In regards to eating meat

[3DMonkey]

Here is another video talking about Peta in general

The ending tells you how many animals they killed and how many they found homes for.

yea...

I "liked" this because it was funny. It was a comedy skit.

It's funny how someone, an organization, stands for something in theory, but continues the opposite in practice. Again, at the risk of being repetitive, you can't want to do something outside of society while you are still part of society.


It's a cycle.

[Pablísimo]

Taking out what they said about vegans feeling hungry all the time(they don't), i don't think this video was an inaccurate report of Peta principles.

Add the fact they are killing almost all animals they take for "their own good" sealed the deal for me.

I don't fully agree, but that's perfectly OK. Thank you for sharing your perspective with us, as every additional voice adds to the collective understanding. I don't think all they do is bad by any means, but there is truth to what you say. My wife works for the Humane Society and they talk about their no-kill policy and high adoption rate compared to PETA's pretty regularly. It was eye opening for me.... as I have living proof that higher adoption rates and no-kill are quite possible to do.

They don't want to help animals, they want to remove them from society all together in a vacuum as if we weren't sharing thousands of years of history.

I suspect some of them genuinely do want to help, but any human organization is comprised of people all over the spectrum. Some good, some bad, it's all part of being human.

I am for interrupting most of human caused animal suffering, with well fare treatment farms, less or no testing on animals for cosmetics and etc.

Then in that case you share important goals with many people here, both vegetarian and meat-eating alike. Let's build on this common ground! I think we can continue to seek common ground and work together even if we don't all see perfectly eye to eye. Well, as long as we remember to respect eachother and see the Creator in all beings, that is.

Thank you for your contributions and perspective today, and very best wishes to you!

Love to all

---

It's funny how someone, an organization, stands for something in theory, but continues the opposite in practice. Again, at the risk of being repetitive, you can't want to do something outside of society while you are still part of society.
It's a cycle.

Well, how do you change society?

I'm going with Ghandi's approach: "Be the change you want to see in the world."

Opting out of a societal practice doesn't mean you have to abandon society all together.

But you're right to remind us about the comedic factor. Sometimes when I forget to laugh, I miss the point

Love to all

[Monica]

Do you really think that they don't care at all? That it's that simple, that they simply can't extend compassion towards farm animals?...They may believe it's OK for humans to eat meat and perfectly acceptable, but I doubt very many believe the way that most meat animals are raised and slaughtered is acceptable from either a moral or a health standpoint. IF and once they become aware of the reality, that is.

I'm referring to when they reject any opportunity to become aware of the reality. They don't care enough to even become aware in the first place.

Does their approach really work? I think that in some ways, those shocking images do help raise awareness. There are times when even I have felt it appropriate to share those images. And yet I feel that PETA has given a bad name to a cause I believe in.

Definitely. It's a mixed bag.

When you make others feel guilty, angry, and defensive with your approach, then they aren't going to really HEAR your message. Most likely they'll shut down, block it out, or counter-attack.

Agreed. Which is why I never use that approach with anyone. The ads, though, are impersonal. It's not a person using those methods face-to-face. So they can do things with billboard ads that might not work face-to-face with a friend.

I suspect that it is precisely because of some of their ad campaigns that I run into people who explode about vegetarians and fanatical vegans all the time now.

Yeah. It happened numerous times here on this thread.

Throwing fake blood on people, destroying property and using almost terroristic tactics just isn't cool in my book, even if I do agree with them about meat eating in general. For me, PETA's means don't justify their ends.

For the record, I have stated multiple times that I strongly disagree with all vandalism methods. I had a (former) friend who accosted women with fur coats. She would go up to women in the grocery store and almost spit on them. She did the same thing to Christians and pro-lifers. She isn't a member of PETA. She's just a jerk. I went round and round with her countless times, to no avail. She just didn't get it. People like that really mess it up for the rest of us. People like that are found in various organizations. They're obnoxious but they're fringe. Unfortunately, people think they represent said organization when they don't.

Does PETA still do stuff like that? Do they endorse it, or are they just fringe members who give them a bad name? I hadn't heard about them doing stuff like that in recent years, so I thought it was a fringe group back in the 80s. Are you saying PETA officially endorses vandalism? Last I heard, they disavowed those things. But I haven't kept up with them so maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe I've been missing a lot of news about PETA, but to me, PETA means websites with good statistical info, good videos exposing the horrors of the meat industry, and catchy billboards.

It's very possible that, like many organizations, the organization itself has become corrupt, but there are still good, well-intentioned people participating in it, oblivious to the corruption.

Like a Christian mega-church asking for donations to help starving children, and thousands of people donate, and the pastor lives in a $10million home. Or like those cancer organizations...Apparently no organization is immune to corruption, unfortunately.

So in the past when I referred to PETA, I was referring to the genuine activists who do care about animals, who might not be represented by the organization by that name. I generally don't like even referring to organizations, because they so often are corrupt.

[Pablísimo]

I'm referring to when they reject any opportunity to become aware of the reality. They don't care enough to even become aware in the first place.

Ahh, ok, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying!

For the record, I have stated multiple times that I strongly disagree with all vandalism methods. I had a (former) friend who accosted women with fur coats. She would go up to women in the grocery store and almost spit on them. She did the same thing to Christians and pro-lifers. She isn't a member of PETA. She's just a jerk. I went round and round with her countless times, to no avail. She just didn't get it. People like that really mess it up for the rest of us. People like that are found in various organizations. They're fringe.

I'm glad you said that. The reason is that I have seen you make those statements multiple times on this thread. You made it very clear, it's a given for me that you don't support violent actions towards others and their property. But the thread is so long, it may be some of the folks reading now don't realize that, so I'm glad you pointed it out. Not that you should have to!

Never in a million years could I imagine you advocating vandalism or being a jerk like that about the fur coats.

Does PETA still do stuff like that? Do they endorse, it or are they just fringe members who give them a bad name? I hadn't heard about them doing stuff like that in recent years, so I thought it was a fringe group back in the 80s. Are you saying PETA officially endorses vandalism? Last I heard, they disavowed those things. But I haven't kept up with them so maybe I'm wrong.

No, I don't think it's officially sanctioned by PETA at all. I certainly don't want to misrepresent them, so thank you for calling me out on that. It is fringe members doing the vandalism from what I can tell, but I also think that it is representative of a certain "in your face" extreme mentality that seems prevalent in the material they produce. But I don't want to smear the whole organization by the actions of a few, just like the abortion bombings don't represent the majority of the pro-life camp. You're right to make a distinction.

Maybe I've been missing a lot of news about PETA, but to me, PETA means websites with good statistical info, good videos exposing the horrors of the meat industry, and catchy billboards.

The videos and statistical info you are referring to are the good things I see them doings. As for the billboards, I'm still not quite convinced that the shock value and guilt that they seem to produce in people is actually helping the cause.

We've talked briefly about this in the past, but I still really struggle to see the value in the more extreme ads. It may be that I can't see it because of how affected I am when around other people who are upset, plus the emotional reactions *I* have to those images. I prefer a gentler approach than the in your face ads and the guilt they seem to to provoke. But this may be my own distortions and bios -- my opinion is more a reflection of my own inner landscape than an objective analysis. It's still very hard for me to view those images. After all these years, it still gets to me.

Love to all

[Monica]

Never in a million years could I imagine you advocating vandalism or being a jerk like that about the fur coats.

As for the billboards, I'm still not quite convinced that the shock value and guilt that they seem to produce in people is actually helping the cause.

I wonder if they've ever done a cost/benefit analysis to see how effective those ads are, or if it would even be possible to do so. I remember reading many years ago about a pro-life campaign in which they sent a mailing with graphic images of aborted body parts to certain areas of a large city. They claimed that abortion rates plummeted for a certain period of time immediately following the mass mailing. I have no idea how accurate that was, of course, but it was interesting.

