In regards to eating meat

[BrownEye]

Ask anyone with a cat or dog whether their pet feels emotion. It's obvious.

In my opinion it appears to be a display of emotion when I step on their tail.


I could be wrong though. The tail could just be a trigger to show teeth that have nothing to do with nerves or feeling.

I think more testing is needed.

Then a comparison of stepping on a persons appendage to see if there are any signs of emotion.

[Oceania]

yes animals feel emotions. yep. true dat. and plants are very much less evolved so they have probably less honed emotions. say a carrot feels something. why? is it disappointed? is it excited? angry? why would a carrot be anything like that? it has no reason to be. it doesn't even have a brain. it has existence, pure and simple. and thus it is very tuned to its environment. the ego, the mind, the more we accumulate the less aware we are of the surroundings. plants are probably empathic because they're zen creatures. they don't judge or expect. they mirror what's around. they have no ego, really. the ego of a carrot is puny at best. that means less emotion.

i also found DW's logic in the book faulty, dealing with the plants. the shrimp confused me.

[Monica]

In my opinion it appears to be a display of emotion when I step on their tail.


I could be wrong though. The tail could just be a trigger to show teeth that have nothing to do with nerves or feeling.

I think more testing is needed.

Then a comparison of stepping on a persons appendage to see if there are any signs of emotion.

Some atheist scientists assert that humans don't have emotions either, or free will either. It's all just neurons firing, in preprogrammed patterns based on stimuli.

[unity100]

?? Because I disagree with you? I have explained my points very clearly. Perhaps you don't understand my points? A discussion does not become ridiculous just because we disagree.

you are escaping into double standards. despite the material you study clearly states that blueprint for ALL life in the UNIVERSE is the same, you just introduce a convenient exception for your convenience so that you can keep doing what you are doing without any kind of conscience repercussions.

it doesnt matter how you see the exception you are introducing. exception is exception. the blueprint for ALL life in the universe, is same.. mind/body/spirit, 7 chakras, conscious/unconscious and all the emotions feelings and thoughts these bring.

this doesnt change just by saying that 'you dont see it as an exception'. it IS an exception. you are just denying that it is an exception. if we discuss further, you are going to redefine exception and evade that way. i have seen this before. from this point on it becomes pointless.

i thank you for your discussion.

[BrownEye]

the blueprint for ALL life in the universe, is same.. mind/body/spirit, 7 chakras, conscious/unconscious and all the emotions feelings and thoughts these bring.

I think there is a big difference between conscious and unconscious. How do you suffer when you are unconscious?

[3DMonkey]

And fish are somewhere in between.

Rebirth of the topic. The issue continues to teeter between biological effects and spiritual implications. I deal only with the spiritual implications in this discussion. I say there are none worthy enough to impact the individual from the "eternal" perspective.

[unity100]

the blueprint for ALL life in the universe, is same.. mind/body/spirit, 7 chakras, conscious/unconscious and all the emotions feelings and thoughts these bring.

I think there is a big difference between conscious and unconscious. How do you suffer when you are unconscious?

spirit is aware of everything that happens in its vicinity at all times.

[Monica]

you are escaping into double standards. despite the material you study clearly states that blueprint for ALL life in the UNIVERSE is the same, you just introduce a convenient exception for your convenience so that you can keep doing what you are doing without any kind of conscience repercussions.

No, you're wrong in your assessment of my motivations.

it doesnt matter how you see the exception you are introducing. exception is exception. the blueprint for ALL life in the universe, is same.. mind/body/spirit, 7 chakras, conscious/unconscious and all the emotions feelings and thoughts these bring.

this doesnt change just by saying that 'you dont see it as an exception'. it IS an exception. you are just denying that it is an exception. if we discuss further, you are going to redefine exception and evade that way. i have seen this before. from this point on it becomes pointless.

i thank you for your discussion.

It is you who seem to be evading the uncomfortable points. You keep repeating the same argument, without seeming to acknowledge or understand what I am saying. I clearly stated that all beings can have the same elements in potentiation, but may be at differing stages of their development.

Here, maybe this will illustrate: All humans have the same DNA blueprint. But, a child doesn't have the same bodily characteristics as an adult human, right? A female baby doesn't yet have developed breasts, for example. But those breasts do exist in the blueprint, in potentiation.

It is the same with emotions. ALL entities have the same blueprint for emotional manifestation. We know from Ra that emotions play a very important role in our development. But clearly, not all humans have the same range of emotional manifestation, even less so with 2D entities.

Emotions, like bodily characteristics, exist in the blueprint, but aren't yet fully manifested.

Does this clarify?

[Oceania]

and some people's boobs are round and squishy and others' are flat and droopy or one is bigger than the other one or they point in different directions. just cuz the blueprint is for boobies it doesn't mean they're the same model! i love your analogy.

