The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
03-10-2017, 07:49 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017, 08:01 AM by smc. Edit Reason: small addition )
#91
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
SMC, won't you provide to us your feelings and opinions on these things?  I have already - I don't wish to anymore. It's exhausting.

Your input is greatly desired by me, (well that's all about you - so - get that need of yours met by doing the work to learn without expecting a woman to educate a man about how patriarchy abuses women.

as I also hope Jade will return to this thread and overlook the perceived bigotry ("perceived" ? the bigotry is actual bigotry)

here to try and help teach us how to better see the female as equal to male and vice versa, as I hope of you too.
again - time for you to do the learning yourself. I've given you resources.

I know this thread is inundated with insensitivity, and I realize how hurtful it is be subjected to such things...But between you and Jade, and anyone else who desires equality, and wishes to speak for equality and to teach equality, I pray you will all not hold your tongue.

I don't think we're 'holding our tongue"  - I think we've had enough

As it goes...

Pray tell, women of b4, do not suppress yourselves in fear.
 Good lord! - again - this is not happening - the women feeling fear will have never said a single word on these forums

I will stand with you even if we disagree, because you are as much free, welcome, and respected, as I'd hope anyone would feel towards myself.  We are all the creator here, I desperately want to learn from another directly how I can be of service to the manifestation of equality between the sexes.  I do not believe I can manage this without the very important and desired input any of you have to offer.

This is not true - and the appeal to our emotions is patently emotionally manipulative.

Tell us dudes how wrong we are, explain it to us, help us uncover our eyes and see!  we did that already

We all came to this thread hoping to discuss feminism (debatable) and the most prominent energy about it is equality between women and men.

Please, share with us.  We are reaching out to you now,
you are - (there is no "we") as the male principle is said to do.  Please come back.  We will do better, or at the very least. I will do better.


------------------


C_A that you still feel it's appropriate to continue asking for selfless efforts from those so harshly spoken of - in itself says a great deal about how men expect women to always reconcile, arbitrate, mediate, inform, persuade, reason with, placate, educate, their oppressors.

I recognise the sincere good will in your wish for further learning; but after the sickening posts by some to this thread it's insensitive to ask those (effectively) verbally attacked - to continue to give time and energy to this thread - especially given the strong likelihood that we'd have to read further abusive ideas.

It was International Women's Day yesterday - yet not a thread was written here on B4 to acknowledge and to celebrate.

I waited and I watched (and there were dozens of ideas and facts, and initiatives and issues I could have posted about) - but I am so done with the insular and toxic 'echo chamber' that is the forum of B4.

I didn't think it would make any difference - and I just don't need the negativity.

I live as a woman on this planet - so  - please do the work in educating yourself C_A

There are organisations/individuals that will help you.

I've lived through 5 decades of misogyny and sexist abuse - I have no energy to keep arguing that it exists and ruins lives

- let alone that I've been so exhausted and dismayed to find it it here on Bring4th - where (years ago) I first came  - seeking sanctuary.
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03-10-2017, 12:38 PM,
#92
Thumbs Up  RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 07:49 AM)SMC Wrote:  It was International Women's Day yesterday - yet not a thread was written here on B4 to acknowledge and to celebrate.

Congratulation on your choice of having been a woman within this lifetime!

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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03-10-2017, 01:40 PM,
#93
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Most men don't understand the emotional effort that goes into women having to constantly explain and justify their experiences and opinions to men. Men think "I do not experience this so why should I care? Tell me, tell me why I should care." And as SMC pointed out, that's bullshit. Why should the burden always be on the oppressed to prove they experience oppression? Men can and should educate themselves, there's huge amounts of literature on the topic.

Why should people have to participate in discussions that start from the idea that femisism is wrong (posted during women's history month no less)? Why is there any need to justify the movement for social justice and equality? Why are people put on trial for demanding basic human rights? By demanding that the oppressed prove their oppression or shouting down their points you are directly contributing to that oppression.

Women do not enjoy the same level of freedom as men. That is a fact. Feminism may be unpalatable to some or may trigger cognitive dissonance since it goes against your beliefs, but regardless there are MUCH BIGGER ISSUES than whether or not feminism "goes too far." Feminism is necessary until structural gender inequality is rectified, after that you can complain about it going too far.

Meanwhile the real source of oppression is what we should be concerned about, and that is the profit-driven capitalist system which thrives off the oppression of certain sectors of the population.
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03-10-2017, 01:42 PM,
#94
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I am a woman and I think there are things offered by the feminists which make so much sense, and other statements which are just mainly declarations of war. It's difficult mostly because progress too is different in each country. For example, in france, definitely women in general are less paid, any career you look at. A very witty french stockbroker has a hilarious daily blog and every thursday he writes on his blog, remember that ladies stop being paid today by 3 pm. But someone here said something like feminists are ready to see where men are going to fail, that is so true.
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03-10-2017, 02:13 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017, 02:42 PM by Aion.)
#95
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
/scratcheshead

The issue seems to be a fundamentally philosophical one. There are ideologies which are rooted in the ancient past which are at the heart of these issues still today. That is, the ideas of man's dominance over Earth, the many old religious ideas of man's rights over women and in general an attitude that the world is for 'conquering'. Let's keep in mind that there is also a huge case of men abusing men in the same way as women, there are hordes of examples of men sexually and emotionally dominating other men, and many cases of male-male pedophilia. This coupled with the belief that men have a nearly uncontrollable 'drive' makes for a very dangerous set up mentally. However, few people would realize that that is in essence the same as the feminism issue, it is the oppression of those deemed weaker than oneself. That is why men who have been easily controlled and abused have all throughout time been equated with women and girls and why that insult still persists in boyish circles today.

Now I'm not really much of a feminist exactly but anyone who takes some time to read history can see these facts laid out. It's not even hard to find, you just have to look at the ideologies. The issue is that it isn't actually very easy to change peoples' beliefs on a large scale because these ideologies are still persistant and so are always pushing back against more compassionate ideas.

On the men's side of the issue, there are actually a lot of men who do take the side of women and push for respect, but the issue there is insular communities. That is, it's easy for people to isolate their influences. Gangs work that way. Even regular families can work that way.

If someone goes out in to the world and sees an inspiring idea and then goes home to ongoing abuse and ideological attack then it will be much harder for them to believe in that inspiring idea. So I see a double edged sword. Yes, it is the responsibility of men to educate themselves, however many if not 'stopping in their tracks' won't even take the time to fully consider the issue. In that, I think saying 'go teach yourself' is kind of shooting the idea in the foot because then they will just go and learn about it according to their interpretation and biases and will cherry-pick whatever already suits them and in the end, they will learn nothing.

I wish I had came upon this whole debate earlier and I might have had some useful motions to make but alas.

Personally, many women close to me have experienced sexual abuse and rape so I know it is a real 'every day' issue. Some have experienced it from their families which are the most dangerous situations. I, however, don't think I can really convey nor can speak for the pain that women feel. I can affirm it is there and validate it and support the healing but I think fundamentally as a man it is important for me to acknowledge that I do NOT share in the same pain even if I can empathize or sympathize with it. That is, I think there is a tendency for people to try and 'equalize' the pain but the fact is that the suffering is not the same. Simply stating that everybody suffers does not equalize the nature of everyone's suffering and to wash over suffering in a generalized way is a very broad way of ignoring the details of the issue. Of course, a man who has actually experienced these things would have more ability to identify with the same suffering.
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03-10-2017, 02:50 PM,
#96
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote:  Most men don't understand the emotional effort that goes into women having to constantly explain and justify their experiences and opinions to men. Men think "I do not experience this so why should I care? Tell me, tell me why I should care." And as SMC pointed out, that's bullshit. Why should the burden always be on the oppressed to prove they experience oppression? Men can and should educate themselves, there's huge amounts of literature on the topic.

Why should people have to participate in discussions that start from the idea that femisism is wrong (posted during women's history month no less)? Why is there any need to justify the movement for social justice and equality? Why are people put on trial for demanding basic human rights? By demanding that the oppressed prove their oppression or shouting down their points you are directly contributing to that oppression.