It's still very hard for me to view those images. After all these years, it still gets to me.

Oh me too! I get physically ill, sick to my stomach, and want to vomit. I'll have a headache for the rest of the day, and just feel overall very down, like a black cloud hanging over me. All for viewing 1 minute of a cow getting killed. I sometimes force myself to watch it, because I have to screen it before posting it somewhere. Like, I watched those 2 that I posted a few days ago. At great cost. My day is shot afterwards.

It's precisely because it does affect me so much, that I believe it's effective to others. How can anyone see it and not be affected?

The problem is, that most won't even watch it.

[3DMonkey]

And if I'm not affected?

[Pablísimo]

I wonder if they've ever done a cost/benefit analysis to see how effective those ads are, or if it would even be possible to do so. I remember reading many years ago about a pro-life campaign in which they sent a mailing with graphic images of aborted body parts to certain areas of a large city. They claimed that abortion rates plummeted for a certain period of time immediately following the mass mailing. I have no idea how accurate that was, of course, but it was interesting.

Good question. I wonder if it is possible. It would be interesting to see the effectiveness somehow empirically. I realized just now when writing the last message that I'm not the target audience for PETA! So maybe my bad reactions to their messages isn't the best indicator of their effectiveness in the wider world.

It's still very hard for me to view those images. After all these years, it still gets to me.

Oh me too! I get physically ill, sick to my stomach, and want to vomit. I'll have a headache for the rest of the day, and just feel overall very down, like a black cloud hanging over me. All for viewing 1 minute of a cow getting killed. I sometimes force myself to watch it, because I have to screen it before posting it somewhere. Like, I watched those 2 that I posted a few days ago. At great cost. My day is shot afterwards.

Thank you for speaking out and advocating. Having to review that stuff clearly takes a personal toll on you, and I know exactly how you feel. That you are willing to endure that to help raise awareness speaks volumes of your compassionate nature. That's a Buddha move, for sure.

It's precisely because it does affect me so much, that I believe it's effective to others. How can anyone see it and not be affected?

The problem is, that most won't even watch it.

I haven't thought about it like that before -- that my very reactions might be indicative of its effectiveness. But then, I'm not a meat eater so am I comparing apples to oranges? Hmmm.....I'll have to give this some more thought. You've given me something to ponder. Though I prefer a gentle approach, perhaps these images do play a positive role. It may be that we need a myriad of different groups and approaches to create positive change. I will give this some more thought.

Thank you again for helping me broaden my perspective and challenge my assumptions. It's good for all of us to question things we take for granted and old understandings.

Love to all

---

And if I'm not affected?

Then you are simply different than those who do. But so what? You're still a wonderful, beautiful aspect of the Creator who is far, far, far more than a dietary opinion. Your meat eating doesn't define you to me. When I look at you, I see a different and yet insightful, interesting, and loved Other-self.

So what if you don't have the same reaction? I can respect that.

But I do have a very strong emotional reaction to those images. I hope that my perspective can be respected as well.

Agreement is in no way necessary for mutual respect and understanding.

Love to all

[yossarian]

I don't know what the discussion is about anymore. It is reinforcing my opinion that you can't think about thought without being thought because you are thinking. You can't discuss a discussion without being part of the discussion you are discussing.

and this drives your fatalism?

epistemology is well worn territory. Yes, it's hard to think about thought but it can be done and a level of clarity can be found.

The nature of our lives is subjective and this issue applies to every aspect of our existence. The subjective perspective--our perspective--is valuable for itself, regardless of it's bearing on objective phenomenon. This is precisely what I was getting at in your last post when you quoted Ra. You have this skeptical fatalism that nothing can be known and therefore we shouldn't think. I have the same skeptical fatalism but I value thinking for its own sake, as just another way of self-expression, just another way of living, and especially as a way to grow into The Creator.

You betray yourself as an extroverted thinker with this comment. Why do you devalue your own subjective experience? It is your subjective experience that is the essence of spirituality.

Whether someone values their own subjective experience is, in my opinion, a core question of self-esteem. No subjective experience can ever be conclusively proven to be of value through objective methods. This causes some people to devalue their experience and have low self-esteem. It causes others to embrace life and recognize that their life, if it's unprovable, is also unshackled with respect to outside restraints.

This realization by you 3Dmonkey can be seen as the ultimate freedom or the ultimate prison. It's liberating if you value your subjective experience, and imprisonining and life-stifling if you only value the objective.

[3DMonkey]

I don't know what you are saying. I don't know where you picked my value levels.

I'm guessing that you find "fatalism" pessimistic. (did I have this conversation in an Azrael thread?).

I actually find more value in finally understanding that things like channeling, extraterrestrials, remote viewing, near death experiences, ghosts, and afterlife are conceptual thinking relevant only to the "now". For me, it empowers my "Creating" ability. It is the meditations/energy center/aura-type beliefs that hindered me. That stuff isn't real, but occasionally using them as real has a use. They are tools for thought, not something to be discovered "finally".

---

Your meat eating doesn't define you to me. When I look at you, I see a different and yet insightful, interesting, and loved Other-self.

So what if you don't have the same reaction? I can respect that.

Thank you. That's nice to finally hear. You are the first to say that in this thread. I've been hit head first that I'm not allowed to be loved and proceed to overlook video footage.

[Monica]

I've been hit head first that I'm not allowed to be loved and proceed to overlook video footage.

That's an interpretation. No one ever told you that.

But, for the record, overlooking video footage (as in, choosing to not watch it) isn't the same thing as watching it and not being affected by it. Those are 2 different things.

[3DMonkey]

That's an interpretation.

A popular one.

[Pablísimo]

Thank you. That's nice to finally hear. You are the first to say that in this thread. I've been hit head first that I'm not allowed to be loved and proceed to overlook video footage.

You're quite welcome, and I sincerely, sincerely meant every word of it.

In fact, I say again:
"Your meat eating doesn't define you to me. When I look at you, I see a different and yet insightful, interesting, and loved Other-self. So what if you don't have the same reaction? I can respect that."

...and for the record, you are absolutely allowed to be loved, are worthy of love, and ARE LOVED no matter what you eat nor how you react to a video.

Oh Monkey, I'm sorry for any hurt or pain you have experienced from this thread. I apologize to you for anything unkind or judgemental we have have written. When you express words that you feel unloved here, that saddens me, for I want to help make this forum into a safe space to discuss anything amongst equal siblings and without judgement. I send my sincerest good wishes and love to you. May we all heal from any wounds we picked up from this conversation.

I have no right to demand anything of you, but I am truly asking for your compassion for us. Sometimes we get very passionate when talking about animal rights because we feel their plight so deeply. Sometimes we get so caught up in advocating for our animal other-selves that we end up alienating our human other-selves. We aren't perfect. But the intention was never to make you feel unloved, judged, or rejected. Even if our execution wasn't done so well, our intentions were good.

That's an interpretation. No one ever told you that.

But, for the record, overlooking video footage (as in, choosing to not watch it) isn't the same thing as watching it and not being affected by it. Those are 2 different things.

Although I think Monkey has some justification for the hurt feelings, your comment here is absolutely true. I just have to recognize this -- I've read every single post in this thread and nowhere have I seen you or anyone else say that he is not loved or allowed to be loved. I've seen you trying to argue the vegetarian perspective the best you can, but certainly not going around telling people they are not worthy of love!

However, he clearly feels some hurt and insult, and we bear some responsibility for that as well as him. Some of it is subjective and internal to him, of course, but some of it is not. You have been unfairly and publicly accused of many things recently, and much of it has been completely unjustified and unfair. But yet you also have had your weak moments in all of this, too, where you responded to other-selves in a less than kind fashion than when you are truly centered. Those moments happened, and he obviously remembers them. We all bear partial responsibility for the conflicts we find ourselves in, and I myself helped create this mess. I certainly have no right to demand anything of you, especially considering how tirelessly and compassionately you've advocated for a cause I dearly believe in. But I ask you for more compassion for those here who do feel wronged, judged, and hurt. I don't mean to imply you haven't been compassionate, because you have. I'm going on a limb and asking you for even MORE compassion, peacemaking and kindness than you normally display. I'm asking you to help me see the Creator in everyone who has ever posted in this thread. I could use some help staying centered myself. Maybe we can all help eachother remember to see one another as the Creator as we discuss this volatile topic.

