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Unbound

This is something I just can't seem to get over. I acknowledge that all money comes from other individuals and thus in order to in any way obtain money it must be received from or taken from other individuals. Thus, there must either be the incentive for other individuals to give you their money, necessitating some kind of service or exchange, or of course, one can steal, but that isn't really my thing.

The spiritual traditions I have interacted with all have varying values and ideas towards money, what it is, what it means and why it exists. There are also some that touch on what you can do with it. However, the difficulty I run in to is valuing things according to a monetary value. People don't have consistent, universal values so what may be worth a lot of money to one may be worthless to another. Yet, in the spirit of equality, there is the desire to give everyone a fair and equal exchange, even though what everyone determines is fair and equal may not be the same.

I work for a living at a restaurant. I exchange my labour, and for some reason because I am leaving my home, going out and doing something with my body, I feel that I am justified in receiving the payment. However, there are few other things or methods I have found comfortable in regards to payment as I feel that unless I am giving a physical effort then I can hardly say I have "worked" as mental effort is something I do almost habitually so turning that focus towards helping others never seems like "work".

I have contemplated a billion other ways of making money, from the lottery, to owning a business, to selling spiritual services (like Reiki) or even just doing things for donation, or selling home-made items or doing coaching and support or teaching music or writing books, and all sorts of things. I suppose I could do all of them if I really wanted to and I like the idea of doing them for the sake of doing them but as soon as I include the logistics of money in with them they suddenly become frustrating and hard to think about and focus on.

Money has always been a challenge in my life, but at the same time my family have always had an outlook that even if you aren't doing well financially there is still a lot to be thankful for and it's always better to look towards what can be done to make life a fulfilling experience than dwell on the fact that there are financial challenges. So, even so I am very much struggling financially and with a mountain of debt there is some kind of comfort I have towards that since I have "accepted" it. The idea of having freedom of finances is almost a dream, a wish that is too good to be true and I have a hard time imagining myself in that state. I have very much defined myself through my constant struggle with the different sides of myself and one of these that is a foundation is certainly my perception of myself in terms of societal wealth.

I have lauded up the "bum" lifestyle and look, always considering myself to be poor. Poor, that word sounds dirty in my mind, but it feels so comfortable knowing that I am that, being poor I have no expectations and no one expects anything from me. Being rich would mean I would have so much more to lose and so much more to be responsible for.

Yet, I am doing financially better than a great many people, at least keeping a home, working and managing some hobbies. So there I feel I should have no complaints about the state of my life and I should just accept it how it is and struggle as I am meant to struggle.

I am still always fighting it though, even though it is such a part of me, there has been a glimpse of other possibilities, faint on the other side of the veil, but I see them there. Sides of myself that can emerge and will completely change the personality I exist as in the world. Money is freedom in the social world, but it is not freedom anywhere else. I do not know how to work with money beyond labour without feeling every time I receive it I am in some way taking something for nothing.

What do you all think, what is money to you?
I am about to refinance my mortgage and save like $300 / month or more. At least I won't be breaking even any longer, or being a little upside down since my mom stopped giving me money each month.

Financially I am doing ok otherwise. Money is not something I worry about. Though I do live paycheck to paycheck. I am a month ahead on my student loans, so I'm able to skip a payment and save another $300. Once I pay off my 3 loans, it will be much easier.

When I did healing work before I never charged for healing or doing energy readings or shifting energy in people. I used to be pretty good at it. Though I never did the Quantum Touch which could supposedly shift broken bones back into place.
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And I cried one day when my brother stole $100 from my checkbook and took me negative in my account. And I thought I had problems.

Unbound

But don't you feel that with wealth you could use that to try and help bring a better state of living to those people? That is my challenge, as I see it that if I did have a lot of money, I would pour it in to humanitarian, peace and educational efforts towards a better life for everyone, but I agree with you, it doesn't seem right being "well-off" when there is so much suffering in the world.
What are middle class citizens, like richer than 99% of the World?

Unbound

My girlfriend and I are a good twenty grand in debt, but we manage to pay our bills, we have four cats and a home and it is beautiful, but we also spend most of our time working just to keep up.

Then again, at least we have food and warmth and comfort, so should I never feel like I am "allowed" to get any wealthier?
I work about 48 hours a week, 8-5 daily. But it's not too bad. It's a desk job.
A friend helped me get this job, so I'm not sure what I'd do if I lost it. I don't do well
with interviews.

