[split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
07-21-2015, 03:24 PM,
#61
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
I understand clearly the issue with tolerance and inclusiveness but I am trying to learn more about its source. You have somewhat pointed at it in regards to members working on their own stuff rather than esoteric and infinity type discussion, but with that being said are these things you would like to see more of?

What kind of discussions would you like to be having here?

Also, I admit the lack of 'appropriateness' in naming names is confusing to me. That's what I mean by wanting to resolve conflict without engaging in it. If you're gonna call foul, at least name the player. Maybe I'm just obtuse but I feel these issues might be a little easier to work on if everyone wasn't pussy-footing around everyone else.

I think this avoidance of direct conflict is a huge part of the forum egregore.
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07-21-2015, 04:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-21-2015, 04:27 PM by Diana.)
#62
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 03:24 PM)Aion Wrote:  I think this avoidance of direct conflict is a huge part of the forum egregore.

I agree. 

Theoretically: If I were a college student, and I was interacting with a group that included junior high school students, I wouldn't blame the junior high school students for being immature or point it out to them. What point would there be in that? But I might address the issue of the lack of effective communication within the group with the group in general, to hopefully bring light into a situation and try to improve the communication.

The above is obviously theoretical because I have actually done this sort of thing here—accused members of being juvenile. It does no good at all except to get a message from the Mods that my post was removed. No blame to the Mods and their difficult roles here. I apparently am not evolved enough myself to know how to handle situations here with both honesty and compassion. I'm sure one could even say that to accuse someone else of being juvenile is juvenile in itself.

Possibly the tendency to take things personally and not view the larger picture has hampered communication here, and changed the general content to more personal reactions and opinions than objective theories about concepts. 
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07-21-2015, 04:32 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-21-2015, 04:34 PM by Elros.)
#63
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
I worship the Great Aion!.. just kidding. But hey if you're looking for a clique and are willing to wear a shirt with my face on it, you can be part of mine for a fee of 2$.

So far I have a single other member but that member doesn't have to wear the shirt like you because of seniority of entry.

The clique is named : "The Cult of Procrastination" of which I am the One and only True God. You are allowed to worship/pray toward any other Gods, I am no jealous God.



For those who might be tempted in joining and know not of my powers. Simply pray to me your One True God of Procrastination and I shall boost your intuition so that you have to be less hard working in life.

Membership's only purpose is to buy a spa with cummulation of 2$ entry fees to get high in it all together.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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07-21-2015, 04:36 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-21-2015, 04:37 PM by Elros.)
#64
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
Silly me, if interested direct your prayers toward : Sarasa

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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isis
07-21-2015, 04:41 PM,
#65
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 04:32 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  I worship the Great Aion!.. just kidding. But hey if you're looking for a clique and are willing to wear a shirt with my face on it, you can be part of mine for a fee of 2$.

So far I have a single other member but that member doesn't have to wear the shirt like you because of seniority of entry.

The clique is named : "The Cult of Procrastination" of which I am the One and only True God. You are allowed to worship/pray toward any other Gods, I am no jealous God.




For those who might be tempted in joining and know not of my powers. Simply pray to me your One True God of Procrastination and I shall boost your intuition so that you have to be less hard working in life.

Membership's only purpose is to buy a spa with cummulation of 2$ entry fees to get high in it all together.


i co-own ur cult member, and i disapprove of procrastination.
Others dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the True Neutral sits in the middle and knows.
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07-21-2015, 05:15 PM,
#66
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 04:41 PM)Bluebell Wrote:  
(07-21-2015, 04:32 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  I worship the Great Aion!.. just kidding. But hey if you're looking for a clique and are willing to wear a shirt with my face on it, you can be part of mine for a fee of 2$.

So far I have a single other member but that member doesn't have to wear the shirt like you because of seniority of entry.

The clique is named : "The Cult of Procrastination" of which I am the One and only True God. You are allowed to worship/pray toward any other Gods, I am no jealous God.





For those who might be tempted in joining and know not of my powers. Simply pray to me your One True God of Procrastination and I shall boost your intuition so that you have to be less hard working in life.

Membership's only purpose is to buy a spa with cummulation of 2$ entry fees to get high in it all together.


i co-own ur cult member, and i disapprove of procrastination.