@Everyone
If we are to ever have any hope of getting the discussion back on track and constructive, we're going to have to mend some fences. It doesn't matter who caused the damage in the first place, let's remember who we are and what we are. We are One. We are all Brothers & Sisters, no matter what we eat!! Let's act like it!

In forgiveness lies the stoppage of the wheel of karma.

queue Braveheart music...Are ye with me, friends?!?!?!?

Love to all

[Shemaya]

@Everyone
If we are to ever have any hope of getting the discussion back on track and constructive, we're going to have to mend some fences. It doesn't matter who caused the damage in the first place, let's remember who we are and what we are. We are One. We are all Brothers & Sisters, no matter what we eat!! Let's act like it!

In forgiveness lies the stoppage of the wheel of karma.

queue Braveheart music...Are ye with me, friends?!?!?!?

Love to all

Thank you Pablismo... I appreciate your gentle compassionate way of communicating. I read your posts, and your words are unifying and uplifting and help me to remember who I am.

Forgiveness, very good advice. A song is is playing right now and just after I wrote that, I heard this lyric played:

Forgiveness is the chorus
Of our rebel song
And we belong (we belong...)

Cause I got my white flag wavin’ in
At midnight it’s alright
(We belong...)
Dave Barnes, White Flag 2012

Funny how synchronicity works. I got my white flag waving

[Pablísimo]

Thank you Pablismo... I appreciate your gentle compassionate way of communicating. I read your posts, and your words are unifying and uplifting and help me to remember who I am.

Aww, shucks. Thank YOU for adding your love and positive energy into this moment!! We need all of us to turn this around.

Forgiveness, very good advice. A song is is playing right now and just after I wrote that, I heard this lyric played:
Dave Barnes, White Flag 2012

Hey! Cool tune!! I had never heard this before, thanks for sharing your synchronicity. How pretty..and timely!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cpz4qXF3Q

Funny how synchronicity works. I got my white flag waving

Got room for one more? I want to wave mine as well! If enough of us do this, together we'll make a great sail that can carry us into calmer waters of mutual understanding.

Since you've already provided some great music for the trip, I'll add mine. Here's my favorite song on forgiveness. It's Ashana -- an awesome human being -- and I have absolutely no idea (nor care) what she ate the day she composed this beauty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCFrf2TZpVE

The sign of awaking
When all is forgiven

Music in the silence
Sweetness in the heart
They shall come together
That once were drawn apart
Beauty all around us
Beauty deep within
The sign of awakening
When all is forgiven
Ashana, When All Is Forgiven

Namaste, dear sister.

Love to all

[Ankh]

Do you really think that they don't care at all? That it's that simple, that they simply can't extend compassion towards farm animals? You could well be right, but that feels pretty bleak to me. I suspect the resistance from them is a complex blend of causes.

I've found that many meat eaters really just don't understand the actual living conditions that factory-farmed animals are raised under. We are insulated and isolated from that reality by shopping for little circles and squares of meat at the grocery store and restaurants. It's not like the fast food industry goes out of their way to show us how they can manage to produce all those burgers that get sold for $1 a piece. When the conversation is not accusatory or judgemental of themselves as people, I've found meat eaters to be usually very receptive to the idea of improving their conditions and reducing the suffering. They may believe it's OK for humans to eat meat and perfectly acceptable, but I doubt very many believe the way that most meat animals are raised and slaughtered is acceptable from either a moral or a health standpoint. IF and once they become aware of the reality, that is.

... ... ...

This is one of those other complex reasons that I referred to. We are all subject to very strong cultural programming and bias. It's very difficult to question ANY commonly accepted societal norm, and the second anyone steps outside of the 'normal social paradigm', about any topic, they encounter fierce resistance from those still within that paradigm. I know I have had to do an enormous amount of work on myself over the years to de-program the crap I've picked up from movies, society, religion, politicians, etc. So it's not so difficult to me to extend some compassion in this space. However, I think really people are only going to change of their own accord and free will. We can plant seeds, gently try to raise awareness, be an example, but ultimately no amount of convincing or cajoling is going to change others behavior if they don't agree. So I'm trying to create a loving and non-judgemental atmosphere to discuss what is basically a painful topic for everyone, and respect other people's processes and free will to make up their own mind.

... ... ...

Does their approach really work? I think that in some ways, those shocking images do help raise awareness. There are times when even I have felt it appropriate to share those images. And yet I feel that PETA has given a bad name to a cause I believe in. They are using guilt, controversy, and shame on many occasions to get their point across. I think this judgemental, full on frontal attack approach that they take is detrimental to raising awareness. When you make others feel guilty, angry, and defensive with your approach, then they aren't going to really HEAR your message. Most likely they'll shut down, block it out, or counter-attack. I suspect that it is precisely because of some of their ad campaigns that I run into people who explode about vegetarians and fanatical vegans all the time now.

Yes, I believe people should explore any feelings of guilt they have and convert it into positive action. But continually trying to make others feel guilty and shove their ads down people's throats doesn't seem to have the impact that we really want -- which is awareness and more humane treatment of our younger Brothers & Sisters.

Throwing fake blood on people, destroying property and using almost terroristic tactics just isn't cool in my book, even if I do agree with them about meat eating in general. For me, PETA's means don't justify their ends.

... ... ...

I would combine this though with other "resistance factors" such as memories of Grandma's home cookin', some degree of social ostracizing, the idea they would have to give up things that they really enjoy the taste of, all the practical concerns, the social conditioning, and then the plain old guilt that some of them feel and don't want to face.

All this forms a complex tapestry of resistance, and I can really understand why. So for me, I want to use a gentle approach. I also have to be careful not to see people as just one thing and separate myself. It's not a fair spiritual litmus test, it is just one issue among many. People are complex, and I've known many meat eaters who are absolutely wonderful people. The animal suffering situation on this planet is appalling, but there are many other dynamics going on and we are all working on our evolution and processing complex catalyst that are not related to diet. Life is so hard here, in this crazy 3D world, I have to cut everybody some slack. We're all evolving in our own ways, and I am well aware that I don't have perfect understanding. Thus, non-judgement of the PEOPLE eating meat and a gentler approach works best for me.

Because these conversations get so charged and polarizing, I think it behooves those of us who are advocating change to go the extra mile and strive to be compassionate, considerate, and respectful to those who don't agree with us on this issue.

It is the "in your face" technique that I find difficult to accept. The analogy that came into my mind is someone walking up to a young fruit tree and start shaking it, yelling: "C'mon, tree! Give me those apples" when it's not yet ready to bear fruits. It is disrespectful and infringing. 3DMonkey raised a good point, which translated into my own understanding, was that strong conviction makes one to go "blind", not seeing the whole picture. Think about how each mind/body/spirit complex consists of mind complexes, body complexes, and spirit complex, which are *veiled*, i.e. not seen to the self (and even less to another third density self). Add to that the societal/cultural mind complexes, and what not more. So the life that each intelligence is living, is indeed so complex that not even the self living that life is clear about what is what. There is great confusion! So with all these things that are not seen to us, we are supposed to learn love. That's simply it.

So what I am trying to say is that, coming up to someone with "in your face" technique about issues that one has a strong conviction about is disrespectful and infringing. And I need to learn that even these people, as much as I am myself, do not have a clear picture and it's ok too. I guess that I just personally need to learn to accept that when I see it, and that I currently have difficulties with that.