I'm like $140,000 in debt counting my mortgage and student loans, and a US Treasury loan from a failed business.
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I am already pretty obese (253 pounds, 5'10.5") but it's not morbidly so.
I still can't stop eating the junk/fast food. And drinking sweet tea or sodas almost daily.
My meds also made me gain weight.

I wouldn't really have a story of suffering. Not much to share in that regard.
I do pretty good for myself, save for the mounds of debt. But I am slowly moving forward.

Unbound

I used to think that about myself a lot too, that I would abuse the wealth that I had if I had it, but I have been starting to think that is just an excuse and deterrent I have given myself to not do the work that would lead to the wealth. The issue for me is that I have realized I am actually suppressing my activities in an attempt to not make money and it's having an adverse effect on my creative interests. I realize I actually self-sabotage to a degree to try and keep myself "worthless" so I don't have to deal with the logistics of having to manage money.

However, as I'm going on, I'm realizing that a big reason I have this view of myself is because I think I squander what little I have now, but the more I go on, the more I realize that it's not wrong to spend money on myself or on others and that this whole "anti-self" approach is maybe just a big mental trap.

If we are indeed all one, then why should I assume that any money spent on myself is "wasted"? I wonder if there is a deeper self-avoidance at play here.
I currently don't buy any more than the necessities, but I pay to fix things that break. Or to maintain my truck. But I don't buy things for myself usually.

Unbound

I buy things that I believe are useful or that I intend to make use of, but then again, I am thinking, if something brings you joy, is that not worthwhile?
Perhaps I am somewhat tight with my money. But then again, I do eat out so I don't save every penny.

Unbound

Well, the way I grew up we were always struggling financially, but my Mom would always go out of her way to try and give us experiences and privileges even if it meant she would have to work more or borrow money or deal with debt. It was always more important to have the experience with family or inspiration or to do something light-hearted than to be successful financially because money was seen as something temporary that comes and goes, but our experiences are with us for life.

I think I have developed a sort of complex from that where I believe money should be avoided for the sake of experience, but as I get older I'm realizing there are some major flaws with that point of view.
i completely see what u mean...i find myself contradicting myself a lot when it comes to this issue. i think i've realized the root of the issue:

laziness

Unbound

So many, many good excuses to be lazy. It is easy to say we are being "more spiritual" but really, I don't think that is usually the case aha
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Unbound

I think that is the sad truth for myself as well. I don't want the responsibility that money brings, the responsibility I will have towards the expression of myself. If I have financial stability, I no longer have excuses to avoid my passions or to avoid my preferences and interests in favour of the view that to sacrifice myself is "right". That being said, I don't have to hold these views as it is, but I believe every part of life is interconnected and I have to look at my potential.

I believe our potential is our responsibility. It's not that money would enable me to express my potential, but rather I avoid money because I believe that if I don't have to worry about it, I will then no longer have an excuse to not make use of my highest potential, which in my mind seems like a lot of work, although in reality is probably much more natural and fluid.
Winning the Lottery also has its troubles. You'd be noticed by the illuminati, and probably expected to join them or participate in their events. Or some other wealthy groups. You'd be drafted into some groups that you might not otherwise know about.

I'd rather just live a simple life, without all the social interactions.

Unbound

Why, is it too much work to interact with others? I have been hearing that from a lot of people lately.
If I was wealthy, I wouldn't know other people's intentions.
Well, I don't know them regardless.

Unbound

Is fear of what others may do a good reason not to explore a life of wealth?
There are degrees of wealth. To have an income of $100,000 a year is considered chump change by highly wealthy people, yet is considered quite kingly by those who make $15,000 a year.

We all have the ability to RE-define ourselves. Whatever questions of responsibility that come up in the redefining process, once addressed and balanced, simply become the new normal. No one said that this kind of self-change is supposed to be easy, but if you truly desire to change, you will take the proper internal and external actions needed to undergo such a change.

Your imagination may be very limiting right now, and that's ok. Allow yourself to re-imagine who and what you are, and in time if you see a new avenue that not only seems alluring but feels right, then no matter how challenging it is, you'll begin to actually enjoy the challenges!
This is something that I have also struggled with this entire incarnation, even before I became lucid within this dream. I have made some serious progress towards acceptance of the monetary system of this society, but still have nearly identical caveats as you.