Sarasa cares not, Sarasa teaches that other-selves are free

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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07-21-2015, 05:26 PM,
#67
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
I feel it is appropriate to put myself forward as a member who has at times lacked tolerance of another's perspective and pointed a finger of judgement. It's actually a repeating catalyst for me when I have felt compelled to either defend the LoO literature when a treaties with some other (supposedly) channelled material has been offered. Or defending the right of one member to connect with another member where nutritional needs and how one could go about in the supplying of them, has been the avenue in which that connection was made. I even attempted to defend JustLikeYou back on the Account1 thread, probably a member the least in need of a caped crusader lol. Or there was the plea of understanding and tolerance in defence of Monica's position on the 'why I am not a vegan' thread. I saw a great energy and motherly archetype in her back then and I think we all at some point feel compelled to defend whatever or whoever we are attracted to, in one fashion or another. At times though I just bust down the door and create more disharmony in the name of harmony (sigh).  My own partner has frustratingly said to me in the past "Why do you always have to get involved?". The list goes on. 

This thread title itself implies a neutral context in which to share our feelings/perspective. I would like to add more to it, but I am done with the confession mode!

Finally though, for what it is worth Diana, your smile in your picture is one that comes from your heart and it is easy to connect with you simply by looking at it. Sometimes it is a beautiful metaphor, or spiritual text, or simply a heart felt smile like that.

One more thing. Hey Patrick, where is your opinion here  Big Grin 
...the highest wisdom is to suffer all men to have full liberty to think on all subjects in their own way. - OAHSPE  
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07-21-2015, 05:35 PM,
#68
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 03:24 PM)Aion Wrote:  I understand clearly the issue with tolerance and inclusiveness but I am trying to learn more about its source. You have somewhat pointed at it in regards to members working on their own stuff rather than esoteric and infinity type discussion, but with that being said are these things you would like to see more of?

What kind of discussions would you like to be having here?

Also, I admit the lack of 'appropriateness' in naming names is confusing to me. That's what I mean by wanting to resolve conflict without engaging in it. If you're gonna call foul, at least name the player. Maybe I'm just obtuse but I feel these issues might be a little easier to work on if everyone wasn't pussy-footing around everyone else.

I think this avoidance of direct conflict is a huge part of the forum egregore.

Old saying in group dynamics, the problem is not the people but the system in which people are operating within. That way of viewing things may be non-blaming, non-scapegoating so therefore it won't erupt into fighting or arguments or whatnot. We're all part of the problem and we all share responsibility to help w/ change. 

What I think what you're doing, Tanner, is getting to the root of why we behave the way we do and why we have set patterns of interaction? Is that what you mean by social egregore? I still have a bit of an issue w/ that word due to what happened before (when I interpreted it as a witch-hunt).

Some hypothesis: Making factions, being entrenched in our position, avoiding conflict due to aversion to conflict, paucity of self-honesty, I mean all those good old yellow ray stuff. We had several big events happen here e.g., big disagreements over ethics, persons who had major complaints, and what have you... I think those may have some influence in shaping how we now interact. Being wisdom-based is safer, it seems, bc too much interpersonal or intimate connections can be exhausting and painful for individuals (too personal). We kind of sit on old material that may not be fully resolved. 

I feel we've become entrenched... maybe that's along the lines of stagnation?

I forgot the acronym ltdr or something... but anyway... we might trace forum history together and try to see if we can understand energetic shifts of the forum together?

------
Here's the forum purpose and values as written in guideline... back to basics man: 

Quote:The purpose of our forum is to provide you and many seekers like you a safe meeting place conducive to conversation regarding the fascinating and inexhaustible field of spiritual evolution.


Quote: Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectful at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our knowledge, deepen our understanding, and support one another by reflecting our divinity to each other. We are One being -- we are not here to forget the real.
-------
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07-21-2015, 05:44 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-21-2015, 05:45 PM by ree.)
#69
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 05:19 AM)Matt1 Wrote:  Love until it hurts sounds like an over-activated green ray that needs blue ray balancing. Likewise the looking at the wall for 8 hours could need some more green ray energy. Both of them sound like exterm cases rather than a balance.

Yes totally, these are the most intensive ways. The gist of it is that women mystics chose to relate to other self instead of doing it almost, alone e.g., meditation. The male essence can hold a space, the female essence can move within. 

When male essence doesn't seem to be holding the space for the female essence there can be conflict. 

