08-05-2012, 09:48 AM
Well said here Siren: "If you may consider a slight correction, Shin'Ar, I would kindly suggest there is no such thing as "living and living again." There is only one living, and that living is life itself, and life is forever alive.
Contrary to popular misunderstanding, it is erroneous to see death as the opposite of life. Life has no opposite, it simply has phases—namely, birth and death. Hence, the opposite of birth is death. Life flows unimpeded through the death/birth and birth/death processes of an incarnation. Irregardless of whether you are "dead" or "born," you are still alive. Life is pure energy, life is consciousness itself. You are always ALIVE (albeit to various degrees of livingness)." UNQUOTE
This is exactly the point I am trying to make to ZenMaster. the transition is not some limbo where life/evolution ceases to continue.
And although I agree with what you have stated in the above quote, I do not think that in the state between life and death that the consciousness is able to interact with this realm of the flesh. at least not in the ways that are described as hauntings and apparitions.
you also make a valid point for consideration with regard to light being and form, and I respectfully continue to disagree somewhat.
Siren said: "Form is light and light is form. For as long as you are using light as clothing, medium, vehicle of experience, you will have some form. And the time/space form will typically be concordant with the entity's space/time form, as well as also be subject to the entity's level or degree of awareness, of course (i.e. how self-conscious an entity is regarding itself, its reality, and its identity as Creator). Therefore, irregardless of form, whether of "flesh and blood" as you say, or more "ghostly" or "ethereal," the form is made of LIGHT. Light is the manifestation, light is your clothing and your vehicle, whether in the so-called physical or metaphysical." UNQUOTE
It is not that I suggest that your comprehension is inaccurate, because of course this is speculation on both parts, but I think that because of our individual comprehensions that we are describing very different things here.
For instance it seems that the light form that you are speaking of is this same word of god/Logos that you have spoken of in other threads. am I correct? if so, then what you are speaking of is the action/vibration of The Source that 'becomes' matter in the 'process of its being'.
It is not matter in its original form as an acting energy or thought process. It becomes matter as that vibration/thought/ consciousness acts into creation and becomes denser developing into matter at some point of that process.
For example, not all frequencies can alter particular matter. A vibration must reach a specific finely tuned pitch in order to become the action which will shatter that crystal glass. However all waves vibrate at some frequency, low or high, but it is not the action of their vibrating that makes them a form, but the aspect of their particular frequency, in other words, there is a 'process/action involved that is what becomes matter, beyond the vibration which is the energy behind the result.
This is the difference between what you define as light being and what I define as Light being.
You are using the word being to suggest an entity or matter, the result of the process having taken a form.
I am using the word being to suggest the 'process of being, not the result, but rather the process or action.
What I speak of is the Chi, the Ra, the difference between the Ba and the Ka. What I speak of when I use the term Light Being would be better said this way, the 'process' of light actually becoming or being at various frequencies.
Now I know we have discussed this many times and I know exactly how you equate the Light to the Word of God. But I take your thought process a little deeper toward the origin by suggesting that this Light, as 'you' would define it, is not result of the Source acting, it is the energy of the Source acting. And it is this distinction which causes me to always point to the Process of Being. And I know people are tired of hearing me state this over and over, but in my understanding this is crucial to comprehending the difference between matter and Spirit.
Matter is the result. It is the consequence of the Thought Process. It is the manifestation of the Thought. It is the Process of being, and this is what 'all that is manifest' really is. Including our human forms and temporary identities to which we think we are so attached because of the delusion which our physical organ, the brain, causes us to experience.
So the Being in the transition between life and death is no longer matter, but process. It is pure consciousness, which is pure light/thought/vibration in the process of becoming matter; but not matter. This is the Sacred Flame that each of us truly is. A Divine 'process of being' that will result in many forms as the process becomes matter.
In the stage between life and death that 'process of being/field of consciousness', as you have acknowledged, continues to be that which it has always been and will always be, a 'process'. It is a mistake to equate this flame or the light with the flame and light of matter, or of the material realm of assumed forms. It is not the flame of a camp fire. It is the energy force behind creation that is the process of the source, the One, being/existing.
It is the Nwyfre!
When our material forms expire, it is because their vibrations have been altered to the point where transformation takes place. In higher evolved states of being we are able to alter our vibration deliberately to take other forms by matching their frequencies. But in between those two actions/processes of altering vibrations there is always the Divine Vibration, which is the one force of creation, the action of the Source which creates, the 'process' of becoming some form or frequency. The same process that is always taking place as you also noted.