Women do not enjoy the same level of freedom as men. That is a fact. Feminism may be unpalatable to some or may trigger cognitive dissonance since it goes against your beliefs, but regardless there are MUCH BIGGER ISSUES than whether or not feminism "goes too far." Feminism is necessary until structural gender inequality is rectified, after that you can complain about it going too far.

Meanwhile the real source of oppression is what we should be concerned about, and that is the profit-driven capitalist system which thrives off the oppression of certain sectors of the population.

The burden of seeking to be understood always lie on who feels misunderstood, there is no avoiding that.

Also I think the point of the thread was not that feminism goes too far, but that it fails hard at what it attempts to do and there's probably reasons to distill for that to be case. Everything is energy and the notion of polarity dictates what any action will entertain within reality. Are you acting out of feelings of unity, spreading them? Or are you acting out of feelings of separation, spreading them?

You can't read online perspectives in an attempt to understand a specific person's perspective. I can go read texts of women that are against feminism just as much as I can read texts about women that are for feminism, does that help me understand a particular person of this forum? No it does not, I'll just gain an understanding of each writer and their own focus and distortions.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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03-10-2017, 02:51 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017, 02:52 PM by Aion.)
#97
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I disagree. The burden of understanding is with the one who does not understand. There is no obligation to understand but to place the burden of your own ignorance on others is silly.
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03-10-2017, 03:13 PM,
#98
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 02:51 PM)Aion Wrote:  I disagree. The burden of understanding is with the one who does not understand. There is no obligation to understand but to place the burden of your own ignorance on others is silly.

Well I disagree back. The burden of having a need to be understood is the actual burden and if you don't have this need then you won't require another to understand and will leave them to their own exploration of their ignorance without having sought to be a catalyst of change to this exploration.

Once you have sought to be a catalyst of change within another's ignorance, then everything they throw back at you is what you attracted very directly and if you don't care to go through with it then maybe you should wonder what you initial intent was and if it was any purposeful.

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03-10-2017, 04:22 PM,
#99
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
You can't teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn. One who does want to learn will seek out information.
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03-10-2017, 04:29 PM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 07:49 AM)SMC Wrote:  SMC, won't you provide to us your feelings and opinions on these things?  I have already - I don't wish to anymore. It's exhausting.

Your input is greatly desired by me, (well that's all about you - so - get that need of yours met by doing the work to learn without expecting a woman to educate a man about how patriarchy abuses women.

as I also hope Jade will return to this thread and overlook the perceived bigotry ("perceived" ? the bigotry is actual bigotry)

here to try and help teach us how to better see the female as equal to male and vice versa, as I hope of you too.
again - time for you to do the learning yourself. I've given you resources.

I know this thread is inundated with insensitivity, and I realize how hurtful it is be subjected to such things...But between you and Jade, and anyone else who desires equality, and wishes to speak for equality and to teach equality, I pray you will all not hold your tongue.

I don't think we're 'holding our tongue"  - I think we've had enough

As it goes...

Pray tell, women of b4, do not suppress yourselves in fear.
 Good lord! - again - this is not happening - the women feeling fear will have never said a single word on these forums

I will stand with you even if we disagree, because you are as much free, welcome, and respected, as I'd hope anyone would feel towards myself.  We are all the creator here, I desperately want to learn from another directly how I can be of service to the manifestation of equality between the sexes.  I do not believe I can manage this without the very important and desired input any of you have to offer.

This is not true - and the appeal to our emotions is patently emotionally manipulative.

Tell us dudes how wrong we are, explain it to us, help us uncover our eyes and see!  we did that already

We all came to this thread hoping to discuss feminism (debatable) and the most prominent energy about it is equality between women and men.

Please, share with us.  We are reaching out to you now,
you are - (there is no "we") as the male principle is said to do.  Please come back.  We will do better, or at the very least. I will do better.


------------------


C_A that you still feel it's appropriate to continue asking for selfless efforts from those so harshly spoken of - in itself says a great deal about how men expect women to always reconcile, arbitrate, mediate, inform, persuade, reason with, placate, educate, their oppressors.

I recognise the sincere good will in your wish for further learning; but after the sickening posts by some to this thread it's insensitive to ask those (effectively) verbally attacked - to continue to give time and energy to this thread - especially given the strong likelihood that we'd have to read further abusive ideas.

It was International Women's Day yesterday - yet not a thread was written here on B4 to acknowledge and to celebrate.

I waited and I watched (and there were dozens of ideas and facts, and initiatives and issues I could have posted about) - but I am so done with the insular and toxic 'echo chamber' that is the forum of B4.

I didn't think it would make any difference - and I just don't need the negativity.

I live as a woman on this planet - so  - please do the work in educating yourself C_A

There are organisations/individuals that will help you.

I've lived through 5 decades of misogyny and sexist abuse - I have no energy to keep arguing that it exists and ruins lives

- let alone that I've been so exhausted and dismayed to find it it here on Bring4th - where (years ago) I first came  - seeking sanctuary.

SMC Sad

I have studied this on and off since 2011...  I have an idea...What I don't have is personal input, I don't talk much to women face to face about these things, or anyone in person anymore...

If that which you have given is truly what you wish to leave, so be it.  I just think here, in this 'sanctuary' there is more probability to make a man understand better than elsewhere.

All of your posts have been very sharp and critical of men, you posted a blog link that says things like portraying a woman artistically is objectifying.

I say perceived bigotry to be kind to both the men and women here as both perceive bigotry.  I won't call anyone bigots by saying their post was of bigotry.

I'm sure e_s would have something to say on this...  

I think its bigoted to call people bigots just like its hateful to call something hateful.

Us and our labels that drive us so...

And what if men have had enough of this too? You find it exhausting to express these things, and you seem to believe you only have room to teach.

I think you could learn something about men by teaching us how YOU, the UNIQUE YOU, wants to be treated, not all women, just you.  You're important too, your feelings matter too.  I know that feeling of coming to b4 expecting Ra tier love and opinions, only to be met with things I didn't expect.  Only in my case, it was simple bluntness that turned me off.  For you its ignorant men it seems.

Why do you feel fear, when we are trying to be better so you won't feel such ways?

SMC, do you believe men and women are equal? From the sound of things I feel like you need to know.  On here, when we ask you something, you don't need feel obliged, but you seem to feel insulted by our very ignorance.

Could you consider that you mistreat men too as you perceive us to mistreat you?

That when we ask you in love and you scoff at us with critical criticism of us, how do you think that makes us feel? Or me?  I want to be helpful and you tell me to pretty much go google it instead.

I have googled it.  How am I supposed to understand something if all I have to understand is general biases?   You have a key to my understanding and you withhold it.  I can't walk through the door of understanding the pain of how you are abused if you won't unlock it for me.

Just tell me how you want to be treated personally, I can't google that of anyone personally.  Do you view my want to understand as an insult?  Why?

You call me your oppressor.  That's cruel.  You base every man off of my actions.  That's messed up.

You use my naive motions of wanting to better know as a method of degrading everyone women too with such beliefs like the bolded line of reasoning ending in oppressors.

You are very strong about such, but how flexible are you really?  You want to be rigid and tell us all that we are the problem as men, as oppressors.

How am I supposed to say that this is ironic?

Men are oppressors, women are manipulators, and what did that do, labeling each demographic as such?

How would you feel if I said I felt your response was bigoted towards men, and I just stopped responding completely?  I want to, I don't like being made to feel humiliated, bigoted, abusive, and shamed for just being myself and called an oppressor when I'm trying to understand how to just be a better man towards women.  But here's the thing.

I see why you speak so and feel so, and I forgive you for calling me such things and for being so sharp towards me.  I forgive you for the perceived bigotry I feel from you that I have.

And I apologize for putting you through such an emotional trauma, I won't ask anything of you again.

Just know you will learn to better respect men as you teach men how to respect women.

I think your views of b4 are interesting, why don't you take motions and action to change this?  I'll help you, I'll stand by you and support your motions towards a more educated b4 community.

Why don't you make a thread, and sift through the echoes to the heart of the matter?  You won't be alone in your efforts.