[unity100]

'blueprint for all life is same'.

that is what i will say as final in this branch of discussion. it contains everything that can be said, lest one be willing to get into it.

thank you.

[Monica]

and some people's boobs are round and squishy and others' are flat and droopy or one is bigger than the other one or they point in different directions. just cuz the blueprint is for boobies it doesn't mean they're the same model! i love your analogy.

HAHAHA! Yes exactly! Blueprint is the same, yet entities manifest differently.

[Oceania]

maybe that's cuz we make choices. if you believe you choose your incarnation, and then more in life, we make choices all the time. and they result in differences. so of course we're all different while the blueprint is the same. the blueprint is the oil, we are the brush that paints with it.

[unity100]

and some people's boobs are round and squishy and others' are flat and droopy or one is bigger than the other one or they point in different directions. just cuz the blueprint is for boobies it doesn't mean they're the same model! i love your analogy.

analogy is wrong. the body in mind/BODY/spirit is not something that is tied to particular material or format used in any form.

it is something that pertains to archetypes.

[Monica]

analogy is wrong. the body in mind/BODY/spirit is not something that is tied to particular material or format used in any form.

it is something that pertains to archetypes.

Doesn't matter. Not all energies of the archetypes have full expression, in each entity at all phases of their development. So the analogy works.

[unity100]

analogy is wrong. the body in mind/BODY/spirit is not something that is tied to particular material or format used in any form.

it is something that pertains to archetypes.

Doesn't matter. Not all energies of the archetypes have full expression, in each entity at all phases of their development. So the analogy works.

all entities that are in a given density, are in that level of development and equipped with full facilities of that density.

[Oceania]

in other words you think a carrot has boobs. :exclamation:

[Monica]

in other words you think a carrot has boobs. :exclamation:

Thanks! I needed that laugh!

---

all entities that are in a given density, are in that level of development and equipped with full facilities of that density.

But they aren't all in the same stage of development. Look at how you commented on my 'blue.' Obviously, my 'blue' isn't manifested exactly like everyone else's 'blue.' It's the same with other attributes also. We are all at varying stages of development. We're all made of snow, but each is a unique snowflake.

[unity100]

i think we talked enough on this.

[3DMonkey]

i think we talked enough on this.

Yes. None of it really matters anyway. Simply, it is a moot point.

[Oldern]

i think we talked enough on this.

No offense, but this somehow comes up very frequently regarding your arguments. It might be something worth looking into when you meditate, imho. I was like that for years.

[3DMonkey]

LMAO!!!! Look at us!!!

[unity100]

i think we talked enough on this.

No offense, but this somehow comes up very frequently regarding your arguments. It might be something worth looking into when you meditate, imho. I was like that for years.

there is no point in discussing things after a certain point.

[zack231]

Since discovering the Law of One I absolutely hate eating meat but I cannot help but eat it as I am 18 and still living at home and that is all my family ever eats.. Occasionally I try not to eat it and feel much better about myself. For I can now see and feel through extensive seeking and meditation how everything is one, thus I see an animal as the same as a human, they are all the one consciousness of the infinite creator experiencing itself infintitely.. When I don't eat it or say I don't really like meat they just laugh at me and think I am joking..

I do feel a little better about it though after reading a channelling from Q'uo which stated that there is little impact on the spirit or beingness of an entity if it were of loving nature, they suggested that almost all karma and negativity can be taken out through sending love and light to the 2nd density creature which has passed though its incarnation and thanking it for passing and understanding the negativity it went though at the hands of another entity. Thus before I eat any meat I always have my hand over it (When no one is looking lol) I repeat this is my mind every time. "I thank this 2nd density creature for passing through it's incarnation, to bring sustenance to my body so that I am able to further develop my ways to the Law of One in service to other selves. I understand the fear it went though and send my love and light to it and thank it"

Quo stated that there was little effect on the spiritual path of a seeker though it is fine if not better not to eat it but that the entity is not responsible for the fear and torment the 2nd density creature went through thus the karma does not effect the individual who eats it to simply feed their hunger to stay within the 3rd density illusion, especially if love and light is sent to the 2nd density creature.

We would like to select one particular instance of this principle for our focus. It is understood among many spiritual seekers that except in cases of humane slaughter our second-density friends are routinely mistreated and abused in the process of converting their physical bodies into our meat foodstuffs. Specifically then, to what extent is the positively-oriented entity responsible for the suffering of second-density creatures when purchasing and consuming the meat of these animals?

(Snip) One valid choice that many of those who have awakened have made is not to eat meat and to find ways to furnish the body with the protein that meat offers by eating other substances, such as legumes, which contain protein.