This is what I speak of when I speak of light being/becoming/altering/proceeding to become. And this is the state that we become in this transition between life and death of human reincarnation, as with any transition between frequencies.
As you state clearly, "Only the formless is truly formless."
And the 'Process' of Being is formless, that is why it called the process. It is becoming a form. It cannot be both the form and the process of becoming that form. When our forms expire, 'we' as our brain has identified us, no longer exist except as memory within the field of consciousness. This 'WE' reverts to the vibration of The Source acting/thinking and becomes process, rather than the result of the process acquiring form/becoming matter, which is the consequence of achieving specific frequencies.
I think the problem that many have in this regard is that they continue to associate this after life with their form, which is why they continue to think in terms of the transition working through its past experience and resolving issues and learning from them. But in reality, it is not the 'WE' that is doing this in the transition because that is now nothing but memory and expired brain function/dead rotten flesh decaying with the rest of that material. The Being which is doing the retrospection is The One Consciousness, the One Process of Being, and the retrospection may be about the experiences of that fragmented field of consciousness it realized as the 'WE' that experienced that vibration/form/matter, but that no longer exists to retrospect on anything at all. That delusional identity rots away with the brain, except for the memories of that experience which have been stored in the field of consciousness, which is connected to all fields, via The One Field of the source, and this process is the very process of being that evolves. It is The One Consciousness of The Source evolving through many of these processes and experiences, which in our own subjection within it, however temporary is both vital and very real during this physical time of experiencing it. This is why I always equate time with continuing and past process instead of simultaneity.
ZenMaster said- " yes I believe we need a body in order to evolve. Otherwise the mind would not have a mirror for itself. space/time locality is always going to be an instance of some aspect of one's totality. The properties of that instance are selected based on what most needs to be reflected back for conscious consideration in order to balance." UNQUOTE
Do you see that you are equating the mind/consciousness with the brain? And do you not see that if what you just suggested is factual, then it also implies that this 'mind', as you define it, would have to reflect back upon billions of experiences and past forms all the way back to its spawn? What you are doing is making my point that the one doing the reflecting is NOT 'you'. or 'I', but it is The One.
You do not have to become insulting Zen. I am not trying to become evasive due to inability to declare my thoughts, I am simply pointing out that because we are using very different definitions of identity and consciousness, and because that difference is the meat of my explanation and speculation, that we are obviously unable to discuss it rationally.
I think my discussion with Siren will serve to make my thoughts very clear.
Contrary to popular misunderstanding, it is erroneous to see death as the opposite of life. Life has no opposite, it simply has phases—namely, birth and death. Hence, the opposite of birth is death. Life flows unimpeded through the death/birth and birth/death processes of an incarnation. Irregardless of whether you are "dead" or "born," you are still alive. Life is pure energy, life is consciousness itself. You are always ALIVE (albeit to various degrees of livingness)." UNQUOTE
This is exactly the point I am trying to make to ZenMaster. the transition is not some limbo where life/evolution ceases to continue.
And although I agree with what you have stated in the above quote, I do not think that in the state between life and death that the consciousness is able to interact with this realm of the flesh. at least not in the ways that are described as hauntings and apparitions.
you also make a valid point for consideration with regard to light being and form, and I respectfully continue to disagree somewhat.
Siren said: "Form is light and light is form. For as long as you are using light as clothing, medium, vehicle of experience, you will have some form. And the time/space form will typically be concordant with the entity's space/time form, as well as also be subject to the entity's level or degree of awareness, of course (i.e. how self-conscious an entity is regarding itself, its reality, and its identity as Creator). Therefore, irregardless of form, whether of "flesh and blood" as you say, or more "ghostly" or "ethereal," the form is made of LIGHT. Light is the manifestation, light is your clothing and your vehicle, whether in the so-called physical or metaphysical." UNQUOTE
It is not that I suggest that your comprehension is inaccurate, because of course this is speculation on both parts, but I think that because of our individual comprehensions that we are describing very different things here.
For instance it seems that the light form that you are speaking of is this same word of god/Logos that you have spoken of in other threads. am I correct? if so, then what you are speaking of is the action/vibration of The Source that 'becomes' matter in the 'process of its being'.
It is not matter in its original form as an acting energy or thought process. It becomes matter as that vibration/thought/ consciousness acts into creation and becomes denser developing into matter at some point of that process.
For example, not all frequencies can alter particular matter. A vibration must reach a specific finely tuned pitch in order to become the action which will shatter that crystal glass. However all waves vibrate at some frequency, low or high, but it is not the action of their vibrating that makes them a form, but the aspect of their particular frequency, in other words, there is a 'process/action involved that is what becomes matter, beyond the vibration which is the energy behind the result.
