The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
03-06-2017, 06:09 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-06-2017, 06:18 AM by Agua del Cielo.)
#61
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
i have a slightly different view on this:

for me its not so much about men and women.
for me its more about feminine and masculine energy and "principles".

Patriarchy in my opinion derived from the oppression of the female energy or principle.
our Culture and society is still heavily biased towards male energy.
It is a very lengthy and difficult process to overcome and balance this, it is not to be expected overnight i fear.
i think it's not only about overcoming the obvious injustice, men aus well as women are being called to change on a very deep and substancial level.

Apart from that i think we are mostly not observing male and female energy at work, wie are observing the unconscious and unhealed masculine and feminine at work.

I am a man, which doesnt tell much.
i have been hurt to the extreme by unconscious women and men in my life, hard to tell, which was more severe.
I have come to a point, where i heal and develop the feminine principle in me more and more. to develop and experience this is my birthright as a human being, it is not at all reserved for women.
Much slower i come to a point where i heal and develop the Male energy in me. When healed from all its wounds, the Male Energy is something very warm,beautiful and caring; that was a real surprise for me.

I have still a very long way to go, very much to heal, but a beginning is made.
There is no better or worse, both are integral parts of our very being and we should heal and develop both.

To the "sexual attraction":
Most of my friends are women. I guess its because i get along better with the female energy, i usually have a problem with head-heavy people. so its basically the energetic quality which attracts me.
Still i am sometimes attracted on a sexual level. mostly not by my female friends,but other woman, but it also happened with friends.
I dont find it necessary or appropriate to Act it out in any way, much more since i am in a relationship. But i can See nothing wrong with the Energy arising in me.
Maybe its because connecting sexually with a person was one of the very First things i "learned" in my life, maybe it has other reasons.
But it just is. And i can see no de-humanization in it.

edit:
i couldnt be bothered to read the linked blog, since already the title was quite deterring...
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03-06-2017, 06:52 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-06-2017, 06:53 AM by Billy.)
#62
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-05-2017, 06:03 PM)Glow Wrote:  It's funny but no male here countering his argument has kind of ruined the place to a degree. Like why ask anything if men the majority here see us that way "less good, less than, manipulating, lazy" ... If we are so worthless why would they answer.

All it would have taken would be one man to say they don't agree and the situation would have been difused emensly. It would have felt we had an ally and weren't being vilified to a silent complacent audience that implies agreement.

I would argue that this is an interpretation, not a fact.  It could also be suggested that by not replying, it shows that the men here on this forum do not agree with the views you are referring to, as they are not validating them.  I would also argue that the men on this forum don't see the women on this forum in the way described.  You just have to look at the interactions on this forum to find good evidence for that.  

I strongly disagree with the idea that silence implies agreement.  I don't think it is that simple, which actually touches on one of the reasons why I find feminism, or many of these social movements, to be so frustrating a lot of the time.  The impression and feeling I get is that if you don't agree or take issue with the interpretations of society and its dynamics taught be these movements, then all of a sudden you are the bad guy, you are the oppressor and you are a part of the problem.  You literally perpetuate the suffering and subjugation of others and should shut your mouth, educate yourself and then come back when you are worth something.  I don't think that is fair.  I think that is why so many people just dismiss these things.

I don't think people are saying that bad things don't happen.  Just that the beliefs about society at large that are extrapolated from them aren't fact and are open for debate.  It is a tough pill to swallow when you are told that just because you don't believe that we live in a patriarchy that you perpetuate oppression, yet, from what I have seen, this is common practice. I think that captures some of my views on this topic quite well.
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03-06-2017, 08:06 AM,
#63
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-02-2017, 11:04 PM)earth_spirit Wrote:  It is not a virtuous movement. The virtue of feminism is that it is a helpful symptom of an insidious cancer called gynocentrism.

For starters you can look into The Manipulated Man, or Anatomy of Female Power.

In addition, here is a relevant blog. I also recommend the Alexander MGTOW channel on YouTube.

As for the video in the OP; I'll say that men are withdrawing from society at an increasing rate, which compels more and more sympathetic(!) women to draw them back into the plantations.

i have no clue where you draw your conclusions from!
It seems there is Great need for healing, meaning you seem to be hurt a lot maybe in your family or your culture or both.
But honestly your view seems to derive from Deep emotional wounds rather than unbiased observation.
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03-06-2017, 09:45 AM,
#64
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 06:09 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  i have a slightly different view on this:

for me its not so much about men and women.
for me its more about feminine and masculine energy and "principles".

I agree with you here. I look at the fem. and masc. energies within us.
There's great confusion here in the West about gender. But I'll say it...

There is only the male and the female. Each of us as individuals have a unique balance of male/female and female/male energy. We choose before incarnation the type of experience that we want/need/desire, the male path offering certain learnings and challenges and gifts and the female offering certain experiences, challenges, ans gifts.

Feminism as an ideology today is toxic. There are many untruths that are shouted. Such as the gender pay gap being because of inequality. This is false. Men and women choose different careers. It's not that women are paid less than men for the exact same job. But you will never hear an ideological feminist acknowledge this fact.

There are of course those who will never give up the fight, and never acknowledge that progress has been made (significant progress I'll add). Not just with female equality, but with racial equality, and sexual orientation equality, etc.

BUT as diana said on the first page of this thread, the next step is to drop the labels. These labels do not serve us. They instil a sense of separation. It may be an unconscious sense, yet it's still there.

The way I like to look at humanity is that we are all human, we are all God's children, we are here together. Skin color, sexuality, religion, sex, these are surface details. What matters is one's character and choices. Even then, the most wicked person is still the Creator. Labels are divisive and we need to drop them.

"Namaste" is the next step for humanity after labels are dropped and seen for what they are. When humanity points its compass as a whole towards positive service to others in fourth density.

We can lighten the planetary consciousness right now by seeing each other as the Creator. It's a practice given by Ra that I think we can all benefit from.
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03-06-2017, 10:18 AM,
#65
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Hmm, i agree and disagree at the same time.

While the basic setting might be a pre-incarnational choice it is by no means fixed.
I think it's subject to growth and development to the largest part.

Additionally, Most of what is perveived aus masculine or feminine is HIGHLY distorted and a Great amount of healing will be necessary nor only to integrate the "opposite" energy but more so to heal BOTH energies in us.
By the way, i still think by healing this INSIDE of us, we heal our Share of the global Energy and problem.

I disagree on stuff like gender pay gap, in my opinion this is a sad fact.

I think feminism (which by the way is a very generalizing term) even in its "aggressive" form was a very important contribution to human development. It helped change quite a lot over the past decades!
And still there is lots of work to do.

On the other side i think "feminism" itself also needs to grow.
When you look at the Business world for example, on one hand women can nowadays finally take whatever profession they want, which is important.
On the other hand i sometimes feel that the female Energy still is not appreciated and allowed.

It's not enough to "allow" women to also be "masculine", Talking about the "unconscious male" here.
(i apologize, i greatly struggle with words here, since english is a foreign Language for me!)

It might be a first step to have female politicians or managers, but as i see it, it's still mostly those women in these jobs that are as cold, greedy, ruthless and egoistic as their male counterparts!

Im still waiting and hoping for a female president (surely not Talking bout clinton...) that acts out of compassion,love and understanding.

I think it's Time to take the step to accept, appreciate and incorporate the female principle globally and on a personal level.
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03-06-2017, 11:22 AM,
#66
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Quote:Jade, I honestly think you are surmising this out of an expectation, which no one could blame you for. But it is not a fact. It may be likely, but not necessarily true.  You simply can't know from words on a page what another person's intent was, especially when there may be emotional content built up.

Is there a point in continuing to engage on a forum, if it's impossible to tell a person's intent from their words?

Here is the context for what I have to discern someone's intent:

Quote:You don't want to call me sexist, I'm aware of my feelings of misogyny, I refuse to allow them or the decade of porn brainwashing to make me truly feel a woman is any different from I.

I greatly admire the female form, it is truly one of divine beauty that should be treated with integrity, dignity, pride, love, and respect.
I feel (less sexually so) the same about the male formations and energies.

