Bring4th

I had already subscribed to the idea of an emergent/unfolding universe before encountering the Ra materials (thanks mostly to Daoism and Marshall McLuhan),  but one thing I'd always struggled with was how to communicate the idea to someone who sees the world through the linear-causality model of Western rationalism.   The entire idea of higher dimensions being called into existence through energy inputs is rather hard to communicate to someone who wants the cosmos to be a static "box" holding the universe  within.

Then I realized recently that one of the most basic children's toys in the world actually illustrates the principle perfectly: the humble Thaumatrope.  That is,  those spinning discs with a bird on one side and a birdcage on the other.  They're usually meant to demonstrate persistence-of-vision,  but that's only if you're looking at the pictures on the disc.   Something much more interesting is going on when you look at the disc itself.   Because the disc is a fundamentally 2-dimensional construct,  but if you spin it fast enough... It turns into a 3D sphere.

In fact,  if one were to create an (impossibly) precise and high-powered piece of machinery that holds a disc exactly still while spinning it at huge RPMs it would effectively become a sphere.  At high enough speeds,  a person could theoretically even touch it and perceive a smooth curved surface.   At such high speeds  it would BE a 3D sphere for absolutely all intents and purposes.

Ergo,  pumping enough energy into a lower-dimensional construct CAN cause it to transform into a higher-dimensional construct.

Neat,  huh?   I think this might be a useful trick for trying to explain emergent cosmology to materialists,  because it gives them a very concrete way of seeing how dimensional (density) growth can happen in the real world,  so to speak.

Wow, that is so freaking cool.  

So we just have to vibrate and spin ourselves really high and voila, 4th dimension appears.  One key is the collective, we need to collectively reach that potential.  Thanks for the illustration, PeacefulWarrior.

(03-25-2015, 06:26 PM)Shemaya Wrote: [ -> ]So we just have to vibrate and spin ourselves really high and voila, 4th dimension appears.  One key is the collective, we need to collectively reach that potential.  Thanks for the illustration, PeacefulWarrior.

Or conversely, when something vibrates so high it disappears into the 4th dimension.  It is a beautiful illustration.

I like it because it also shows the power is within us. We put the energy into raising the vibe, it is all on us.

(03-24-2015, 02:00 AM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: [ -> ]Because the disc is a fundamentally 2-dimensional construct,  but if you spin it fast enough... It turns into a 3D sphere.

In fact,  if one were to create an (impossibly) precise and high-powered piece of machinery that holds a disc exactly still while spinning it at huge RPMs it would effectively become a sphere.  At high enough speeds,  a person could theoretically even touch it and perceive a smooth curved surface.   At such high speeds  it would BE a 3D sphere for absolutely all intents and purposes.

Wouldn't the sphere still be a 3D illusion? It wouldn't actually "become" a 3D object, it just looks like it is.

Regardless of how fast it moves, physically speaking it's still just a disc rotating REALLY fast - until it becomes pure energy, but by that point time wouldn't be linear and measuring speed (distance/time) would be pointless. It may become a sphere/singularity/energy/whatever in a different dimension, but it was still just an illusion in the former.

I also don't understand how it would be smooth enough to touch without accounting for friction. Sure, I could PERCEIVE a sphere, but again physically speaking I wouldn't want to touch "fast moving particles" that want to take the particles from the tip of my finger with them as they collectively rotate in the shape of disc (giving the illusion of a sphere). The surface of the table in front of me may be smooth as a baby's ass, but if I were to look at the same "smooth" surface on micro level it would look more jagged and bumpy, like a viewing a mountain chain from a distance.

(03-24-2015, 02:00 AM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: [ -> ]I had already subscribed to the idea of an emergent/unfolding universe before encountering the Ra materials (thanks mostly to Daoism and Marshall McLuhan),  but one thing I'd always struggled with was how to communicate the idea to someone who sees the world through the linear-causality model of Western rationalism. 

At first I took Quasimofo's view, that the proposed illustration has as a principal flaw that nothing has fundamentally changed or transformed about the spinning disc, it has only manifested an illusion of appearance to the human observer. However, on further consideration of your idea, I focus in on your word "become" in, "...it would effectively become a sphere."

I suppose that so long as the energy input was constant (or at least the on/off cycle so rapid as to evade our notice), the spinning 2d disc would, for all intents and purposes, be a 3d sphere. Much as mostly empty matter appears solid to us, and is interacted with as if it were solid. Or much as seemingly inert and  motionless matter is, in actuality, alive with incessant movement, or vibration.

At any rate, I think it could potentially help nudge the materialist-bound mind in the desired direction. Great thought experiment.

But if one is looking to help precipitate a breakthrough in the mindset of the committed flatland materialist, if I may reflect in another direction for a moment, I think that one of the most profound and direct roads to expanded awareness is personal experience of non-ordinary states of consciousness.

Ideas, like the one you present, do indeed have power; power both to illuminate and obscure. Surely everyone on this forum has been impacted and awakened by ideas. But everything within the realm of abstract thought can be countered, argued with, denied, negated, etc. Even the most seemingly self-evident of ideas will fall upon deaf ears to he who doesn't wish to hear.

What is harder to deny or close ones eyes to is firsthand, immediate experience of greater orders of reality as happens through changes in consciousness itself. Though even that, too, can be repressed, ignored, or denied. But it is more difficult to deny ones own authentic experience.