Further what can we do to help you, and you should ponder the same towards this community.  Everyone here should.

We pride ourselves on feeling informed and higher, of being forgiving and loving.  We all need to flex our forgiveness muscles here much more.  We can't all always be openhearted but we can help each other to be so and more, is that not why we're here in some deeper sense?

Similarly we all need to flex our openmindedness and be more considerate, especially myself.

I am not arguing that misogyny and sexist abuse don't exist, I'm arguing that you seem to be very tormented in this area and I want you to continue interacting here so that we can help you process that pain and find forgiveness of misogyny and sexism and abuse, so that when you fight it, others don't feel the very energies you're fighting against coming from you.

SMC don't respond if you don't want to, just know I love you for who you are and I hope you can one day find your sanctuary, I deeply do.

In the mean time, I just wish we could agree on something and be friends Sad
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03-10-2017, 05:45 PM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Something that just occurred to me: sometimes in conversations like this, people have so made up their minds to protect themselves that they can't really hear each other. One of the greatest expressions of love, I believe, is to allow somebody to be in error, to give them the freedom to believe something I don't. When I think like that, I realize that the frustration comes not from the evilness of the other person so much as the fact that I can't reconcile their view with what I know can't be evil, and that that just means I don't understand something material. And since I'll never understand everything about how people do what they do, I just have to accept that and love them anyway.

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It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
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03-10-2017, 07:33 PM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Okay. I think on reflection I could have done 2 things differently when creating this thread. The first thing was to give an explanation of why I was highlighting a dissenting voice criticising Feminism as an intellectual and political force. The second, and something that has shown itself to be a recurring theme in my life, is sensitivity.

Janice Fiamengo is a Professor teaching English at the University of Ontario, so the context relates to Canada specifically. I was initially drawn to this topic 5 months ago when I discovered another Professor, also from Canada called by the name of Jordan B Peterson, A Professor teaching Psychology at the University of Toronto who is also a practising clinical psychologist. I first became aware of him because he flatly refused to comply with a new law, titled Bill C-16 here. This law relates to the enforcement of using specific pro nouns relating to transgender identification. I took notice of what this middle aged clinical psychologist had to say. Of all the hours I have spent listening to his powerful, and at times arrogant rhetoric and pompous persona, I found a gem. Paraphrasing, he said "It is a good thing to seek out opinions that conflict with your own".

Two things I had no idea of when creating this thread, first was that it would explode like it did and second that it was International Woman's Day last Wednesday. I certainly would not have made this thread had I known that, and I did not become aware of such a celebration until last Tuesday while listening to "Woman's Hour" on Radio 4, here (17 minutes in)

As a bricklayer I work in a men only environment, and as I don't enjoy their discussions in the canteen I prefer to eat my lunch in my car while listening to the radio. Woman's Hour is my favourite! (the woman on the show encourage me to open up and be more expressive)

So I do not identify as "anti-Feminist", but neither do I identify as a "Feminist". Acknowledging and celebrating International Women's Day is entirely different to me!  Putting the "them v us" labels aside, my highest value is best described by something Scott Mandelker said in one of his LoO study audios. He said "How much do you love the truth?"

I did not reply to e_s because my immediate reaction to his post was to recoil in horror. I never clicked on his links either, and as has been previously noted here on this thread, his posts amounted to an expression of internal pain expressed as resentment. It reminds me of this Ra quote from 34.6...

Quote:Very often the catalyst for emotional pain, whether it be the death of the physical complex of one other-self which is loved or some other seeming loss, will simply result in the opposite, in a bitterness, an impatience, a souring. This is catalyst which has gone awry.


I identified with Jade when she referenced her own experience of rape. I asked my Wife last weekend "Do you think I was sexually abused?" while reading this thread. So for the first time I shared my experience with her, of when I was 10 years old and was invited to baby sit with my 14 year old step cousin. He put on a porno (vhs) and explained to me that before you could have sex with a female you had to first experience it with a male. He explained what to expect and my curiosity got the better of me. When I experienced pain I shouted "stop!", and he stopped. When I shared this with my Wife she said yes I was abused. I prefer to use the word "groomed".
He made another, more aggressive attempt when I was 11, but I screamed so loud he immediately backed off. He was bigger than me, stronger, and had a rifle in his hand (he even fired a shot at my feet while shouting "drop them!")

I am not sharing this anecdote to attract sympathy, but merely to note that I do understand what it feels like. I feel I am qualified to speak about it. (I think Jade would agree with me here that there is a therapeutic value to sharing unnecessary personal details in a public domain) Due to sheer luck, I guess, I recognised my own power and personal force. As a result I am naturally attracted to individuals who display their personal power.

For several years I have been asking the question "What did I miss out on by not having a positive male role model in my life?". I was raised without a father figure in my life, and my mother did the very best she could given that she had unhealed wounds herself (she was raped by her step father when she was very, very little). 

Finally I got the answer I was seeking! Here is an excerpt from Warren Farrell speaking at the University of Toronto.



Quote:"...That children with a significant amount of father involvement have much more empathy...Empathy...Now how in the world do children with a lot of father involvement, get, for example, more empathy? Aren't women, in general more empathetic, than, men?...And so if that's the case, how do the children have more empathy the more involvement with the father they have? And the reason is that empathy does not come from being empathised. When your empathised with, you learn to focus on yourself, when everybody is thinking about what you need and what your feelings are, and how you are hurt, you become self centred, you become narcissistic, you become non-empathetic very frequently. Empathy often comes from, like say a father and child wrestling, and the father saying, "you can use leverage, you can fake me out with eye contact, but if you poke me in the eyes or pull my hair, or kick me in the groin, there will be no more wrestling tonight." And then the child does one of those things, and the father says "okay no more wrestling tonight". The father who enforces the boundaries teaches that child to think about some feelings besides the child's need or desire to win as a wrestler. The child who does not get those boundaries enforced starts thinking how much they can get away with, pulling and poking in order to win..."
 

here 2.09 hrs

And here is a Ra quote that immediately came to mind when I first listened to Warren several months ago. Relevant parts are bolded.

Quote:42.20. There are two things especially important in this relationship other than the basic acceptance of the child by the parent. Firstly, the experience of whatever means the parent uses to worship and give thanksgiving to the One Infinite Creator, should if possible be shared with the child entity upon a daily basis, as you would say. Secondly, the compassion of parent to child may well be tempered by the understanding that the child entity shall learn the biases of service to others or service to self from the parental other-self. This is the reason that some discipline is appropriate in the teach/learning. This does not apply to the activation of any one energy center for each entity is unique and each relationship with self and other-self doubly unique. The guidelines given are only general for this reason.


Ra are referencing developmental psychology here and the importance of discipline (boundary re-enforcement described by Warren)

Here is another Ra quote that points to a male bias. Again bolding the points of focus.

Quote:99.5 Questioner: Finally, of the preliminary questions, one from Jim stating, “For the last three weeks I have often been at the edge of anger and frustration, have had a nearly constant dull pain at my indigo-ray center, and have felt quite drained of energy. Would Ra comment on the source of these experiences and any thoughts or actions that might alleviate it?”

Ra: I am Ra. As in all distortions, the source is the limit of the viewpoint. We may, without serious infringement, suggest three courses of behavior which shall operate upon the distortion expressed.

Firstly, it would be well for the scribe to engage, if not daily then as nearly so as possible, in a solitary strenuous activity which brings this entity to the true physical weariness. Further, although any activity may suffice, an activity chosen for its intended service to the harmony of the group would be quite efficacious.

The second activity is some of your space/time and time/space taken by the entity, directly or as nearly so as possible to the strenuous activity, for solitary contemplation.

Thirdly, the enthusiastic pursuit of the balancing and silent meditations cannot be deleted from the list of helpful activities for this entity.

We may note that the great forte of the scribe is summed in the inadequate sound vibration complex, power. The flow of power, just as the flow of love or wisdom, is enabled not by the chary conserver of its use but by the constant user. The physical manifestation of power being either constructive or destructive strenuous activity, the power-filled entity must needs exercise that manifestation. This entity experiences a distortion in the direction of an excess of stored energy. It is well to know the self and to guard and use those attributes which the self has provided for its learning and its service.