You raised another point which I found interesting when you mentioned "Grandma's cooking", and that is when I go to visit someone for dinner, for instance family, relatives or friends who are not vegetarian. When there is no other alternatives than the meat at that dinner party, and people knowing that you are vegetarian, they ask you oftentimes what you would like to eat. Since I've been vegetarian for many years, that has happened to me in the past, for many years. I re-evaluate these experiences today, and think that when/if I become vegetarian again, I will not announce it to anyone. When going to these parties in the future, I will eat what they have to offer, but perhaps will eat less of the meat offered. I don't want it to become a thing of giving my near and dear problems, i.e. more work. It doesn't have to be complicated, as the life in third density already is. And it doesn't have to become "all or nothing" thing for me personally either.

Another thing is the "waste" that I find of importance when considering these issues. Since the meat is already prepared for many to eat, I'd rather take a little taste of this dish, instead of forcing others to buy (=adds to consuming) and prepare (adds to more work for another self) in order for me to eat that other dish.

That makes my mind to slide into another issue, which is the poisining and polluting of our environment. All that is done to the soil and the air when we grow our grains, fruits, vegetables etc. Where does this product come from? I've read about great amounts of grain and other products that are wasted and thrown away in some countries. Many countries are completely inconsiderate about how they grow their grains, vegetables and fruits in regards to the environment. Also, the transportations of these products that are in our grocery stores is something that is of importance for me personally. The longer this product has to travel to reach my local grocery story, the more it adds to the pollution of this already burdened planet.

Another issue is, while the slaughter of the animals is a topic by itself, which I will not go into, it is how these animals are kept that is an issue for me. Whether cows and chickens are kept to be slaughtered or for their milk and eggs, it is how they are kept that is important for me personally.

In Sweden, we have something that is called "ecological", and I think that in US it is called "organic", but I am not sure. What an ecological product means is that this product is made with an outmost consideration for the environment and the animal producing it. For me it is of no difference whether one eats the chicken or it's egg, if that chicken is held in a minimal cage causing that animal great suffering and pain, and the same goes with cows and all other animals. I even think that sometimes it is better that this animal is slaughtered perhaps, instead of kept alive it's whole life in these conditions for what it is producing, like eggs and milk.

All these things are of personal consideration to me, but should I load others, when they are not interested, with all that, and especially using "in your face" technique? I do what I can in choices like foodstuff I buy, or by supporting organisations involved in these issues, such as Greenpeace, WWF etc. And someone else does more than that. I guess that I just need to find acceptance even for those using "in your face" approach, whether this approach regard food choices, spiritual growth or something else.

[yossarian]

I don't know what you are saying. I don't know where you picked my value levels.

I'm guessing that you find "fatalism" pessimistic. (did I have this conversation in an Azrael thread?).

I've read your posts for years. I guess understanding my last post requires a bunch of background info on the various words I'm using.

You are often a critic of convictions of any sort, and basically present yourself as a kind of Socrates. Whenever someone has a conviction, you come by and say something along the lines of "we can never really know anything." This is philosophically called "skepticism" and I think it's a powerful philosophy.

So out of everyone on this forum I would say your communications display the most skepticism.

You often seem to say things that are nonsensical intentionally--stuff that doesn't make logical sense or that is absurd intended to point out people's blind spots or to get people to think outside the box.

In my opinion, skeptics often get stuck in a kind of intellectual and moral tarpit where nothing is true and nothing can be known and, in a way, nothing exists or really matters.

A question that is extremely relevant to this kind of skeptic is their relationship to the objective world and to the subjective world.

The subjective world is stuff that is highly personal and cannot be verified by other people. This is who you are as a consciousness and how you experience the world directly. This experience can be described but can never really be shared, at least not in normal human life.

The objective world is stuff that you identify as outside yourself.

Skeptics tend to place low value on the subjective and believe that the subjective should NOT be a guide for action. I'm interested in this question... just because the subjective is not objective why should it not be used as a guide to action? That's sort of the question I was trying to ask you.

[Shemaya]

Thanks for clarifying your stance about the language. Those words are healing. I hope what I say here comes out correctly as my intentions are not to hurt but heal only...

You may be surprised to know that I am a vegetarian (OK, may be not a 100% and purist in that sense but a close 95%). My entire family is vegetarian, they are pure 100% text book vegetarian (well some of them eat eggs occasionally)



I got engaged in this conversation when I noticed the hyper tone and some graphic language. That alarmed me as I sensed it might be creating guilt in some people's mind. It is easy to feel guilty and our lives are full of guilt. We don't need another reason to feel guilty or even look down upon from someone else. I can now understand that was not your intention but it was my perception. Personally I did not feel guilty as I know my heart and it has respect and love for all beings humans, animals and plants alike. They all have that spark of one infinite creator.

I also noticed to my chagrin that our engagement was very debate like which I was trying to avoid. Debate is not my style. I take a topic in and explore my heart and express whatever comes out. I am not into rebuttals or counter points. I also want to experience other person's expression from the heart not a mental back and forth. But that is just me and it does not have to be that way. Just helps you to understand where I am coming from. Personally I could care less what people eat. I think and believe that a predominantly vegetarian diet is healthy and healing. But I would never want to force it upon others. Let it be a choice. I am totally supportive of education of benefits of vegetarian diet that does not create a sense of guilt in people's mind.

The other day during my meditation, I realize that all strength comes from the heart, that was a new revelation to me. I think this whole process of discussing, disagreeing, falling apart and now coming together has its own rhythm and its own beauty. I cherish all of us here and what we are becoming together. We are not perfect and get drawn into drama and I am as guilty of that as anybody else. But we all strive to be our higher self and be as much loving as we can be, however imperfect we are. we come back and try to fix it.

I sincerely think that all of us have taken this opportunity/catalyst and used it not as a roadblock but as a stepping stone to soar higher in understanding and love... And I thank all of you for that

Wow, reading back some old posts from 2 years ago.... Can totally relate to what the fool wrote here, and it seems things have not changed much in 2 years on this thread.

Maybe the time to change is now.

[3DMonkey]

I don't know what you are saying. I don't know where you picked my value levels.

I'm guessing that you find "fatalism" pessimistic. (did I have this conversation in an Azrael thread?).

I've read your posts for years. I guess understanding my last post requires a bunch of background info on the various words I'm using.

You are often a critic of convictions of any sort, and basically present yourself as a kind of Socrates. Whenever someone has a conviction, you come by and say something along the lines of "we can never really know anything." This is philosophically called "skepticism" and I think it's a powerful philosophy.

So out of everyone on this forum I would say your communications display the most skepticism.

You often seem to say things that are nonsensical intentionally--stuff that doesn't make logical sense or that is absurd intended to point out people's blind spots or to get people to think outside the box.

In my opinion, skeptics often get stuck in a kind of intellectual and moral tarpit where nothing is true and nothing can be known and, in a way, nothing exists or really matters.

A question that is extremely relevant to this kind of skeptic is their relationship to the objective world and to the subjective world.

The subjective world is stuff that is highly personal and cannot be verified by other people. This is who you are as a consciousness and how you experience the world directly. This experience can be described but can never really be shared, at least not in normal human life.

The objective world is stuff that you identify as outside yourself.

Skeptics tend to place low value on the subjective and believe that the subjective should NOT be a guide for action. I'm interested in this question... just because the subjective is not objective why should it not be used as a guide to action? That's sort of the question I was trying to ask you.

Here I was, thinking nobody understood me


I don't think objectivity exists.

Whatever you see behind my demeanor, I don't know. My subjective desire is to have all others' subjectivity accepted/allowed/respected. So, what it seems you see in me as "nothing matters", I see as "you do you, I'm going to do me". And, yes, I realize I'm doing the exact same thing. I can't help it because it is inescapable.

[yossarian]

I don't think objectivity exists.