Another choice that an awakened entity has, as the questioner said, is to move to the purchase only of meats that have been humanely slaughtered. There are two sources of such meats that are generally available to entities within a reasonable amount of distance from where they live. One is to seek out a kosher store [2] which sells meat, knowing that the priests of that religion have treated animals well and have slaughtered them in a sacred ritual which is taken most seriously by those priests.

(Snip)there is always the metaphysically correct choice of relating to the animal in that timeless condition which is called “metaphysical time” wherein all things occur simultaneously, so that you are able to contact any animal, before you eat it, no matter how abused or how slaughtered. And as you contact this animal, you express your love of this animal and your appreciation for all that the animal has gone through in order to give you its energy, its consciousness, such as it is, and its love, which is very real. So, in praise, prayer and thanksgiving you heal the division between you and the meat and the animal from which that meat came.

And as you do this to your meat, dancing with the meat, becoming one with the meat, you are in effect lifting that energy to the infinite Creator, blessing it and healing all that has gone before, for the animal and for you.

(Snip)Questioner: Thank you, Q’uo (Snip)And you also mentioned viable other alternatives for the entity with the growing awareness of the suffering of animals, but I didn’t quite hear anything about whether we are actually responsible for the suffering of other entities by participating in a system which perpetuates their suffering. I would appreciate any insight you may offer on that question.

[i](Snip)

Are you responsible for the fireworks that are going off outside this dwelling? [4] Are you your brother’s keeper? In truth, other entities and their actions are not within the purview of your choices. Your choices are those within your ability to make. You cannot be responsible for the folly of others except insofar as you are given the light to feel that you wish to take on a crusade to change others’ opinions, to change policy and so forth.

Spiritually speaking, your choices are all within yourself. And within yourself you have the power to do that which you feel is right. We did not move into the question of responsibility for your brother’s actions. And we would say, my friends, your brothers’ and your sisters’ actions, accept, for the most part, decisions such as war and slaughter made by those of the male biological principle upon your planet.

(Snip)in working with the basic query which was were you responsible for the meat that you eat in that if you eat meat that has been slaughtered by another you are buying into or inferring acceptance of that which you, in fact, do not accept. We were attempting to explain that you have the capacity at various levels to erase and heal those perceived errors by the way you choose to treat that which is before you, whether it is meat or war or whatever you have come upon that is suddenly in your face.

[_X7]

If the dracaena plant reaction of Dr Backster were so important, i'm surprised no one has bothered to replicate the experiment or develop a related field of evidence. Such experiments can be performed at low cost. My assumption is that this is far too subjective for big-science and not really interesting beyond speculation.

There have been many bio-research applications for ohm-meters (like Backster's polygraph) in unrelated work. Too many to list. I think this other-researcher had a better use: http://www.wrf.org/men-women-medicine/dr...s-burr.php Yet his work is forgotten and his book has become a rare collector's item. My main point being that the application of ohm meters in science run far and wide. So wide in fact that the Backster observation may yet support other conclusions altogether. (I won't bore you). Perhaps some humans possess strong energy fields, strong enough to change experimental results. The famous "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" comes to mind. Or outside of physics, the ancient concept of mind over matter. Or unawareness of personal power at a distance. So much to pick through and i would expect one will find countless effects which are not particularly replicable.

Zack, I would say that we are bonded to our family diets until we manage to develop an independence. Even as a young, independent adult, there are yet further bonds to overcome. Most commonly through debt bondages of various kinds. I myself could not develop my independence until age 18. After that there were several big bondages to free myself from. At the end of which i found myself somewhat isolated from popular conventions. It sounds as though you are finding good ways to proceed. After all it is indeed how we feel about it.

I'd go further to say experiments with plant feelings might be bonded to our own feelings.

[Oceania]

noone wants it to be true. otherwise we'd get plant peta.

---

we are bonded to our pets for life! they're family members.

[3DMonkey]

The poor pets, though. We make them all orphans, and none of their extended family is notified to come to the funeral

[Monica]

Since discovering the Law of One I absolutely hate eating meat

So your taste for meat changed after reading the Law of One? Interesting! Do you have any idea why? Was it something you read that made you change your thinking about meat, or did you just lose your taste for it around that time?

but I cannot help but eat it as I am 18 and still living at home and that is all my family ever eats.. Occasionally I try not to eat it and feel much better about myself. For I can now see and feel through extensive seeking and meditation how everything is one, thus I see an animal as the same as a human, they are all the one consciousness of the infinite creator experiencing itself infintitely.. When I don't eat it or say I don't really like meat they just laugh at me and think I am joking..