If we hold the space so tightly, there's also no space to move & do... 

So female complaint here is f***, I don't feel like you're holding space for me to move lol.
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07-21-2015, 05:53 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-21-2015, 05:55 PM by Elros.)
#70
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
Thing is in my opinion that "Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart." is very very relative from different perspectives. I can perceive things as funny and enjoyable that others would just think of as wicked and evil.

I have seen some blame others of not being all of these things while incarnating quite the opposite of it themselves, thus blaming in others what they were doing and then overeacting and stating that there are cliques and such when members not related to these conflicts would point out the obvious hypocrisy. I have seen some create situations that made them not feel "safe" in this place over and over, just to comlain about not feeling safe.


My two questions would be :

How can we open our hearts if we are not allowed to express what feelings are within them?

How is a community where people would be untrue to themselves and fake (simply to seemingly look compasionate), be any constructive in enhancing love within each of us?

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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07-21-2015, 06:21 PM,
#71
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 05:35 PM)ree Wrote:  
(07-21-2015, 03:24 PM)Aion Wrote:  I understand clearly the issue with tolerance and inclusiveness but I am trying to learn more about its source. You have somewhat pointed at it in regards to members working on their own stuff rather than esoteric and infinity type discussion, but with that being said are these things you would like to see more of?

What kind of discussions would you like to be having here?

Also, I admit the lack of 'appropriateness' in naming names is confusing to me. That's what I mean by wanting to resolve conflict without engaging in it. If you're gonna call foul, at least name the player. Maybe I'm just obtuse but I feel these issues might be a little easier to work on if everyone wasn't pussy-footing around everyone else.

I think this avoidance of direct conflict is a huge part of the forum egregore.

Old saying in group dynamics, the problem is not the people but the system in which people are operating within. That way of viewing things may be non-blaming, non-scapegoating so therefore it won't erupt into fighting or arguments or whatnot. We're all part of the problem and we all share responsibility to help w/ change. 

What I think what you're doing, Tanner, is getting to the root of why we behave the way we do and why we have set patterns of interaction? Is that what you mean by social egregore? I still have a bit of an issue w/ that word due to what happened before (when I interpreted it as a witch-hunt).

Some hypothesis: Making factions, being entrenched in our position, avoiding conflict due to aversion to conflict, paucity of self-honesty, I mean all those good old yellow ray stuff. We had several big events happen here e.g., big disagreements over ethics, persons who had major complaints, and what have you... I think those may have some influence in shaping how we now interact. Being wisdom-based is safer, it seems, bc too much interpersonal or intimate connections can be exhausting and painful for individuals (too personal). We kind of sit on old material that may not be fully resolved. 

I feel we've become entrenched... maybe that's along the lines of stagnation?

I forgot the acronym ltdr or something... but anyway... we might trace forum history together and try to see if we can understand energetic shifts of the forum together?

------
Here's the forum purpose and values as written in guideline... back to basics man: 


Quote:The purpose of our forum is to provide you and many seekers like you a safe meeting place conducive to conversation regarding the fascinating and inexhaustible field of spiritual evolution.


Quote: Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectful at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our knowledge, deepen our understanding, and support one another by reflecting our divinity to each other. We are One being -- we are not here to forget the real.
-------

Well, the word egregore isn't well defined for most people so its easy to get confused about it. You could say that it is the 'group identity' in a way, which may not necessarily be balanced. However, that is why I have been asking about more details because it seems clear to me there is some chain of events which has created the current environment.

I think because I am often in the thick of controversy I sometimes may not see things as well on the outside so I apologize for my near-sightedness.

However, if I was to take a stab in the dark the issue seems to arise whenever there are individuals whom insist on certain interpretations while discrediting the interpretations of others? So, maybe it's an issue of flexibility. I think that's what most people mean by tolerance is a flexibility in one's interactions. Being able to receive as well as give.
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07-21-2015, 07:58 PM,
#72
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 06:21 PM)Aion Wrote:  Well, the word egregore isn't well defined for most people so its easy to get confused about it. You could say that it is the 'group identity' in a way, which may not necessarily be balanced. However, that is why I have been asking about more details because it seems clear to me there is some chain of events which has created the current environment.

I think because I am often in the thick of controversy I sometimes may not see things as well on the outside so I apologize for my near-sightedness.