Obviously what is being said here isn't inherently negative. But it's certainly without thought to the context of the conversation. It's also framed with a major cause/symptom - the porn addiction, which, as far as I'm aware hasn't been broken yet according to Joseph, so it seems disingenuous when he says "I'm not going to let porn control me - I love the female form!" This is doublespeak anyway. He also said he loves the female form but he loves the male "formations and energies". This may not exactly define his intent, but his words are obviously biased.

I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, but it is pretty sad to me that I have to explain and defend my feelings so thoroughly - why I feel that trying to placate a woman by complimenting her appearance shouldn't be a default reaction. "I honestly try not to hate women, I admire their form!" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement to ridding yourself of biased thoughts.

Quote:1. As an artist myself, I understand appreciation of the female form very much. The reason you don't see as many male nudes is not because painted nudes are seen as sexual in nature (for the most part; I couldn't be absolute on this); it's because the female form with its curves and shape is much more interesting and delightful to paint/draw (ask any artist). Perhaps some may think sexual thoughts when they see a painted nude, but you can't blame a person for the amount of testosterone in their system.

So here's my question because you seem to contradict yourself a bit here: Should I just forgive him because I misperceived a faux pas, or is it true, as you say here at the end of your post, that it was likely he was making a sexual comment?

And another question, Diana, is do you think that your experience of being a beautiful, self-sufficient business woman for over 30 years might have protected you from some of the struggles that average women in our society typically experience?

Quote:B4 will always be welcome to women,

Are you the person here who decides this? Because I feel decidedly unwelcome after things like this, and I'm not the only one who has said so in this thread. Do you not recognize that there is a HUGE demographic skew to males on this forum? A similar instance that compounds this one was when a poster hypothetically threatened to rape me while reading the Ra material to me - and back then, everyone also thought I was overreacting. But it's obvious from this thread that this is not the case, and I feel this strongly. But, it seems consensus is that I should defer to the male majority about how women should feel about what others say, and how women should put a positive spin on misogynistic statements.

I'm not sure if you read the right blog that I was talking about. The links to the blog were removed. It was "Religion Confidence Trick" (reader beware.) I hadn't read the other blog link that's still up, but it seems the first post is about the "female attraction to violence" and how this creates "bad boys" - ah yes, it must be because women love violence so much that men commit 80%+ of violent crimes. Still, the first few paragraphs of that article weren't -near- as disgusting as the article I read on the other blog that was emphatically endorsed by e_s.

Joseph, two quick things to you:
1. You say that we should have left e_s's post up, but haven't you also recently called for more moderation?
2. You have explicitly asked me to beat you over the head if I think you are being dense about something. For those who may be judging my tone, please keep this in mind. This service was asked of me. And trust me, it's not easy, and you've done an okay job of handling it Joseph. But I still think there is so much misunderstanding here. I don't think I can be the only one to bridge the gap when the way I choose to defend women is considered hateful, causing shame, "yelling at/blowing up at people", and misandrist.

Did anyone even read the Q'uo channeling I posted on the first page? Is Q'uo also just making stuff up when they are talking about our androcentric society and the repression of the feminine?
http://llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/2017/2017_0204.aspx

Quote:I don't know, it sounds more ignorant to me than anything else, mostly because black people and women are different systems of energies in parts, feminine equality is a red ray issue for me, racial equality is an orange ray issue, to offer one in context of the other is a bit hard to answer a question of.  The feminine equality belongs to every racial label we have in society, and in a way it ties the yellow ray energies of family into the orange ray qualities of racial equality.  I do not believe e_s intended to come off in the manner you hear of him, I sort of wish he would come back and expand on what he was getting at because I think he greatly misrepresented his actual opinions if these are the reactions to them.

Joseph, here is something you said in a previous post:

Quote:I clump racism and sexism as things worthy of being discussed together because at the most core of their roots, are the same causes.

Can you see why it is frustrating, nay, infuriating to attempt to continue this conversation in an open-hearted manner, when you especially keep twisting around and dodging and denying things that you have said and things that others have said?

How about this, does this fall upon you at all as hate speech? Or am I just completely triggered by something that is neutral?

"Gay people are too lazy to contribute anything to society. Gay people shouldn't be allowed to have children because they raise their girls to be narcissistic airheads and their boys to be subservient slaves to women. Gay people oppress gay people (and everyone else) more than straight people."

If someone said that here on this forum, would you feel any desire stand up for homosexuals?

I certainly know from experience that if you call someone homophobic, that is considered hate speech by the male majority on this forum and is actually a huge faux pas. Seems a pattern may be emerging.
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03-06-2017, 12:25 PM,
#67
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Balance of the female and male polarities within us all is the underlying force in my opinion, which manifests in the physical world as a conflict between women and men (as Agua del Cielo—does that mean "heavenly water"—pointed out in this discussion).

We as a species will hopefully evolve and create a kinder, gentler, more compassionate society. But this does not mean female qualities are better than male, or that male qualities are "bad." All qualities are needed for balance. All humanity is evolving. And every human has distortions. That does not preclude the human need apparently of activism to provide the initial thrust of change.

If you separate out a particular scenario, such as the workplace, it is obviously out of balance. Unequal pay in my opinion is a very small part of it. In my case, if I were going for a job and found I wouldn't be paid as much as a man, I would demand it. Which is part of my point here—I have a lot of male qualities which have served me well in the business world. Just being kind, compassionate and gentle are not enough to break inertia and create forward movement, which Seth talks about in the original Seth Speaks, when he canvasses the idea of aggressive energy needed for "thrust" (such as in the birth process).

The real issues in the workplace are intrinsic in society: the disregard for the planet, disrespect of other life forms and other peoples, destroying resources, the manipulations of marketing, greed. One can't lay these things on males just because the world has been patriarchal for millennia. Women allow it too. Balance within individuals is what is needed, opening of hearts, awareness beyond self and tribe, inclusion and compassion. This is evolution of consciousness. And evolution of consciousness comes from within, though cultural shifts in mass consciousness can be instigated by activism.

The reaction to injustice, as in the example of slavery—whether it be Africans, women, Asians (after Pearl Harbor), and so on—is to desire change and want restitution as has been pointed out. But look at the situation with African-Americans. There is still prejudice hundreds of years later. Apologies, changed laws, and true sympathy (at least from some people) have not eradicated the feelings within some African-Americans of injustice. Activism will only take this so far. You can't make people change. They must change themselves.  

Another issue at hand is sexual manipulation. I will suggest here that an aspect of this is setting boundaries. Setting boundaries, in my mind, is quite different than fighting back. Simply not allowing a person to denigrate you is setting a boundary, and ideally is backed up with self-esteem and self-worth. These attributes are the responsibility of self, not society. It's unfortunate that society is so unenvolved, but we all chose to be here now.

Women as a group have culpability in the imbalance as much as men do. We have "allowed" the imbalance and perpetuated it ourselves in some ways. By reacting to the patriarchy, women, for instance, as a response to survival, developed manipulatory techniques. This was a clever response to the system in place. But to heal this imbalance women must participate in the healing, acknowledge female participation, just as much as men must, in my opinion.

Another aspect would be beauty. Why would a woman want breast implants? I can tell you, because I have friends who have them, that one of the side effects is some to all loss of nipple sensation, aside from the scar tissue and other dangers (as SMC I think pointed out). Why would a woman do that? It's a great question because one must understand that the woman was not MADE to do it. This is not to say I'm judging cosmetic surgery at all. I am only pointing out that we all are involved in this evolution of equality as a species, and its manifestations are insidious and ingrained.

It's fine to demand restitution, but for me, that is not the way. For example, let's put animal abuse in this context, which as everyone knows here I care deeply about. If humanity ceased torturing and slaughtering animals in horrid factory farms, my feeling would be one of pure joy and gratitude. I wouldn't want to throw the factory farmers in jail and make them accountable, because they were ignorant of respect for life based on their consciousness. I would be celebrating the evolution.

That, of course, raises the question of how we will have gotten to that point of freeing animals from human abuse. The best way in my opinion would be to somehow open the hearts of the abusers. Activism may be the initial breaking of inertia, but after that, compassion for the abusers would be helpful in healing the entire situation.
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03-06-2017, 12:43 PM,
#68
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 11:22 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  Is there a point in continuing to engage on a forum, if it's impossible to tell a person's intent from their words?