My weakest area of acceptance of money is the value placed on different items and services. I feel that some areas are extremely disproportionate to others in what you actually get for your money. I will argue or complain about certain services. For example, I have a huge problem with the cost of healthcare. I went to the hospital for my panic attacks a couple of months ago. All they did was run a blood test, x-ray, and an EKG plus a doctor talked to me for a total of 5-10 minutes out of my 4 hour stay. They charged me around 5-6k dollars... Some of which my insurance picked up. If you went into an auto-repair shop and asked them to run a few diagnostics and they tried to charge you 2k dollars for that, let alone 6k, you would laugh in their face. I feel like the healthcare industry is taking advantage of the fact you are often in pain and fearful for your life when you go to a hospital. That coupled with the fact that when I was in a motorcycle accident back in 2009, I received at $240k hospital bill, my lawyer was able to negotiate that down to $12k. If the hospital can afford me to only pay 5% of my bill, why are they trying to charge so much up front? It seems like the pricing is grossly inflated and I somewhat resent that.

I have progressed in leaps and bounds with the concept of currency in general. I used to reject it all together and wished society would abruptly drop it. Now I have broadened my perspective and see it simply as a requirement to exist in this society at this time. I feel like I could have incarnated into any planet in any time period I wanted, yet I chose this one for some reason knowing in advance what kind of requirements I needed to survive. I am sure this society will eventually realize how incredibly flawed the monetary system is and gradually move away from it. But I can't expect to come here and try to change it right away. It is analogous to agreeing to play a poker game with the appropriate rules, then trying to walk around the table grabbing people's cards out of their hands to see what they have. I agreed to the rules of poker, otherwise there is no game.

As for non-physical labor vs physical labor, I feel I must zoom out to a broader perspective to feel right about accepting money in exchange for non-physical services. I had (and still have to a certain degree) the same sentiments of feeling okay about receiving money for going out and physically doing something yet feel weird about performing any non-physical services for money. I realized that when we go out and physically perform a service for money, that is simply fulfilling our basic red-ray/orange-ray based survival requirements.

But since we are a 3rd density society, we have reached beyond those basics and (at least somewhat) value abstract thought. We pay money for all forms of artwork and often feel justified paying what we pay and also receiving pay for artwork. The artwork doesn't help anyone in their basic need for food and shelter if you ignore that money can be used for food and shelter. A personal example would be my enjoyment of several John Steinbeck novels I recently read. Me reading the Grapes of Wrath does not help me get food and shelter. Yet I very highly value it. I feel that it brings up philosophical/moral dilemmas that provide an opportunity to start thinking more in terms of green-ray and higher catalyst. Of course, that allows someone to make the Choice and evolve above 3rd density.

To put that into perspective, I would argue that once the basic food and shelter needs are met, it is extremely important and valuable to provide 3D entities the opportunity of catalyst to make the Choice and evolve through the densities. That could come in many forms; the most basic of which is through fictional stories that provide philosophical, yet abstract moral dilemmas/allegories. However, for some of those that have awakened to some degree, you can get the same philosophical information more directly through 'channeling' and other similar services. You can also gain insight through receiving metaphysical healing since the healing won't stick if you don't change the behavior that caused the dis-ease. So by extension of us paying for fictional/non-fictional philosophical information, I feel it appropriate to charge for metaphysical services/information.

So Tanner, hopefully I have provided you with a perspective in which you can see monetary value in non-physical labor. Wink

I still run into the same frustration when it comes to paying for metaphysical services. A perfect example is the Bashar channelings. I 100% support that Darryl has chosen to charge for his services... But I feel the pricing is about as twice as much as it needs to be (eg, a 4 hour channeling session mp4 download is about $50). I feel that is pretty darn over-priced but that obviously plays into the subjective nature of how much people value good/services. To offer constructive criticism, I feel it would be more appropriate if he had a minimum donation per video based on how much it cost to produce the video (he rents out conference rooms at hotels and convention centers which is not free). I would be much more comfortable donating money above the minimum in that case.

