Now THIS is REALLY INTERESTING!!

[unity100]

What a 'spiritual teacher' is saying when they charge for something they put together is "I spent years and years of my life accumulating a bookshelf worth of books, going on retreats, going to seminars, traveling to other countries, paying for adept training, etc. etc. You don't have to spend the $15,000 I've spent on all of that. I've accumulated everything I know into this package. Buy it if you want, and here's a bunch of other stuff for free." I see nothing wrong with that.

does spirit charge for what it gives to those people ?

[3DMonkey]

hahaha. Not money anyway

[Oceania]

it's not the information, it's the time you put in it.

[Raman]

The matrix formed around money as the basis of relationships between humans is absurd...they would not find who killed president kennedy but they will find you in the middle of the Amazon forest if you did not pay your taxes (except if you are a banker, CEO, etc...)

MOney is absurd...I absolutely do not understand why people want it...only thing I know it helps family an dme to survive in this matrix..So the important thing is the intention. I think LL reserach selling stuff is very different to David W selling his or others like that fellow on avalon or whatever name is the project.

Bu I agree with many of you. money...kinda give me nausea and vomiting. unfortunately i need it. -----because other people wants it...

[βαθμιαίος]

does spirit charge for what it gives to those people ?

"There is no experience which is not purchased by effort of some kind, no act of service-to-self or others which does not bear a price, to the entity manifesting, commensurate with its purity."

[native]

does spirit charge for what it gives to those people ?

I'm with you. Ideally information should not come at a cost. Those that are devoted to the spiritual path full-time have to make money somehow.

I hate to speak for Carla, but she has mentioned that she has been a spiritual counselor. That title usually indicates that someone offers their services at a cost, though I can't say that is the case for her.

Are we honestly going to say Carla is a bad person if she did charge money? And the Law of One websites haven't been around forever, which means the books weren't always free.

[3DMonkey]

it's not the information, it's the time you put in it.

Time is money. The more time I save, the less money I have. Huh?

But if time doesn't exist....I'm rich!!!

anybody can charge what they want. I'm not hatin' the playa'. It does make the interview a commercial of sorts though. A different flavor. Hey, I'm just saying...

[Meerie]

Who knows..it's all debatable. She says she has no past lives, that's why she doesn't remember any. There are probably aspects of the Creator that never incarnate and perform other functions. I see no reason to place limits on why and how things happen, and to try and answer everything through our limited framework of spirit evolution.

According to Dolores Cannon, there are quite a few souls incarnate here who had no previous lives. Thru her regressions she however found out that they have "Imprints" of other peoples past lives. That means, they might actually remember a past life in a regression, but it is one they have not lived themselves. Each soul gets to choose imprints so they won't feel completely lost here since it is their first time. I like the idea, like you go to a bookstore and read a biography of someone elses life. Does't it at times make you feel you are right inside that persons life too?

[unity100]

does spirit charge for what it gives to those people ?

"There is no experience which is not purchased by effort of some kind, no act of service-to-self or others which does not bear a price, to the entity manifesting, commensurate with its purity."

the development of spirit, is in itself a top tier effort. slow.

does spirit charge for what it gives to those people ?

I'm with you. Ideally information should not come at a cost. Those that are devoted to the spiritual path full-time have to make money somehow.

I hate to speak for Carla, but she has mentioned that she has been a spiritual counselor. That title usually indicates that someone offers their services at a cost, though I can't say that is the case for her.

Are we honestly going to say Carla is a bad person if she did charge money? And the Law of One websites haven't been around forever, which means the books weren't always free.

the precise situation in regard to her karma, vibrations and purity is rather impossible to estimate. could possibly only be seen after cessation of incarnation. maybe not even then, but later.

but, the idea is, we know that such situations reduce purity. it is up to each to strive for the highest purity level they can.

[3DMonkey]

Can't reach purity by avoiding getting down and dirty. Dig into catalyst instead of pretending it's not there.

[native]

According to Dolores Cannon, there are quite a few souls incarnate here who had no previous lives. Thru her regressions she however found out that they have "Imprints" of other peoples past lives. That means, they might actually remember a past life in a regression, but it is one they have not lived themselves. Each soul gets to choose imprints so they won't feel completely lost here since it is their first time. I like the idea, like you go to a bookstore and read a biography of someone elses life. Does't it at times make you feel you are right inside that persons life too?

Cannon's work is iffy..some of it is in-line with what we know and a lot of it isn't. We know that each soul goes through the same process of evolution, but didn't Ra say there were those that always existed at certain densities and inner/outer planes?