This is a good point. I agree that in order to proceed one must make the leap in cyberspace of interpretation of words on a page. I would just point out that some people such as yourself are very articulate, while others are not so much.  

(03-06-2017, 11:22 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  
Quote:1. As an artist myself, I understand appreciation of the female form very much. The reason you don't see as many male nudes is not because painted nudes are seen as sexual in nature (for the most part; I couldn't be absolute on this); it's because the female form with its curves and shape is much more interesting and delightful to paint/draw (ask any artist). Perhaps some may think sexual thoughts when they see a painted nude, but you can't blame a person for the amount of testosterone in their system.

So here's my question because you seem to contradict yourself a bit here: Should I just forgive him because I misperceived a faux pas, or is it true, as you say here at the end of your post, that it was likely he was making a sexual comment?

I wasn't being very clear actually. The above quote by me was insular in that it had nothing directly to do with any comments by anyone here. I was just trying to widen the view with an artist's perspective.

Personally, in interpreting words on a page, I am guessing the comment you refer to was unconscious for whatever that is worth.

(03-06-2017, 11:22 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  And another question, Diana, is do you think that your experience of being a beautiful, self-sufficient business woman for over 30 years might have protected you from some of the struggles that average women in our society typically experience?

Certainly I do. But my life has not been all roses. There have been extreme vicissitudes beginning in childhood. And in being entrepreneurial, many ups and downs though I will concede to an adult business life mostly of success.

I have dealt with some aspects of female oppression directly, but not all. Self-worth to me is the absolute cornerstone of the path out of the quagmire of oppression. And in that, I am lucky to have a foot up as they say. But we all (theoretically) chose how to come into this life, so the bottom line for me is to reach my own potential in whatever ways I can. In this, I am no different than anyone else.

Beyond that, I am definitely empathetic. The suffering here on this planet is something I have to center myself in every day.
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03-06-2017, 12:55 PM,
#69
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Quote:If humanity ceased torturing and slaughtering animals in horrid factory farms, my feeling would be one of pure joy and gratitude. I wouldn't want to throw the factory farmers in jail and make them accountable, because they were ignorant of respect for life based on their consciousness.

If our society stopped unconsciously engaging in sexist rhetoric, my feelings would be of pure joy and gratitude. I wouldn't want to yell at or shame anyone, because they were ignorant of respecting both genders equally.

At the same time, are you not grateful for those who speak up to the factory farmers who are currently engaging in torture? Don't you think this is also a part of the change that has to occur? I know you yourself do not identify as an activist, but I'm sure you appreciate the work of those who do, in this realm especially.  

C_A specifically asked me to hold him accountable, and I think the nature of reality and karma holds us accountable for our actions. Ra was the one who made the statement about restitution. I'm not asking for anyone to bow down and kiss my feet and tell me they apologize, and contrary to what may be perceived, I'm certainly not asking anyone to punish themselves. I'm asking for people to open their eyes and acknowledge that many sexist things have been said and endorsed and they mainly fall on one side of the spectrum, and I'd appreciate it if I wasn't repeatedly being told that what was said wasn't that bad. Because that's really what has me riled up at all anymore. I don't even care about the silly ignorant things that e_s said, I'm bothered more by the gaslighting and perpetuation of the big bad "feminine ideology/gynocentrism" as a straw man continuing in this thread that has actual, real, "men's rights ideologies/androcentrism" displayed in full.
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03-06-2017, 12:59 PM,
#70
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 12:55 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  At the same time, are you not grateful for those who speak up to the factory farmers who are currently engaging in torture? Don't you think this is also a part of the change that has to occur? I know you yourself do not identify as an activist, but I'm sure you appreciate the work of those who do, in this realm especially.  

I do appreciate it. I have never spoken out against activism. I have, however, spoken about blame and how it may not be the best way for things to move forward.

If you have read my posts, you might have seen that I point out activism has its place, creating the breaking of inertia.
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03-06-2017, 01:07 PM,
#71
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 12:59 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(03-06-2017, 12:55 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  At the same time, are you not grateful for those who speak up to the factory farmers who are currently engaging in torture? Don't you think this is also a part of the change that has to occur? I know you yourself do not identify as an activist, but I'm sure you appreciate the work of those who do, in this realm especially.  

I do appreciate it. I have never spoken out against activism. I have, however, spoken about blame and how it may not be the best way for things to move forward.

If you have read my posts, you might have seen that I point out activism has its place, creating the breaking of inertia.

Yes, I have read your posts. But they weren't my main focus in this thread. My main focus was defending women against the accusations that they were too lazy to contribute anything to society, narcissistic airheads, and raping men by deceit by wearing make-up (blog post). Literally some of the most misogynistic things I have seen in a long time, and I saw them posted here on Bring4th. Shocking, but I guess that shows that it IS getting better, because I see it and experience it much less these days. But I'm certainly not going to stand idly by, as a moderator on this STO forum, while someone says things like this about anyone, any group, any thing.
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03-06-2017, 01:08 PM,
#72
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Jade, I think everyone here has misunderstood e_s, or perhaps I am just a fool for being a friend with someone with views like his.

You can infer me to be sexist and you can be mad at me for how I am, but no matter what Jade, I respect you for you, and although right now you might not see this, I want to try and show you by first saying.  I agree with you, I do not know as deeply as you, but I do have an idea and I want b4 to be available to all people, men and women.  That means we all have to be able to share our bias and opinions.  I do want more moderation, I just am surprised to see how it is done so quietly but that is the teams discretion.  I'm going to repost e_s's post 'for the record' so we can all see what this 3 page argument was over, I'll remove all but one blog link so we can have an idea.

I do believe that blog was very insensitive bit it made some valid points on the societal and psychological aspects to the problem of inequality, the messed up part is that blog speaks of women equality through a very arrogant and sure-of-himself tone that makes everything said sound really really bad.

I've found a few similar pages on the blog SMC posted but I don't see direct assaults.

Jade, if it helps, I won't speak regards my admiration for all things female.  I will mend such issues if it means I can make headway with you.  Yes my porn streak is not broken but I no longer watch porn 5+ times a day, its down to once or twice every few days apart, I think that's progress without outright denying aspects of myself.

What you are so caught up on as hate speech, you are asking me to say my friend spoke in hatred.  I don't think he did in a malevolent way with intent to hurt anyone
I think his post was a sign for help and we were unable to do so.

How would you be of service to e_s if he did as I and asked for help?

I don't view calling someone homophobic hate speech, I don't think sharing strong opinions in word form is hate speech.  I think hate speech is spoken with direct assault on an entire demographic.  E_s was expressing his distortions, not trying to be assaulting with them.

I don't know what a faux pas is and patterns are always coming and going.  Help us men, ladies.

When we share something insulting or derogatory and don't seem to even be aware of it, PLEASE, point kt calmly out to us.  We are literally unconscious, unaware, clueless.  We need your help, we need your communication. If we've problems please help us.

I wouldn't call.your example neutral, I'd call it ill-informed.  It doesn't come off as scathing as much as it sounds unaware of the depth of the demographic being spoken of.  Ripe words to show someone needs help.

Please don't yell at us, once aware do you not think we share the shame we push upon women in these ways?

I think my dodging is attempts to avoid escalating conflict, swerving Instead for the route of peace.  I have my opinions but I have been around sexist men long enough to understand a woman's frustration with such a man, maybe not directly but I have seen how disgustingly bad a man can treat women.  I want to help women deal with this, I want to help men not be like this.  This thread is discussing feminine equality so I speak there, do know I think sexism against men is prevalent too.  One sex is not so different from the other to have nothing in common in culture, psyche, and society.

If this thread were about the hurtful ways women treat men I could speak extensively on that topic too but its not, so why is everything I'm saying so upsetting?

Is it that I nullify you by speaking of admiration for you?  Is it that I seem to be dodgy about certain roads of discussion?
Am I just pissing you off by not agreeing with you?
Maybe you view me to be emotionally manipulative.