Whatever you see behind my demeanor, I don't know. My subjective desire is to have all others' subjectivity accepted/allowed/respected. So, what it seems you see in me as "nothing matters", I see as "you do you, I'm going to do me". And, yes, I realize I'm doing the exact same thing. I can't help it because it is inescapable.

So intellectually you are a good skeptic, you're doing a good job.

But what I perceive is that this belief has lead to a kind of fatalism and passivity. Why should this lead to passivity? Why not furious action toward a cause? It's all the same anyway isn't it?

Since objectivity doesn't exist and subjectivity is inescapable, why constantly bring it up? Why not just revel in it like a pig in the mud? Why not embrace it and go and conquer the world instead of constantly mentioning how objectivity doesn't exist?

I believe a passive skeptic who mentions his skepticism constantly is fighting against his skepticism. It sounds to me like the question about how nothing can be known is interesting enough to you that most of your posts deal with it in some way. A skeptic who was more thoroughly convinced of skepticism, on the other hand, would probably just follow convention and be a conventional pleasure seeker.

Maybe you do do this but I've also noticed a lot more philosophizing and reflection from you and to me this indicates some kind of turmoil and some kind of discontent with the passivity of the skeptical attitude.

It's interesting that, intellectually, skepticism would seem to say there is no objective truth, and yet in practice skeptics reject their own subjectivity by not following it. So you might have a subjective impulse saying chakras have colors or something but a skeptic kills the impulse using skeptical thought and returns to passivity. But why kill the impulse? Why not just run with it since skepticism says it basically doesnt really matter what you do?

I think the reason skeptics don't run with it is because they aren't deeply emotionally convinced of their skepticism. On some level the skepticism is an expression of the emotions associated with rebellion and apathy rather than simply an intellectual philosophy.

[norral]

yossarian

i want to apologize for freaking out before. i read something i didnt look into it and i immediately assumed the worst. my wrong. and i feel that i caused u pain which i feel terrible about. wont happen again. it was just plain dumb if i saw something i didnt like or didnt understand i could have pm' u for a clarification which would have been a much better way to do it. i hope u can accept my apology and i hope i can learn something from it for the future. i am an emotional person and sometimes i speak before i think

norral

[Pablísimo]

Hi Ankh!

It is the "in your face" technique that I find difficult to accept. The analogy that came into my mind is someone walking up to a young fruit tree and start shaking it, yelling: "C'mon, tree! Give me those apples" when it's not yet ready to bear fruits. It is disrespectful and infringing.

So what I am trying to say is that, coming up to someone with "in your face" technique about issues that one has a strong conviction about is disrespectful and infringing. And I need to learn that even these people, as much as I am myself, do not have a clear picture and it's ok too. I guess that I just personally need to learn to accept that when I see it, and that I currently have difficulties with that.

That's a good analogy, and I think we could apply it to other situations, too, such as someone knocking on doors with religious pamphlets. I really am conflicted right now on whether PETA's "in your face" images are actually helping or hurting the cause. It may be that it's causing people to shut down and block out the message. I do think people are going to evolve in their own good time, and we shouldn't force anyone to change. I think that they do it because they so acutely feel the suffering of so many animals, and they want to "shock" people out of their "slumber" (as they see it). I am not convinced this does any good at all, though it is something I'm currently meditating on. In any case, at their core they are motivated by concern for other beings, which I can understand and even admire, no matter what I think of their tactics.

However, the billboards are, to me, a very different context than right here. I am curious about what you think in the context of this forum. I've observed alot of posts by vegetarians on this thread that are VERY direct and biased towards the vegetarian view. I've also seen alot of posts by meat eaters that are VERY direct and biased towards a meat-eating view. This is what I would expect in a discussion thread about a topic where people do not agree, and in fact is what I find value in. By participating here, I have had my perspective broadened by people who disagree with me on diet and I am as a result less judgemental and more compassionate. I've also had some of my views strengthened and expanded by people on this thread who DO agree with me.

Basically, I consider this an appropriate place for vegetarians and meat eaters alike to discuss and debate our biased views. I look at it as an "OPT-IN" situation because no'one is forced to read the thread who does not wish to participate, which is different than billboards that you drive past and see without intentionally seeking it out.

What are your views on that? Do you consider posts from vegetarians who strongly, strongly, advocate their position and argue against the meat eating position to be too "in your face"? Or do you see a distinction between a conversation in this discussion forum and, say, the PETA billboards? Honestly, I think this thread may well be one of the very few places where it is perfectly acceptable to strongly convey our own views. I feel it is best done with the understanding that we must respect eachother we are all distorted/biased, and that we may not ultimately agree, but here seems like the right place to do it.

I"d just like to state for the record, since there has been so much tension, that I don't ask that question to trap you, and whatever your answer is, I will respect it. I just honestly have been perplexed why some people seem to resent that those with a different view are arguing their case here. I thought this was the whole point of a specific thread for this contentious, yet important, topic and my confusion is genuine.

3DMonkey raised a good point, which translated into my own understanding, was that strong conviction makes one to go "blind", not seeing the whole picture. Think about how each mind/body/spirit complex consists of mind complexes, body complexes, and spirit complex, which are *veiled*, i.e. not seen to the self (and even less to another third density self). Add to that the societal/cultural mind complexes, and what not more. So the life that each intelligence is living, is indeed so complex that not even the self living that life is clear about what is what. There is great confusion! So with all these things that are not seen to us, we are supposed to learn love. That's simply it.

I think there is great truth in this as well. We absolutely do not have the full picture nor perfect understanding. We are indeed supposed to be learning love here with the veil in place. This understanding is precisely WHY I don't feel it is appropriate to judge other people for their dietary choices. I don't have the full picture. Of course, neither do THEY, but the fact remains I am behind the veil and a bit of humility is in order. I also think the love I feel for my human Other-selves is more important than any disagreement with them about dietary issues.

For me, though, advocating for animal rights is part of my growth process. I see animals as Other-Selves, and right now there is a vast system of suffering and cruelty in place on earth to raise meat that I don't believe is necessary. I "hear" this dull throbbing scream in the ether from millions of other beings, and it affects me. It could be my own internal distortions, of course, but this is who I am and this is how I feel about it. I don't expect agreement about my views, but I hope that understanding of where I am coming from is at least possible.

In a way, I think that if we condone the control, exploitation, and mistreatment of lower density beings, that we are saying to the universe, metaphysically, that we invite higher density beings to control, exploit, and mistreat *US*. Wouldn't that be fair, after all, and isn't karma a real thing? It's only my opinion and certainly not Eternal Truth, but it seems to me that the extreme level of suffering in the meat animal population is having a negative effect on the consciousness of everyone on the planet, adding human suffering (though of a milder sort) to the general flow of animal suffering. Now that I'm aware of what's going on with meat production on this planet, I find I want to do something constructive about it. The most important action I have taken in this regard is to "opt-out" of the system and no longer add to the demand for it. A secondary thing I can do is to try to raise some awareness about the issue. The challenge is how to do that in a way that honors both my convictions and the free-will and perspectives of human Other-Selves who don't agree.

The only thing I can ask for is patience as we all struggle with this balance.

You raised another point which I found interesting when you mentioned "Grandma's cooking", and that is when I go to visit someone for dinner, for instance family, relatives or friends who are not vegetarian. When there is no other alternatives than the meat at that dinner party, and people knowing that you are vegetarian, they ask you oftentimes what you would like to eat. Since I've been vegetarian for many years, that has happened to me in the past, for many years. I re-evaluate these experiences today, and think that when/if I become vegetarian again, I will not announce it to anyone. When going to these parties in the future, I will eat what they have to offer, but perhaps will eat less of the meat offered. I don't want it to become a thing of giving my near and dear problems, i.e. more work. It doesn't have to be complicated, as the life in third density already is. And it doesn't have to become "all or nothing" thing for me personally either.

I can completely respect this approach. We are all unique and have different life circumstances and social pressures. I have no right to judge your method of dealing with the situation and do not cast any blame towards you.