I think it's possible that a Logos could decide to send a divine spark as Inelia called it and see what happens. I wouldn't place limits on the Creator's experimentation.

I also think it's possible that there are those that are forbidden from accessing past-lives for various reasons. For instance, from what Jordan Maxwell has said about his personal experiences it seems that he has probably been a powerful negative entity in the past, has switched polarities, and so came here to work for the light. It would seem poetic, having a negative past, that an entity would want to come to a planet as an extremely motivated light-bringer that would illuminate many.

*Jordan once pleaded to an entity during one of his mystical experiences that he never wanted to be taken from his bedroom at night, that he didn't want to experience that fear of sudden encounter in his place of solace. They found this amusing and said something to the effect of "You don't know who you are and what you have done."

Anyway. I think Inelia's understanding of her past is either distorted because it has to be so she doesn't get side-tracked or what she says is true.

---

but, the idea is, we know that such situations reduce purity. it is up to each to strive for the highest purity level they can.

Sure, but until we exist in a world where money is no longer needed we will have to be compensated somehow. And of course here in 3d we won't be free of impurity. Love and gratefulness is given in return for what is purchased.

[unity100]

Sure, but until we exist in a world where money is no longer needed we will have to be compensated somehow. And of course here in 3d we won't be free of impurity. Love and gratefulness is given in return for what is purchased.

everyone is responsible with going as pure as they can. law of responsibility doesnt wait or doesnt accept excuses. it acts.

there are countless number examples of famous and obscure spiritual teachers, who went on with their activities as pure as possible.

[kycahi]

When Don, Carla and Jim first began the Ra contact project, Don's job paid him more than his cost of frugal living. He wanted to make the Ra material available for donations only, and that worked until he made the transition to time/space.

After that, Jim and Carla needed to cover the costs of L/L Research, including continued publishing for donations only. They made one change in the Light Lines newsletter--they put next to each book title the amount of donation money that would cover its cost.

Jim loves being outdoors and is physically fit, so he took on lawn care projects to bring in some money. Carla is not physically fit, due to many factors, so she made known that she would do personal consultations. Both of those jobs are in service to others and support their needs for food clothing and shelter, while also supporting the functions of a continually growing L/L Research foundation. Rest assured that L/L Research is not a profit-making enterprise.

That said, my personal opinion is that doing spiritual work for money can be non-corrupting, but always with a huge risk. I also know of people who set out to exploit the need for spiritual leadership for a profit, and were successful for a time.

[native]

Thanks for the clarification kycahi. It seems that they have always used the best intentions they are capable of.

Unity - If you think about it, every action in contribution has a spiritual nature to it. For instance, farming is a spiritual duty in that it feeds the collective. Being a mechanic is spiritual in that it helps mobilize. A webmaster helps to connect others. So my question is do you work for free? If not, what do you require for your services?

[unity100]

im irrelevant to the crux of the matter. even if i am the biggest capitalist of the world, or someone who is being fed by ambrosia, law of responsibility still would keep acting on everyone equally. including me.

yet, even tho what i am doing is person to person directly, and im working on a contract basis with people, not corporations even, i am directly feeling the effects of participating in the system in my vibrations.

[Oceania]

The matrix formed around money as the basis of relationships between humans is absurd...they would not find who killed president kennedy but they will find you in the middle of the Amazon forest if you did not pay your taxes (except if you are a banker, CEO, etc...)

MOney is absurd...I absolutely do not understand why people want it...only thing I know it helps family an dme to survive in this matrix..So the important thing is the intention. I think LL reserach selling stuff is very different to David W selling his or others like that fellow on avalon or whatever name is the project.

Bu I agree with many of you. money...kinda give me nausea and vomiting. unfortunately i need it. -----because other people wants it...

so you judge DW but admit you need money to survive? so does DW and he actually works the money and gives a lot free. if he works 24/7 on spiritual stuff how is he supposed to live?

[native]

im irrelevant to the crux of the matter.

I'm simply saying that those who participate in the system of money also can't be critical of others. Whether someone's work is spiritually related or not, it's all ownership in the end.

[Raman]

I'm deleting post i'm tired arguing about some things.

[unity100]

im irrelevant to the crux of the matter.