Whatever it is, I'm here to help and to understand.  I don't think reading opinions on blogs and websites will give me quite the depth I desire to know to be able to empathize with the plight women have to deal with.  I'm sorry if this is viewed as others have labeled it.  I'm personally trying to use catalyst to acquire wisdom and love to better be of aid in these areas.

IF you want to make this personally about me, you can, just know it looks really bad to me to use personal things I've shared in faith with this community to attack or nulify me when I'm trying to better understand something to help other (men) Not be the ways that help perpetuate sexual inequality.

Jade, you're always welcome here.  You're yelling at me and I still stand here with open arms and ears.  I want you to feel welcome here.

Just because I don't think or believe in certain ways should not mean you're unwelcome here.

I personally see a good number of female posters here in comparison to male posters compared to many other forums.  I want all of us to feel welcome as best we can manage.

I'd like us to examine how we could help someome with opinions such as e_s's by reposting his post with some redactions, and then I'd like to discuss how we can aim a person with such things in mind to a more healthy view of women as equal.  The post contains strong views so I ask you to sit with the emotions it evokes, and to find forgiveness. No one needs to be a fighter here, lets all try to keep our compass pointed towards forgiveness.

Some additionals to help with this, e_s's first language is not English, and he lives in or near India I believe.  These filters called language and culture should be considered on an online forum during discussions like this.

Further, again, I think we should all read this with a mindset of forgiveness and a desire to learn how to help such opinions to become better and more equally informed.


earth_spirit Wrote:RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology









(Yesterday, 07:37 PM)Nicholas Wrote: Wrote:My critique of the feminist movement, in general, is that it is failing to teach males about their intrinsic femininity.
...
Again, my main critique of feminism in general is that they are failing to teach males how to act. And they can only do that by talking to males, rather than grouping them all up as patriarchal oppressors.

Sorry, but I am compelled to say you could not make a more obnoxious claim if you tried.
It is up to men to know themselves, not rely on women to teach them who they allegedly are.

Teach males how to act... as if men are mere Toddlers who depend on the matriarchy to break their minds. This is already what has been happening for god knows how many generations.

If you want to know where the abuse starts; trace it back to the source. It is unbelievable how many are missing the fact that mothers (aka women) have first access to the minds of Humanity. Women raise boys to become emotionally fragile providers who crave validation from their female peers. They raise girls to become narcissistic, entitled airheads. Fearing competition, they indoctrinate girls (and consequently boys) into becoming ashamed of their own naked flesh.

Women do this because they are too lazy to work and provide legitimate value. Despite being physically weaker, there are nevertheless many ways they can make contributions to society. Instead they take the path of least resistance by emotionally crippling children to make themselves irreplaceable as the exclusive/primary caregiver.

Notwithstanding female imposed confusion, men do not have a motive to hate/oppress women. They are at worst indifferent to female success. They just don't care:














Quote: Wrote:Haters gonna hate. Disappointingly, she finds that most of the negative comments come from women. "They're trying to shame me," Oxford says, "and it's all from women. Men don't care. A lot of women are like: Oh she's not fat, oh she's cute, she's funny, I hate her."

“If girls think you're attractive, you're either stupid or a whore or a dumb whore. They want to see you fall. They want to see you break. That’s every hater's dream."
- Megan Fox

Mothers inflict pain to sell pain relief. Women are their own oppressors. Men are the face of their abuse as clueless boys are indoctrinated into becoming women's macho proxies.

This man explains it better than I ever could.

http://religionconfidencetrick.blogspot.com.tr/2013/11/men-dont-give-birth.html
[REDACTED]
















On anohter note, I consider both "masculinity" or "femininity" to be at best culturally ephemeral, ambiguous nonsense. Far as I am concerned, the only legitimate usage of masculine or feminine is anatomical. When people use those terms in a subjective and abstract context, they implicitly expect everyone to have a telekinetic link to their brain stem so as to grasp exactly what they mean.








Raw Materials for a Theory of the Young-Girl (Tiqqun) Wrote: Wrote:As substantial identities, "manliness" and "femininity" are no more than convenient tools in the spectacular management of social relations. They are the fetishes necessary for the circulation and consumption of other fetishes.


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I don't see hate speech here, I see a very strong bias.  What kind of freaks me out is how i recognize these examples like inflicting pain to sell pain relief. That sums up my mother quite well among other examples.  Some women do do the things said here.  Its like I have to live with men objectifying women, you should recognize that you have to live with women who actually do do these things.  Its very ugly and I see why its considered derogatory towards women, but it doesn't change the fact that there is some truth to those views...  That women can be just as damaging to men as men can be to women.

So far in this thread we have seen many labels tacked onto each sex by the opposite sex.  We seekers are also human, not one of us is better than the rest even if we hold ourselves to 'higher' standards.

Ladies, there are men with such views.  You will need to deal with us one day to achieve equality, other men will need to deal with such men in the same way.  This all applies in reverse too.  There are women who do as e_s said, and one day we'll have to deal with it all too.

Man and woman have much to work on together...Let's attempt to keep this road of teaching each other how to better treat one another equally, a calm one.

Or kill me, either way I'm not giving up on a peaceful way of discussing this extremely relevant issue.

Finally, I am trying to be honest and open without being outright destructive to my own privacy that I reserve myself.  If you think I'm holding back or being tricky, please say so and I'll attempt to be more transparent and concise.

I'll also be asking for your honest and hopefully calm input as I begin discussing later today in this thread, some of the things I see others saying as being insulting, but I don't want to approach them as if they were, and instead would like to explain to them why, how, and if we can't come to a different conclusion on some hurtful comments.

I'll be doing the same for e_s's post to try and be an example as a man, of how men can help other men.

ESPECIALLY IN REGARD TO: Male AND Female rights. Not just one side but both.

...wish me luck.
(A snow cone sounds lovely right about now v-v)
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
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03-06-2017, 01:11 PM,
#73
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 12:25 PM)Diana Wrote:  compassion for the abusers would be helpful in healing the entire situation.

I think this is the most important step to healing in areas like this...
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
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03-06-2017, 01:50 PM,
#74
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 11:22 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  A similar instance that compounds this one was when a poster hypothetically threatened to rape me while reading the Ra material to me - and back then, everyone also thought I was overreacting. But it's obvious from this thread that this is not the case, and I feel this strongly.

for those that missed it, i'll provide a bit of context:

jade posted, "Infringing on free will while incarnated involves forcing someone to do something they don't want to - like holding them down and forcing them to listen to you talk about wanderers."

hot imagery from jade there, amirite?  Wink

then someone replied & took it further (to make their point) & said something along the lines of, 'well i disagree i think it wouldn't be infringing on your free will even if i raped you until your brain leaked while forcing you to listen to the ra material.'

jade explained why she thought that comment to her should be removed & she received 7 likes.

after jade's post i posted, "i thought the rape comment was just an innocent attempt to be funny & silly..." how many likes did i receive? zero, zip, zilch, nada. the person that wrote the comment to her apologized. the post she wanted removed got reported - by a male. why jade is claiming that everyone thought she overreacted i don't know.

to make my post more on topic i guess i'll throw in some things:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2015/aug/11/natalie-dormer-game-of-thrones-men-objectified-women-tv

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/12/kellyanne-conway-feminists-attacking-women-cats-twitter-picture-video/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/10/31/huffpo-muhammad-historys-first-feminist/

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/feminist-mother-rejects-infant-son-because-of-his-gender/

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/creating-the-white-tribe/

https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2017/02/16/free-bleeding-yoga-just-when-you-thought-feminism-couldnt-get-any-worse/

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BountifulFrenchIcelandicsheepdog-mobile.mp4

http://imgur.com/sNzfa9w

[Image: 0d4267ee54771b5561db75c4af3e70c3.jpg]

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[Image: E5BkUBj.jpg]

[Image: 13ef8e81ec3d48248e7c69c79b726d6a?fit=max...4dfe7a4435]

http://womenagainstfeminism.com/

"I am all that has been, and is, and shall be..."
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03-06-2017, 01:59 PM,
#75
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-03-2017, 07:37 PM)Nicholas Wrote:  Camille Paglia is a feminist that has been ostracised from the feminist movement. And I suspect it is because she is too in touch with her masculinity. 

