In regards to eating meat

[Pablísimo]

Thanks for your response! Allow me to clarify:

I agree that these particular animals in these factory farms are suffering. When I have watched video footage of what goes on inside factory farms, is seems quite undeniable to me that the animals there are greatly suffering, and needlessly at that.

And thank YOU for your response as well! I also appreciate your clarification. I felt like you made a pretty darn good point, but I was struggling with the idea that factory farm animals might not be suffering just because I can't ask them.

I see now what you mean, and I wholeheartedly appreciate you making it clear that you see them suffering in those videos as well. This makes it easier for me to understand your wider point and not get sidetracked, so thanks!

What I am referring to is commentary about how "The Animals" as a group feel about this suffering. My position is agnostic on that. I don't know how "The Animals" feel about it, and I don't buy into the idea that anybody else knows either. There is all manner of suffering which goes on which is quite incomprehensible to me.

Well, I think this area is alot more ambiguous. I tend to agree with you here that, objectively at least, no'one really does know what "The Animals" as a collective feel about it, if indeed there even is such a thing as such a general collective of "The Animals" as a unit, and even then it's debatable what their opinion might be about the suffering. We can make educated guesses, and even extrapolate about how it might feel based on how we as a human collective might feel about those humans who suffer needlessly. We can use our discernment and empathy, but ultimately I don't think that we really can know, and I'm dubious about any claims that anyone really can with 100% certainty.

To me though, that question is more of a philosophical curiosity. I see a simple, immediate need for change that can be addressed without a definitive answer to the question of how the Animals, as a group, might feel about the suffering and cruelty in factory farms. I know how I feel about it, and this is enough for me to make choices about my dietary lifestyle that are congruent with my own distortions.

What I observe is that the vast majority of animals incarnated on this planet are not living in factory farms. Therefore, perhaps there is some higher purpose to this, or some reasoning that is incomprehensible to my 3D mind. I could conjecture several reasons why this might be, but I feel that would most likely not be of benefit at this point in the conversation.

Your observation is undeniably correct: The vast majority of animals incarnated on this planet are NOT living on factory farms. However, I would say that clear majorities of the animals that are used for meat on this planet DO spend their short lives on factory farms, thus I see the greatest need to speak out in this particular area. For me, there is the least ambiguity here. Given how many animals are raised and killed in appalling conditions for the sustenance of my own species, this problem is vast in scale.

I would also like to say that I agree with you, in principle, that there might be some reasoning or higher purpose to this situation that is incomprehensible to my 3D mind. That is why I try to have self-respect, but an underpinning of humility in all of my views. Behind the veil, we just don't have all the information, and it behooves us to cut eachother some slack and not judge other people for their perceptions and choices. I could be totally wrong...as could everyone else. Honestly, who knows for sure?

However, to me, I feel that even though there may be a higher purpose to it all -- and likely probably is -- that I have been presented with an ethical choice almost unique to 3D beings on this planet. I have a choice to be a predator or not. I have a choice to object to the mistreatment of other beings. I see a higher purpose to many forms of human suffering, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to work for a better world. So many are starving in Africa -- just like when Don asked the question, the appropriate response is to feed the body, even though that starvation is probably good for their soul evolution.

The second thing is that I don't quite grasp the link between observing the horrors of factory farming and the conclusion that any eating of animals, whatsoever, is "wrong". What about humanely-raised animals? What about insects? What about worms? What about shrimp?

I think there is a huge gap in logic there, and my experience is that whenever this gap is pointed out, the response tends to be more emotional dramatism. I view this as a distraction technique.

Well, hopefully I won't add to that here, because I think it's a fair question.

For me, the logic is not the same. I find the most acute problem to currently be the vast numbers of suffering beings that are stuck in factory farms. I see the immense misery and suffering present in their lives, long before the moment of slaughter, as the most profound problem in this space.

That said, it's not the only concern for me. It is the PRIMARY concern, and one I'm pleased to see there is a lot of common ground with many meat eaters. This is something I think we can build upon because when discussed rationally, I think most people tend to disagree with factory farming practices, regardless of what they think about the general appropriateness of meat eating.

It's good to work from common ground, under something that is unifying rather than focus on the areas where we disagree, in my view.

But I have to be honest with you. Though the suffering in factory farms is my biggest concern, a secondary issue, for me, is that of the life force itself. I feel like when we kill another being, even if we did not torture it in life, that we are still acting as predators and preying upon an essentially innocent other-self. We are stealing that life force in what is a very STS manner, in my totally biased and subjective view. Sure, we could debate and discuss plants again, but animals and even insects can communicate to me that they don't want to be eaten very easily. I find it a violation of their right to exist and develop were I to kill them when I have a choice. Unlike an animal that is hardwired for one particular diet, human beings can subsist quite healthily on vegetables or meat. I am given the choice if I want to kill other animals for my food or not, that's all.