This excess energy is not unique to Jim, neither is it it unique to males. But males tend to display this quality a lot more. I remember being allowed to practise my gymnastics in the assembly hall of my primary school (kindergarten) because I could not sit still during the readiing session. I would figit and disrupt the class until finally, my teacher aloud me to expel my energy doing somersaults into a landing matt while unattended!

Feminist theory is fazing this out because it perceives it as problematic, by reducing physical activity and competitive games. (grrrrrrr!)

One final quote from Ken Wilbers recent paper, titled "Trump and the Post Truth World" 

Quote:"But this postmodern stage_Integral Metatheory's "green"__brought a 4th person perspective into significant existence, which had the capacity to reflect on__and critically analyze__these 3rd person "global" productions, and this is where green postmodernism (so named because it came after, and reflected on, the products of modernism) decided that this rational-modern mentality had, in too many ways, veered off course in destructive and counter productive ways. And thus the civil rights movement, the worldwide environmental movement (which became larger than any political party anywhere on the planet), personal and professional feminism, the sustainability movement (in business and elsewhere)__all of which I have called "the many gifts of green."

And yet, in the course of that, driven largely (if often unknowingly) by arcane arguments in academia, the originally healthy pluralistic postmodernism increasingly became an extreme, overblown, self-contradictory, utterly dysfunctional relativism, which soon collapsed almost entirely into nihilism and narcissism." - pg 15. Full content to be found here


And so it is the "arcane arguments in academia" that Janice Fiamengo is pointing to (if not embroiled in). And it takes a certain amount of personal conviction and character to go up against a tidal wave of postmodern opinion. If nothing else, she is playing a corrective role by addressing the dishonest aspects in women's studies.
...the highest wisdom is to suffer all men to have full liberty to think on all subjects in their own way. - OAHSPE  
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03-10-2017, 10:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017, 10:26 PM by Aion.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 03:13 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  
(03-10-2017, 02:51 PM)Aion Wrote:  I disagree. The burden of understanding is with the one who does not understand. There is no obligation to understand but to place the burden of your own ignorance on others is silly.

Well I disagree back. The burden of having a need to be understood is the actual burden and if you don't have this need then you won't require another to understand and will leave them to their own exploration of their ignorance without having sought to be a catalyst of change to this exploration.

Once you have sought to be a catalyst of change within another's ignorance, then everything they throw back at you is what you attracted very directly and if you don't care to go through with it then maybe you should wonder what you initial intent was and if it was any purposeful.

Well if we're going to play that way then we can say that the ignorant person just attracted the person who is acting catalyst to change their ignorance. That circle can go on forever until someone actually takes responsibility.
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03-10-2017, 10:45 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017, 11:58 PM by Glow.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 10:43 PM)Glow Wrote:  
(03-06-2017, 03:35 PM)jeremy6d Wrote:  [quote='Minyatur' pid='223330' dateline='1488827557']
Is this not what most of this thread is though? Wounds clashing wounds?

Yup. Exactly.

(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  I didn't see anyone attempt at understanding e_s in his wounds, in his pain (except Van, you go Van!), no one attempt at helping him have a more healthy view of it all. There's just been reactions of others being triggered in their own wounds and as such there is no seeking to understand one another but instead a desire to label right and wrong in one another.

I can't disagree with this. But everybody did the best they could--even earth_spirit, I firmly believe this. We will always come up short. I just hope we can take a lesson from it, explore those triggered, hurting parts of ourselves. They need love, not correctitude.
So how would that have gone down had Jade or I been all sympathetic to es? How would that have changed or stopped the negative anti woman spiral of posts dancing around the issue or reinforcing his perspective. Since you see the wounds and arent wounded by this issue this could have been something you did. Why should we the women have to as usual be the passive understanding ones.

He might have decided we few women don't suck but he still would hate all women but us. I live that daily, it changes nothing.
I have tons of guy friends that care about me because I'm an anomaly to them but thinking I'm good doesn't make them generalize it to women are good trust me. Sometimes people have to just be told they are not going to be silent while they perpetuate hate.

As an aside ALL women know some feminism goes to far. We ALL know it but have you seen other social movements? The leading edge is ALWAYS crazy aggressive and single minded. Greenpeace, PITA, racial movements that basically become anti white. They are the ones that are uncomfortable but swing the pendulum past the mark so over time things settle in the middle.

We are not dumb we know things go to far but since things have been WAY TO FAR the other way for WAY TO LONG this is how they bring attention.

Did any if you even read the channeling Jade posted? I see lots of likes but it explained exactly that.
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03-10-2017, 11:10 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 02:14 AM by Glow.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I'm not really part of this anymore it seems completely futile to discuss any of this.
Do you really think any of the women here need to be told the feminist movement boarders on female worship and goes to far. Do you think we don't know many have turned into man haters and that this is also wrong?

It is part of the much needed process of social change it always happens that way. It is the ONLY way people pay attention and the weak sheep learn to stand tall and not be bullied. It has always been ugly whennthings shift because the pendulum HAS to balance out the ones who drag their feet in said change..

Who was this original topic written for the women or the men?

Was it for the men? To what end discuss again women's errors? If you truely saw women as equals and had compassion it seems unlikely you would be threatened by the more aggressive versions of feminism and understand how far we still have to go to true equality and would understand it's part of the process.

Alll social change happens like a pendulum swing - over shoots and comes back to balance..

If you wrote it for women was it to chastise us or what just to tell us we aren't better than men?
Any woman HERE would know we aren't better than the other sex.

So me I am on Instagram and only for mind opening stuff..

I am not an activist but i live to see underdogs reclaim their value. I love people. Both sexes all cultures. I only have posted 3 things 2 that point out the unfair way society treats men, and another an osho quote that speaks of being all cultures all races because I love them all.

I follow all kinds of black pride, Spanish pride, gay pride movements and until this thread NO feminist ones. I interact with all these groups and see their beauty, their cultures and beingness are gorgeous they interact with me and when they go to far I point out that I am white but certainly do not see them anyway but as an equally beautiful valuable being. I love them.

I can't sift through all this stuff on here line by line it's to much.
I hope you guys and gals can find the convo you need but I'm still sort of realling over this entire thread happening here. I guess we all get silly expectations here and there in life one of mine is since I shelter others from hate I'm always shocked when people do not do the same for me(as a woman)

Thank you sincerely for those who spoke for women or opened your hearts enough to try to see what you have not experienced.
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03-10-2017, 11:28 PM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 12:38 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  
(03-10-2017, 07:49 AM)SMC Wrote:  It was International Women's Day yesterday - yet not a thread was written here on B4 to acknowledge and to celebrate.

Congratulation on your choice of having been a woman within this lifetime!

Are you seeing her wound?
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03-10-2017, 11:41 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 12:08 AM by Glow.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I have one more comment. Likely irrelevant to everyone but when I see gay pride/black pride/Latino pride..... I am happy.

Groups that have for centuries be made to feel less than. Invisible, disposable. To see them start to claim that they have value, it moves me. With love like a parent to see these people who have been devalued to the point of believing they lack value for SOOOO long start to get fire in their eye and say no more. I am infinitely pleased, it moves me because I love them to.

we are all one, we should love and cherish and protect ourself(otherselves)
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03-11-2017, 01:23 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 02:06 AM by Glow.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 04:29 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote:  
(03-10-2017, 07:49 AM)SMC Wrote:  SMC, won't you provide to us your feelings and opinions on these things?  I have already - I don't wish to anymore. It's exhausting.

Your input is greatly desired by me, (well that's all about you - so - get that need of yours met by doing the work to learn without expecting a woman to educate a man about how patriarchy abuses women.

as I also hope Jade will return to this thread and overlook the perceived bigotry ("perceived" ? the bigotry is actual bigotry)

here to try and help teach us how to better see the female as equal to male and vice versa, as I hope of you too.
again - time for you to do the learning yourself. I've given you resources.