I too am a Paglia fanboy! I love heterodox thinkers who can articulate the edge cases of ideologies.

(03-03-2017, 07:37 PM)Nicholas Wrote:  My critique of the feminist movement, in general, is that it is failing to teach males about their intrinsic femininity. It is not so much that we need more female leaders (good luck with that agenda!). A more realistic goal is that we need more leaders that are conscious of their own feminine quality. The physical gender type is actually irrelevant imo. 

That's a good way of putting it. Unfortunately, I don't think "political movements" are generally very adept at reaching people at that kind of subtle, personal level.

I tend to look askance at the idea of gender essentialism -- the view that women are essentially X, or men are essentially Y, etc. -- mostly because it misses the point. Whatever most men or women are, and however that biases us, the point is to look at individuals instead of abstract instantiations of group stereotypes. Our brains our built to stereotype, to make quick decisions based on past data and generalizing. The point is not to change this way of thinking, but to understand that's how we think so we can ensure we bring our attention and empathy to the situation in spite of our bias. This line of thinking also informs my view on transgender issues, where the essentialist view rubs up against someone like de Beauvoir's ideas of gender as a performance.

Quote:Again, my main critique of feminism in general is that they are failing to teach males how to act. And they can only do that by talking to males, rather than grouping them all up as patriarchal oppressors.

Yeah, and this gets exploited because it's useful. By not teaching men and basically waiting for them to make the mistakes that our culture inculcates in them, we have set up a permanent aggressor and permanent victim class to endlessly legislate. Do we really believe these issues are going to be solved legally or politically?

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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03-06-2017, 02:04 PM,
#76
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-04-2017, 12:50 AM)Glow Wrote:  I'm really appalled that so many men here are unaware of exactly WHY we need to start celebrating women.

I'm stinking amazed. We are one. Look at how women even in first world nations are degraded. Tell me guys do you want to be treated like sex objects, like your very value depends on how you measure up to a standard men created for you.

Look at politics Hollywood you name it. No matter what a woman does she is judged for how she looks while men(other than Trump)  can look how ever they want to and be judged on their merit alone.

SMC often mentioned the boys club here. I didn't see it but jeeze I guess I was seeing you through my we are all one filter and anyone who truely believed that would certainly see women have been getting the short end if the stick for as long as recorded time goes.

I get the frustration, but these are very fraught topics that require a good deal more love and wisdom than any of us have, I'd wager.  The same empathy I show to oppressed groups I try to show to oppressor groups, because ultimately I believe these are reciprocal relationships that benefit from a good deal of exploration and the uncovering of pain.  I think there's been a lot of exploring the worldview and concerns of supporters of Trump, for instance, that has opened people's eyes to the fact that usually when we disagree on a policy matter it is not an accurate reflection of the substance of our opinion.  In other words, extremely few feminists simply hate men, and extremely few anti-feminists simply hate women, but if you only went off the rhetoric and posturing you could easily form that conclusion.  It's a messy task to dig in and really start to open up to people who seem so different.  Have patience with us, Glow!

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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03-06-2017, 02:19 PM,
#77
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 12:55 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  At the same time, are you not grateful for those who speak up to the factory farmers who are currently engaging in torture? Don't you think this is also a part of the change that has to occur?

To elbow my way into the conversation in a very mannish way Smile I am grateful to them, but I also recognize that they are fully invested in that particular instance of activism. It doesn't mean any of their particular, individual approaches apply to every single event or happening that I might encounter. To make a larger point: I don't think we can apply mechanical rules to these deep pockets of fear and pain. I think a lot of what feminists hate about patriarchy AND what anti-feminists hate about "movement feminism" is the rigidity of the ideological approaches that make everything so inhuman and unapproachable.

I commend the people in this thread for engaging each other, for letting it all hang out. Use this triggering and catalyst well! This is where the work is. If it feels unsafe and scary, it may just be an opportunity to learn a lesson you came here to learn. We're all one and we learn a lot more from seeing our reflection in the funhouse mirror than just chatting with people with whom we already agree. Smile

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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03-06-2017, 02:23 PM,
#78
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 01:07 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  But I'm certainly not going to stand idly by, as a moderator on this STO forum, while someone says things like this about anyone, any group, any thing.

You have a tough job, Jade, and I support however you choose to moderate this topic.

I just ask that everybody have some compassion for the person espousing the view that seems so unacceptable.

What can this conversation expose about yourself that you didn't already recognize? Can you open up to an alternative view without losing yourself?

It's just… I'd love to see this forum, when these infrequent spats happen, be a kind of "practice session" for dealing with catalyst and expressing love. Just an ideal of mine. Smile

Jeremy
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It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
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03-06-2017, 02:23 PM,
#79
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 01:08 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote:  Jade, I think everyone here has misunderstood e_s, or perhaps I am just a fool for being a friend with someone with views like his.

You can infer me to be sexist and you can be mad at me for how I am, but no matter what Jade, I respect you for you, and although right now you might not see this, I want to try and show you by first saying.  I agree with you, I do not know as deeply as you, but I do have an idea and I want b4 to be available to all people, men and women.  That means we all have to be able to share our bias and opinions.  I do want more moderation, I just am surprised to see how it is done so quietly but that is the teams discretion.  I'm going to repost e_s's post 'for the record' so we can all see what this 3 page argument was over, I'll remove all but one blog link so we can have an idea.

I do believe that blog was very insensitive bit it made some valid points on the societal and psychological aspects to the problem of inequality, the messed up part is that blog speaks of women equality through a very arrogant and sure-of-himself tone that makes everything said sound really really bad.

I've found a few similar pages on the blog SMC posted but I don't see direct assaults.

Jade, if it helps, I won't speak regards my admiration for all things female.  I will mend such issues if it means I can make headway with you.  Yes my porn streak is not broken but I no longer watch porn 5+ times a day, its down to once or twice every few days apart, I think that's progress without outright denying aspects of myself.

What you are so caught up on as hate speech, you are asking me to say my friend spoke in hatred.  I don't think he did in a malevolent way with intent to hurt anyone
I think his post was a sign for help and we were unable to do so.

How would you be of service to e_s if he did as I and asked for help?

I don't view calling someone homophobic hate speech, I don't think sharing strong opinions in word form is hate speech.  I think hate speech is spoken with direct assault on an entire demographic.  E_s was expressing his distortions, not trying to be assaulting with them.

I don't know what a faux pas is and patterns are always coming and going.  Help us men, ladies.

When we share something insulting or derogatory and don't seem to even be aware of it, PLEASE, point kt calmly out to us.  We are literally unconscious, unaware, clueless.  We need your help, we need your communication. If we've problems please help us.

I wouldn't call.your example neutral, I'd call it ill-informed.  It doesn't come off as scathing as much as it sounds unaware of the depth of the demographic being spoken of.  Ripe words to show someone needs help.

Please don't yell at us, once aware do you not think we share the shame we push upon women in these ways?

I think my dodging is attempts to avoid escalating conflict, swerving Instead for the route of peace.  I have my opinions but I have been around sexist men long enough to understand a woman's frustration with such a man, maybe not directly but I have seen how disgustingly bad a man can treat women.  I want to help women deal with this, I want to help men not be like this.  This thread is discussing feminine equality so I speak there, do know I think sexism against men is prevalent too.  One sex is not so different from the other to have nothing in common in culture, psyche, and society.

If this thread were about the hurtful ways women treat men I could speak extensively on that topic too but its not, so why is everything I'm saying so upsetting?

Is it that I nullify you by speaking of admiration for you?  Is it that I seem to be dodgy about certain roads of discussion?
Am I just pissing you off by not agreeing with you?
Maybe you view me to be emotionally manipulative.

Whatever it is, I'm here to help and to understand.  I don't think reading opinions on blogs and websites will give me quite the depth I desire to know to be able to empathize with the plight women have to deal with.  I'm sorry if this is viewed as others have labeled it.  I'm personally trying to use catalyst to acquire wisdom and love to better be of aid in these areas.