I'm simply saying that those who participate in the system of money also can't be critical of others. Whether someone's work is spiritually related or not, it's all ownership in the end.

first of all, there are no prerequisites to criticizing anything. the very 'everyone's doing it' or 'since you are doing the same' justifications are the things that make the hypocrisy like what Ra expresses as principles being accepted while being taught, but immediately ignored in practice in real life.

i see 'whether someone's work is spiritually related or not' as a very unfortunate statement.

someone adopting spiritually related work as a means to survival, and the orange/yellow negative system of this planet corrupting the spiritual work through its negative tenets is a recurring theme in this planet's history - so a recurring theme that it never ever failed to fulfill its premise.

currently the best choice seems to be keeping spiritual work, and survival work separate.

[native]

There certainly is a prerequisite, but it is more of a simultaneous thing, that being that you can't point the finger without (literally) pointing your finger at the self also.

I've seen you defend money being unnecessary, to which I agree, yet you participate in and perpetuate the system and now (apparently), are saying one act of accepting money is better than the other.

There is no excuse as to why you should be able to work for money and those that do spiritual work shouldn't. There may be a higher effect, it's possible, but it is moot in the end. In essence, neither should be charging. Everything should be devoted towards serving others and therefore be considered spiritual. Everything should be freely given, because no one owns anything and your line of work is not an exception. So the point is, we acknowledge that we are in an unfortunate position and do what we have to to survive and progress. Ideally, someone doing spiritual work could lessen the impurity of directly charging for their spiritual work and support themselves with side-tasks, but that isn't always the case.

We are essentially caught in a philosophical divide here on the nature of criticism, not about the specifics of money and spirituality. I think it is more important to call attention to the character and intention of who is being criticized. I would say it is more worthwhile to make a distinction between those who seek great profit and those who are really trying to make a difference. In this way there isn't a debate about participation in different levels of a system as somehow being better than the other (spiritual vs. 'non-spiritual'), rather, we focus on the intention behind the participation as what is ultimately important. If any participation in the system is ultimately bad, then it is essentially the character/intention behind it that the distinction lies.

I question the difference of impurity however, as it relates to intention. If your intentions are good, it may offset some of the impurity, and therefore the effort could be considered worthwhile. We can't know the specifics on a metaphysical level. It is best to work towards purity as you say.

[unity100]

There certainly is a prerequisite, but it is more of a simultaneous thing, that being that you can't point the finger without (literally) pointing your finger at the self also.

the magical side of this is, regardless of the pointed fingers, law of responsibility still acts indiscriminately.

the one pointing finger or the one pointed at - these dont make any difference.

I've seen you defend money being unnecessary, to which I agree, yet you participate in and perpetuate the system and now (apparently), are saying one act of accepting money is better than the other.

There is no excuse as to why you should be able to work for money and those that do spiritual work shouldn't. There may be a higher effect, it's possible, but it is moot in the end. In essence, neither should be charging. Everything should be devoted towards serving others and therefore be considered spiritual. Everything should be freely given, because no one owns anything and your line of work is not an exception. So the point is, we acknowledge that we are in an unfortunate position and do what we have to to survive and progress. Ideally, someone doing spiritual work could lessen the impurity of directly charging for their spiritual work and support themselves with side-tasks, but that isn't always the case.

We are essentially caught in a philosophical divide here on the nature of criticism, not about the specifics of money and spirituality. I think it is more important to call attention to the character and intention of who is being criticized. I would say it is more worthwhile to make a distinction between those who seek great profit and those who are really trying to make a difference. In this way there isn't a debate about participation in different levels of a system as somehow being better than the other (spiritual vs. 'non-spiritual'), rather, we focus on the intention behind the participation as what is ultimately important. If any participation in the system is ultimately bad, then it is essentially the character/intention behind it that the distinction lies.

I question the difference of impurity however, as it relates to intention. If your intentions are good, it may offset some of the impurity, and therefore the effort could be considered worthwhile. We can't know the specifics on a metaphysical level. It is best to work towards purity as you say.

it isnt that complicated. its actually quite simple :

it does matter that you dont charge for spiritual information, but garden work, because of magical/spiritual principles :

the money system, trade and all that brings are related to first 3 centers at most. at best. it is actually, due to ownership concept in this society, more related to orange than yellow. whereas spiritual information/higher vibrations are related to higher rays. ranges from green to white.

when you charge for lawn work, you are tying one red/orange/yellow act and energies (with yellow being rather small in the equation) with the orange/yellow tenets of the money/trade system.

when you charge for spiritual work, you are tying green/blue/indigo/violet/white act and energies, with the same orange/yellow tenets of the money/trade system.

in a way, the higher energies you bring, are put at the whim of an orange blockage/yellow sts social interaction. you give these energies if you are supplied with the requirement of self-serving demand of orange/yellow money system, and you dont, if you dont.

