Hi Ankh!
That's a good analogy, and I think we could apply it to other situations, too, such as someone knocking on doors with religious pamphlets. I really am conflicted right now on whether PETA's "in your face" images are actually helping or hurting the cause. It may be that it's causing people to shut down and block out the message. I do think people are going to evolve in their own good time, and we shouldn't force anyone to change. I think that they do it because they so acutely feel the suffering of so many animals, and they want to "shock" people out of their "slumber" (as they see it). I am not convinced this does any good at all, though it is something I'm currently meditating on. In any case, at their core they are motivated by concern for other beings, which I can understand and even admire, no matter what I think of their tactics.
However, the billboards are, to me, a very different context than right here. I am curious about what you think in the context of this forum. I've observed alot of posts by vegetarians on this thread that are VERY direct and biased towards the vegetarian view. I've also seen alot of posts by meat eaters that are VERY direct and biased towards a meat-eating view. This is what I would expect in a discussion thread about a topic where people do not agree, and in fact is what I find value in. By participating here, I have had my perspective broadened by people who disagree with me on diet and I am as a result less judgemental and more compassionate. I've also had some of my views strengthened and expanded by people on this thread who DO agree with me.
Basically, I consider this an appropriate place for vegetarians and meat eaters alike to discuss and debate our biased views. I look at it as an "OPT-IN" situation because no'one is forced to read the thread who does not wish to participate, which is different than billboards that you drive past and see without intentionally seeking it out.
What are your views on that? Do you consider posts from vegetarians who strongly, strongly, advocate their position and argue against the meat eating position to be too "in your face"? Or do you see a distinction between a conversation in this discussion forum and, say, the PETA billboards? Honestly, I think this thread may well be one of the very few places where it is perfectly acceptable to strongly convey our own views. I feel it is best done with the understanding that we must respect eachother we are all distorted/biased, and that we may not ultimately agree, but here seems like the right place to do it.
I"d just like to state for the record, since there has been so much tension, that I don't ask that question to trap you, and whatever your answer is, I will respect it. I just honestly have been perplexed why some people seem to resent that those with a different view are arguing their case here. I thought this was the whole point of a specific thread for this contentious, yet important, topic and my confusion is genuine.
I think there is great truth in this as well. We absolutely do not have the full picture nor perfect understanding. We are indeed supposed to be learning love here with the veil in place. This understanding is precisely WHY I don't feel it is appropriate to judge other people for their dietary choices. I don't have the full picture. Of course, neither do THEY, but the fact remains I am behind the veil and a bit of humility is in order. I also think the love I feel for my human Other-selves is more important than any disagreement with them about dietary issues.
For me, though, advocating for animal rights is part of my growth process. I see animals as Other-Selves, and right now there is a vast system of suffering and cruelty in place on earth to raise meat that I don't believe is necessary. I "hear" this dull throbbing scream in the ether from millions of other beings, and it affects me. It could be my own internal distortions, of course, but this is who I am and this is how I feel about it. I don't expect agreement about my views, but I hope that understanding of where I am coming from is at least possible.
In a way, I think that if we condone the control, exploitation, and mistreatment of lower density beings, that we are saying to the universe, metaphysically, that we invite higher density beings to control, exploit, and mistreat *US*. Wouldn't that be fair, after all, and isn't karma a real thing? It's only my opinion and certainly not Eternal Truth, but it seems to me that the extreme level of suffering in the meat animal population is having a negative effect on the consciousness of everyone on the planet, adding human suffering (though of a milder sort) to the general flow of animal suffering. Now that I'm aware of what's going on with meat production on this planet, I find I want to do something constructive about it. The most important action I have taken in this regard is to "opt-out" of the system and no longer add to the demand for it. A secondary thing I can do is to try to raise some awareness about the issue. The challenge is how to do that in a way that honors both my convictions and the free-will and perspectives of human Other-Selves who don't agree.
The only thing I can ask for is patience as we all struggle with this balance.
I can completely respect this approach. We are all unique and have different life circumstances and social pressures. I have no right to judge your method of dealing with the situation and do not cast any blame towards you.
However, since this is a discussion forum, I would like to share how I handle those things.... because that is what I think we are doing here, sharing perspectives and gently debating with love and respect underpinning the conversation.