However, if I was to take a stab in the dark the issue seems to arise whenever there are individuals whom insist on certain interpretations while discrediting the interpretations of others? So, maybe it's an issue of flexibility. I think that's what most people mean by tolerance is a flexibility in one's interactions. Being able to receive as well as give.

Understood. Nah we all participate so it's all our responsibility. I've done drama queen thing myself lol. Apologize too.

Ya that's what I was thinking too, flexibility, entrenchment, rigidity.... it's immovable so can stagnate. As w/ the love until it hurts thing, with narrow 'holding space' we can't really move to do our thing. 

How did flexibility become an issue? 

We did have polarizing debates over harvest and ethics of eating and whatnot. 
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07-21-2015, 08:04 PM,
#73
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
Hmm, maybe because flexibility is lumped in with those traits that are given to 'appeals to infinity' and 'magical thinking'?
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07-21-2015, 08:05 PM,
#74
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
That reminds me of the word 'infinitude'. I've always liked that word.

There is an anthro somewhere who needs me and I need them.
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07-21-2015, 08:33 PM,
#75
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 05:26 PM)Nicholas Wrote:  Finally though, for what it is worth Diana, your smile in your picture is one that comes from your heart and it is easy to connect with you simply by looking at it. Sometimes it is a beautiful metaphor, or spiritual text, or simply a heart felt smile like that.

Thank you. It's worth a lot. Smile
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07-21-2015, 08:42 PM,
#76
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 08:04 PM)Aion Wrote:  Hmm, maybe because flexibility is lumped in with those traits that are given to 'appeals to infinity' and 'magical thinking'?

That could be part of it. And you know my views of appealing to infinity & magical thinking... I think it's not a prohibited thing at all... it's more about grounding and situating ideas or experiences in ways that is relatable for people. Easy to get mesmerized in beauty of infinity and such. 

What about in context of how we relate to each other? 

Dunno, I think we polarize to 2 sides... story of how 3D life is like. As Jade said, it's like forum of individuals w.o common purpose e.g., for understanding or as Diana said, there's a sense of lack in inclusiveness department... I kind of get this:

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07-22-2015, 03:12 AM,
#77
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
Hmm, well you keep specifically refering to how we relate to eachother. I know that should maybe be an obvious concept for me to understand but I am still not completely clear. Do you mean the way in which we observe others and compare what we observe to ourselves and own life? In other words, how much we see of our perception of the other person in our own self/lives?
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07-22-2015, 03:17 AM,
#78
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 05:15 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  Sarasa cares not, Sarasa teaches that other-selves are free

Sarasa is mine!!!!!!
Others dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the True Neutral sits in the middle and knows.
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07-22-2015, 09:43 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-22-2015, 09:44 AM by Matt1.)
#79
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
I don't understand how a male can create space for a female. I assume that it does not mean physical space, but rather a type of emotional foundation for the female to feel safe and secure in, so that she can express herself and brighten that space up? In order for that to work some parameters would have to be made to create that space of being? But that still sounds a little static, i think he's referring to a more organic process. Perhaps its referring to space in consciousness, a type of emptiness allowing the more emotional or grasping female aspect to flow through and flower in that space. I am not sure. I am fairly hopeless with this type of thing. hmm



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07-22-2015, 12:35 PM,
#80
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
u think we're just flowers? we're here to decorate ur space???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????​?
Others dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the True Neutral sits in the middle and knows.
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07-22-2015, 12:54 PM,
#81
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
Poor hopeless math.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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07-22-2015, 01:07 PM,
#82
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-21-2015, 05:53 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  My two questions would be :

How can we open our hearts if we are not allowed to express what feelings are within them?

Everything is a choice. 

(07-21-2015, 05:53 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  How is a community where people would be untrue to themselves and fake (simply to seemingly look compasionate), be any constructive in enhancing love within each of us?

If you can name one person you know who truly knows him or herself, then this question has meaning. We have all been conditioned to play roles from childhood (to say nothing of impressions beyond this life) where we all had to survive in dysfunction (both familial and societal). It's the state of humanity—there are no perfect parents or societies which truly support humans to flourish. 

We must chip away at the roles, and survival behaviors, and triggers, and societal conditionings, and a host of other influences to get to the core of who we are as unique individuals or energetic beings. It is like a sculptor chipping away at marble.