However, since this is a discussion forum, I would like to share how I handle those things.... because that is what I think we are doing here, sharing perspectives and gently debating with love and respect underpinning the conversation.

What I do when I'm going to a function where the majority of food is meat-based is simply eat something before I go. That way, I'm not too hungry and can just nibble on whatever bread or fruit or whatever small thing there is to eat. Another thing I do is carry some 'emergency snacks' with me in case some situation happens unexpectedly. For me, it's more about opting-out of the system as much as I am able and not stimulating demand. I actually think there is value in being an example for other people. I would never push my dietary views on someone else, especially at a family function, but I see just generally being a nice person who happens to not eat meat as HELPING the cause. People notice and it might prompt them to do some research and investigate how they feel about the topic. Maybe it's my own distortions again, I never claimed to be unbiased, but this is a positive way to be, I feel.

Another thing is the "waste" that I find of importance when considering these issues. Since the meat is already prepared for many to eat, I'd rather take a little taste of this dish, instead of forcing others to buy (=adds to consuming) and prepare (adds to more work for another self) in order for me to eat that other dish.

Here again, I can completely respect that perspective. This sounds to me like you're thinking of the Other-self here and avoiding them buying more and doing more work. How could I possibly see this as a negative? I don't!

But even in this space, I have a different perspective. I feel that when I ingest meat, I'm polluting my bodily temple. I understand that this is my unique and subjective impression, and I don't claim it to be objective truth, but it is honestly how I feel. So, for me to ingest meat to avoid the other person buying and working more does not honor myself. That slides from STO behavior into martyrdom -- FOR ME. Given these personal factors, I opt instead to eat first and not ask the other person to buy or prepare anything special or extra. I don't belittle your perspective, here I merely share my own.

That makes my mind to slide into another issue, which is the poisining and polluting of our environment. All that is done to the soil and the air when we grow our grains, fruits, vegetables etc. Where does this product come from? I've read about great amounts of grain and other products that are wasted and thrown away in some countries. Many countries are completely inconsiderate about how they grow their grains, vegetables and fruits in regards to the environment. Also, the transportations of these products that are in our grocery stores is something that is of importance for me personally. The longer this product has to travel to reach my local grocery story, the more it adds to the pollution of this already burdened planet.

I completely agree, 100% here, I really do!!! The only thing I"d add to it is that meat is often handled the same way -- where it is shipped thousands of miles/kilometers from where the animals were raised. I am a big supporter of local food, and I think this is yet another area of common ground for vegetarians and meat eaters alike. No matter what we choose to eat, we all share the same environment and it is time we started thinking about these issues you have most eloquently described.

Another issue is, while the slaughter of the animals is a topic by itself, which I will not go into, it is how these animals are kept that is an issue for me. Whether cows and chickens are kept to be slaughtered or for their milk and eggs, it is how they are kept that is important for me personally.

Ankh, I'm glad you brought this point up. I'll be completely honest with you: I don't think even the killing of animals is acceptable TO ME, but I am 100000% percent more concerned about how they are kept PRIOR to slaughter. The majority of the misery happens before the moment of death. This is an area where I think meat eaters and vegetarians can really come together. We vegetarians may not think that eating animals at all is necessary, and meat eaters may never decide that there is anything wrong with eating them. HOWEVER, I think we can all agree that these meat -- and egg -- and dairy -- and honey, etc -- animals need to be kept under better conditions. Supporting local farmers like Austin, if one still eats meat, seems to me the best choice to make. I won't go so far as to say it's the ONLY, or even the BEST choice, in my opinion, but I think it is FAR FAR FAR BETTER than buying meat from factory farms where the animals are kept in appalling conditions. Seriously, there is some common ground here that we can work towards. It's a continuum.

In Sweden, we have something that is called "ecological", and I think that in US it is called "organic", but I am not sure. What an ecological product means is that this product is made with an outmost consideration for the environment and the animal producing it. For me it is of no difference whether one eats the chicken or it's egg, if that chicken is held in a minimal cage causing that animal great suffering and pain, and the same goes with cows and all other animals. I even think that sometimes it is better that this animal is slaughtered perhaps, instead of kept alive it's whole life in these conditions for what it is producing, like eggs and milk.

Alas, I have never been to fair Sweden, but I hope to make it there one day. So, I can't comment on the specific term, but I have encountered the term "biological" in other countries in Northern (Well, NW) Europe, such as Holland & Germany. Perhaps that is what you mean? Or maybe "ecological" is another class altogether. I'm really not sure, but both the US "organic" term and European "biological" term mean basically the same thing. It is a statement that no chemicals, pesticides, antibiotics and growth hormones were used during the production of that food item (Be it meat or vegetables). Unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily tell you anything about how the animals were kept. In my experience in investigating this, you find a mix. Some producers do treat their animals with great care and respect under the "biological/organic" label, but sadly many others treat them the same as any other factory farm -- which is living hell -- they just don't use the antibiotics and chemicals. This is only marginally better. So, if you are seeking more ethical sources for your meat, I would just advocate investigating the companies you buy from. Better yet, buy local and visit the farm so you can see exactly how the animals are raised. Now, "ecological" may actually come with humane treatment, I don't really know. If it does, then that label should be far more reliable for you. Unfortunately I'm just not that familiar with how things work in Sweden, so don't know the nuances of the term in your local context.

All these things are of personal consideration to me, but should I load others, when they are not interested, with all that, and especially using "in your face" technique? I do what I can in choices like foodstuff I buy, or by supporting organisations involved in these issues, such as Greenpeace, WWF etc. And someone else does more than that. I guess that I just need to find acceptance even for those using "in your face" approach, whether this approach regard food choices, spiritual growth or something else.

Sister, I think I share your struggle with this. If there is one thing that pushes my buttons, it's people forcing their views on another. We had a new member who in the past spent alot of time pressing his views on others in a hundred different threads, and I really struggled with acceptance there. I had to pray and meditate on him daily for weeks before I finally got some balance and clarity, and love returned.

I'm really working on this right now, so maybe I can share some insight that will help you with your own journey of acceptance. When it comes to these PETA billboards and "in your face" vegetarian approaches, what's underpinning that attitude is concern for the animals. Maybe it's unbalanced, off-center and subjective, but it feels so acute to them. They just hear this ethereal screaming from the abuse of so many, many beings that sometimes they go completely crazy trying to do something about it. This empathy is real, almost physical, and it's hard to ignore. Years ago, I said some things to meat eaters that were really unfair and unkind. I literally felt like meat consumers were supporting the systematic exploitation, torture and murder of my little brothers and sisters. It's not fair our reasonable -- but sometimes emotional reactions aren't logical. It took some growing up and spiritual evolution for me to find a balanced view and more fully integrate compassion for human Other-selves as well as animal Other-selves. I doesn't justify my or their behavior, but may help you to forgive it. I hope so anyway.

Love to all

---

yossarian

i want to apologize for freaking out before.
norral

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cpz4qXF3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCFrf2TZpVE


Love to all

[3DMonkey]

Turmoil is with life in general. Ups and downs. I'm thankful to put them here intellectually. It helps.


Activity is all in family. There is my treasure. There is my effort. There is my energy.

[zenmaster]

I believe a passive skeptic who mentions his skepticism constantly is fighting against his skepticism.

And necessarily projecting while that aspect of self is sought. Same thing with the zealot or any condition of imbalance. Unfortunately, these people vote.

[3DMonkey]

I believe a passive skeptic who mentions his skepticism constantly is fighting against his skepticism.

And necessarily projecting while that aspect of self is sought. Same thing with the zealot or any condition of imbalance. Unfortunately, these people vote.

?? They do? Why would a passive skeptic bother to vote?

I don't think a vote counts one bit.

---

I liked fatalism. When did we change that to skeptic? I'm not skeptic. Cynical, yes. I've answered all skepticism.