Yet... an idea is a form or unit of consciousness that can be communicated from one person to the next. Such ideas, like the one you present which point beyond the material illusion, can be both seeds for changing consciousness, and invitations to enter new consciousness.

(03-25-2015, 08:21 PM)Quasimofo Wrote: [ -> ]Wouldn't the sphere still be a 3D illusion? It wouldn't actually "become" a 3D object, it just looks like it is.

Regardless of how fast it moves, physically speaking it's still just a disc rotating REALLY fast - until it becomes pure energy, but by that point time wouldn't be linear and measuring speed (distance/time) would be pointless. It may become a sphere/singularity/energy/whatever in a different dimension, but it was still just an illusion in the former.

And my basic response would be that this is already happening. That's one of the lessons in Ra's discussions of vibrations, along with virtually everything we know about molecular structures and sub-molecular theory. Even the most "solid" object is still largely empty space, with the vibrations of its component particles creating the illusion of solidity through high-speed interactions. Energy inputs cause atoms and molecules to spin and vibrate, allowing "solid" 3D objects to emerge out of lower-dimensional forms.

The "thought experiment" aspect of this, of course, is imagining a machine that could achieve these absurdly high-energy conditions and maintain them, but that's pretty much exactly how "solid" objects form in our world. This just illustrates how the principle could be applied on larger /more macro levels.

But even movement itself is an illusion. Ra says that consciousness is unmoved.
Bashar says how movement is an illusion.

(03-26-2015, 06:43 AM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote: [ -> ]But if one is looking to help precipitate a breakthrough in the mindset of the committed flatland materialist, if I may reflect in another direction for a moment, I think that one of the most profound and direct roads to expanded awareness is personal experience of non-ordinary states of consciousness.

... What is harder to deny or close ones eyes to is firsthand, immediate experience of greater orders of reality as happens through changes in consciousness itself. Though even that, too, can be repressed, ignored, or denied. But it is more difficult to deny ones own authentic experience.

Yet... an idea is a form or unit of consciousness that can be communicated from one person to the next. Such ideas, like the one you present which point beyond the material illusion, can be both seeds for changing consciousness, and invitations to enter new consciousness.

I agree totally. My basic perspective is that while personal experience is harder to deny, there's still plenty of people who manage to do it. So I think thought experiments and philosophical probing and such can be useful in, so to speak, softening someone up. Get a materialist to even admit the possibility of non-material interactions, even in highly unlikely edge cases, and it increases the chances they'll be able to accept the reality of an experience that defies their preferred worldview.

Otherwise, it's all too easy to say "it's all in my head" and ignore experiences that are too uncomfortable. I spent too many years doing this myself, which is perhaps why I'm so interested in trying to find ways to give people a philosophical hand up, when they're potentially receptive to the idea.

(03-26-2015, 01:23 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]But even movement itself is an illusion. Ra says that consciousness is unmoved.
Bashar says how movement is an illusion.

That depends on whether you're looking from the inside out, or from the outside in.

From a "God's Eye View" so to speak, there is no movement, because the Creator is One. But from our distorted POV, there's plenty of movement. Sort of like how, as Ra said, "past" and "future" don't exist on his level, but are still relevant distortions when discussing our 3D realm.

Concepts like time and movement are useful distortions, basically, when it comes to our experiences and reactions to the catalysts of life here.

(03-26-2015, 01:26 PM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-26-2015, 06:43 AM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote: [ -> ]But if one is looking to help precipitate a breakthrough in the mindset of the committed flatland materialist, if I may reflect in another direction for a moment, I think that one of the most profound and direct roads to expanded awareness is personal experience of non-ordinary states of consciousness.

... What is harder to deny or close ones eyes to is firsthand, immediate experience of greater orders of reality as happens through changes in consciousness itself. Though even that, too, can be repressed, ignored, or denied. But it is more difficult to deny ones own authentic experience.

Yet... an idea is a form or unit of consciousness that can be communicated from one person to the next. Such ideas, like the one you present which point beyond the material illusion, can be both seeds for changing consciousness, and invitations to enter new consciousness.

I agree totally.  My basic perspective is that while personal experience is harder to deny, there's still plenty of people who manage to do it.  So I think thought experiments and philosophical probing and such can be useful in, so to speak, softening someone up.  Get a materialist to even admit the possibility of non-material interactions, even in highly unlikely edge cases, and it increases the chances they'll be able to accept the reality of an experience that defies their preferred worldview.

Otherwise, it's all too easy to say "it's all in my head" and ignore experiences that are too uncomfortable.  I spent too many years doing this myself, which is perhaps why I'm so interested in trying to find ways to give people a philosophical hand up, when they're potentially receptive to the idea.  

 Excellent insight.

I think as we proceed more and more people will be having mystical experiences.  Paranormal experiences and the like ie. telepathy, and experiences of energy, spontaneous kundalini experiences.  And many will be looking for answers to the meaning of their experiences.

Science has been pretty reductionist/ materialist and that is what everyone learns in school.  It is good to have this illustration for the purpose of teaching others who are seeking, it is a very tangible way to foster understanding the concepts of energy, dimensions, and the relationship between energy and matter.