(11-09-2015, 04:48 PM)Aion Wrote:(11-09-2015, 02:52 PM)Monica Wrote:(11-09-2015, 04:15 AM)Aion Wrote: 'We' don't know this apparently 'obvious' thing and while I understand you are generalizing for your own views I think it's important to keep in mind that it isn't the only way to describe the situation. I do accept that as your assessment of the situation and consider it valid.
Aion, any 'average' person will agree that victimizing, harming and killing another person is wrong or even evil. That is generally accepted by most civilized societies. Violence is frowned upon and considered 'bad', and acceptable only in matters of self-defense. Most people also allow exceptions for war, because they've been brainwashed into believing that's acceptable too. They also allow exceptions for those considered 'not human' ie. animals, unborn babies, and, in the past, even humans who've been dehumanized based on the color of their skin or some other racial or cultural trait. But for the most part, hurting others isn't cool. That's just basic.
Most average people also believe in a talking snake and an ancient book and simplistic ideas of heaven and hell, so that really doesn't mean anything, except to point out that they do at least grasp the BASICS, whereas the basics seem to have been lost here.
Here, in the hallowed halls of Bring4th, where highly evolved aliens told us there is no such thing as right or wrong, while simultaneously going to great lengths to emphasize the importance of honoring free will, it has become fashionable to be so politically correct that nothing can ever be said to be 'wrong' and anyone who dares to do so is deemed unpopular.
If we were discussing whether it's acceptable to torture and kill a human, most people would agree that DUH of course it is wrong, because DUH of course it's violating that person's free will and right to life.
But because we're talking about animals, somehow it's ok to question whether keeping them confined to a tiny cage where they cannot even turn around for their entire lives, and then slitting their throats as they struggle in terror, is a violation of their free will???
I know your musings are valid, but do you really have no concept of the 'wrongness' of violating another entity? Is that seriously a foreign concept to you? Or is it the speciesism that's so difficult to shake? Would you be asking these questions if we were discussing raping and killing humans?
No disrespect intended. I really am just incredulous that you're disputing whether the animals wish to be treated well and live their lives. This is a basic, fundamental drive shared by all sentient entities, unless they're literally insane or otherwise emotionally messed up.
But here's the kicker: Even for those who ARE so emotionally damaged that the normal, healthy desire to live has been taken away from them, how is that even relevant to this conversation? How does that ever justify harming that person just because there is some remote possibility that they might be that 1 in 1000 who has a death-wish?
(11-09-2015, 04:15 AM)Aion Wrote: However, this 'obvious' thing you are saying is clearly not so universally obvious or else everyone would just be agreeing already. I am exploring in to the nature of this disagreement. I, so far, have been unable to stand in a position on either side but I believe in my confusion I can't really tell why the argument exists. Again, it appears to come back to the fact that different people have different ideas regarding freedom of being and what the boundaries of that freedom are.
I think it's very simple: Societal conditioning creates neuropathways in the brain, and it's easier to just stay on those same neuropathways than it is to create new neuropathways. This has been proven by science. It requires some sort of leap in consciousness to create new neuropathways. (See What the Bleep for an illustration of this.)
I contend that it IS obvious that the animals have free will and don't want to be tortured or killed. It is obvious to anyone who is willing to actually LOOK at them and SEE what is obvious.
It won't be obvious to those who refuse to watch the slaughterhouse videos and face what they are actually supporting. But that doesn't mean it isn't obvious. It just means they are in denial and stubbornly refusing to SEE what is obvious.
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This post is my point in case with what I was saying. Nothing more to say here. I will just concede and say sure, I'm morbid and damaged, thank you for noticing.
????? When I used the term emotionally damaged I was referring to those you mentioned earlier, who do want to be harmed. (Or was it Elros who said that? One of you pointed out that Not everyone wants to live.) My point was that the normal, healthy way of life is to want to live, to NOT want to be harmed or tortured. Sure, some do, but those are deviations.
HOW in the world did you think I was talking about YOU?? The only thing I said about you directly was when I asked you the direct question, do you truly Not see harming others as inherently wrong? That's the only time I referenced you directly. I never said you were damaged.
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