[yossarian]

The confusion is that skeptic has multiple definitions and I'm using the philosophy one not the pp culture one

[3DMonkey]

I've solved all skepticism. Is there a name for that?

[BrownEye]

[Ankh]

Pablisímo, thank you, my brother, for your reply. Although I don't agree on some points with you, I believe that I understand them now. I understand where you are coming from, and with your explanations I was able to understand others of similar opinions. I understand now that some people may consider that "shocking" method, or "in your face/throat" method, may serve their goal, without consideration for another self because of the intensity of their own experiences.

I've also had some of my views strengthened and expanded by people on this thread who DO agree with me.

By participating here I now experience an understanding, but not only because of the people who agree with me, but also because of those who do not. I think that I am now able to understand the vegetarians with an extreme approach to the matter, and also the so called "meat-eaters" with an extreme approach to the matter. Your participation added *a lot* to an understanding of those who are VERY strong biased towards vegetarian food choice. Thank you.

Basically, I consider this an appropriate place for vegetarians and meat eaters alike to discuss and debate our biased views. I look at it as an "OPT-IN" situation because no'one is forced to read the thread who does not wish to participate, which is different than billboards that you drive past and see without intentionally seeking it out.

What are your views on that? Do you consider posts from vegetarians who strongly, strongly, advocate their position and argue against the meat eating position to be too "in your face"? Or do you see a distinction between a conversation in this discussion forum and, say, the PETA billboards? Honestly, I think this thread may well be one of the very few places where it is perfectly acceptable to strongly convey our own views. I feel it is best done with the understanding that we must respect eachother we are all distorted/biased, and that we may not ultimately agree, but here seems like the right place to do it.

I have difficulties with an approach that is of an "extremist" point of view, or as you put it, "VERY direct and biased". I think now that I understand where it is coming from. However, I am still uneased when one "side" uses disrespectful tone when speaking to the "other" side, and pressing their opinions on them. I definitely think that this is something that we should discuss here, and especially if one has a strong and direct bias - this is the place for understanding!

I don't know what PETA is, but of course it is different to pass by an add and not have any choice but to look at it, and reading threads in this forum. However, this is a community I am a part of. When there are very disharmonious energies in one place - do you ignore it? Or do you try to look at it and understand? I don't buy the arguments like: if you don't like it here, no one is forcing you to be a member of this forum, it is optional. Or - it is optional to read this thread, so don't do it if you don't like it. Are we not one? Why then create this separation, and foremost by members who are consciously trying to understand the Law of *One*? Do you understand where I am coming from? This is probably the most disharmonious thread on this forum. Why would any member ignore it?

I"d just like to state for the record, since there has been so much tension, that I don't ask that question to trap you, and whatever your answer is, I will respect it. I just honestly have been perplexed why some people seem to resent that those with a different view are arguing their case here. I thought this was the whole point of a specific thread for this contentious, yet important, topic and my confusion is genuine.

Never entered my mind that you would trap me, my brother.

I can't speak for others, but what I believe that I have observed here is the lack of the respect that has been missing many times in this thread. Do you agree with that observation?

I believe that any topic of discussion, no matter how volatile or sensitive it is, could and should be discussed in this forum; but when/if members apply respect and consideration when speaking to each other, no matter how their opinions are unlike each other, there will be more harmonious discussions.

For me, though, advocating for animal rights is part of my growth process. I see animals as Other-Selves, and right now there is a vast system of suffering and cruelty in place on earth to raise meat that I don't believe is necessary. I "hear" this dull throbbing scream in the ether from millions of other beings, and it affects me. It could be my own internal distortions, of course, but this is who I am and this is how I feel about it. I don't expect agreement about my views, but I hope that understanding of where I am coming from is at least possible.

Thank you for telling this. I believe that I, now, gained understanding for those coming from the place you are coming from.

What I do when I'm going to a function where the majority of food is meat-based is simply eat something before I go. That way, I'm not too hungry and can just nibble on whatever bread or fruit or whatever small thing there is to eat. Another thing I do is carry some 'emergency snacks' with me in case some situation happens unexpectedly. For me, it's more about opting-out of the system as much as I am able and not stimulating demand. I actually think there is value in being an example for other people. I would never push my dietary views on someone else, especially at a family function, but I see just generally being a nice person who happens to not eat meat as HELPING the cause. People notice and it might prompt them to do some research and investigate how they feel about the topic. Maybe it's my own distortions again, I never claimed to be unbiased, but this is a positive way to be, I feel.

Totally understand what you mean, just don't agree with it.

I am thinking that *if* people do notice what I do and do not eat, it might make them uneasy and concerned that I am not eating what they have to offer. Out of concern for other selves, I would choose in the future when/if going veg, to not announce my at that time vegetarian food choice.

I also believe that there exists pride many times when vegetarians convey their food choice, and I believe that taking no pride in any of the choices is the right path (for me).

But even in this space, I have a different perspective. I feel that when I ingest meat, I'm polluting my bodily temple. I understand that this is my unique and subjective impression, and I don't claim it to be objective truth, but it is honestly how I feel. So, for me to ingest meat to avoid the other person buying and working more does not honor myself. That slides from STO behavior into martyrdom -- FOR ME. Given these personal factors, I opt instead to eat first and not ask the other person to buy or prepare anything special or extra. I don't belittle your perspective, here I merely share my own.

Again, thank you for sharing. I don't share these distortions, but I understand now.

Alas, I have never been to fair Sweden, but I hope to make it there one day.

If you ever do, it would be a true honor to meet you, my dear another self.

So, I can't comment on the specific term, but I have encountered the term "biological" in other countries in Northern (Well, NW) Europe, such as Holland & Germany. Perhaps that is what you mean?

It is called "ecological" in Sweden. Don't know about the "biological" term.

Sister, I think I share your struggle with this. If there is one thing that pushes my buttons, it's people forcing their views on another. We had a new member who in the past spent alot of time pressing his views on others in a hundred different threads, and I really struggled with acceptance there. I had to pray and meditate on him daily for weeks before I finally got some balance and clarity, and love returned.

Did you see it as an "in your face/throat" technique?

I understand what you are saying here. Definitely! I found peace and understanding in that due the changes I experienced in that person (edit: I mean changes in the approach, and that these same changes apply to myself as well. That there were changes in my approach as well). And now, hopefully, I am very close to finding it in this thread as well. It doesn't change the fact though, that I do experience difficulties when meeting this kind of the technique; when people are pressing their opinions upon others with no consideration and/or respect for another self, or whom they are discussing with.

Do you understand me now? And how I struggle, in the light of the above by you described experiences, with that in this thread?

I'm really working on this right now, so maybe I can share some insight that will help you with your own journey of acceptance. When it comes to these PETA billboards and "in your face" vegetarian approaches, what's underpinning that attitude is concern for the animals. Maybe it's unbalanced, off-center and subjective, but it feels so acute to them. They just hear this ethereal screaming from the abuse of so many, many beings that sometimes they go completely crazy trying to do something about it. This empathy is real, almost physical, and it's hard to ignore. Years ago, I said some things to meat eaters that were really unfair and unkind. I literally felt like meat consumers were supporting the systematic exploitation, torture and murder of my little brothers and sisters. It's not fair our reasonable -- but sometimes emotional reactions aren't logical. It took some growing up and spiritual evolution for me to find a balanced view and more fully integrate compassion for human Other-selves as well as animal Other-selves. I doesn't justify my or their behavior, but may help you to forgive it. I hope so anyway.

Thank you for sharing, my brother.

[yossarian]

I've solved all skepticism. Is there a name for that?

enlightenment

[Monica]

However, he clearly feels some hurt and insult, and we bear some responsibility for that as well as him.

Is the reverse also true?

I felt hurt and insult too. I feel unaccepted for who I am, and I feel judged for having strong convictions.