It is not simple to be true to yourself. Most of us don't have any clear idea who we are. Most think they do, but that is the nature of a survival role. One example would be that most people are still seeking parental approval in the form of wanting validation and accolades. If you truly know yourself, and know what your talents are without exaggerating them or not acknowledging where you could grow, you don't need validation at all. 
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07-22-2015, 01:10 PM,
#83
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-22-2015, 01:07 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(07-21-2015, 05:53 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  My two questions would be :

How can we open our hearts if we are not allowed to express what feelings are within them?

Everything is a choice. 


(07-21-2015, 05:53 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  How is a community where people would be untrue to themselves and fake (simply to seemingly look compasionate), be any constructive in enhancing love within each of us?

If you can name one person you know who truly knows him or herself, then this question has meaning. We have all been conditioned to play roles from childhood (to say nothing of impressions beyond this life) where we all had to survive in dysfunction (both familial and societal). It's the state of humanity—there are no perfect parents or societies which truly support humans to flourish. 

We must chip away at the roles, and survival behaviors, and triggers, and societal conditionings, and a host of other influences to get to the core of who we are as unique individuals or energetic beings. It is like a sculptor chipping away at marble.

It is not simple to be true to yourself. Most of us don't have any clear idea who we are. Most think they do, but that is the nature of a survival role. One example would be that most people are still seeking parental approval in the form of wanting validation and accolades. If you truly know yourself, and know what your talents are without exaggerating them or not acknowledging where you could grow, you don't need validation at all. 

But to chip away the marble, one needs to work with the marble.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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07-22-2015, 01:16 PM,
#84
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-22-2015, 01:10 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  But to chip away the marble, one needs to work with the marble.

Of course. You are the sculptor of your marble. I think that goes without saying. It's no one else's responsibility.
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07-22-2015, 01:36 PM,
#85
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
[Image: The_goddess_pele_by_arthur_johnsen.jpg]
Others dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the True Neutral sits in the middle and knows.
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07-22-2015, 02:24 PM,
#86
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-22-2015, 01:16 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(07-22-2015, 01:10 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  But to chip away the marble, one needs to work with the marble.

Of course. You are the sculptor of your marble. I think that goes without saying. It's no one else's responsibility.

What I meant to say is that being true to the raw marble is still being true to ourselves because it is what we currently are in awareness. By embracing our current fool's state, we chip away the marble like you said and evolve our awareness of what lies beneath little by little.

IMO, no one can ever not be true to themselves, we just refine what it means with time.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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07-22-2015, 02:50 PM,
#87
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
This interaction is a perfect example of the endless circles we can get in.

I think this one of 'everything is perfect/complete' vs 'everything is changing/evolving' happens at least a couple times a day...
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07-22-2015, 02:55 PM,
#88
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-22-2015, 02:50 PM)Aion Wrote:  This interaction is a perfect example of the endless circles we can get in.

I think this one of 'everything is perfect/complete' vs 'everything is changing/evolving' happens at least a couple times a day...

What about everything is in it's perfection, ever changing and evolving?

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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07-22-2015, 02:57 PM,
#89
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-22-2015, 02:55 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  
(07-22-2015, 02:50 PM)Aion Wrote:  This interaction is a perfect example of the endless circles we can get in.

I think this one of 'everything is perfect/complete' vs 'everything is changing/evolving' happens at least a couple times a day...

What about everything is in it's perfection, ever changing and evolving?
Would you stop trying to twist my words in to one of your ideas for once?
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07-22-2015, 03:12 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-22-2015, 03:12 PM by Elros.)
#90
RE: [split] "balance of female/male perspectives"
(07-22-2015, 02:57 PM)Aion Wrote:  
(07-22-2015, 02:55 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:  
(07-22-2015, 02:50 PM)Aion Wrote:  This interaction is a perfect example of the endless circles we can get in.

I think this one of 'everything is perfect/complete' vs 'everything is changing/evolving' happens at least a couple times a day...

What about everything is in it's perfection, ever changing and evolving?
Would you stop trying to twist my words in to one of your ideas for once?

I guess that I could that, but that's what I do on the forum. Twisting other words into my owns to bring different perspectives and expand my owns.

Would you say I currently am an unnecessary part of this forum? Since this thread derailed into talking about what's good and what's not for the forum, I do not mind doing a retrospective of myself.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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