What I do when I'm going to a function where the majority of food is meat-based is simply eat something before I go. That way, I'm not too hungry and can just nibble on whatever bread or fruit or whatever small thing there is to eat. Another thing I do is carry some 'emergency snacks' with me in case some situation happens unexpectedly. For me, it's more about opting-out of the system as much as I am able and not stimulating demand. I actually think there is value in being an example for other people. I would never push my dietary views on someone else, especially at a family function, but I see just generally being a nice person who happens to not eat meat as HELPING the cause. People notice and it might prompt them to do some research and investigate how they feel about the topic. Maybe it's my own distortions again, I never claimed to be unbiased, but this is a positive way to be, I feel.
Here again, I can completely respect that perspective. This sounds to me like you're thinking of the Other-self here and avoiding them buying more and doing more work. How could I possibly see this as a negative? I don't!
But even in this space, I have a different perspective. I feel that when I ingest meat, I'm polluting my bodily temple. I understand that this is my unique and subjective impression, and I don't claim it to be objective truth, but it is honestly how I feel. So, for me to ingest meat to avoid the other person buying and working more does not honor myself. That slides from STO behavior into martyrdom -- FOR ME. Given these personal factors, I opt instead to eat first and not ask the other person to buy or prepare anything special or extra. I don't belittle your perspective, here I merely share my own.
I completely agree, 100% here, I really do!!! The only thing I"d add to it is that meat is often handled the same way -- where it is shipped thousands of miles/kilometers from where the animals were raised. I am a big supporter of local food, and I think this is yet another area of common ground for vegetarians and meat eaters alike. No matter what we choose to eat, we all share the same environment and it is time we started thinking about these issues you have most eloquently described.
Ankh, I'm glad you brought this point up. I'll be completely honest with you: I don't think even the killing of animals is acceptable TO ME, but I am 100000% percent more concerned about how they are kept PRIOR to slaughter. The majority of the misery happens before the moment of death. This is an area where I think meat eaters and vegetarians can really come together. We vegetarians may not think that eating animals at all is necessary, and meat eaters may never decide that there is anything wrong with eating them. HOWEVER, I think we can all agree that these meat -- and egg -- and dairy -- and honey, etc -- animals need to be kept under better conditions. Supporting local farmers like Austin, if one still eats meat, seems to me the best choice to make. I won't go so far as to say it's the ONLY, or even the BEST choice, in my opinion, but I think it is FAR FAR FAR BETTER than buying meat from factory farms where the animals are kept in appalling conditions. Seriously, there is some common ground here that we can work towards. It's a continuum.
Alas, I have never been to fair Sweden, but I hope to make it there one day. So, I can't comment on the specific term, but I have encountered the term "biological" in other countries in Northern (Well, NW) Europe, such as Holland & Germany. Perhaps that is what you mean? Or maybe "ecological" is another class altogether. I'm really not sure, but both the US "organic" term and European "biological" term mean basically the same thing. It is a statement that no chemicals, pesticides, antibiotics and growth hormones were used during the production of that food item (Be it meat or vegetables). Unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily tell you anything about how the animals were kept. In my experience in investigating this, you find a mix. Some producers do treat their animals with great care and respect under the "biological/organic" label, but sadly many others treat them the same as any other factory farm -- which is living hell -- they just don't use the antibiotics and chemicals. This is only marginally better. So, if you are seeking more ethical sources for your meat, I would just advocate investigating the companies you buy from. Better yet, buy local and visit the farm so you can see exactly how the animals are raised. Now, "ecological" may actually come with humane treatment, I don't really know. If it does, then that label should be far more reliable for you. Unfortunately I'm just not that familiar with how things work in Sweden, so don't know the nuances of the term in your local context.
Sister, I think I share your struggle with this. If there is one thing that pushes my buttons, it's people forcing their views on another. We had a new member who in the past spent alot of time pressing his views on others in a hundred different threads, and I really struggled with acceptance there. I had to pray and meditate on him daily for weeks before I finally got some balance and clarity, and love returned.
I'm really working on this right now, so maybe I can share some insight that will help you with your own journey of acceptance. When it comes to these PETA billboards and "in your face" vegetarian approaches, what's underpinning that attitude is concern for the animals. Maybe it's unbalanced, off-center and subjective, but it feels so acute to them. They just hear this ethereal screaming from the abuse of so many, many beings that sometimes they go completely crazy trying to do something about it. This empathy is real, almost physical, and it's hard to ignore. Years ago, I said some things to meat eaters that were really unfair and unkind. I literally felt like meat consumers were supporting the systematic exploitation, torture and murder of my little brothers and sisters. It's not fair our reasonable -- but sometimes emotional reactions aren't logical. It took some growing up and spiritual evolution for me to find a balanced view and more fully integrate compassion for human Other-selves as well as animal Other-selves. I doesn't justify my or their behavior, but may help you to forgive it. I hope so anyway.
