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09-04-2017, 04:02 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-06-2018, 08:41 AM by GentleWanderer.)
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09-04-2017, 04:39 PM,
#2
RE: What is narcissism ?
Anything can become imbalanced through under activation or over-activation. An over activation of self love would lead to narcissism (you think you are the best thing since sliced bread). This could lead to a feeling of elitism. And an under activation of self love leads to something like social anxiety disorder (you never think you are good enough). These are orange and yellow ray distortions to wrestle with. Most everybody goes through both of these at various points in their life.

A positive level of self love would be an appreciation of self as an extension of the creator (a being of infinite worth), but also contain a degree of humble awareness that all beings are also of infinite worth, and should be appreciated as such.  

Your faculty of will is that which is powerful within you as co-Creator. You cannot ascribe to this faculty too much importance.
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09-04-2017, 04:42 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-04-2017, 05:07 PM by xise.)
#3
RE: What is narcissism ?
It really all turns on definitions on a theoretical level, but on a practical level in terms of people who are often labeled as narcissists or narcissistic, I think the practical labels of narcissism often describes compensating for a deep lack of self-love by doing all external self-loving acts (without actually feeling it internally, thus the increased need to continuing to do more and more external acts of self-love that barely touch the deeper lack).

I think this article covers this practical distinction: Self-Esteem Versus Narcissism

Quote:Self-esteem differs from narcissism in that it represents an attitude built on accomplishments we've mastered, values we've adhered to, and care we've shown toward others. Narcissism, conversely, is often based on a fear of failure or weakness, a focus on one's self, an unhealthy drive to be seen as the best, and a deep-seated insecurity and underlying feeling of inadequacy.


(Another sometimes-used definition of narcissism is simply self-love, and if that's your definition, the analysis and understanding is totally different.) 

-----

TLDR, Narcissism, as commonly used, describes external compensation for a deep lack of inner self-love, usually manifested through selfish external actions. 

Service to Others means Service to All. That includes yourself.
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09-05-2017, 03:41 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-06-2018, 08:42 AM by GentleWanderer.)
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09-05-2017, 03:59 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-06-2018, 08:43 AM by GentleWanderer.)
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xise
09-05-2017, 04:06 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-05-2017, 04:07 PM by xise.)
#6
RE: What is narcissism ?
(09-05-2017, 03:59 PM)GentleWanderer Wrote:  
(09-04-2017, 04:42 PM)xise Wrote:  It really all turns on definitions on a theoretical level, but on a practical level in terms of people who are often labeled as narcissists or narcissistic, I think the practical labels of narcissism often describes compensating for a deep lack of self-love by doing all external self-loving acts (without actually feeling it internally, thus the increased need to continuing to do more and more external acts of self-love that barely touch the deeper lack).

What i was trying to understand is the different gradations of narcissism is there are such a thing. At what point does it becomes what is called narcissistic personality disorder ? At what point does narcissism lead to becoming sts, i'm sure there are many people with this issue who are still sto.

With narcissism, it appear that a false Self need to be created and cherished to such an extent that the true, natural Self would be repressed and forgetten. Right ?

What do you think of the case of sincere seekers, teachers who had genuine realization, access to cosmic consciousness but later regress in to narcissism ? It appears that some gifted artists aren't immune to that.

If we're working the concept of narcissism as acting selfishly stemming lack of self-love, I would say that non-polarized, and early sto and sts could use this method. But as the concept is defined, I think only nonpolarized would continue to be narcissitic. STO would generated true self-love and grow beyond the need for narcissicitic compensation, whereas STS would also learn true self-love and would further increase their selfishness, but would do so without the neediness that accompanies the traditional narcassist (think in terms of the difference between a needy narcassist acting out of a need to cover a lack of self-love (maybe Trump?) versus the psychopath who is in complete acceptance of themselves and loves themselves and has accepted that they wish to manipulate/harm/dominate others).

So I think narcissism, given the above definition, is mainly only the long-term path of those struggling to polarize or the unpolarized.