I know this thread is inundated with insensitivity, and I realize how hurtful it is be subjected to such things...But between you and Jade, and anyone else who desires equality, and wishes to speak for equality and to teach equality, I pray you will all not hold your tongue.

I don't think we're 'holding our tongue"  - I think we've had enough

As it goes...

Pray tell, women of b4, do not suppress yourselves in fear.
 Good lord! - again - this is not happening - the women feeling fear will have never said a single word on these forums

I will stand with you even if we disagree, because you are as much free, welcome, and respected, as I'd hope anyone would feel towards myself.  We are all the creator here, I desperately want to learn from another directly how I can be of service to the manifestation of equality between the sexes.  I do not believe I can manage this without the very important and desired input any of you have to offer.

This is not true - and the appeal to our emotions is patently emotionally manipulative.

Tell us dudes how wrong we are, explain it to us, help us uncover our eyes and see!  we did that already

We all came to this thread hoping to discuss feminism (debatable) and the most prominent energy about it is equality between women and men.

Please, share with us.  We are reaching out to you now,
you are - (there is no "we") as the male principle is said to do.  Please come back.  We will do better, or at the very least. I will do better.


------------------


C_A that you still feel it's appropriate to continue asking for selfless efforts from those so harshly spoken of - in itself says a great deal about how men expect women to always reconcile, arbitrate, mediate, inform, persuade, reason with, placate, educate, their oppressors.

I recognise the sincere good will in your wish for further learning; but after the sickening posts by some to this thread it's insensitive to ask those (effectively) verbally attacked - to continue to give time and energy to this thread - especially given the strong likelihood that we'd have to read further abusive ideas.

It was International Women's Day yesterday - yet not a thread was written here on B4 to acknowledge and to celebrate.

I waited and I watched (and there were dozens of ideas and facts, and initiatives and issues I could have posted about) - but I am so done with the insular and toxic 'echo chamber' that is the forum of B4.

I didn't think it would make any difference - and I just don't need the negativity.

I live as a woman on this planet - so  - please do the work in educating yourself C_A

There are organisations/individuals that will help you.

I've lived through 5 decades of misogyny and sexist abuse - I have no energy to keep arguing that it exists and ruins lives

- let alone that I've been so exhausted and dismayed to find it it here on Bring4th - where (years ago) I first came  - seeking sanctuary.

SMC Sad

I have studied this on and off since 2011...  I have an idea...What I don't have is personal input, I don't talk much to women face to face about these things, or anyone in person anymore...

If that which you have given is truly what you wish to leave, so be it.  I just think here, in this 'sanctuary' there is more probability to make a man understand better than elsewhere.

All of your posts have been very sharp and critical of men, you posted a blog link that says things like portraying a woman artistically is objectifying.

I say perceived bigotry to be kind to both the men and women here as both perceive bigotry.  I won't call anyone bigots by saying their post was of bigotry.

I'm sure e_s would have something to say on this...  

I think its bigoted to call people bigots just like its hateful to call something hateful.

Us and our labels that drive us so...

And what if men have had enough of this too? You find it exhausting to express these things, and you seem to believe you only have room to teach.

I think you could learn something about men by teaching us how YOU, the UNIQUE YOU, wants to be treated, not all women, just you.  You're important too, your feelings matter too.  I know that feeling of coming to b4 expecting Ra tier love and opinions, only to be met with things I didn't expect.  Only in my case, it was simple bluntness that turned me off.  For you its ignorant men it seems.

Why do you feel fear, when we are trying to be better so you won't feel such ways?

SMC, do you believe men and women are equal? From the sound of things I feel like you need to know.  On here, when we ask you something, you don't need feel obliged, but you seem to feel insulted by our very ignorance.

Could you consider that you mistreat men too as you perceive us to mistreat you?

That when we ask you in love and you scoff at us with critical criticism of us, how do you think that makes us feel? Or me?  I want to be helpful and you tell me to pretty much go google it instead.

I have googled it.  How am I supposed to understand something if all I have to understand is general biases?   You have a key to my understanding and you withhold it.  I can't walk through the door of understanding the pain of how you are abused if you won't unlock it for me.

Just tell me how you want to be treated personally, I can't google that of anyone personally.  Do you view my want to understand as an insult?  Why?

You call me your oppressor.  That's cruel.  You base every man off of my actions.  That's messed up.

You use my naive motions of wanting to better know as a method of degrading everyone women too with such beliefs like the bolded line of reasoning ending in oppressors.

You are very strong about such, but how flexible are you really?  You want to be rigid and tell us all that we are the problem as men, as oppressors.

How am I supposed to say that this is ironic?

Men are oppressors, women are manipulators, and what did that do, labeling each demographic as such?

How would you feel if I said I felt your response was bigoted towards men, and I just stopped responding completely?  I want to, I don't like being made to feel humiliated, bigoted, abusive, and shamed for just being myself and called an oppressor when I'm trying to understand how to just be a better man towards women.  But here's the thing.

I see why you speak so and feel so, and I forgive you for calling me such things and for being so sharp towards me.  I forgive you for the perceived bigotry I feel from you that I have.

And I apologize for putting you through such an emotional trauma, I won't ask anything of you again.

Just know you will learn to better respect men as you teach men how to respect women.

I think your views of b4 are interesting, why don't you take motions and action to change this?  I'll help you, I'll stand by you and support your motions towards a more educated b4 community.

Why don't you make a thread, and sift through the echoes to the heart of the matter?  You won't be alone in your efforts.

Further what can we do to help you, and you should ponder the same towards this community.  Everyone here should.

We pride ourselves on feeling informed and higher, of being forgiving and loving.  We all need to flex our forgiveness muscles here much more.  We can't all always be openhearted but we can help each other to be so and more, is that not why we're here in some deeper sense?

Similarly we all need to flex our openmindedness and be more considerate, especially myself.

I am not arguing that misogyny and sexist abuse don't exist, I'm arguing that you seem to be very tormented in this area and I want you to continue interacting here so that we can help you process that pain and find forgiveness of misogyny and sexism and abuse, so that when you fight it, others don't feel the very energies you're fighting against coming from you.

SMC don't respond if you don't want to, just know I love you for who you are and I hope you can one day find your sanctuary, I deeply do.

In the mean time, I just wish we could agree on something and be friends Sad
CS I like you and of course love everyone but to like someone can be harder. I like you. I do not feel like discussing this with you is a waste of a burden because your heart is in the right place even if you have a few blind spots. It's all good.
SMC - currently doesn't have the bandwidth and myself I'm only replying to posts that make me feel my words even matter. So you let's talk.

I take issue with you saying to call something hateful is hateful.
Can we rethink this together?

How should we view a continual dismissive attitude towards those who only want to be loved as equals. Let's admit it that's what this is. If we can talk about male and female joining to be one. How can you love us, and us be one with you if the male energy for some reason wants to see the female as less than. Doesn't want to look at the fact that still today in first world countries we are constantly treating the female half of the one as the part that is disposable interchangeably with any other set of tits. Emotion and intuition laughable or crazy? As less meaningful, significant, worthy. You yourself have admitted to hating women at one point how is it you cannot see there is a bias toward hate of the feminin?

And why would you assume that us being unable to sit silently through it without anyone speaking up and calling it what it is HATE means that we hate too?
I hate no one. If you've paid any attention you know Jade hates no one. SMC never says anything anti male just anti "head in the sand" so I do t see her as hating either just fed up which seems reasonable after 50 years.

I swear I'm at 40 still not in the disposed of side because I've taken very good care of myself people always are shocked I'm not 26 but still at times 40 years of being treated like something with a value experation date and in the interim just a sex doll(that se doll stuff started at 4 ), f*** I've just had enough. I'm considering lately being a lesbian next life and not have to think about being thrown away for something as natural as aging, and to be loved by someone who sees me as equal. Smile I love men so deeply and completely that is saying a lot, it makes me sad thinking I won't get to be up close to the male energy I love so much that I try to surround myself with it but I'm sick of being garbage in the making. Im over it and need a break. Smile

As to men being concerers and women being manipulative. Can you perhaps see why this may have started? The manipulative part? My mother was very manipulative it taught me I want nothing that isn't given freely and do not want gestures or treasures I would not be bestowed naturally. Manipulation and games are ugly to me but both sexes partake.

