In regards to eating meat

[Pablísimo]

However, he clearly feels some hurt and insult, and we bear some responsibility for that as well as him.

Is the reverse also true?

I felt hurt and insult too. I feel unaccepted for who I am, and I feel judged for having strong convictions.

Yes, it is absolutely also true. Though the last thing I want to do is point fingers at ANYBODY, the simple truth remains that you also have been treated very unkindly at times in this painful conversation. In fact, I would go so far as to say you have received the most amount of negative energy of any single person in all of this and it has broken my heart to watch.

Part of the reason is that you've been advocating your view for so long, sometimes all alone, so you've been the only target, but it doesn't mean it is fair. You have been mistreated, misjudged, and publicly lynched, and I think Monkey and the others remember those moments when they were less than kind as well. I have been amazed at the level of restraint that you've shown in the face of very unkind words, to be frank.

But I am always an advocate for taking responsibility for our part of any conflict we find ourselves in rather than pointing the blame. I think, for example, it would be healthy for both you and Monkey to take responsibility for your own weak moments and forgive the other for theirs, because it's happened in both directions.

Unfortunately, because you have been so mistreated, I've noticed that your posts here don't always reflect your usual centeredness. I see that it springs from a well of hurt feelings and judgement that has been directed at you -- no, heaped upon you -- as well. I think everyone's feelings are valid, and you are no exception. Your hurt and pain is real and I would love to see the validity of your feelings acknowledged by those you've had conflicts with as well. This shouldn't be "pile up on Monica" time, just because you've had some weak, exhausted, moments.. Your overall conduct has been very, very kind, which is why those few and far between weak moments pain me, because they distort the overall picture.

Nobody has to agree on meat eating to admit that, intentionally or unintentionally, we've hurt eachother and should try to make peace. The peace is more important than the conversation at this moment, but I believe that once peace reigns again the conversation will resume, invigorated. Acknowledging the Other-Self and the validity of their feelings is a healing, healthy thing to do for us all. It's how Creators roll

When Monkey commented that he didn't feel loved, or even allowed to be loved, for his views, it really shocked me. When I saw that level of hurt from an Other-Self, my immediate reaction was to send him some love and clarify to him that he was loved. I didn't care how much of a role he or you or anybody played in it, I just sensed an Other-Self suffering and wanted to reach out.

As a result, I probably wasn't as balanced and fair in that post as I should have been. The simple truth is that everyone involved in these conflicts needs to take some responsibility, and I publicly apologize if my words seemed to single you out.

Now, I sense an equal level of hurt from you. Just like I wanted to acknkowledge the validity of 3dm's and others' feelings, I'd like to acknowledge yours as well. I sincerely, sincerely hope I am not the only one who is reaching out to you now. Achieving peace and mutual healing is not something I can achieve without some support. I am so sorry for all the negativity and accusations hurled at you. In this particular case, I haven't been doing the majority of it, but even I just made a post that seemed accusatory. It's just so easy to do in this environment, and I apologize to you, both for what I've said and what others have said that hurt you. Your feelings are valid, and you are such a wonderful human being I want to recognize that fact.

@Everyone
Let's put down the 'Like' button, forget what side we're on and cross this invisible aisle. Better yet, let's tear down that invisible aisle and embrace across the line that once separated us.

We ALL bear some collective responsibility for the tone and content of this thread. This mess isn't all Monica's fault and it's not fair to blame her. I hope my post didn't seem to be saying that.

But I do hope that we can put aside the need to define exactly who did what to whom and just forgive eachother.

I'm asking you to help me see the Creator in everyone who has ever posted in this thread.

Done! You asked me this. Will the others be asked this as well?

Yes -- EVERYONE PLEASE HELP ME. I need assistance to remember to see the Creator in everyone who participates here. There are going to be comments from people I disagree with, there are going to be hurt feelings, there will be tension... and in these moments most especially, we will need good examples of mutual respect of and love through the disagreement. We will all need reminders to help see the Creator in everyone, and this doesn't just go for Monica. We all have to work together to help eachother with this.

My appeal is to everyone -- please help me -- and all of us - to remember to see the Creator in everyone.

This thread is challenging and I think it will take more compassion and kindness than we all normally display to continue discussing this in a healthy and constructive way.

I am saddened that who I am - a person with convictions - has somehow caused others to feel uncomfortable. I am sorry for the times when I felt exhausted from staying in this intense thread for 3 years, sometimes with little or no support from other vegetarians, and allowed my exhaustion to cloud my judgment. I am also sorry for the times when I felt frustrated at being repeatedly misunderstood and misrepresented, and allowed my frustration to affect the tone of my words. I am also sorry for allowing my sense of urgency about helping save our younger brethren from daily torture, to affect my interactions with my other brethren, who are unconsciously contributing to that torture. I am sorry for being confused as to why they have reacted with such resistance to something that seems very obvious to me and the other vegetarians. I am also sorry for allowing myself to feel hurt, judged, ridiculed, and ganged up on. I am sorry for then allowing that hurt to develop into judgment of others; I didn't feel judgment towards them for eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards them for their non-acceptance of my convictions. I am sorry for not accepting non-acceptance.

I am sorry for all these things.