Love to all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cpz4qXF3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCFrf2TZpVE
Love to all
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: It is the "in your face" technique that I find difficult to accept. The analogy that came into my mind is someone walking up to a young fruit tree and start shaking it, yelling: "C'mon, tree! Give me those apples" when it's not yet ready to bear fruits. It is disrespectful and infringing.
So what I am trying to say is that, coming up to someone with "in your face" technique about issues that one has a strong conviction about is disrespectful and infringing. And I need to learn that even these people, as much as I am myself, do not have a clear picture and it's ok too. I guess that I just personally need to learn to accept that when I see it, and that I currently have difficulties with that.
That's a good analogy, and I think we could apply it to other situations, too, such as someone knocking on doors with religious pamphlets. I really am conflicted right now on whether PETA's "in your face" images are actually helping or hurting the cause. It may be that it's causing people to shut down and block out the message. I do think people are going to evolve in their own good time, and we shouldn't force anyone to change. I think that they do it because they so acutely feel the suffering of so many animals, and they want to "shock" people out of their "slumber" (as they see it). I am not convinced this does any good at all, though it is something I'm currently meditating on. In any case, at their core they are motivated by concern for other beings, which I can understand and even admire, no matter what I think of their tactics.
However, the billboards are, to me, a very different context than right here. I am curious about what you think in the context of this forum. I've observed alot of posts by vegetarians on this thread that are VERY direct and biased towards the vegetarian view. I've also seen alot of posts by meat eaters that are VERY direct and biased towards a meat-eating view. This is what I would expect in a discussion thread about a topic where people do not agree, and in fact is what I find value in. By participating here, I have had my perspective broadened by people who disagree with me on diet and I am as a result less judgemental and more compassionate. I've also had some of my views strengthened and expanded by people on this thread who DO agree with me.
Basically, I consider this an appropriate place for vegetarians and meat eaters alike to discuss and debate our biased views. I look at it as an "OPT-IN" situation because no'one is forced to read the thread who does not wish to participate, which is different than billboards that you drive past and see without intentionally seeking it out.
What are your views on that? Do you consider posts from vegetarians who strongly, strongly, advocate their position and argue against the meat eating position to be too "in your face"? Or do you see a distinction between a conversation in this discussion forum and, say, the PETA billboards? Honestly, I think this thread may well be one of the very few places where it is perfectly acceptable to strongly convey our own views. I feel it is best done with the understanding that we must respect eachother we are all distorted/biased, and that we may not ultimately agree, but here seems like the right place to do it.
I"d just like to state for the record, since there has been so much tension, that I don't ask that question to trap you, and whatever your answer is, I will respect it. I just honestly have been perplexed why some people seem to resent that those with a different view are arguing their case here. I thought this was the whole point of a specific thread for this contentious, yet important, topic and my confusion is genuine.
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: 3DMonkey raised a good point, which translated into my own understanding, was that strong conviction makes one to go "blind", not seeing the whole picture. Think about how each mind/body/spirit complex consists of mind complexes, body complexes, and spirit complex, which are *veiled*, i.e. not seen to the self (and even less to another third density self). Add to that the societal/cultural mind complexes, and what not more. So the life that each intelligence is living, is indeed so complex that not even the self living that life is clear about what is what. There is great confusion! So with all these things that are not seen to us, we are supposed to learn love. That's simply it.
I think there is great truth in this as well. We absolutely do not have the full picture nor perfect understanding. We are indeed supposed to be learning love here with the veil in place. This understanding is precisely WHY I don't feel it is appropriate to judge other people for their dietary choices. I don't have the full picture. Of course, neither do THEY, but the fact remains I am behind the veil and a bit of humility is in order. I also think the love I feel for my human Other-selves is more important than any disagreement with them about dietary issues.
For me, though, advocating for animal rights is part of my growth process. I see animals as Other-Selves, and right now there is a vast system of suffering and cruelty in place on earth to raise meat that I don't believe is necessary. I "hear" this dull throbbing scream in the ether from millions of other beings, and it affects me. It could be my own internal distortions, of course, but this is who I am and this is how I feel about it. I don't expect agreement about my views, but I hope that understanding of where I am coming from is at least possible.