I'm asking you to help me see the Creator in everyone who has ever posted in this thread.

Done! You asked me this. Will the others be asked this as well?

I am saddened that who I am - a person with convictions - has somehow caused others to feel uncomfortable. I am sorry for the times when I felt exhausted from staying in this intense thread for 3 years, sometimes with little or no support from other vegetarians, and allowed my exhaustion to cloud my judgment. I am also sorry for the times when I felt frustrated at being repeatedly misunderstood and misrepresented, and allowed my frustration to affect the tone of my words. I am also sorry for allowing my sense of urgency about helping save our younger brethren from daily torture, to affect my interactions with my other brethren, who are unconsciously contributing to that torture. I am sorry for being confused as to why they have reacted with such resistance to something that seems very obvious to me and the other vegetarians. I am also sorry for allowing myself to feel hurt, judged, ridiculed, and ganged up on. I am sorry for then allowing that hurt to develop into judgment of others; I didn't feel judgment towards them for eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards them for their non-acceptance of my convictions. I am sorry for not accepting non-acceptance.

I am sorry for all these things.

I'm not sorry for being who I am. I'm not sorry for having strong convictions and being passionate about them. I'm sorry for any words spoken unkindly, but I'm not sorry that my words, when spoken kindly, still caused feelings of guilt to arise in some people, because I am not responsible for that. I'm not sorry for passionately sharing my views on this topic, in a thread devoted to this topic.

I accept those who eat meat on a daily basis. I am saddened that, apparently, many meat-eaters in this community are unable to accept me and the other vegetarians. They are unable to accept that we have strong convictions. With the exception of only a couple of them, none were able to say that this discussion had fostered greater understanding and compassion for vegetarians, despite the vegetarians sharing their increased compassion and understanding for them. This has bothered me. I didn't feel judgment towards them eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards their unwillingness or inability to accept the vegetarians. That is still judgment, nonetheless. For this, I am sorry.

I see the Creator in all our brothers and sisters, including our younger brothers and sisters - the animals - and including those who kill our younger brothers and sisters, or who allow someone else to kill them so they can eat them. I don't like this, but I do see the Creator in them, nonetheless. I am sorry for not always expressing this. I do see the Creator in all of them, regardless of what they do, and regardless of whether they see the Creator in the younger brothers and sisters who end up on their dining room table.

I realize that our difference lies largely in the fact that my 3D brothers and sisters disagree with me that 2D entities are brothers and sisters too, and thus it's difficult for them to have compassion for those 2D entities, and it's also difficult for them to have compassion for me when I try to save the 2D entities from torture and death. I hope to have more compassion for those who, in my biased judgement, struggle with compassion, by remembering this fact.

@Everyone
We are One. We are all Brothers & Sisters

Yes, and that includes the cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys and deer. They are our brothers and sisters too. They're just younger.

In forgiveness lies the stoppage of the wheel of karma.

In order to forgive, we must first accept.

Pablisímo, thank you, my brother, for your reply. Although I don't agree on some points with you, I believe that I understand them now. I understand where you are coming from, and with your explanations I was able to understand others of similar opinions.

Ankh, I am thrilled that our dear brother Pablisimo was able to convey these ideas in a way that fostered understanding, where I failed in that same effort. Wonderful!

I have difficulties with an approach that is of an "extremist" point of view, or as you put it, "VERY direct and biased".

Can you define extremist?

A co-worker once told me I was extremist because I didn't eat meat or candy.

Do you think someone who believes passionately that animals are our younger brothers and sisters, and tries to save them from being tortured and killed, is an extremist?

I think now that I understand where it is coming from. However, I am still uneased when one "side" uses disrespectful tone when speaking to the "other" side, and pressing their opinions on them.

Would you agree that tone is something that is very difficult to assess, when we have only typed words on a computer screen, and lack being able to see facial expressions or hear the tone of voice?

Would you agree that we all sometimes misperceive tone, because of our own preconceived ideas, biases, and distortions?

I don't buy the arguments like: if you don't like it here, no one is forcing you to be a member of this forum, it is optional. Or - it is optional to read this thread, so don't do it if you don't like it. Are we not one? Why then create this separation,

I am one of those who has stated that anyone not interested in this topic can easily just avoid the topic. This forum has hundreds of threads. Most of us don't read many of them.

What do you think is actually causing the separation?

How can the vegetarians be true to their convictions? Apparently, the only way *some* of the meat-eaters will accept the vegetarians, is if the vegetarians give up their convictions!

Is this what you would like to see happen, in order to restore harmony? Must we give up our convictions, Ankh? We've tried being 'nice' and that didn't work. No matter how 'nicely' our views were expressed, meat-eaters were still offended, not by how we said it, but by what we said. Must we censor ourselves? Or is there any other solution?

And lastly, I'm sorry in advance, if the baring of my soul, my honesty and my convictions, are construed as 'unkind.' They were not intended that way. If anyone is able to offer a solution to this conundrum, I would love to hear it.

I don't claim to be free of frustration and hurt. I am working on those things so I welcome your love and compassion, if you can find it in your heart to extend them to a passionate vegetarian with strong convictions.

I ask for compassion from those who, whether meat-eater or not, view us as fanatical zealots, even when we do nothing more than ask the waiter what vegetarian dishes they offer. I ask for compassion because those of you who don't view cows and chickens as other-selves have no idea how horrible it is, to hear their cries, to see their bloody carcasses in shopping carts and in kitchens, and on the plate of our friend while we must smile sweetly and pretend we didn't notice, and suppress our true selves, for fear of causing discomfort or being labeled a zealot, and suppress our natural desire to be of service to our younger other-selves, in order to get along with our human other-selves...all the while dealing with our own conflicted feelings of being unable to answer the cries of anguish that we want so much to answer.

We wonder whether we've done 'enough' for them, whether we could have spoken up more, and we chastise ourselves for letting what others think of us be more important than those we are called to help. We sometimes lie awake at night, hearing their cries, while struggling with our own guilt - the guilt of not having done enough...the guilt of of selfishly caring more about our popularity with other humans then we do about the suffering of our other-selves...the guilt of selfishly keeping our mouths shut, rather than being willing to endure ridicule. We're no saints. We often selfishly put ourselves first; we avoid speaking up not always because of love and consideration of our meat-eating friends, but sometimes because we want to avoid the backlash of animosity that will be directed at us if we speak up. I am sorry for the many times I have been selfish, and faltered in those convictions I claim to have. It's shameful to admit how many times I have thought of myself, and wished only to avoid the very conflict so prevalent on this thread. In real life, it's much harder.

It is horrible for us, and I despair of being unable to convey to you how horrible it is, without stirring up discomfort in you. I don't wish to cause discomfort. I wish only to answer the cries for help, and despair that I'm unable to do so, without alienating you.

I understand that, for whatever reason, you are unable to grasp the reality of their pain, and the reality of the pain of those who feel that pain. Please know that we do feel that pain very acutely, and this is what drives us. Please, even if you cannot understand it, perhaps you can have compassion for us in that respect.

I understand that many of you are unable to feel the pain of the animals. But would it be possible for you to feel our pain, and have compassion for us? For, we are in pain. Mental and emotional pain, on behalf of our younger other-selves. And then when we try to do something about it, we inadvertently cause pain to our human other-selves. Can you have compassion for our dilemma?

I'm not using graphic terminology to upset you. I'm beseeching you to please have compassion for us, because that is how we view what you might see as 'delicious food.' It isn't delicious food to us; it's the body of an other-self.

I realize you don't see it that way. Can you possibly have compassion for what it's like for those of us who do?

In the meantime, I am grateful to Pablisimo, who is able to build bridges where I was not. Carry the torch, my brother. May it illuminate your way and the ways of others, in peace, but not at the expense of truth, understanding and acceptance.

Peace without understanding and acceptance is easy to accomplish.

Peace with full understanding and acceptance, not so easy.