I understand it, don't like it but understand. If you were controlled, knew you were apt to be replaced because your value was nil to the world and you have been conditioned over centuries to feel helpless(Google learned helplessness it is usual applied to individuals but its ingrained in the female culture) you cannot force or negotiate or assert yourself to take care of yourself what are you left with but manipulation? As women learn over time they are strong and valued I'm sure the behaviour will sort itself out.

I see it everywhere I work with a lot of women clients I get to know them over the years and even great ones suprise me. Women I think are strong they make great money and should be free still have to play games because their husbands often just "say no". I have never given anyone the right to say no to me being free. I'm sure I've been stoned to death in many lives lol

One man I fell so hard for I would have so easily accepted it so I get now how it happens submissivenesswithout violence but actually as a child my much older larger brother use to beat me to the point the police would be called because I won't be dominated. It's not some rare thing these things still happen and shape the female psyche . Anyways that matters not I have equal and worse abuse from both sexes likely why I don't vilify either sex but my point is women have been conditioned for millennia to not face men head on for obvious reasons. Perhaps you have a bit of insight to this now but men manipulate just as bad.

How do you think men convinced women to tolerate being seen as bodies, be treated as bodies threat of replacement, threat of violence. That is manipulative too.

People can be quite crappy, we have a long long past. Baggage to clean up.
Gotta understand it first.
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03-11-2017, 05:44 AM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I would like to point out something very different!

I came to this thread quite late, since i usually don't look into that subforum.
When i saw it, e_e's post has already been removed, so i obviously missend that part completely at first.
When i saw it, i was shocked and commented. I was also upset by other posts which i wrote.

I also said, how important i believe feminism has been for decades now, and i deeply and with sadness acknowledge the fact that women have been treated very bad for centuries!

But there is also something else:
One thing, definetely i didnt oppress women in this lifetime.
But i have no clue, what i did in other lifetimes. Probably i was a part of the men, that treated Woman so bad.
But also Most probably i have also been a woman who suffered from this.

And we should consider this. it's not unlikely women have been opressing men in other lifetimes!
This is not to justify anything or to relativate anything. It doesnt make things better.
But i think it's a valid consideration that can give a broader view.

And then something very personal:
As much als i can understand it, there is quite some generalization.

I have been raped when i was two or three weeks (!) old. My mother willingly and knowingly has let this happen.
The destruction this caused on all levels of my being is Even beyond my imagination, im still discovering and healing big by bit.
With that generalization i feel like being put into the "perpetrator basket", it feels (although this is probably Nobodys Intention) als if i had no right to complain or suffer since i belong to the culprits.
And then i feel completely abandoned in my pain and suffering, nowhere to turn to.
Not sure if anybody can understand this...

Im trying to heal all of this with all available ressources, because otherwise i would be forced to unconsciously pass that pain on.
Yes, there is anger, there is hate, for both women and men.
But it was only a few people that did this to me, not all women, not all men.
And i give it my best to Break this vicious circle of hate, anger, resentment and violence.
Who else can i expect to stop this if i dont stop it in me?
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03-11-2017, 06:03 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 06:17 AM by Elros.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-10-2017, 10:45 PM)Glow Wrote:  
(03-10-2017, 10:43 PM)Glow Wrote:  
(03-06-2017, 03:35 PM)jeremy6d Wrote:  
(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  Is this not what most of this thread is though? Wounds clashing wounds?

Yup. Exactly.




(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  I didn't see anyone attempt at understanding e_s in his wounds, in his pain (except Van, you go Van!), no one attempt at helping him have a more healthy view of it all. There's just been reactions of others being triggered in their own wounds and as such there is no seeking to understand one another but instead a desire to label right and wrong in one another.

I can't disagree with this.  But everybody did the best they could--even earth_spirit, I firmly believe this.  We will always come up short.  I just hope we can take a lesson from it, explore those triggered, hurting parts of ourselves.  They need love, not correctitude.
So how would that have gone down had Jade or I been all sympathetic to es? How would that have changed or stopped the negative anti woman spiral of posts dancing around the issue or reinforcing his perspective. Since you see the wounds and arent wounded by this issue this could have been something you did. Why should we the women have to as usual be the passive understanding ones.

He might have decided we few women don't suck but he still would hate all women but us. I live that daily, it changes nothing.
I have tons of guy friends that care about me because I'm an anomaly to them but thinking I'm good doesn't make them generalize it to women are good trust me. Sometimes people have to just be told they are not going to be silent while they perpetuate hate.

As an aside ALL women know some feminism goes to far. We ALL know it but have you seen other social movements? The leading edge is ALWAYS crazy aggressive and single minded. Greenpeace, PITA, racial movements that basically become anti white. They are the ones that are uncomfortable but swing the pendulum past the mark so over time things settle in the middle.

We are not dumb we know things go to far but since things have been WAY TO FAR the other way for WAY TO LONG this is how they bring attention.

Did any if you even read the channeling Jade posted? I see lots of likes but it explained exactly that.

I did not mean to point fingers and instead used him as an  example to describe the issue I saw and which applied a bit to everyone.

I personally really don't have anything against any forum member. If a member has a view which could be considered wrong then I will think there's cause and effect  to lead them to this view and I already described a view that hates women as unhealthy, which in my view makes it something not to hate but to seek to help be better.

Sometimes I can be a bit harsh in my words but I do this out of seeing paradoxes in others more than having any harsh feelings toward others. Like I saw many potentials of messages in my post to SMC, a particular one I thought was useful in the LOO context was "don't over-identify to be a woman because you are a woman now" but that's really just my usual ever ratationalyzing the Creator in all things.



I'm going to go back on the view I shared about this subject, that male and female are an intertwined dance.

I think it's fairly obvious, if sought to be seen through this angle, that the male energy in it's repression of the female energy is quite the slave to the female energy. There's been quite a lot of harsh things done to women, lot of efforts put into subdoing women, but why is this so? If men wanted to be above women then they'd need to be without interest for women, without a drive for women and without a need of women, which is very clearly never the case. Man has a great need for woman and it is this need that we see being distorted and twisted into an unsightful version of itself. So I think it's never really about man versus woman but instead the spectrum of the relationship of male/female female/male energy. Everything in reality is meant to teach us something about the unified Creator we are, it is never outside the context of any moment.

This world has a unique balance to itself and that's all the point of why it is veiled. It seeks to offer a vivid dream, a vivid experience. Earth's biases are what makes it what it is and it is something to be understood because you cannot erase what is and only accept it as a portion of yourself reflected.

So while I think the idea to see these issues fixed is great, I think the path toward this is the one I "preach" on every societal issue. The first step is individual healing, creating a rippling effect of individual healings. Individual healing is always done through a realization of the self about the self. Others or the external world can trigger this realization or enhance its likelihood, but it always starts and ends in self and that is why to bring down the focus toward oneself is important. Mysoginyst in man will end the day man heals its feelings of relationship toward woman, I really don't see it happen any other way however right other ways may feel.

In the idea of infinity, acceptance of all the potentials the mind can think of is required for a balanced union with what is seen of infinity
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03-11-2017, 07:16 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 07:34 AM by Night Owl.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I usually just prone acceptance of all facets of existence and since recently I've been focusing strongly on working yellow ray energies, I cannot help but make a parallel between all these threads which are very popular like this one and politics/racism/sexism and all other "isms". My initial reaction to those threads is usually: well thats not really a debate to me, I don't feel triggered. There's nobody here which I don't like or accept. And so then I wonder why is it it then if that's not a personal issue that these things keep manifesting right in front of my face. What are all these yellow ray debates telling me? And then I stumbled upon this very interesting idea brought by aion just a bit before and that is the idea of responsability.

I tell myself well then ok, this is not personal but do I have responsability in this and if I do what is it? Since my responsability can't really be not to oppress women as I already don't I ask myself: Well this debate is one of generalization to begin with. If I had to generalize my responsability towards my outer reality in general I would say I usually feel responsible to help people understand one another because I am gifted with the ability to understand people. Very very rarely I have had this feeling like I just can't reach this understanding it's like to me it's just always there like a fruit waiting to be taken. And so if that's my responsability how can I help people understand one another here?

