I'd like to know if anyone is aquainted with the Order of the Golden Dawn and if so their experience of it.
I just noticed that the Horus-Hathor Temple no 2 is located in Montreal Quebec. I actually go to school in Montreal so this may look like a pre-incarnative choice. I noticed this because my father told me two days ago that my great-grandfather was a rosicrucian and from the wikipedia page I saw that the Golden Dawn was a rosicrucianism order, synchronicity who knows? I'm very self-education oriented so I don't actually see myself going over there in the near time but it may happen at some point.
I am acquainted with the temple nearby. I would recommend the works of Israel Regardie if you want to see the basis of most current temples.
(03-20-2015, 12:33 AM)AngelofDeath Wrote: [ -> ]I am acquainted with the temple nearby. I would recommend the works of Israel Regardie if you want to see the basis of most current temples.
Anything in particular among it?
Edit : "The Complete System of the Golden Dawn" seems to be what I was looking for.
Yep, although Garden of Pomegranates and Tree of Life are also good additions.
oh look a self-initiation part.
It seems lacking tough.
They're many offshoots of the Golden Dawn but i don't think any official lineage as such exists to this day. Regardie wasn't a member of the golden dawn but its offshoot the Stella Matutina and his teachings are based on that society rather than the original Golden Dawn. Many start up groups use the available material in books to teach a system of grades based on the Tree of Life or Qabalah.
I have been studying the Qabalah for a little while now through different books and the history of the Golden Dawn. I am not sure if it would be something i would want to join after reading some of things about the order such as the cipher document but if you feel its your calling, rock on!
(03-20-2015, 01:35 AM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]oh look a self-initiation part. It seems lacking tough.
That's because it's not really a self-initiatory system, and Regardie explains why in the Introduction to The Golden Dawn. The reason is akin to the Tibetan Buddhist idea of Direct Introduction/Transmission.
http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/dzogc...nsmission/
Thus, self initiation can work, but it is nowhere near the same as being initiated by another whom has already walked many paths.
(03-20-2015, 05:15 AM)Matt1 Wrote: [ -> ]They're many offshoots of the Golden Dawn but i don't think any official lineage as such exists to this day. Regardie wasn't a member of the golden dawn but its offshoot the Stella Matutina and his teachings are based on that society rather than the original Golden Dawn. Many start up groups use the available material in books to teach a system of grades based on the Tree of Life or Qabalah.
I have been studying the Qabalah for a little while now through different books and the history of the Golden Dawn. I am not sure if it would be something i would want to join after reading some of things about the order such as the cipher document but if you feel its your calling, rock on!
No, I don't believe there is any "official" lineage although there are plenty of claims. Although Regardie wasn't a member of the original Golden Dawn the Stella Matutina is consider a "successor" organization and so holding the inheritance of the original Golden Dawn. When the group disbanded he received all of the materials and information and hence the book, The Golden Dawn, was born. Many modern groups only go up to Adeptus Minor because that's only as far as Regardie got and there is some debate surrounding the higher grades.
I have trouble facing my fears or having discipline, which is why I can't be initiated.
You realize those things are only remedied by developing the will?
Everyone starts off the path full of fears and distractions.
I always was under the impression that rituals and the likes were accessories. To my understanding we are all standing still in a singularity so I always had a hard time understanding the importance of rituals within it's matrix.
If one awakens through meditation alone how is it lacking compared to the Golden Dawn's ways?
I didn't say that, they are different systems, different modes which although they may have the same ideal take different routes. Meditation is a large part of Golden Dawn curriculum. Same as in Buddhism where they also learn elaborate rituals. Meditation and self-initiation are not the same things.
The purpose of physical ritual is to engage the body and include it in the working. The other purpose is for group work and activity. The third is as a point of focus. The fourth is as a drama. Ritual drama is seen to parallel the stories of the consciousness so by going through a ritual drama you can easily invoke particular elements of the consciousness that you may grasp them.
