feed a village than to take a hundred lives to feed the same village. I just really thought this was profound, and I'm proud of you for specializing in more compassionate meat eating. Just remember to thank that Cow for all the many meals it provided you and all the others with its one life."
Brother: "HAHA! Whatever man. I love you, bro, you're such a damn hippie!"
My point is there is ALWAYS something we can say that is both true to our ideals and yet respectful to the other self. You can't get into a conflict with someone else unless you allow it. If you genuinely love and care for other human beings, you will always find a way to communicate with them without causing anger or hurt. And if you genuinely care about the treatment of animals and aren't just trying to judge others, then you will find a way to speak about this issue in a way that helps raise awareness rather than just turn people off to your cause.
The thing to keep in mind here is that we are all Brothers & Sisters. We are all the Creator. As soon as we lose sight of that fact, the conversation is lost, no matter what words we use.
Love to all
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