Well first off I am not going to fingerpoint anyone as that would only spread more pain. But what I think I can bring is the understanding that to begin with, if that is such a triggering subject, then it is very likely that every participant is entangled to the pain. This thread is a thread of pain sharing but what I think is causing more harm instead of healing it is the lack of recognition of the different levels of pain. Just after a quick scan I would say there is pain and blocages and healing needed in every energy centers going from red to blue. And so I believe putting them all in the same basket is surely going to maintain everyone to their yellow ray pain and even lower. Now how can we start healing all of those things?

First each needs recognition, not just women, not just triggered people, not just those who take part of the debate. All of them. And so I think we should do a collective kundalini elevation just like it would be required individually. And for that there needs to be acknowledgement of pain on every energy centers. And so I would like to just begin with it and you can bring in more to the attention of others if you wish or just ignore the process as you wish but I think this can be helpful to anyone who wish to reach inner reconciliation with all these triggering debates. So we should begin at the base and go uoward just like individual chakra work.

One thing that I think needs to be recognized concerning red ray is that the actions of oppression are to me the same as repression. I would associate oppression as the yellow ray version of individual repression. And I would tend to think that these behaviors are usually the manifestation of fear. Why do men oppress women? My personal opinion would be because they fear the vulnerable state in which they know women can put them. And why does women repress themselves? Because they fear the oppression of men. Can you see how this is circular? Well to be honest I would expect people on this forum to already be able to move past that but if anyone feel like this is speaking to them I would just say acting out of fear is only speading more fear. There are better more healthy ways just waiting for you to seek them. And I think as long as one lives in fear, there is no opportunity for other experiences as fear will just take every space it can to manifest. Only by choice can it be healed. Which bring us to orange ray.

I think concerning this debate is also orange ray issues. Men just like women can experience this. Victimization, lack of responsability and unbalanced use of power over others are all manifestations of this. I think all generalizations will fall into this category and can maybe go up to yellow ray. Everytime men/women bring everyone else in their self victimization thats unhealed orange issue. Everytime men/women either use their so called dominance to either overpower the opposite sex or to dismiss the issue they are not part of, there's also orange issue. So how do we heal that? I think this is where my reflection started after the idea of aion about responsability. Since this forum is generally inclined towards advanced philosophical discussions I think the roots of the blocages of this discussion moreso lies in there. So just as much men and women should take responsability. First responsability not to spread the fear further. Then responsability to accept one another. Responsability to help one another. Responsability to understand one another. Responsability to be a beacon of equality. Responsability to feel equal and perceive others as equals. Those are all major steps towards healing these orange issues.

Now concerning yellow ray, I think there is with great evidence a big part of this subject that concerns peer acceptance and social recognition which I would think is yellow ray. We definitely need to acknowledge that there's a great amount of people if not most people that are exactly seeking that all of their lives. My approach concerning yellow in real life is usually to not take any space myself so that everyone who needs space (most people just need tons and tons of space anyway) will benefit from all this free space to manifest all they need to heal their blocages. My observations is that usually these manifestations become so all over the place that the blocages cannot be overlooked anymore and so the person with blocages will either realize they don't have the choice to change something about themselves or they will realize that they have the choice to, which generally comes with a willingness to do so. Now I'm not suggesting you should all do that, that's just my personal approach with which I've observed good results but I suggest anyone with experience to share any other method to heal yellow ray blocages as I suspect it is the most generalized blocage. Afterall we are in yellow ray density in a yellow ray social environnemrnt with yellow ray consciousness in a yellow ray body manifestation. We probably all share some common issue with this particular frequency. I would suggest that acceptance here is key to move further into wellbeingness of all mankind.

Now as for green ray, I think there is need for recognition that what all these blocages need is love/acceptance. I would describe this particular energy exchange between yellow ray social issues and green ray as a need for meeting. We have to genuinely want to meet one another in our pain and in our struggle in order to accept and love one another. Without recognition, acceptance cannot be expressed and so the blocages go on and on.

This leads us to blue ray which I think is the result of exchanging all these informations here with words. These issues are at the root more internal and personal issues but as we express ourselves together, a new kind of blocage that has nothing to do with the initial subject appear and that is the need to be understood. And I think many on these forums probably share this very strong desire and need to be understood as it is the foundation of communication. Else very few would be here expressing themselves. This kind of blocage, althouh less related to the thread subject is still a very important issue as it spreads across all threads. We need to collectively recognize that all those expressing themselves long for this understanding, and that by making mistakes and expressing poorly at first we all try and get better at it. A lot of misunderstading comes from this blocage where I think in real life it's very likely most people on b4th would just hangout peacefully. We need to recognize that we all need to be understood, but we all need different things to be understood about ourselves and our perspectives and there lies the challenge. I would think the key here is to perceive oneness in all things in order to more truthfully reflect our core nature to others and not get stuck by lower ray projections. I think there is probably more to it but I invite experts of the subject to express themselves on this.

I'm not sure if these issues can go as far as reaching indigo ray but if that's the case please share your perspective.

I hope I have done my duty and responsability as a cocreator by manifesting what I resonate to be my responsability. As for the rest of the work I can only offer that I wish everyone the best and that I assure everyone who cross my path that they will not have to experience these projections and that they will find all the space they need to figure out themselves. And I hope this can inspire others to radiate the same towards their outer reality.

The creator is on both sides of the mirror but it's essence lies in the reflection itself. Dive within and it shall be reflected through you
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Glow
03-11-2017, 08:20 AM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I would like to offer my, different, view on this.

I have to admit i am biased in this, and the observation may be subjective, maybe no one else can agree, and possibly i am exageterating a little.

That "advanced philosophical" caught my eye and i do not agree on this, in fact my Impression from the very beginning on this was rather different:

I think the misperceiption is that this is "highly advanved", implying we are "highly advanced".
To a degree, this is true, wie are discussing topics with a spiritual background that is, to put it one way, highly advanced compared to what the average human being experiences.

The other side is, the "know yourself" part, or i would call it "emotional maturity".
There is no judgement intended, but an observation.
I perceive many here, and i do nor exclude myself, als emotionally very immature.
We MIGHT like to view us as highly conscious people, but i think this is not really true.
Being conscious to me means, being very present, being really in the moment, being highly AWARE of what is going on INSIDE of us.
To get to that point, it is not enough to discuss on an intellectual level, this is rather an obstacle in my opinion.
It would ne necessary to observe oneself on an EMOTIONAL level, to heal what is coming up, to gain and develop enough awareness that one can stay present when Heavy emotions arise.
This is not an overnight process, but a matter of DECADES Even with highly accelerated growth!
But tend to believe we are "already there".

I found this thread especially interesting in that regard.
There has been shown a lots of pain, not openly expressed but visible or perceivable, with no awareness of the pain obviously.
And interesting enough those people usually arme on the intellectual, abstract and, in my opinion, controlled side of life.

I also have another observation regarding my own posts on this forum:
as long as i write more intellectual stuff, people will relate to it.
As soon as i post something real personal, like past painful experiences or more recent but emotional or painful stuff, there is little to no resonance.
No relating to that, a total lack of compassion, and this causes me quite some sadness!
The only explanation i have at the moment would be, that maybe many don't really want to deal with that stuff.
There might also be other reasons, a misperceiption on my behalf, but when i look at 30 or 40 posts of Mine that were really personal, i wonder, why they arme being so ignored.

This is not meant to invalidate your post, NightOwl, but i think we are more at the beginning of our Journey, rather than highly advanced (i know your context was different).

And so, i almost feel drawn to make a poll on "how much do you think you know yourself" and i'm afraid that The result would probably tend towards way over 50 percent while my perceiption would be CONSIDERABLY lower.
As i said, i do not exclude myself here.
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03-11-2017, 08:41 AM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
To expand on this, and, no judgement but an observation:

I have had a few deep experiences concerning vulnerability.
I realized, that in our inner core we are completely vulnerable.