In a way, I think that if we condone the control, exploitation, and mistreatment of lower density beings, that we are saying to the universe, metaphysically, that we invite higher density beings to control, exploit, and mistreat *US*. Wouldn't that be fair, after all, and isn't karma a real thing? It's only my opinion and certainly not Eternal Truth, but it seems to me that the extreme level of suffering in the meat animal population is having a negative effect on the consciousness of everyone on the planet, adding human suffering (though of a milder sort) to the general flow of animal suffering. Now that I'm aware of what's going on with meat production on this planet, I find I want to do something constructive about it. The most important action I have taken in this regard is to "opt-out" of the system and no longer add to the demand for it. A secondary thing I can do is to try to raise some awareness about the issue. The challenge is how to do that in a way that honors both my convictions and the free-will and perspectives of human Other-Selves who don't agree.
The only thing I can ask for is patience as we all struggle with this balance.
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: You raised another point which I found interesting when you mentioned "Grandma's cooking", and that is when I go to visit someone for dinner, for instance family, relatives or friends who are not vegetarian. When there is no other alternatives than the meat at that dinner party, and people knowing that you are vegetarian, they ask you oftentimes what you would like to eat. Since I've been vegetarian for many years, that has happened to me in the past, for many years. I re-evaluate these experiences today, and think that when/if I become vegetarian again, I will not announce it to anyone. When going to these parties in the future, I will eat what they have to offer, but perhaps will eat less of the meat offered. I don't want it to become a thing of giving my near and dear problems, i.e. more work. It doesn't have to be complicated, as the life in third density already is. And it doesn't have to become "all or nothing" thing for me personally either.
I can completely respect this approach. We are all unique and have different life circumstances and social pressures. I have no right to judge your method of dealing with the situation and do not cast any blame towards you.
However, since this is a discussion forum, I would like to share how I handle those things.... because that is what I think we are doing here, sharing perspectives and gently debating with love and respect underpinning the conversation.
What I do when I'm going to a function where the majority of food is meat-based is simply eat something before I go. That way, I'm not too hungry and can just nibble on whatever bread or fruit or whatever small thing there is to eat. Another thing I do is carry some 'emergency snacks' with me in case some situation happens unexpectedly. For me, it's more about opting-out of the system as much as I am able and not stimulating demand. I actually think there is value in being an example for other people. I would never push my dietary views on someone else, especially at a family function, but I see just generally being a nice person who happens to not eat meat as HELPING the cause. People notice and it might prompt them to do some research and investigate how they feel about the topic. Maybe it's my own distortions again, I never claimed to be unbiased, but this is a positive way to be, I feel.
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: Another thing is the "waste" that I find of importance when considering these issues. Since the meat is already prepared for many to eat, I'd rather take a little taste of this dish, instead of forcing others to buy (=adds to consuming) and prepare (adds to more work for another self) in order for me to eat that other dish.
Here again, I can completely respect that perspective. This sounds to me like you're thinking of the Other-self here and avoiding them buying more and doing more work. How could I possibly see this as a negative? I don't!
But even in this space, I have a different perspective. I feel that when I ingest meat, I'm polluting my bodily temple. I understand that this is my unique and subjective impression, and I don't claim it to be objective truth, but it is honestly how I feel. So, for me to ingest meat to avoid the other person buying and working more does not honor myself. That slides from STO behavior into martyrdom -- FOR ME. Given these personal factors, I opt instead to eat first and not ask the other person to buy or prepare anything special or extra. I don't belittle your perspective, here I merely share my own.
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: That makes my mind to slide into another issue, which is the poisining and polluting of our environment. All that is done to the soil and the air when we grow our grains, fruits, vegetables etc. Where does this product come from? I've read about great amounts of grain and other products that are wasted and thrown away in some countries. Many countries are completely inconsiderate about how they grow their grains, vegetables and fruits in regards to the environment. Also, the transportations of these products that are in our grocery stores is something that is of importance for me personally. The longer this product has to travel to reach my local grocery story, the more it adds to the pollution of this already burdened planet.
I completely agree, 100% here, I really do!!! The only thing I"d add to it is that meat is often handled the same way -- where it is shipped thousands of miles/kilometers from where the animals were raised. I am a big supporter of local food, and I think this is yet another area of common ground for vegetarians and meat eaters alike. No matter what we choose to eat, we all share the same environment and it is time we started thinking about these issues you have most eloquently described.
