In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

Is there any chance you would ever see eating meat as compassionate?

How animals are raised, yes. But eating meat itself, a compassionate act? No. Acceptable, yes, in cases where it truly is necessary. But compassionate? No, that's just not a word I would use.

I can see how, if one must kill another being, there is a more compassionate way of doing that. That is where I would classify 'humanely' raising animals, as you and Austin apparently do. It is more humane to let the animals have a good life before killing them, than to confine them in miserable, horrible conditions as the factory farms do.

So in that respect, I see 'humanely' raised animals as being far, far more compassionate than factory farming, no doubt about it. But it's relative.

I don't see eating meat in itself as being compassionate, because how could killing another being be a compassionate act, when it wasn't necessary to kill it to begin with?

(I could use an analogy here to better make my point, but I don't dare do that.)

Because I see it as part of a compassionate life.

Well, to me the term compassionate means having some feelings of empathy towards another being. So in this case, to whom is compassion being extended?

When a person who could exist just fine without meat, chooses to eat meat anyway, how is that extending compassion to the animal?

I have tried to articulate why, but when I do I seem to become the topic of conversation rather than the points I'm trying to make.

I don't recall you ever being the topic of conversation, but I can certainly sympathize with feeling that way! It's happened to me quite a few times here on this thread.

Maybe the problem is one of terminology. Perhaps if you were to use the word 'balanced' or 'sustainable' or 'responsible' I could see it being used in this context. But, based on the definition of the word compassion, I'm not seeing how it's applied in this case.

If you think about your position, you might see why some participants in this thread have felt judged. If it's considered depolarizing to eat meat, and if the goal here is to polarize, then those who eat meat are by definition doing something... if not wrong, then certainly, shall we say, not helpful.

Sure. I see that.

My point has always been, though, that the feeling judged is coming from within, not from the vegetarians. If the meat-eaters truly felt good about eating meat, they wouldn't feel judged regardless of what the vegetarians say.

I previously gave the example of me not feeling guilty about eating plants. Plenty of people have tried to make the case that plants have feelings too, and that I am causing suffering by eating plants, just as much as they are to animals.

Yet, I haven't felt a single twinge of guilt, even though some people might even have intended to judge me, in retaliation for their feelings of perceived judgment. Why? What is the difference here?

I do, however, confess to feeling some guilt over occasionally eating cheese at restaurants, knowing full well that dairy cows are subjected to intense suffering too. We're not vegans, but we always buy the 'organic' cheese from free ranging cows. I actually don't eat cheese much anymore, and am gravitating more and more to raw vegan. But I confess to not always being strict about cheese when options are limited at restaurants.

This thread has helped me to face this contradiction, and I'm vowing to no longer eat cheese unless I know for sure it's humanely produced. I don't need cheese anyway. It's fattening and has no redeeming value, other than as a comfort food. But cheese has always been a reliable standby in restaurants, when there was nothing else edible (to a vegetarian) except salads.

But I can live without cheese. My body doesn't need it. I don't think any body needs cheese. Eggs, yes. Cheese? No. It's just got that yummy texture so it's a good comfort food. But it has very little food value. It's mostly just bad for our health. It'll be more inconvenient in restaurants, but I think I'm ready to take on that commitment.

So I did feel a bit of guilt on that, and I am endeavoring to act on it. I believe guilt comes from within, and it's something to pay attention to. The guilt I felt was a signal to me from my conscience, that I could do better. So I intend to. I might fail sometimes, and if I do, I trust that my conscience will let me know.

I felt no such guilt over my lovely salad today.

That's why, I think, a lot of the dialog in this thread has followed the form "It's OK to eat meat because X" "No it's not because Y." "Yes it is because Z." And then, a few pages later, back to X. You seem to know, deep in your bones, that eating meat is not good. I feel similarly strongly that it can be good. It's hard to see how to bridge the gap.

Well, in my opinion, the arguments from the meat-eaters have failed to address the core issues raised by the vegetarians. In my perception, the arguments from the meat-eaters have, for the most part, either been defensive ("I like meat and I have the right to eat it...it's my free will") or retaliatory ("well you eat plants, so you're causing suffering too!").

None have, in my opinion, succeeded in explaining how it can be 'good' or 'compassionate' to kill a being who is crying out in pain and struggling to live. It really boils down to that.

I am always open to considering any new thoughts on this, but I'm just being honest about how I perceive the arguments given thus far.

By the way, you said you were going to take a stab at my questions. I am still interested in your answers, if you are still interested in sharing. I think we got sidetracked. Or maybe I missed them?