When we want to access our inner being, we have to allow complete vulnerabilty, and when we want to REALLY interact with others on a true and deep level, we HAVE to present ourselves in our complete vulnerability.
This does not mean, that we automatically will get seriously hurt, but there's the Risk of being so.

And i totally understand, why this is difficult and for some impossible, since we all have been seriously wounded in the PAST!

However, in all that abstract philosophical discussion, WE do not really offer much of ourselves.
We offer simply a logical and intellectual construct, and not all all deeper parts of ourselves.
This has the advantage, that we are not vulnerable.
When someone doesnt like what we say, or does even attack, it will hit only our intellectual construct, it will not historische vulnerable core.

There are many people hear that i have read many posts from, and the only thing i can state is, there is a brilliant logical mind at work, but i cannot feel a "person", there is no one to graspable behind all these intellectual constructs.

And honestly, i think there is a high degree of arrogance (applies to me also) involved; in considering this advanced or wisdom or whatever, when the truth is actually someone hiding behind these impressive words out of fear to be hurt!

You may all hate me now...
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Billy, Nicholas
03-11-2017, 08:48 AM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I think it would help me understand your perspective if you could tell me which part of my post isn't consonant with yours as so far they seem quite going in the same direction to me. I just tried being methodical because there was a lot of things to say and I would have lost myself without any structure. At the root I think we say the same thing: we need to look within, know ourselves, acknowledge the pain and try to heal. That's really the core of my message. I just think unless we approach this with a good structure it's very vague and one can have a very hard time knowing where to start or how to approach one's own blocage. I am aware my suggestions are not enough but thats as far as my perception lets me operate.

The creator is on both sides of the mirror but it's essence lies in the reflection itself. Dive within and it shall be reflected through you
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03-11-2017, 08:55 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 09:03 AM by Night Owl.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
Also I'm very open to share my vulnerability when having one on one interactions I just don't think it serves these kind of threads well as it will inevitably distort social subjects into personal ones. My take on this is that although we have to acknowledge the pain we also have to acknowledge the different levels of pain. Putting them all in the same basket is sure to cause more confusion and get each of us further from the actual source of these different pains.

I would add that I sense from many of your post your eager to share a very important information that is: rationalisation is a cover for pain. But I would say pain is also often the result of mind constructs, which is why I would suggest it is also good to see vulnerability in sharing the mind construct as well. And to discuss them is also taking steps toward knowing oneself. Acknowledging vulnerability is very important but it's also very important to be able to move along life not feeling like a victim as that creates a very strong feeling of seperation within oneself.

The creator is on both sides of the mirror but it's essence lies in the reflection itself. Dive within and it shall be reflected through you
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03-11-2017, 09:05 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 09:10 AM by Billy.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
(03-11-2017, 08:41 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote:  You may all hate me now...

I really liked and agreed with your posts Agua.  Trying to really connect with people has been for me the absolute hardest thing to do, and I imagine it is the same for many, if not most people.  How much of ourselves do we really share with others?  How much of ourselves are we even aware of?  How can you share yourself with another when you hardly know who you are?  I'm sorry that your more personal posts were ignored or not given as much attention.  I don't think people are doing that intentionally, I think it is as you say, a result of wounding and emotional fatigue and immaturity. I liked the perspective given that bring4th should not be viewed as a place made up of 'advanced' people, but just humans, humans who have some sort of interest in the Ra material and spiritual concepts, who nonetheless suffer from the same weaknesses as the rest of humanity. Carla would often say that 'we are all bozos on this bus' and I edge closer to that view everyday.      
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03-11-2017, 09:35 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 09:39 AM by Agua del Cielo.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I was not speaking of you, NightOwl, i am sorry if it came across like that!

And i also agree with much of what you said!

And, i also do not advertise drowning and getting lost in emotions and also not falling into a victim thing, i totally agree with you here!
What i try to advertise is allowing the emotions fully, with complete awareness. there would be no space for a victim Identity then.
But this would require continous practice.

On social vs. personal pain, i was inclined to say all pain is Personal.
But youre right, there is also collective pain.
i would say however one can only heal and deal with the personal "portion", that part one experiences.

on pain aus a result of mind constructs:
i would not completely agree here.
From my experience out of inner work the sequence would be:

First you have a painful experience in very Young years, Most likely the first 1 to 3.
As a means to defend the pain a mental construct is being "born".
This construct in later years leads to misconceptions and causes pain.

The very basis however would be the original pain.
and this pain will be contained in the further, related experiences, but only as a much weaker echo.

By allowing these emotions and experiencing them consciously, the need for defense gets lessened (obviously) and sooner or later one will get deeper and deeper to the very root.
And, there is no need to pass on that pain anymore, since one is able to hold it oneself!

The intellectual route is quite different.
I dont want to invalidate intellect here, not at all. It has it's place definetely.

However, no thought is the truth or can be the truth.
A thought is an abstraction, a means of seperation.
Experience love, or pain for example.
Now THINK about love. This is completely different and is not Love anymore, but an abstraction of love.

Each thought seperates you from yourself, you dont experience yorself anymore but an abstraction of you.
It is simply impossible to think and to be conscious at the same time.
When we think, wie are unconscious.

Now this is no accident, but an important function of the ego.
One of the reasons it was installed in the First place was to seperate one from the pain one experienced, and it was very successful in this.
When the pain has been severe enough and fear continues, a highly intellectual approach is very likely, since it will seperate you constantly from yourself and thus controlling and suppressing old and potentially new pain.

The intellectual road on the spiritual path would try to dissolve the Defense mechanism by means of the Defense mechanism itself.
This is not likely to be successful i believe.

edit:
I have to add, i really really like this discussion! Thank you for sharing, inspiring, and pointing out different aspects Sad
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03-11-2017, 09:38 AM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
You raise a very good point billy. Sharing oneself with others is hard when you know how much you don't know yourself. Even though I feel like I have a gift for understanding others I don't think I have this gift for myself and so relying on the external is crucial for me in understanding how humans/reality/universe works. I think there lies my gift as well. Most people don't realize that when they look at others they perceive themselves instead of others which cause great seperation and projection. When I look at others I don't perceive myself and so I really see them. That makes it very easy for me to place myself in another's shoes but very hard for me to share my shoes with others as I have no idea who's in my shoes. Well I could compare myself to others and find out I understand myself better than most people but I am so aware of everything I don't know about me and about everything I just can't take for granted that I know myself, I can only be open to deepen this knowledge with time. So far all I have is a pretty good description of how things work out, how energy exchange and how reality between interactions work out. But if someone ask me a question as simple as who are you I just really don't know, I never did and it doesn't seem like I will eventually reach a state where it will feel like I can say yes I know now.

Hope that satisfies your need for personal interaction agua.

The creator is on both sides of the mirror but it's essence lies in the reflection itself. Dive within and it shall be reflected through you
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03-11-2017, 09:45 AM,
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I honestly Thank you for that, NightOwl!
Real deep thanks!
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03-11-2017, 09:50 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017, 09:55 AM by Night Owl.)
RE: The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology
I think the kind of pain you describe as the root is one kind of pain. But there are many kinds of pain and in that lies my first interaction. The kind you describe I would say is the root of red/orange blocage. But as life goes on and we experience the yellow ray (social interactions) we create new pains because of social constructs. I can atest I have experienced the kind of pain you described when I was younger I just think I have made peace with the root. I much more suffer now from derivations of social pain like projections from others, feelings of being not understood, feeling trapped inside social constructs totally absent of understanding of the individuals. I mean I am a man. If someone comes to me and puts me inside the oppressor box in the feminist debate just because I am a man, I feel totally as oppressed as women because I've never considered oppressing a woman myself. If anything women around me seem more free than I ever felt like. I have to constantly seperate myself from social constructs in order to even feel like I exist because inside the social box of norms there's just no place where I can exist. I have to be alone in order to experience a feeling of liberty and perception of my own existence else I just feel like I'm in some other people's nightmares.

The creator is on both sides of the mirror but it's essence lies in the reflection itself. Dive within and it shall be reflected through you
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