Service to Others means Service to All. That includes yourself.
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09-06-2017, 02:08 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-06-2017, 07:08 AM by JayCee.)
#7
RE: What is narcissism ?
(09-05-2017, 03:59 PM)GentleWanderer Wrote:  With narcissism, it appear that a false Self need to be created and cherished to such an extent that the true, natural Self would be repressed and forgetten. Right ?

What do you think of the case of sincere seekers, teachers who had genuine realization, access to cosmic consciousness but later regress in to narcissism ? It appears that some gifted artists aren't immune to that.

I have two cases in my extended family, both females and both imo narcissistic. One of them was a very spoilt child, the other one grew up in a dysfunctional family with parents likely also narcissitic.

What I realized after some time was... they actually believe they are the good ones. No matter how mean they are towards others, it is always the other persons fault. They are always right.
They use manipulation, blackmail and lies but still it is the other person who is to blame.

This tendency they have to externalize is very very strong and it is a protective mechanism that allows them to avoid the darkness inside themselves, by always projecting it.
Impossible to get through to them. If you try, and point out their behavior you will probably be another bad guy in their book.

In the case of the seekers who had realization and regressed later, the realization was not full and complete. As simple as that. They might have thought it was, and I know from experience that some of those enlightenment experiences can be very convincing but still it was only that.
Only an experience that came and went. Not the full monty.
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09-06-2017, 09:32 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-06-2017, 09:37 AM by Nau7ik.)
#8
RE: What is narcissism ?
Interesting observations JayCee! I've also made these observations. This is a phenomena happening in the consensus of some groups of people. They can literally do no wrong, everyone else is to blame. There is no talking to them. Any disagreement means you are an enemy, a bad guy. These people project their darkness onto everyone else and then attack those ppl for reflection g their own distortions. They refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions.

This attitude or mindset is self centered narcissism. It's second ray drop down. They actually don't like themselves very much, but that's painful to see clearly, so it's projected onto others. A narrative is created in the mind about who they are, and when reality is not reflecting that back to them they get angry, angry at others. They have to continually reinforce that false view, which is not accepting or Understanding or loving. These people become everything that they hate. They ARE everything that they hate.