Properly, ritual can be seen as a type of very concentrated, focused meditation. It does seem that most people fall in to one side or the other, however. Either people tend to be more ceremonial, ritual oriented, or they tend to be more focused on pure will and meditation. That's what I have noticed anyways. That being said, no way is "more right" than another, but they are different methods with different techniques and experiences along their paths.
I was referring specifically that the Golden Dawn system is not designed for self-initiation so much, not that self-initiation isn't valid.
If I am lacking in intent or willpower, would rituals help?
I would mention that I have experience with both styles. My druidic training teaches me to rely only on myself for my power, but also to make use of whatever is available and necessary. My experiences with rituals have taught me that involving the body in your focus (you could even consider doing yoga to be a type of physical ritual) helps to bridge the higher and the lower together.
(03-20-2015, 12:37 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]If I am lacking in intent or willpower, would rituals help?
Yes, rituals are designed to help develop those things in many ways. Also, they act as a focal point and a method of discipline. A lot of people look at ritual and ceremonial magic and think it's hoaky but from the inside out, it takes a immense amount of concentration, memory and energy. Also, the Buddhist consider ritual works as an excellent way to gather a huge amount of positive energy and then send it out to the benefit of all beings.
Properly, rituals are a method of acute concentration and organization. It's the difference between molding clay purely with only your hands, and having tools to make specific shapes, cuts and designs. Sure, with just your hands you could ultimately make the same thing, but with knowledge of the tools it all happens that much faster and cleaner and more accurately.
I think an important point to remember is that the Golden Dawn wasn't an magical order but an outer order of a Rosicrucian Society. Most rituals are using visualization with words of power and invocation/evocation of archetypes. Making use of the will and creative imagination to mold the astral light.
Ultimately i believe in ceremonial magic we are using our collective consciousness to create change in reality at will. To resonate with the original thought more and more, using different ritual objects and symbols to create a positive change in consciousness of the magus. Linking the conscious and unconscious mind.
I bet they work with Intelligent Energy that created our galaxy. That's probably the purpose of ritual.
Wouldn't it have been both? The temple I have talked with called it simply a "school of magic". If you mean the original Golden Dawn, it was still a magical order, Rosicrucianism works with magic at its core...
Is visualisation central to the works? I have little to no talent in visualisation. With a magic mushroom trip I unlocked the ability but it faded away with time because I did not work on it. Personnally I was under the impression that a visual feedback is not necessary and that it can be done in whatever way is natural to the adept. If not well I've been practicing it without much results but I guess I'll carry on with the practice.
As far as I can see there is still debate on that particular point.
(03-20-2015, 01:55 PM)AngelofDeath Wrote: [ -> ]As far as I can see there is still debate on that particular point.
From non-magical experiences, people who have visualisation as a central part of their thought mechanism usually cannot phantom someone who has no ability with it.
Usually yes. I actually am capable of both visual and non-visual and honestly I just find they function differently. I recommend proficiency in both, but ultimately I believe one should play to their strengths. That being said, being obsessed with balancing, I always try to calibrate all of my capacities together.
That is why I am practicing it, I'm starting to get some result as for it to come naturally. Forcing it cannot work, which is why in my opinion one should start mind's eye work with what he feels most comfortable. With time all capacities should unlock themselves without the frustration of not achieving the expected result.
Only experimentation yields results.
About God names, is facing directions really more efficient and would not simply vibrating their name do the same purpose? In my view reality is a matrix, there is no distance nor direction between things.
Also are such names necessary in themselves or are they more like shortcuts?
There is relativity. Even a matrix has relativity between its different matrice points. The cardinal directions are relative to your central point. Is there distance between the center of your body to the outreach of your hand? This is the sphere of sensation or the aura. The sphere becomes completely filled with light. I'm not sure how you can have a matrix without any relativity between points. A single point does not constitute a matrix. Not sure how matrix equates with no distance or direction as these things are relativistic.