This is the difference between what you define as light being and what I define as Light being.
You are using the word being to suggest an entity or matter, the result of the process having taken a form.
I am using the word being to suggest the 'process of being, not the result, but rather the process or action.
What I speak of is the Chi, the Ra, the difference between the Ba and the Ka. What I speak of when I use the term Light Being would be better said this way, the 'process' of light actually becoming or being at various frequencies.
Now I know we have discussed this many times and I know exactly how you equate the Light to the Word of God. But I take your thought process a little deeper toward the origin by suggesting that this Light, as 'you' would define it, is not result of the Source acting, it is the energy of the Source acting. And it is this distinction which causes me to always point to the Process of Being. And I know people are tired of hearing me state this over and over, but in my understanding this is crucial to comprehending the difference between matter and Spirit.
Matter is the result. It is the consequence of the Thought Process. It is the manifestation of the Thought. It is the Process of being, and this is what 'all that is manifest' really is. Including our human forms and temporary identities to which we think we are so attached because of the delusion which our physical organ, the brain, causes us to experience.
So the Being in the transition between life and death is no longer matter, but process. It is pure consciousness, which is pure light/thought/vibration in the process of becoming matter; but not matter. This is the Sacred Flame that each of us truly is. A Divine 'process of being' that will result in many forms as the process becomes matter.
In the stage between life and death that 'process of being/field of consciousness', as you have acknowledged, continues to be that which it has always been and will always be, a 'process'. It is a mistake to equate this flame or the light with the flame and light of matter, or of the material realm of assumed forms. It is not the flame of a camp fire. It is the energy force behind creation that is the process of the source, the One, being/existing.
It is the Nwyfre!
When our material forms expire, it is because their vibrations have been altered to the point where transformation takes place. In higher evolved states of being we are able to alter our vibration deliberately to take other forms by matching their frequencies. But in between those two actions/processes of altering vibrations there is always the Divine Vibration, which is the one force of creation, the action of the Source which creates, the 'process' of becoming some form or frequency. The same process that is always taking place as you also noted.
This is what I speak of when I speak of light being/becoming/altering/proceeding to become. And this is the state that we become in this transition between life and death of human reincarnation, as with any transition between frequencies.
As you state clearly, "Only the formless is truly formless."
And the 'Process' of Being is formless, that is why it called the process. It is becoming a form. It cannot be both the form and the process of becoming that form. When our forms expire, 'we' as our brain has identified us, no longer exist except as memory within the field of consciousness. This 'WE' reverts to the vibration of The Source acting/thinking and becomes process, rather than the result of the process acquiring form/becoming matter, which is the consequence of achieving specific frequencies.
I think the problem that many have in this regard is that they continue to associate this after life with their form, which is why they continue to think in terms of the transition working through its past experience and resolving issues and learning from them. But in reality, it is not the 'WE' that is doing this in the transition because that is now nothing but memory and expired brain function/dead rotten flesh decaying with the rest of that material. The Being which is doing the retrospection is The One Consciousness, the One Process of Being, and the retrospection may be about the experiences of that fragmented field of consciousness it realized as the 'WE' that experienced that vibration/form/matter, but that no longer exists to retrospect on anything at all. That delusional identity rots away with the brain, except for the memories of that experience which have been stored in the field of consciousness, which is connected to all fields, via The One Field of the source, and this process is the very process of being that evolves. It is The One Consciousness of The Source evolving through many of these processes and experiences, which in our own subjection within it, however temporary is both vital and very real during this physical time of experiencing it. This is why I always equate time with continuing and past process instead of simultaneity.
ZenMaster said- " yes I believe we need a body in order to evolve. Otherwise the mind would not have a mirror for itself. space/time locality is always going to be an instance of some aspect of one's totality. The properties of that instance are selected based on what most needs to be reflected back for conscious consideration in order to balance." UNQUOTE
Do you see that you are equating the mind/consciousness with the brain? And do you not see that if what you just suggested is factual, then it also implies that this 'mind', as you define it, would have to reflect back upon billions of experiences and past forms all the way back to its spawn? What you are doing is making my point that the one doing the reflecting is NOT 'you'. or 'I', but it is The One.
You do not have to become insulting Zen. I am not trying to become evasive due to inability to declare my thoughts, I am simply pointing out that because we are using very different definitions of identity and consciousness, and because that difference is the meat of my explanation and speculation, that we are obviously unable to discuss it rationally.
I think my discussion with Siren will serve to make my thoughts very clear.