In regards to eating meat

[Tenet Nosce]

The first is the notion that a person can speak/feel on behalf of another. I have a very strong reaction toward claims that somebody knows how the animals feel, or how Gaia feels, or how another member feels, or how *I* feel. This seems to me as setting oneself up as an authority over others and *to me* feels like a boundary violation. In my opinion, one should only speak for themselves unless they have been specifically appointed as a representative for others.

Hmm, I find that I agree with you for the most part on this, especially amongst humans, but one piece perplexes me. When I say that I find animals suffering in factory farms, it's because of the squalid conditions, the moans and cries, and the signs of disease that I base this upon. It seems reasonable, even if it is subjective, for me to conclude that these animals are suffering. I would recognize it if a person speaking Chinese was suffering, even if I didn't understand the words.

Thanks for your response! Allow me to clarify:

I agree that these particular animals in these factory farms are suffering. When I have watched video footage of what goes on inside factory farms, is seems quite undeniable to me that the animals there are greatly suffering, and needlessly at that.

What I am referring to is commentary about how "The Animals" as a group feel about this suffering. My position is agnostic on that. I don't know how "The Animals" feel about it, and I don't buy into the idea that anybody else knows either. There is all manner of suffering which goes on which is quite incomprehensible to me.

What I observe is that the vast majority of animals incarnated on this planet are not living in factory farms. Therefore, perhaps there is some higher purpose to this, or some reasoning that is incomprehensible to my 3D mind. I could conjecture several reasons why this might be, but I feel that would most likely not be of benefit at this point in the conversation.

The second thing is that I don't quite grasp the link between observing the horrors of factory farming and the conclusion that any eating of animals, whatsoever, is "wrong". What about humanely-raised animals? What about insects? What about worms? What about shrimp?

I think there is a huge gap in logic there, and my experience is that whenever this gap is pointed out, the response tends to be more emotional dramatism. I view this as a distraction technique.

In my experience, I find that many vegans insist on making the discussion about eating "The Animals", when in actuality it really isn't about "The Animals" but only about certain animals, raised in certain conditions, and the ones that appear most closely related to humans at that. I find this to be disingenuous.

Or did you mean more the other people and Gai on this? I feel like you make a good point here overall, I just think it's reasonable to conclude that an animal is suffering based on what our five senses can tell us.

Yes, I think it is reasonable to conclude that an animal is suffering based on what we can observe. I don't think it is reasonable to make generalizations to all animals based on the observations of a few. If I stick my finger into a termite nest, and eat the termites, I don't think those termites have suffered all that much. And as far as I am aware, not a single vegan has risen up in defense of the termites, or any other insect used as food.

But do you dispute the basic premise that I am making that these animals suffer because we don't know with 100% certainty that is what they're experiencing?

I don't dispute your basic premise. I am disputing the generalizations that are made from this basic premise.

Thus... "Eating factory-farmed animals who have needlessly suffered is wrong." is a statement I can live with, and even agree with.

"Eating animals is wrong." is a statement I heartily disagree with.