The key is to associate the mind with all aspects and levels of creation. Thus, the four directions, relating to the four primary elements, is a way to key in to all the levels of reality, as well as to call to the powers of all these levels.
In my opinion, I think the rituals should be mastered and one should find proficiency with them in their natural form before attempting to change and modify them. I feel that most people just want quick results, they don't want to have to "get to know" a system before seeing results from it. So people jump in and immediately want to start modifying and changing things that don't immediately make sense, without actually making an attempt to understand why the ritual is the way it is. (Not saying you are doing this, just a common thing I see.)
The Names are considered to be ingrained and an innate part of our collective consciousness and to be gestalts or archetypal concepts which are part of the very make-up of our reality itself. Both Hebrew and Sanskrit (as well as some other languages like Chinese, Egyptian) are actually found naturally within the structure of the universe. In cymatics by intoning the vowel tones from these languages you can actually produce the written letters in sand. Thus, Hebrew is considered not just a regular language, but it actually a key or accessing language for calling to the universe. You could say it's closer to the universe's natural tongue.
Thus, the God-names are again referencing and calling particular levels of consciousness and creation. I believe the Names themselves are 'alive', as I believe that language, letters and symbols have a whole consciousness and intelligence of their own. So when you are calling these names, you are making a personal address to the raw elements of the universe itself. Another aspect is that the intonation of the words and Names themselves has power. So no, they are not shortcuts, they are tools and every tool has a different function. These tools are used together to create a particular effect through the construction of a ritual.
So, the names are Keys. The 'locks' they unlock are the levels of the consciousness as they are tied back to the One. It is a form of conscious recapitulation of the One Thought.
(03-26-2015, 03:19 PM)AngelofDeath Wrote: [ -> ]There is relativity. Even a matrix has relativity between its different matrice points. The cardinal directions are relative to your central point. Is there distance between the center of your body to the outreach of your hand? This is the sphere of sensation or the aura. The sphere becomes completely filled with light. I'm not sure how you can have a matrix without any relativity between points. A single point does not constitute a matrix. Not sure how matrix equates with no distance or direction as these things are relativistic.
The key is to associate the mind with all aspects and levels of creation. Thus, the four directions, relating to the four primary elements, is a way to key in to all the levels of reality, as well as to call to the powers of all these levels.
In my opinion, I think the rituals should be mastered and one should find proficiency with them in their natural form before attempting to change and modify them. I feel that most people just want quick results, they don't want to have to "get to know" a system before seeing results from it. So people jump in and immediately want to start modifying and changing things that don't immediately make sense, without actually making an attempt to understand why the ritual is the way it is. (Not saying you are doing this, just a common thing I see.)
The Names are considered to be ingrained and an innate part of our collective consciousness and to be gestalts or archetypal concepts which are part of the very make-up of our reality itself. Both Hebrew and Sanskrit (as well as some other languages like Chinese, Egyptian) are actually found naturally within the structure of the universe. In cymatics by intoning the vowel tones from these languages you can actually produce the written letters in sand. Thus, Hebrew is considered not just a regular language, but it actually a key or accessing language for calling to the universe. You could say it's closer to the universe's natural tongue.
Thus, the God-names are again referencing and calling particular levels of consciousness and creation. I believe the Names themselves are 'alive', as I believe that language, letters and symbols have a whole consciousness and intelligence of their own. So when you are calling these names, you are making a personal address to the raw elements of the universe itself. Another aspect is that the intonation of the words and Names themselves has power. So no, they are not shortcuts, they are tools and every tool has a different function. These tools are used together to create a particular effect through the construction of a ritual.
So, the names are Keys. The 'locks' they unlock are the levels of the consciousness as they are tied back to the One. It is a form of conscious recapitulation of the One Thought.
Thanks for the answer, usually I picture doing things my way as a slower process but utimetaly yeilding result which resonate more strongly with me.