Zack, I know it's difficult to make personal decisions like that, when we're still dependent on others. You're not alone; lots of teenagers and even much younger kids make the choice to quit eating animals, but their families make it difficult for them.

Some of them are able to gain more control over their diets by earning $$ at part-time jobs and using that to buy the foods they want. Others just leave out the meat and eat everything else, which may or may not be healthy, depending on the selection of foods offered. As long as there are rice, beans, whole grains, eggs, and/or dairy offered once or twice a day, you shouldn't have any problem getting a fairly decent diet.

Perhaps the biggest hurdle to overcome is the ridicule from those you love. Keep in mind that it's usually based on ignorance. Many teens are able to gain more support by simply providing educational tools for their families, so that their families can get educated and put their minds at ease about whether their kids are getting enough protein, etc.

Here are some informational resources you might want to share with your family:

Some of these outline the nutritional concerns. These websites are mainstream sites, not PETA-based, just to show that, even among mainstream doctors, the veg. diet is considered not only acceptable for healthy for kids, with just a few precautions.

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/nutrition...diets.html

http://kidshealth.org/parent/nutrition_f...anism.html

http://www.drgreene.com/21_921.html

And here is another site with pix of lots of vegan children:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/realveganchildren/

Even if you aren't vegan, it's nice to know that even vegan kids are generally very healthy!

And this site has lots of info:

http://www.vrg.org/family/kidsindex.htm

There are also lots of books on the subject of veggie kids. My story is in one of them! (I got interviewed and she included it in the book.)

Basically, if you eats leafy greens, whole grains, legumes, and eggs & dairy, they're fine. If you want to go all the way vegan, that might be harder while living at home. If you do ever go vegan, be sure to take a B12 supplement. (That is the single nutrient not found in a vegan diet.) I would suggest not being too hard on yourself and just do what you can to make the best of your situation, until you become independent or gain the support, or at least tolerance, of your family. But you might just be pleasantly surprised, and your family become more supportive, once you educate them! Families often ridicule their vegetarian kids because they are concerned. Alleviate the concern and they are often more supportive.

I do feel a little better about it though after reading a channelling from Q'uo which stated that there is little impact on the spirit or beingness of an entity if it were of loving nature, they suggested that almost all karma and negativity can be taken out through sending love and light to the 2nd density creature which has passed though its incarnation and thanking it for passing and understanding the negativity it went though at the hands of another entity. Thus before I eat any meat I always have my hand over it (When no one is looking lol) I repeat this is my mind every time. "I thank this 2nd density creature for passing through it's incarnation, to bring sustenance to my body so that I am able to further develop my ways to the Law of One in service to other selves. I understand the fear it went though and send my love and light to it and thank it"

That's wonderful that you are blessing the meat and thanking the animal!

That particular Q'uo quote was discussed at length in this thread. I invite you to read the whole thread; you will find much to ponder.

In the meantime, I commend you for figuring it out much sooner than I did. I didn't become a vegetarian until I was 21, although I refused to eat any meat until age 10. But I didn't eat any veggies either so I can't really say I was a vegetarian.

---

If the dracaena plant reaction of Dr Backster were so important, i'm surprised no one has bothered to replicate the experiment or develop a related field of evidence. Such experiments can be performed at low cost. My assumption is that this is far too subjective for big-science and not really interesting beyond speculation.

There have been many bio-research applications for ohm-meters (like Backster's polygraph) in unrelated work. Too many to list. I think this other-researcher had a better use: http://www.wrf.org/men-women-medicine/dr...s-burr.php Yet his work is forgotten and his book has become a rare collector's item. My main point being that the application of ohm meters in science run far and wide. So wide in fact that the Backster observation may yet support other conclusions altogether. (I won't bore you). Perhaps some humans possess strong energy fields, strong enough to change experimental results. The famous "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" comes to mind. Or outside of physics, the ancient concept of mind over matter. Or unawareness of personal power at a distance. So much to pick through and i would expect one will find countless effects which are not particularly replicable.

...

I'd go further to say experiments with plant feelings might be bonded to our own feelings.

Well said! That is exactly my point too: The research is inconclusive and quite subject to interpretation. To use it to justify eating animals is faulty logic and flies in the face of everything we know about the plant-based diet, not the least of which is that plants heal.

[zack231]

Yes when ever I eat meat now I feel the negativity, I feel bad and it kind of makes me feel a little bit sick. Meat does not taste very nice to me any more..

[Oceania]

same here.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Well said! That is exactly my point too: The research is inconclusive and quite subject to interpretation. To use it to justify eating animals is faulty logic and flies in the face of everything we know about the plant-based diet, not the least of which is that plants heal.

Is a conclusive experiment necessary for us to know that plants, on some level, are aware of out intentions to eat them?

Also, is it even relevant?