Regarding being more wealthy than much of the world, I don't feel it is of any benefit feeling guilty. IMO as long as you are not a multi-millionaire being stingy with your money, you are doing just fine. I feel it appropriate to help out when catalyst provides opportunity to do so, but then again I'm not going to give away $24k to charity and abandon my life and possessions (a la Into the Wild. Actually, you may find valuable catalyst in that movie in regards to this topic if you haven't seen it). Not everyone is going to go Africa and join the Red Cross. If you don't have enough money to pay off your debt and stop living paycheck to paycheck, you can't afford to give much/any to charity. Comparing your financial struggles to others in the world is probably not going to be helpful. There is always going to be someone to '1-up' you in how they are struggling in a certain area. Are we supposed to put ourselves through the same level of hardship because they are experiencing that?

The only people that I feel should give away most of their money are the top .01% wealthiest people in the world. They have enough money to provide food and shelter for all the people that need it, but don't give very much out proportionally to their wealth. Redistributing the world's wealth away from those uber-rich people would fix the majority of red-ray survival issues this *planet is having. However, that is the uber-rich's catalyst to deal with; I'm not going to deal with their catalyst for them / control them by trying to take it from them.

*Edit: Typo corrected
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our society generally treat money like it´s a force of nature and forget that it´s an imaginary tool
it´s even more apparent today when the majority of money is just digital numbers.
From my understanding there are enough resources in the world to meet everybody's needs and then some. As for why it isn't done, I guess the short answer would be selfishness. But I don't really know if its as simple as that. Seeing as I still live with my parents and they supply me with food, water and shelter I feel kind of guilty for not donating at least some of the money I do get. I keep asking myself "if my basic needs are met, why not donate the rest?". Being financially stable is obviously preferable then struggling to get by.

I try to be conscious of all the money I spend.

I guess the question I often ask myself is "why do I need to make/have more money then is required to meet my basic needs and of course spend some on myself/buy nice things occasionally?". Perhaps I'm just being naive as I've always had someone supporting me and have never lived on my own and had to 'fend for myself'. I wonder what I would do if I won the lottery.

I also agree with Parsons that non physical service is invaluable and highly important and I don't really see anything wrong with making a living like that. You seem quite adept and I believe you could provide (and of course already have, such as on this very forum) a genuinely helpful service to many. Although it does irk me seeing how much people charge for such services at times. Ahh well.
(11-28-2014, 11:30 PM)Parsons Wrote: [ -> ]That coupled with the fact that when I was in a motorcycle accident back in 2009, I received at $240k hospital bill, my lawyer was able to negotiate that down to $12k. If the hospital can afford me to only pay 5% of my bill, why are they trying to charge so much up front? It seems like the pricing is grossly inflated and I somewhat resent that.
Holy moly. How can anyone be expected to pay that?

(11-28-2014, 09:02 PM)Unbound Wrote: [ -> ]I buy things that I believe are useful or that I intend to make use of, but then again, I am thinking, if something brings you joy, is that not worthwhile?
Damn, that's a really good point.
Hello Unbound.. so oddly enough I read a good portion of the 1st chapter in Star Signs by Linda Goodman earlier today, and also saw you message on Scrying for the first time.

1. Labors of Love and the Money Mystique (astrological career guide, and the achievement of simultaneous financial security and financial freedom)

How does one achieve a life of wealth? A question that seems to weigh heavily on contemporary society, how are we to openly explore and free the mind to fly into the higher realms when we're concerned with financial worries, and whether or not we deserve such an elusive thing. She quotes saying, "the truest words ever expressed on the subject of working, written by the poet from Lebanon, Kahlil Gibran, who warned that work must be performed with genuine love, or it's a waste of time and energy, that if you cannot work with love, it's better that you do nothing until you do find such work, meanwhile accepting charity from those who do labor with love. For as Gibran expressed so beautifully, "bread baked without love is a bitter bread, that feeds but half man's hunger."

It's so common to work a job for the financial aspect of simply surviving, can you genuinely say that you love your work. Yet it's far from easy to just quit your job on the basis that you cannot work with love, how would one survive?

Financial freedom and working a job that fits your individual character, personality, inner motives, and dreams to me would be of similar success, whether it brought you great wealth or not. It's as if we're conditioned to accept our place in the world, blind to our potential, afraid of failure, of beginning. The majority of us wouldn't have the faintest idea where to start to create a life of wealth, or freedom, our dreams and wishes muddled with the pressure to provide/survive. Even when were financially secure, does the job match what we truly want to be doing. How easy to stumble through life with financial freedom or not yet still be dreaming of other potentialities.