About the matrix, I picture the One as a singularity within which creators manifest through desire. Each creator is an observer as viewed by quantum mechanics and is also a point of the matrix generating time and space, keeping it coherent with itself as an information-web. This would apply to any entity in existence from 1D to the very end, and a macroscopic observer is made of microscopic observers. Reality is but a part of the astral planes in a way, each point of the matrix is stacked as different quantum states into one singularity. That my view of outside the Octave. The Intelligent Stack of infinite possibilities or experiences. Though outside the Octave simply means beyond the illusion as it is what we currently are too.
Does them being tools imply that there are different tools that some will resonate more or less with? Or are these Universal?
The reason I recommend first gaining familiarity with the 'standard' (not that the standards are always precise) is for comparison and understanding. I believe that rituals like this are kind of like algebra. Each idea or piece of content within it is actually filling a particular form or vessel within the mind. The particular contents that have been built in to these rituals are not just whimsical things thrown in there because it seemed right at the time. They have been used again and again over hundreds, perhaps thousands of years, slowly taking the shape and form that they are in now. These rituals are rather 'modern', however their fundamentals are very universally found if you look closely.
That is a great theory as to the apparent structure of reality, I can't say I disagree with it. However, insofar as I can tell, you are capable of turning and having a relative understanding of your position as positioned relative to the north and south poles of the planet. Thus, your relationship to the planet within the matrix includes these relative ideas of directions. Of course, if you need to absolutely complicate things in your mind by clinging to a particular shape or manner in which reality must take shape. I, personally, see that reality is Void, empty of all things. Thus, for me, any description of how reality is put together will always be partial. I grasp what is before me.
Thus, if you will, the directions, the names, all of the callings are coordinate points which point to your focus as a focal point for the energy of Intelligent Infinity. In otherwords, these tools enable you to find the needle in the haystack of that stack of infinite possibilities.
Tools are tools, resonance is meaningless. That someone is more comfortable with a hammer doesn't at all mean that the hammer is more valuable as a tool compared to a saw or a screwdriver, just that the person feels proficient. Thus, reliance entirely upon 'resonance' to decide what is of use is not very wise thinking, in my opinion.
The real power in these tools lie in the fact that they are interwoven in to the very fabric of reality, and in particular are tied to many minds on this planet throughout time. You could say they are ingrained in the collective consciousness and so when they are used precisely they act as a gateway and key to accessing that same power that is used by all those who used the rituals. In a manner, it causes many individuals across time and space to occupy the same vibration and add power to it. There is a great power in our racial mind that many have yet to grasp.
That being said, the words and intentions behind the words are important. For example, in the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram I believe there is some flexibility in which angels are assigned to which directions. One should feel that each is completely filling or energizing a probable state of mind.
So, I would say tools are always universal in that anyone can pick them up.
I am new here. Let me show my skills in approaching people.
I can initiate, because text for it is laying in my black book for a while now - for some reason. PM me.
(03-20-2015, 12:02 PM)AngelofDeath Wrote: [ -> ]No, I don't believe there is any "official" lineage although there are plenty of claims. Although Regardie wasn't a member of the original Golden Dawn the Stella Matutina is consider a "successor" organization and so holding the inheritance of the original Golden Dawn. When the group disbanded he received all of the materials and information and hence the book, The Golden Dawn, was born. Many modern groups only go up to Adeptus Minor because that's only as far as Regardie got and there is some debate surrounding the higher grades.
I was just on "http://www.golden-dawn.com" and on their main page now they claim to have the rites and rituals to attain Ipissimus
...
For the first time ever, the complete, 3 order Golden Dawn Magick System is available to anyone who is bold enough and dedicated enough to learn it...
You no longer have to end your Magickal training at Minor Adept,
as has been the case for 100 years.
The Secret Masters have finally revealed the rites and rituals
to attain even Ipsissimus (10=1) ...
And he goes on to explain why, etc. I wonder what those of you who know more about this than I think about this.