even if green ray can tolerate this, at the minimum this breaks at the blue ray of the equation, which requires and demands to be free and flow freely. (in retrospect, blue is also the ray which facilitates understanding of one's own spirit and spiritual influxes - which would naturally lead to muddying/compromise of the channel). not to mention that, the manifestation of these rays, require open red/orange/yellow at the minimum, as opposed to a system that requires blockage of orange ray and negative yellow ray.

so in short, green, blue, indigo, violet, white, becomes made subject to whims of orange/yellow, negative.

the magical implications of these would be endless to discuss. but then again, it is quite easy to see, what it ends up in, if we look at spiritual literature.

that is why it is important to avoid to charge for spiritual information.

---

on a footnote ; law of responsibility doesnt discriminate even for intention - if intention caused evasion of responsibility, ra wouldnt be incarnated on this planet to the numbers of ~ 60 million in order to amend the effects of what they have done.

[Raman]

It is indeed important. It reminds me of old marxist philosophers saying not matter what you do capitalism would absorb everything. And capitalism is about maintaining beings on lower rays through fear of survival and negative yellow (plus red/orange) which is what negatives use to polarize. So in this case, orange yellow (negative) will absorb any activity as long as is made in a capitalist environment.

But using higher rays and allowing them to be absorbed by the orange/yellow negative, (on intentional purpose (could happen after initial different intentions) <--- is very low spiritually. But if the intention is to maintain a red ray of survival, while trying to transmit higher vibrations, the difference (to me) is important, for obvious reasons.


By the way, unity100 are you saying that all of Ra memory complex is incarnated or you are referring to 5th density plane?

[native]

That is an excellent answer in certain respects, but I'm not sure we can know the full interplay.

For instance, what about the resulting energies at play? There is gratitude from the buyer. It hopefully results in peace, solace, and their awakening. There is the lightening of the planetary consciousness. Maybe these results heal any impurity in the original exchange, and there is forgiveness on a time/space level, alleviating any karma incurred.

What is the real question that needs to be asked? Is it which activity is most negatively affective?

I still do not see lower-energy related exchanges as being significantly less affective. In fact, they are worse because they block the lower energies. In terms of the overall state of being it places on the collective, it is the whole reason the awakening has been delayed. The necessities all cost money and they are expensive, causing problems in all areas of an individual's life and this does not create a peaceful state within so they are able to seek. These exchanges significantly impact the individual more than charging for spiritual information.

I only see a noteworthy amount of damage being done in charging for spiritual exchanges only if the person needs it and circumstances prevent them from having it. The great thing about spiritual information is that most of it never comes at a cost, as much of it IS exchanged freely and always has been. It is only when an individual demands specific information, do they run into the money issue.

---

Question..where does the 60 million wanderers from Ra come from? As in, was it said in Q'uo?

[unity100]

It is indeed important. It reminds me of old marxist philosophers saying not matter what you do capitalism would absorb everything. And capitalism is about maintaining beings on lower rays through fear of survival and negative yellow (plus red/orange) which is what negatives use to polarize. So in this case, orange yellow (negative) will absorb any activity as long as is made in a capitalist environment.

not surprising - system of ownership is related to orange ray ownership blockages.

and in orange ray, everything is seen as an extension of self. in its earlier phases, actually everything is the part of the sub-logos to a certain degree.

so, the system reflects those characteristics ranging from that early orange, to late orange. it tries to get, absorb, and use everything for the self, for growth and sustenance and pleasure of the self, in an animalistic way.

By the way, unity100 are you saying that all of Ra memory complex is incarnated or you are referring to 5th density plane?

ra had said that there were 60+ mil wanderers circa 1981 or so, and most of them were from Ra.

That is an excellent answer in certain respects, but I'm not sure we can know the full interplay.

full interplay would be quite entropic and complex, as you can easily see from even what the real life in this society is like. but i will try to elaborate :

For instance, what about the resulting energies at play? There is gratitude from the buyer. It hopefully results in peace, solace, and their awakening. There is the lightening of the planetary consciousness. Maybe these results heal any impurity in the original exchange, and there is forgiveness on a time/space level, alleviating the blockage of the seller.

everything, even the gratitude of the buyer would probably be in the dominance of the orange ray to yellow ray. anything starts from that window, will go through that window's characteristics, until the links chaining it to the orange ray (its a sticky ray) are broken. if, the entity keeps continuing the same format and follow same source, s/he would move on to more tainted channels or stay on less orange tinted channels depending on the magnitude of the orange element.