How does one make the transition? With time immutable (relative) and aging constant the means of how we make a living and how we truly want to make a living seem to continually escape us as we remain stagnant or accepting of the position we're in. We should understand that, "chronological age is a complete illusion, only made to appear real by the false programming of the mass collective subconscious for centuries. What you do has absolutely no relationship to when you do it." "Don't discard your daydreams as impotent wishful thinking. Listen to them with your inner ear. See them with your Third Eye of wisdom. Let those who have ears, hear; let those who have eyes, see." Follow your "daydreams" energetically, intensely, fiercely -- courageously, even when it means temporarily sacrificing financial security. Your "daydreams" are your blueprint for success and happiness. Believe in them."

On the subject of money; personally it has multiple values, my biggest fascination with money or attempting to amass money would fall under the aspects of freedom.

(11-28-2014, 08:54 PM)Unbound Wrote: [ -> ]I used to think that about myself a lot too, that I would abuse the wealth that I had if I had it, but I have been starting to think that is just an excuse and deterrent I have given myself to not do the work that would lead to the wealth. The issue for me is that I have realized I am actually suppressing my activities in an attempt to not make money and it's having an adverse effect on my creative interests. I realize I actually self-sabotage to a degree to try and keep myself "worthless" so I don't have to deal with the logistics of having to manage money.

However, as I'm going on, I'm realizing that a big reason I have this view of myself is because I think I squander what little I have now, but the more I go on, the more I realize that it's not wrong to spend money on myself or on others and that this whole "anti-self" approach is maybe just a big mental trap.

If we are indeed all one, then why should I assume that any money spent on myself is "wasted"? I wonder if there is a deeper self-avoidance at play here.

I feel it's inevitable, that we find comfort in accepting the complacency we find ourselves in, though we attempt to explore our deeper ambitions the pressure that comes with it isn't something we're used to carrying, so we retract before we begin. The ability for change doesn't compute with our general conditioning. We may want something better for ourselves yet coming to such a conclusion and finding strength to carve through endless barriers of "mental traps" is far to confusing, painful, better to accept and fall in line then push ourselves. Money and selflessness are natural enemies, how would I continue my spiritual explorations when I'm confined to the vanity of what it takes to generate cash flow. Again, it seems like another trap, that deeper self-avoidance. It isn't something for everyone but if you have a skill set that has an ability to generate money, that you genuinely love what your doing, what harm or crime are you committing?

Why should money carry any value at all when its simple a man made system to help structure society, except we can't tangible/physically avoid it as it's engraved in the continually progression of mankind. It's the backbone of perception by societal standards, so with it naturally comes responsibility for the spiritual seeker. You'll have to put money in perspective if it's something you want, if it's something you can attain by doing what you love, that you give back and not become colluded with the idea behind the reputation of wealth then money shouldn't be an issue other then a partial responsibility. Still though, part of me envisions money leaving a sour taste in my mouth, should it? Is the conceptual view of freedom it brings to the personal mind, your ability to help those close to you, and the humanitarian aspects worth it? When do you stop fighting self doubt, conventional wisdom and follow the path that your higher self repeatedly urges you to take. Something I hope to continually progress and better integrate for myself in the coming years.

(11-28-2014, 08:54 PM)Unbound Wrote: [ -> ]The issue for me is that I have realized I am actually suppressing my activities in an attempt to not make money and it's having an adverse effect on my creative interests.

Also this for me is something very similar to what I'm currently experiencing. I have creative interests yet I easily shrug them off and fill my time with entertainment, hanging out, other pursuits, the last few years I've put off creative activities with steep self expectations of becoming a better person, mentally/spiritually, I'd punish myself for this projected idea of a who I "should" be due to the gap between who I was and what I wanted to become, meanwhile neglecting the person underneath with such irrational pressure. Currently attempting to find a healthier balance, and better organize the vision of my future self by allowing a deeper rooted self experience of the person in the present moment. Though it's difficult when you want more for yourself. From the daily quote, "Shall you expand around an issue or shall you contract around an issue? That is your choice. Note that the energies of expansion are locked into the present moment. They do not drift into projections of the future or memories of the past. In the world of love, one begins with the knowledge that all is well. And this pulls one into focus in the center of the present moment."
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