Again, there is no talking to this type of person. You can try, but they simply cannot understand you. There is too much blockage to actually "hear". I believe these types will have to undergo healing after the incarnation to smooth out these distortions, if it's not somehow done in the incarnation. It's absolutely possible, just painful and uncomfortable.
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09-06-2017, 10:08 AM,
#9
RE: What is narcissism ?
Yes, Nau7ik, they get angry! Or even rage. It is called narcissistic rage.
I think trying to keep up the facade of the false persona requires crazy amounts of energy.
That alone shows you under what pressure those people are constantly.
Should someone threaten that careful construct they erupt in violent outbursts.
I am glad I was finally able to understand what goes on because I really did not get their behavior for years.
One of those females I mentioned is married to my brother.
He had to give up all independent thought with the marriage. She does not like our family?
No problem!
She brought him so far that he actually stopped seeing his parents and siblings for years. He is not allowed to disagree with anything she says or else she goes into a rage.
And still they present themselves as a match made in heaven.
My brother is maybe some sort of co-narcissist (is that a word?) ( <- I am thinking of codependence like with alcoholics etc)
because one is not allowed to say anything against his wife or else he will go into (co-narcissistic) rage.
Or maybe Stockholm syndrome, I dunno. She successfully hijacked him and he fell in love with the oppressor.
It is weird when he goes into his rage because it is as if some script is being played out and he has to follow it, sort of automatic, it feels very strange to me.
The other day when it happened I refused to play along. He was spouting his usual BS, that I did not like his wife and had said nasty things about her in the past and he did not like me for that blablabla.
And I simply said “ok, it is ok, just leave it be, you are right” or something like that and did not defend myself.
His script did not get fuel anymore and he stopped. We talked about something else.
And after a while he actually apologized to me! Which I don’t think has happened before.
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09-06-2017, 12:09 PM,
#10
RE: What is narcissism ?
I forgot to mention something which is very important in that regard also...
if you are a narcissist and therefore one of the "good guys" and everyone else is bad and to blame, it ensues that they are the agressor and you the poor victim.
(Why do I get a picture of Obama blabbing about "russian agression" now, haha... )
So in that example of my brother cutting off contact with our family, they had to rationalize it of course.
They wrote nasty letters to my parents accusing them of all kinds of stuff and wrongdoing and explaining that therefore they had to cut contact.
My parents were at a loss to comprehend it - I mean some of the stuff they accused was simply ridiculous, for example blaming my mum that my brother did not know how to iron!
because of course sister in law could not be bothered with ironing his shirts. I mean she does not work either, they have no children (thank god) and he helps with the household so I sometimes wondered what it was that she actually does during the day but now I realize of course - she is keeping up the facade! and that in itself is a full time job.
So no wonder it was such a problem for her that he did not know how to iron shirts.
For those of you who read the few posts I made you already know I have an issue with guilt. So naturally them viewing us as horrible people made me feel guilty. They can be quite persuasive and well, they believe their own bullshit so I actually thought maybe they are right and I apologized. (because after all I had made some critical remarks about my sister in law some time ago )
Only to be answered that my apology was not genuine and getting a portion of the narcisstic rage.
You see where that leads?
They cannot in any way allow to let someone exit the bogeyman role. If you don't apologize you are bad for not apologizing. If you do apologize well it is not genuine anyways. It is a catch 22.
The only thing that helps me now is that I recognized their pattern, I know their behavior and what to expect of them... and I know it is not me.
It is them.
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09-06-2017, 05:13 PM,
#11
RE: What is narcissism ?
IMHO a narcissist is somebody who is seeking the self through external validation. I don't think it's necessarily STS; it's mostly just a lack of security.

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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09-06-2017, 06:27 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-06-2018, 08:43 AM by GentleWanderer.)
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03-03-2018, 06:31 PM,
#13
RE: What is narcissism ?
(09-04-2017, 04:02 PM)GentleWanderer Wrote:  What is narcissim, narcissistic personality disorder ? Do you have an understanding of this phenomenon ?
Is there such a thing as healthy narcissism opposed to pathological ?

It's a term, like many others that describe behaviours which lie beyond the parameters of what is understood. Some individuals that are imprisoned for a long, long time, display no remorse whatsoever. These individuals can be diagnosed as narcissistic or even psychopathic. But all of these made up terms are constructed from within a moralistic and/or investigative perspective. An entity that shows no sadness or sorrow for their actions might very well be focused on polarising towards the negative. I think Anthony Hopkins exemplifies this well in the Film "Fracture". 

Personally speaking, I believe narcissism to be a form of deep depression. Ernest Becker in his book The Revolution in Psychology terms depression as "cognitively arrested alternatives". This could also be termed personal thinking, or habitual thinking. This explains addictive behaviour from a psychological viewpoint, where a certain strategy or pattern (aka manipulative techniques) assist in the process of evading contact with the child within. ( I suspect that's what Ra were referring to when they said "...unready mentally to face the self for the first time" at 40.15 ).


Your second query is intriguing to me. By "healthy narcissism" do you mean focusing on meeting our own needs and blocking out distractions? If that is so then yes it is healthy if we are intending to show greater care and respect for ourselves. Self help books could be seen as "healthy narcissism" as they can facilitate the process to re-evaluate what our values are in relation to what has been previously explained. There might be some confusing elements to our early education that need some re-examination. If that makes sense then healthy narcissism could be seen as an orderly process, and the pathological version could be seen as a disorderly process.

Ultimately though, pathology's, illnesses, disorders, and all other mental constructions do not aid us in connecting with each other. They may alleviate our fears on an individual or social level, but they are strategies nonetheless.
...the highest wisdom is to suffer all men to have full liberty to think on all subjects in their own way. - OAHSPE  
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