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: Another issue is, while the slaughter of the animals is a topic by itself, which I will not go into, it is how these animals are kept that is an issue for me. Whether cows and chickens are kept to be slaughtered or for their milk and eggs, it is how they are kept that is important for me personally.
Ankh, I'm glad you brought this point up. I'll be completely honest with you: I don't think even the killing of animals is acceptable TO ME, but I am 100000% percent more concerned about how they are kept PRIOR to slaughter. The majority of the misery happens before the moment of death. This is an area where I think meat eaters and vegetarians can really come together. We vegetarians may not think that eating animals at all is necessary, and meat eaters may never decide that there is anything wrong with eating them. HOWEVER, I think we can all agree that these meat -- and egg -- and dairy -- and honey, etc -- animals need to be kept under better conditions. Supporting local farmers like Austin, if one still eats meat, seems to me the best choice to make. I won't go so far as to say it's the ONLY, or even the BEST choice, in my opinion, but I think it is FAR FAR FAR BETTER than buying meat from factory farms where the animals are kept in appalling conditions. Seriously, there is some common ground here that we can work towards. It's a continuum.
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: In Sweden, we have something that is called "ecological", and I think that in US it is called "organic", but I am not sure. What an ecological product means is that this product is made with an outmost consideration for the environment and the animal producing it. For me it is of no difference whether one eats the chicken or it's egg, if that chicken is held in a minimal cage causing that animal great suffering and pain, and the same goes with cows and all other animals. I even think that sometimes it is better that this animal is slaughtered perhaps, instead of kept alive it's whole life in these conditions for what it is producing, like eggs and milk.
Alas, I have never been to fair Sweden, but I hope to make it there one day. So, I can't comment on the specific term, but I have encountered the term "biological" in other countries in Northern (Well, NW) Europe, such as Holland & Germany. Perhaps that is what you mean? Or maybe "ecological" is another class altogether. I'm really not sure, but both the US "organic" term and European "biological" term mean basically the same thing. It is a statement that no chemicals, pesticides, antibiotics and growth hormones were used during the production of that food item (Be it meat or vegetables). Unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily tell you anything about how the animals were kept. In my experience in investigating this, you find a mix. Some producers do treat their animals with great care and respect under the "biological/organic" label, but sadly many others treat them the same as any other factory farm -- which is living hell -- they just don't use the antibiotics and chemicals. This is only marginally better. So, if you are seeking more ethical sources for your meat, I would just advocate investigating the companies you buy from. Better yet, buy local and visit the farm so you can see exactly how the animals are raised. Now, "ecological" may actually come with humane treatment, I don't really know. If it does, then that label should be far more reliable for you. Unfortunately I'm just not that familiar with how things work in Sweden, so don't know the nuances of the term in your local context.
(04-07-2012, 06:00 AM)Ankh Wrote: All these things are of personal consideration to me, but should I load others, when they are not interested, with all that, and especially using "in your face" technique? I do what I can in choices like foodstuff I buy, or by supporting organisations involved in these issues, such as Greenpeace, WWF etc. And someone else does more than that. I guess that I just need to find acceptance even for those using "in your face" approach, whether this approach regard food choices, spiritual growth or something else.
Sister, I think I share your struggle with this. If there is one thing that pushes my buttons, it's people forcing their views on another. We had a new member who in the past spent alot of time pressing his views on others in a hundred different threads, and I really struggled with acceptance there. I had to pray and meditate on him daily for weeks before I finally got some balance and clarity, and love returned.
I'm really working on this right now, so maybe I can share some insight that will help you with your own journey of acceptance. When it comes to these PETA billboards and "in your face" vegetarian approaches, what's underpinning that attitude is concern for the animals. Maybe it's unbalanced, off-center and subjective, but it feels so acute to them. They just hear this ethereal screaming from the abuse of so many, many beings that sometimes they go completely crazy trying to do something about it. This empathy is real, almost physical, and it's hard to ignore. Years ago, I said some things to meat eaters that were really unfair and unkind. I literally felt like meat consumers were supporting the systematic exploitation, torture and murder of my little brothers and sisters. It's not fair our reasonable -- but sometimes emotional reactions aren't logical. It took some growing up and spiritual evolution for me to find a balanced view and more fully integrate compassion for human Other-selves as well as animal Other-selves. I doesn't justify my or their behavior, but may help you to forgive it. I hope so anyway.
Love to all
(04-07-2012, 12:34 PM)norral Wrote: yossarian
i want to apologize for freaking out before.
norral
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cpz4qXF3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCFrf2TZpVE
Love to all
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