IF you want to make this personally about me, you can, just know it looks really bad to me to use personal things I've shared in faith with this community to attack or nulify me when I'm trying to better understand something to help other (men) Not be the ways that help perpetuate sexual inequality.

Jade, you're always welcome here.  You're yelling at me and I still stand here with open arms and ears.  I want you to feel welcome here.

Just because I don't think or believe in certain ways should not mean you're unwelcome here.

I personally see a good number of female posters here in comparison to male posters compared to many other forums.  I want all of us to feel welcome as best we can manage.

I'd like us to examine how we could help someome with opinions such as e_s's by reposting his post with some redactions, and then I'd like to discuss how we can aim a person with such things in mind to a more healthy view of women as equal.  The post contains strong views so I ask you to sit with the emotions it evokes, and to find forgiveness. No one needs to be a fighter here, lets all try to keep our compass pointed towards forgiveness.

Some additionals to help with this, e_s's first language is not English, and he lives in or near India I believe.  These filters called language and culture should be considered on an online forum during discussions like this.

Further, again, I think we should all read this with a mindset of forgiveness and a desire to learn how to help such opinions to become better and more equally informed.



earth_spirit Wrote:RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology










(Yesterday, 07:37 PM)Nicholas Wrote: Wrote:My critique of the feminist movement, in general, is that it is failing to teach males about their intrinsic femininity.
...
Again, my main critique of feminism in general is that they are failing to teach males how to act. And they can only do that by talking to males, rather than grouping them all up as patriarchal oppressors.

Sorry, but I am compelled to say you could not make a more obnoxious claim if you tried.
It is up to men to know themselves, not rely on women to teach them who they allegedly are.

Teach males how to act... as if men are mere Toddlers who depend on the matriarchy to break their minds. This is already what has been happening for god knows how many generations.

If you want to know where the abuse starts; trace it back to the source. It is unbelievable how many are missing the fact that mothers (aka women) have first access to the minds of Humanity. Women raise boys to become emotionally fragile providers who crave validation from their female peers. They raise girls to become narcissistic, entitled airheads. Fearing competition, they indoctrinate girls (and consequently boys) into becoming ashamed of their own naked flesh.

Women do this because they are too lazy to work and provide legitimate value. Despite being physically weaker, there are nevertheless many ways they can make contributions to society. Instead they take the path of least resistance by emotionally crippling children to make themselves irreplaceable as the exclusive/primary caregiver.

Notwithstanding female imposed confusion, men do not have a motive to hate/oppress women. They are at worst indifferent to female success. They just don't care:















Quote: Wrote:Haters gonna hate. Disappointingly, she finds that most of the negative comments come from women. "They're trying to shame me," Oxford says, "and it's all from women. Men don't care. A lot of women are like: Oh she's not fat, oh she's cute, she's funny, I hate her."

“If girls think you're attractive, you're either stupid or a whore or a dumb whore. They want to see you fall. They want to see you break. That’s every hater's dream."
- Megan Fox

Mothers inflict pain to sell pain relief. Women are their own oppressors. Men are the face of their abuse as clueless boys are indoctrinated into becoming women's macho proxies.

This man explains it better than I ever could.

http://religionconfidencetrick.blogspot.com.tr/2013/11/men-dont-give-birth.html
[REDACTED]

















On anohter note, I consider both "masculinity" or "femininity" to be at best culturally ephemeral, ambiguous nonsense. Far as I am concerned, the only legitimate usage of masculine or feminine is anatomical. When people use those terms in a subjective and abstract context, they implicitly expect everyone to have a telekinetic link to their brain stem so as to grasp exactly what they mean.









Raw Materials for a Theory of the Young-Girl (Tiqqun) Wrote: Wrote:As substantial identities, "manliness" and "femininity" are no more than convenient tools in the spectacular management of social relations. They are the fetishes necessary for the circulation and consumption of other fetishes.


[Image: postbit_find.gif]

[Image: postbit_l_add.gif] [Image: postbit_quote.gif]

I don't see hate speech here, I see a very strong bias.  What kind of freaks me out is how i recognize these examples like inflicting pain to sell pain relief. That sums up my mother quite well among other examples.  Some women do do the things said here.  Its like I have to live with men objectifying women, you should recognize that you have to live with women who actually do do these things.  Its very ugly and I see why its considered derogatory towards women, but it doesn't change the fact that there is some truth to those views...  That women can be just as damaging to men as men can be to women.

So far in this thread we have seen many labels tacked onto each sex by the opposite sex.  We seekers are also human, not one of us is better than the rest even if we hold ourselves to 'higher' standards.

Ladies, there are men with such views.  You will need to deal with us one day to achieve equality, other men will need to deal with such men in the same way.  This all applies in reverse too.  There are women who do as e_s said, and one day we'll have to deal with it all too.

Man and woman have much to work on together...Let's attempt to keep this road of teaching each other how to better treat one another equally, a calm one.

Or kill me, either way I'm not giving up on a peaceful way of discussing this extremely relevant issue.

Finally, I am trying to be honest and open without being outright destructive to my own privacy that I reserve myself.  If you think I'm holding back or being tricky, please say so and I'll attempt to be more transparent and concise.

I'll also be asking for your honest and hopefully calm input as I begin discussing later today in this thread, some of the things I see others saying as being insulting, but I don't want to approach them as if they were, and instead would like to explain to them why, how, and if we can't come to a different conclusion on some hurtful comments.

I'll be doing the same for e_s's post to try and be an example as a man, of how men can help other men.

ESPECIALLY IN REGARD TO: Male AND Female rights.  Not just one side but both.

...wish me luck.
(A snow cone sounds lovely right about now v-v)

well, not sure about the definition of hate speech.
But now Reading e_e's original post, i have to say it's some of the worst stuff i've come across in a while.
i Never would have expected something like this on this forum.

to me it indicates very Deep emotional wounds with not the slightest bit of awareness about it.
and i perfectly understand why people, especially women, feel really attacked by this.
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03-06-2017, 02:30 PM,
#80
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Dear isis, is this a serious post??
i didnt read the links, i was put of by the "breitbart" Link enough.
what so you want to say with These very funny images?

is it provocating or does it really reflect your opinion?
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03-06-2017, 02:46 PM,
#81
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 02:23 PM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  well, not sure about the definition of hate speech.
But now Reading e_e's original post, i have to say it's some of the worst stuff i've come across in a while.
i Never would have expected something like this on this forum.

I'm seeing a lot of replies like this in this thread, as if Bring4th is some paragon of virtue and harmony. That's… never been my experience. I expect for things in the human condition that disturb me to show up in the spiritual community because any further expectation would put us on a pedestal.

We are not here because we're better human beings. We are here because we're interested in the way our lives are part of a process of spirituality and spiritual evolution, I believe. What's unique isn't our tuning or our superior politics but our willingness to see the other as the Creator, as the self. And yes, sometimes we don't do that perfectly, because we came here not to do it perfectly and learn as a result.

We all disagree with each other on some topics, surely. We'll probably part ways disagreeing. That doesn't strike me as so material, though. How can we use these disagreements to better appreciate our common heritage in the Creator? Can we practice in this arena behaviors and thought patterns that will help us in the real world among people who don't share our philosophy?

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
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03-06-2017, 03:11 PM,
#82
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 01:50 PM)isis Wrote:  then someone replied & took it further (to make their point) & said something along the lines of, 'well i disagree i think it wouldn't be infringing on your free will even if i raped you until your brain leaked while forcing you to listen to the ra material.'

Ah that does sound really messed up though, really graphic and vivid like a murder/rape scenario.

I want you to know Jade, no one's going to let that happen to you.  Rape and murders won't be happening if we have anything to say or do about it.

Listen, I don't just see the female form, I see something much more deeper than male or female, I see Creator.  I am trying all the time to see that in everyone.  I see you as much more than any anatomy.  You are a soul, you're like me.  I wouldn't want you to be disrespected in any way, I wouldn't want to be shamed, humiliated, or objectified and treated solely on my body.  I have a mind, its infinite exactly like yours with some unique differences but mostly similarities.  We have spirit.  I don't intend for you to ever be hurt by our discussions and I am sorry for my behavior and how I've hurt you.