'money given ? ok, then higher ray is radiated. if not, it is not. how much money is this higher ray worth / i paid this much for this higher information/ray' and so on.

as for enlightening of consciousness of the planet, as long as it happens in such a scale of orange/yellow ray ownership system, it will cause entropy at first, and absorption effect raman talks about - not too dissimilar with the spiritual literature we see these days - almost all of them started to converge in similar lines.

What is the real question that needs to be asked? Is it which activity is most negatively affective?

magical implications are important. you will remember that the negative path follows a line that doesnt have any of the higher rays until early indigo. green and blue is missing from that. so, in a way, this orange ray ownership blockage mechanism also imitates that - it puts higher energies at the whim of the lower rays, instead of allowing free flow.

[Bring4th_Austin]

ra had said that there were 60+ mil wanderers circa 1981 or so, and most of them were from Ra.

Having trouble finding where Ra states that the wanderers were from Ra. Could I bug you for a reference? I don't remember that in the material.

[3DMonkey]

32.14 Questioner: I meant was it possible for a green ray person who is primarily of green ray activation to vary on both sides of the green ray in a large or a small amount in regards to energy activation, or is he primarily green ray?
Ra: I am Ra. We grasp the newness of material requested by you. It was unclear, for we thought we had covered this material. The portion covered is this: the green ray activation is always vulnerable to the yellow or orange ray of possession, this being largely yellow ray but often coming into orange ray. Fear of possession, desire for possession, fear of being possessed, desire to be possessed: these are the distortions which will cause the deactivation of green ray energy transfer.

34.9 Questioner: Thank you. Can you give me the same type of information about the self in relation to the societal self?
Ra: I am Ra. The unmanifested self may find its lessons those which develop any of the energy influx centers of the mind/body/spirit complex. The societal and self interactions most often concentrate upon the second and third energy centers. Thus those most active in attempting to remake or alter the society are those working from feelings of being correct personally or of having answers which will put power in a more correct configuration. This may be seen to be of a full travel from negative to positive in orientation. Either will activate these energy ray centers.

There are some few whose desires to aid society are of a green ray nature or above. These entities, however, are few due to the understanding, may we say, of fourth ray that universal love freely given is more to be desired than principalities or even the rearrangement of peoples or political structures.

[Raman]

Under the predominant structure of this orange oriented capitalism...orange ray is even able to absorb (back) social movements such as in the USA for example, Affirmative Action (turned against minorities even tough it was supposed to help minority emancipation. This program no longer exist, the so called "elite" ideology (or capitalist ideology) able to turn it against itself...Also note for example feminist movement..orange ray reaction successfully absorbed feminism an turned this as a tool of men vs women and against freedom (see Julian Assange's arrest just as one example...)

There is no justice in orange yellow negative environment. I guess at this point our only hope is 4d positive for those who will be polarized enough to make it.

---

ra had said that there were 60+ mil wanderers circa 1981 or so, and most of them were from Ra.

That was my impression when I read the material. However, never said directly. But that is what "I felt".

---

Well here is the quote, unity100 is right:

45.3 Questioner: Can you tell me if a large percentage of the Wanderers here now are those of Ra?

Ra: I am Ra. I can.

45.4 Questioner: Are they?

Ra: I am Ra. A significant portion of sixth-density Wanderers are those of our social memory complex. Another large portion consists of those who aided those in South America; another portion, those aiding Atlantis. All are sixth density and all brother and sister groups due to the unified feeling that as we had been aided by shapes such as the pyramid, so we could aid your peoples.

Now I know where I got the "feeling" from...

[Raman]

So Atlantis also had pyramids...maybe under the Atlantic...

So Mayan pyramids, Egyptian, Atlantean...Humm now I know where I got the "feeling" the Mayans and their pyramids and their calendar can teach us a lot....

[unity100]

i forgot that the group that aided atlanteans was a different one. i had the inclination to merge them with the south american group.

.................

in another respect, 'absorbtion' in regard to civil rights and other movements in usa is a good example. all of those really got absorbed. they have not only become part of the money making machine, but also became distorted in favor of those who are using it. same process is going on in the spiritual literature.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I wish Ra would quantify terms like this use of "significant portion." What do they consider significant? 30%? 10%? 5%? If there's a large variety of wanderers from everywhere, and most Social Memory Complexes don't make up more than .5%, significant portion could mean 3%.

I'm guessing, since Ra named 3 groups, the number is around 30%, maybe...