I'm not sorry for being who I am. I'm not sorry for having strong convictions and being passionate about them. I'm sorry for any words spoken unkindly, but I'm not sorry that my words, when spoken kindly, still caused feelings of guilt to arise in some people, because I am not responsible for that. I'm not sorry for passionately sharing my views on this topic, in a thread devoted to this topic.

I accept those who eat meat on a daily basis. I am saddened that, apparently, many meat-eaters in this community are unable to accept me and the other vegetarians. They are unable to accept that we have strong convictions. With the exception of only a couple of them, none were able to say that this discussion had fostered greater understanding and compassion for vegetarians, despite the vegetarians sharing their increased compassion and understanding for them. This has bothered me. I didn't feel judgment towards them eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards their unwillingness or inability to accept the vegetarians. That is still judgment, nonetheless. For this, I am sorry.

Monica, that is more than I expected of you or had any right to ask for, after all you've done. All I really meant was try to show even greater kindness than you already do when responding in this thread, but this is something much more. You just bared your soul for us, publicly. You distilled down your inner conflict and feelings so very clearly. It shows reflection, humility, and great love for other-selves that you are still, even now, trying to explain yourself and have a balanced view about a topic that is very emotive for you, as it is for me.

Did anyone else just notice Monica pouring out her heart and soul here? She's just as wounded by the non-acceptance of her views and lack of understanding as the others. I sincerely hope that my Brothers & Sisters of Bring4th will respond to this outpouring with an equal measure of compassion.

The constant implication on this thread is that you're some kind of fanatic and zealot. Calling you an "extremist" is hurtful, in my opinion. Though I understand why some are using the term -- and in fact why they see it as appropriate usage -- , subjectively, I find it judgemental, divisive and hurtful. I wish we could leave it out of the conversation. Passionate is fair, but extremist carries with it some heavy judgement.

You also race a question that I have been wondering in my own mind:

Can we be accepted even though we believe vegetarianism is a better path? Can we be accepted without letting go of that conviction, as long as it is in an attitude of non-judgement and respect for those who do not agree?

Can you deal with the fact I think The Doors are the best rock band? Or that Ashana is the queen of New Age music? Or that Reiki is helpful? That Astrology is valid? Or that meditating at least twice a week is important? Honestly, I have all these strong opinions, why should vegetarianism be any different?

Are we allowed to believe it's a better path and still find community acceptance?

I have a confession to make here. I have been struggling within for the last 6 months to ask a question in the homecoming thread about the meals. I find myself wanting to go, but I'm a little concerned that I might be expected to eat the home cooked meal that contains meat or else cause some hurt or insult if I don't eat. I'm curious if the restaurants nearby have a vegetarian option. I shouldn't have that level of anxiety about simply asking about the food -- because it's not as if I object to people eating meat at Homecoming, which I don't. But I don't feel like the vegetarian perspective is respected enough, even in this community, to feel safe to ask the question outside of this thread.

Maybe this is why I find this thread to be so valuable. Everywhere we go there is judgement and non-acceptance directed at us, so it's nice to have a place where it's OK to advocate our position and discuss it with intelligent, thoughtful, and spiritual people.

This is just an echo of the non-acceptance that Monica seems to feel. I myself feel judged for my opinion and feel, rightly or wrongly, that were I to ask a question about the food in that other thread, that it would anger many people.

I see the Creator in all our brothers and sisters, including our younger brothers and sisters - the animals - and including those who kill our younger brothers and sisters, or who allow someone else to kill them so they can eat them. I don't like this, but I do see the Creator in them, nonetheless. I am sorry for not always expressing this. I do see the Creator in all of them, regardless of what they do, and regardless of whether they see the Creator in the younger brothers and sisters who end up on their dining room table.

Thank you for making this clear, sister. I think we need to try even harder than usual to keep this in the forefront of our minds at all times -- That the Creator is present in all Other-Selves. Even though it's hard, and we get tired, this topic evokes such passion and emotion in people, that we're going to have to keep shining the Light of the Creator so brightly that it even illumines this murky topic.

I think overall you do a great job at that, but you can do better. I can do better. Monkey and Shemaya and Tenet and Pickle can do better. We are all capable of remembering our Oneness in the midst of this discussion. Thank you, thank you for doing your part!

@Everyone
We are One. We are all Brothers & Sisters

Yes, and that includes the cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys and deer. They are our brothers and sisters too. They're just younger.

I completely agree, of course. The challenge for us is to remember to honor both our animal other-selves without alienating our human-other selves.

We may not always succeed in this, but our intentions are good and we're making the effort.

@Everyone, I don't know what your perceptions are of me or my recent posts. I am sure I have made some mistakes, but I hope you see my intentions. I want to establish the right of all of us to have our own subjective opinions that are valid. I want to acknowledge that t here is substance to the hurt feelings on both sides and make efforts to reach out and help the group healing. I want us to discuss this topic, if we wish, but in a constructive and compassionate way. I sincerely want to start discussing the pros and cons of meat eating in the spiritual context again, but not see it devolve into a steaming pile of hurt feelings.


In closing...
My subjective opinion is that Vegetarians have every right to be passionate!!! And everyone else has every right to passionately disagree!!! Agreement is not necessary for acceptance of eachother.

But whatever your convictions, I love you, accept you, and respect you. That is all I really have to say.

Love to all