Just know I will always respect you and defend your right to speak your opinion, even if I disagree with it, exactly like I do with e_s.

Isis, Thank you for providing this insight, I feel like a big insensitive ass right now.

I truly believe e_s's tone was misunderstood, that he does not view people like Jade or Glow or SMC as lazy and unmotivated or manipulative, and perhaps was speaking about the women around his reflections of reality, projecting what he see's in those who mistreat him as potentially, not literally, possible and occurring in anyone.

That doesn't make it okay regardless perhaps for him to be so blunt about it, but it is done and we can tell him how hurtful his view is and how hurtful it is overall to equality.   We needn't attack each other with accusations even when they are seen and felt.

Like for instance, Nich, I personally believe that Feminism is at its core, about Equality between Man and Woman.  I think there are extremists in the feminist movement, and I think they do as you say, but I don't think all of Feminism is an assault on the immaturity of masculinity.  I think it was well of you to mention this, and I just wanted to offer my own views because I do find it somewhat insulting to reduce an entire ideology down to being an assault on another ideology (masculinity).  But I think you have a right to say what you have said, and I don't judge you for it.  I think you think that way for a reason, especially since  I once felt those ways about the feminist movement before realizing I was a feminist in the sense that I share their desire for equality, not the extremists, but those women who just want to be treated fair and humanely.  To be cherished and respected as equals just as they cherish and view us as equals.

I don't think that's asking for a lot as an ideology, and I urge you to not let extreme examples deter you from considering the root desire that spawned those extreme distortions, which in this case, was a desire to be treated equally.

We all need to have compassion for each other to get anywhere with ourselves on these topics.

I'm glad everyone is participating and we're all sharing, I know it might be shocking and disturbing to some, even so we need to all communicate and work together towards coming to better understand one another as equals and not boys and girls or victims and abusers or anything less than wholly unique individuals with more in common than we have differences.

Sorry if I'm being obnoxious, just trying to help steer some energies towards forgiveness.  We all probably have things to forgive of ourselves and others in regards to sexuality and equality of the sexes, even if small little things, we all are capable of being the oppressor, so its up to us to make motions to be fair and open and compromising.  All of us, not just women or men.
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Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
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03-06-2017, 03:12 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-06-2017, 03:14 PM by Elros.)
#83
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 02:23 PM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  to me it indicates very Deep emotional wounds with not the slightest bit of awareness about it.
and i perfectly understand why people, especially women, feel really attacked by this.

Is this not what most of this thread is though? Wounds clashing wounds?

I didn't see anyone attempt at understanding e_s in his wounds, in his pain (except Van, you go Van!), no one attempt at helping him have a more healthy view of it all. There's just been reactions of others being triggered in their own wounds and as such there is no seeking to understand one another but instead a desire to label right and wrong in one another.

Beyond seemingly disharmony in-between male and female, they forever remain united in an intertwined dance and this will only be seen through distilling perceived disharmony. But little do desire to perceive harmony where they perceive disharmony, little do desire to perceive right where they perceive wrong, little do desire to become and feel more than their wounds.



@Jade
I think a STO forum should promote the free expression of what is felt by the self and not seek to control nor repress this expression because what is felt will remain but will be reinforced by the rejection of its expression. Rather than dismissing another's view and feelings as unwelcome, how about exploring it alongside the person to see it grow?

But perhaps the nature of a STO forum lie in it's ability to control catalyst and repress the naturally occuring balancing processes among individuals. Perhaps under a great enough control, we could sincerely feel one another to be more positive than we truly are because we all lack an actual clear and truthful picture of one another?

I thought this forum was about moving toward 4D which is a density where thoughts and feelings are not hidden but instead balanced through transparency.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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03-06-2017, 03:35 PM,
#84
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  Is this not what most of this thread is though? Wounds clashing wounds?

Yup. Exactly.

(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  I didn't see anyone attempt at understanding e_s in his wounds, in his pain (except Van, you go Van!), no one attempt at helping him have a more healthy view of it all. There's just been reactions of others being triggered in their own wounds and as such there is no seeking to understand one another but instead a desire to label right and wrong in one another.

I can't disagree with this. But everybody did the best they could--even earth_spirit, I firmly believe this. We will always come up short. I just hope we can take a lesson from it, explore those triggered, hurting parts of ourselves. They need love, not correctitude.

(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  I think a STO forum should promote the free expression of what is felt by the self and not seek to control nor repress this expression because what is felt will remain but will be reinforced by the rejection of its expression. Rather than dismissing another's view and feelings as unwelcome, how about exploring it alongside the person to see it grow?

While I share your opinion, keep in mind that Jade has a duty not only to us and the Confederation but also towards L/L Research. They have set certain guidelines and Jade is obliged to act according to them.

This should not be seen as a problem, though: just like any shortcoming, it's an opportunity to be creative and to demonstrate love in a way that the rules can't touch!

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
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03-07-2017, 12:35 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-07-2017, 01:12 AM by isis.)
#85
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
[Image: quote-oppressed-people-cannot-remain-opp...-73-84.jpg]

"I am all that has been, and is, and shall be..."
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03-07-2017, 01:47 AM,
#86
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-06-2017, 03:35 PM)jeremy6d Wrote:  
(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  Is this not what most of this thread is though? Wounds clashing wounds?

Yup. Exactly.



(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  I didn't see anyone attempt at understanding e_s in his wounds, in his pain (except Van, you go Van!), no one attempt at helping him have a more healthy view of it all. There's just been reactions of others being triggered in their own wounds and as such there is no seeking to understand one another but instead a desire to label right and wrong in one another.

I can't disagree with this.  But everybody did the best they could--even earth_spirit, I firmly believe this.  We will always come up short.  I just hope we can take a lesson from it, explore those triggered, hurting parts of ourselves.  They need love, not correctitude.



(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  I think a STO forum should promote the free expression of what is felt by the self and not seek to control nor repress this expression because what is felt will remain but will be reinforced by the rejection of its expression. Rather than dismissing another's view and feelings as unwelcome, how about exploring it alongside the person to see it grow?

While I share your opinion, keep in mind that Jade has a duty not only to us and the Confederation but also towards L/L Research.  They have set certain guidelines and Jade is obliged to act according to them.

This should not be seen as a problem, though: just like any shortcoming, it's an opportunity to be creative and to demonstrate love in a way that the rules can't touch!

I was not sure at first this was relevant to this thread but after all it might be a little, and it's interesting anyway.   I am sure there is some pain in it expressed which could be close to e_s pain

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03-09-2017, 11:13 PM,
#87
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Quote:Tue Mar 7, 2017 | 7:23am EST
One in five believe women inferior to men: global survey
By Lin Taylor

LONDON (Thomson Reuters Foundation) - One in five people around the world believe women are inferior to men and should stay at home, and that men are more capable in the workplace and at school, according to a global survey released on Tuesday.

Nearly all of the 17,550 people surveyed agreed that men and women should have equal rights, but three in four respondents said women still experienced social, political and financial inequality.

"It's encouraging that the vast majority of both men and women around the world believe in equal opportunity ... but at the same time most still believe that true equality of rights is not here yet," said Kully Kaur-Ballagan, director at Ipsos MORI that carried out the poll.

Across 24 countries, including Brazil, Canada, Russia, Britain, India and Sweden, more than half of those interviewed by Ipsos MORI called themselves a "feminist", but a quarter said they were "scared" to speak up for women's rights.

Around half of those polled in China, Russia and India said men were superior to women and better at earning money and at attaining education, according to the survey, which was released to tie in with International Women's Day on Wednesday.

UN Women has described the global gender pay gap of 24 percent as "the biggest robber" of women.

The World Economic Forum said in its 2016 gender gap index that men and women will not reach economic equality for another 170 years.