Here though, I feel it is important to mention context. There is always a context, and Ra mentioned to us of the inherent problems with the "codification of response" that does not recognize the "uniqueness of each and every moment." My options are not the same as everyone else's. Meat eating or not is a complex decision involving practical, economic, and spiritual considerations, among others. In my situation, when I DO have plentiful vegetarian food available, I have no reason to kill other beings intentionally for my sustenance. In another point in time, in another place, and under different circumstances I may not feel the same way. And even now, I feel qualified only to make that decision for myself, and not judge others who perceive reality differently than me and make different choices.

In my experience, I find that many vegans insist on making the discussion about eating "The Animals", when in actuality it really isn't about "The Animals" but only about certain animals, raised in certain conditions, and the ones that appear most closely related to humans at that. I find this to be disingenuous.

Well that's a reasonable distinction for you to make. It's not true that ALL animals are living in hell on earth by any means. Some suffer worse than others. All I can say is that, for me, I don't have any reason to eat any animals, even insects. What options make sense for others, is up to them, but for me I find no compelling reason whatsoever to kill animals or insects for my food, not that I judge those who do.

I'd like to mention, though, that this discussion of basically general concepts has been taken very personally at times. I took the point being made that "It's About the Animals!" to have been brought up in CONTRAST to it being about "A particular person's dietary choice". IE, it's not about how we feel about YOU, or anyone else, so much as how we feel about dietary choice in a spiritual context, in general. There is a very important distinction... I think we cross a line when we critique someone else personally instead of comment on general views.

I don't want to speak for anyone else or put words in their mouth, but I honestly took the "It's about the animals" comment in this context rather than viewed it as a hypocritical statement about some vs all animals.

Yes, I think it is reasonable to conclude that an animal is suffering based on what we can observe. I don't think it is reasonable to make generalizations to all animals based on the observations of a few. If I stick my finger into a termite nest, and eat the termites, I don't think those termites have suffered all that much. And as far as I am aware, not a single vegan has risen up in defense of the termites, or any other insect used as food.

Here again, I find myself agreeing with you. I don't think it's reasonable either to make generalizations to all animals based on the observations of a few. Termites in that situation are clearly not suffering to the same degree as a factory-farmed cow.

To me, though, it makes sense to put some emphasis on where the majority of the suffering is occurring -- which is the factory farms all over this earth. Sure, I think other animals, including insects, should be left to live their lives whenever possible, but I don't see the termite treatment problem to be on the same scale, that's all.

I'm curious to know... is anybody here genuinely offended and/or horrified by the animal killing/eating in this video clip?

I found it slightly painful to watch, but nowhere near to the same degree as a slaughterhouse video. In the context of a kid making a Youtube video who has no reason at present to eat a bunch of termites for sustenance, it seems to me to be a needless violation of their sovereignty and incarnations. I found it distasteful and inconsiderate that he just devoured them when there was no real need, though it was so quick I doubt they suffered much. And that relative lack of suffering does count for something, in my book.

However, if this kid was in the wilderness and couldn't find any available vegetarian food, how could I blame him for doing what he has to do to survive? I think the context is the key, for me at least. When there is an available choice that avoids killing and respects life as much as possible, that's the one I'm going to take every time. The trouble with 3D is, that choice is not always available in all circumstances. So, we do the best we can.

I don't dispute your basic premise. I am disputing the generalizations that are made from this basic premise.

Thus... "Eating factory-farmed animals who have needlessly suffered is wrong." is a statement I can live with, and even agree with.

Thank you for this clarification, Tenet. Honestly, I find these kinds of statements from someone who eats meat to be very encouraging. It sounds like you can at least SEE what we see, even if your interpretations of what to do about it, if anything, are different.

"Eating animals is wrong." is a statement I heartily disagree with.

Well, for what it's worth I'm not sure I agree with that statement either. There are circumstances, such as, well, the past for one, Tibetans, Eskimos, Native Americans, etc, where it wouldn't be fair to say "Eating animals is wrong." I personally try to avoid blanket statements that don't take into account context and the uniqueness of each person and moment.

There is alot more room for debate here when we shift away from factory farming and into other areas such as hunting, fishing, and insects. It's perfectly fine to explore them, too, of course, but they are different.

I personally feel the killing of any animals for food is wrong for me, right now, in the modern era, with my unique circumstances and choices. I find it incongruent with my dedication to the STO path, and I'm grateful to the universe for blessing me with an incarnation where I can eat the way that I do.

I respect that not everyone has the same circumstances as me and I'm just not interested in judging them for doing the best they can in this insane and confusing 3D world. I am making the best decisions I can with the available info I have behind the veil. If I'm wrong, then so be it, but I'm doing the best I can. My strong conviction that everyone else is doing the best they can, too, is a major part of why I do not judge others for their decisions.

For me, I choose not to eat any animals. Not even termites. But if we can come together and agree that something should be done about the factory farming situation, then I consider that an important area of collaboration and common ground.

Instead of arguing the more ambiguous points, I'd rather work together for things we all agree on.

Love to all