(Reporting by Lin Taylor @linnytayls, Editing by Ros Russell; Please credit the Thomson Reuters Foundation, the charitable arm of Thomson Reuters that covers humanitarian issues, conflicts, global land and property rights, modern slavery and human trafficking, women's rights, climate change and resilience. Visit news.trust.org to see more stories)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-womens-day-attitudes-idUSKBN16E1FR
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03-09-2017, 11:18 PM,
#88
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3853/Three-in-four-women-around-the-world-believe-there-are-unequal-rights-in-their-country.aspx

Quote:Three in four women around the world believe there are unequal rights in their country
Ipsos Global @dvisor
Published:7 March 2017
Fieldwork:20 January - 3 February 2017
Theme:Gender
Keywords:Equal opportunities, Equality, feminism, Gender, Women
(Click on keywords to find related Research)

   Nine in ten men and women say they believe in equal opportunities
   But three-quarters of women say inequality still exists in their country and 40% of women say they personally don’t have equality
   One in five men and women think women are inferior to men, which increases to almost half in India and Russia
   One in four men and women say they are scared to speak out for equal rights

On the eve of International Women’s Day, new data from Ipsos Global @dvisor shows that although the vast majority in 24 countries around the world say they believe men and women should be treated equally (88% on average), most still think the current situation is one of inequality in terms of social, political and/or economic rights (72% on average). Women though are more positive when it comes to their own lives – six in ten on average agree they have “full equality with men in their country and the freedom to reach their full dreams and aspirations” – although this still means that in several countries many women disagree.
Quote:The survey, among online adults aged under 65 in Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Britain, Germany, Hungary, India, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Peru, Poland, Russia, Serbia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey and the United States also finds a majority on average define themselves as a feminist (58% on average), even though a quarter (24%) say they are scared to speak up for equal rights – especially in India. Around one in five on average say they believe women are inferior to men or that women should just stay at home, although it is higher in India and Russia in particular. Key findings – including the main differences between countries and between men and women, are outlined below:
Does equality exist?

   Nine in ten around the world (88% on average) say they believe in equal opportunities for men and women, and the figure is high among both men and women (86% and 89% respectively). A clear majority in each of the 24 countries believes in this (lowest in Japan at 71%).
   However, 72% on average say that inequality currently exists in terms of social, political, and/or economic rights, especially women (by 76% to 68% of men). Again, a majority in every country believes inequality exists, with the exception of Russia at only 42%.
   Women are more positive personally though. On average, 60% agree that they have full equality with men in their country and the freedom to achieve their full dreams and aspirations – but 40% disagree. However, in seven of the 24 countries a majority of women disagree, especially in Spain, Japan, South Korea and Turkey.

Standing up for equal rights

   On average, six in ten (58%) across the 24 countries say they would define themselves as feminist, with women more likely to do so than men (by 62% to 55%). Less than half though in Germany, Russia, Japan and Hungary would call themselves feminist.
   Most (68%) also claim to actively support women’s rights by speaking up to change things rather than just thinking about them (although this falls to just 28% in Japan). Men are just as likely as women to say they actively speak up for women’s rights, and in some countries (Argentina, Canada, and the US) are even more likely than women to do so.
   However, one in four of both women and men say they are scared to speak up for equal rights for women (26% and 23% respectively). Fear of speaking out among women is especially high in India (54%), Turkey (47%) and Brazil (41%), while in the US more men say they are scared to speak up than women (by 28% to 15%).

Gender roles

   On average, one in five believe that women are inferior to men, or that women should not aspire to do anything outside of the household (18% and 17% respectively). Across the 24 countries as a whole, men are slightly more likely to believe that women should just stay at home (by 19% to 14%), although both genders are equally likely to believe that women are inferior. Attitudes in Russia and India stand out - almost half of those asked in those countries believe that women are inferior to men (46% each), as do one in three (33%) in Serbia.
   A similar proportion, 25% on average, believe men are more capable of doing things in society such as working, earning money, being educated and teaching than women. Again, men are more likely to agree with this than women (by 29% to 21%), and belief is particularly high in China (56%), Russia (54%) and India (48%).

Kully Kaur-Ballagan, Head of Race, Faith & Cohesion research at Ipsos MORI, said:

   "It's encouraging that the vast majority of both men and women around the world believe in equal opportunity ... but at the same time most still believe that true equality of rights is not here yet."

Quote:Technical note

In total 17,551 adults aged 18-64 in the US and Canada, and age 16-64 in all other countries, were interviewed between January 20th - February 3rd, 2017. The survey was conducted in 24 countries around the world via the Ipsos Online Panel system (Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Great Britain, Germany, Hungary, India, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Peru, Poland, Russia, Serbia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey and the United States of America). Approximately 1000+ individuals participated in each country with the exception of Argentina, Belgium, Hungary, India, Mexico, Peru, Poland, Russia, Serbia, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden and Turkey, where each have a sample approximately 500+. The precision of Ipsos online polls are calculated using a credibility interval with a poll of 1,000 accurate to +/- 3.5 percentage points and of 500 accurate to +/- 5.0 percentage points. For more information on the Ipsos use of credibility intervals, please visit the Ipsos website.
Data are weighted to match the profile of the population. In countries where internet penetration is approximately 60% or higher the data output generally reflects the overall population. 16 of the 24 countries surveyed generate nationally representative samples in their countries (Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Poland, Serbia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, and United States). Brazil, China, India, Mexico, Peru, Russia, South Africa and Turkey produce a national sample that is more urban & educated, and with higher incomes than their fellow citizens.
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03-09-2017, 11:24 PM,
#89
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/09/519438460/iceland-plans-to-become-worlds-first-country-to-require-equal-pay-for-women
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03-10-2017, 02:12 AM,
#90
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-09-2017, 11:13 PM)SMC Wrote:  
Quote:Tue Mar 7, 2017 | 7:23am EST
One in five believe women inferior to men: global survey
By Lin Taylor

LONDON (Thomson Reuters Foundation) - One in five people around the world believe women are inferior to men and should stay at home, and that men are more capable in the workplace and at school, according to a global survey released on Tuesday.

Nearly all of the 17,550 people surveyed agreed that men and women should have equal rights, but three in four respondents said women still experienced social, political and financial inequality.

"It's encouraging that the vast majority of both men and women around the world believe in equal opportunity ... but at the same time most still believe that true equality of rights is not here yet," said Kully Kaur-Ballagan, director at Ipsos MORI that carried out the poll.

Across 24 countries, including Brazil, Canada, Russia, Britain, India and Sweden, more than half of those interviewed by Ipsos MORI called themselves a "feminist", but a quarter said they were "scared" to speak up for women's rights.

Around half of those polled in China, Russia and India said men were superior to women and better at earning money and at attaining education, according to the survey, which was released to tie in with International Women's Day on Wednesday.

UN Women has described the global gender pay gap of 24 percent as "the biggest robber" of women.

The World Economic Forum said in its 2016 gender gap index that men and women will not reach economic equality for another 170 years.

(Reporting by Lin Taylor @linnytayls, Editing by Ros Russell; Please credit the Thomson Reuters Foundation, the charitable arm of Thomson Reuters that covers humanitarian issues, conflicts, global land and property rights, modern slavery and human trafficking, women's rights, climate change and resilience. Visit news.trust.org to see more stories)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-womens-day-attitudes-idUSKBN16E1FR

It's sad isn't it?  Equality shouldn't be so hard Sad

SMC, won't you provide to us your feelings and opinions on these things?  Your input is greatly desired by me, as I also hope Jade will return to this thread and overlook the perceived bigotry here to try and help teach us how to better see the female as equal to male and vice versa, as I hope of you too.

I know this thread is inundated with insensitivity, and I realize how hurtful it is be subjected to such things...But between you and Jade, and anyone else who desires equality, and wishes to speak for equality and to teach equality, I pray you will all not hold your tongue.

As it goes...

Pray tell, women of b4, do not suppress yourselves in fear.  I will stand with you even if we disagree, because you are as much free, welcome, and respected, as I'd hope anyone would feel towards myself.  We are all the creator here, I desperately want to learn from another directly how I can be of service to the manifestation of equality between the sexes.  I do not believe I can manage this without the very important and desired input any of you have to offer.

Tell us dudes how wrong we are, explain it to us, help us uncover our eyes and see!  We all came to this thread hoping to discuss feminism and the most prominent energy about it is equality between women and men.

Please, share with us.  We are reaching out to you now, as the male principle is said to do.  Please come back.  We will do better, or at the very least. I will do better.
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