Bring4th

Full Version: Ra doesn't believe in governmental ownership or individual property as responsible?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Quote:22.5 Questioner: Then can you give me a— Can I assume then that this drastic drop from 700-year life span to one— less than one hundred years in length during this second 25,000-year period was because of an intensification of a… of a condition of lack of service to others? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is in part correct. By the end of the second cycle, the Law of Responsibility had begun to be effectuated by the increasing ability of entities to grasp those lessons which there are to be learned in this density. Thus, entities had discovered many ways to indicate a bellicose nature, not only as tribes or what you call nations but in personal relationships, each with the other, the concept of barter having given way in many cases to the concept of money; also, the concept of ownership having won ascendancy over the concept of non-ownership on an individual or group basis.

Each entity then was offered many more subtle ways of demonstrating either service towards others or service to self with the distortion of the manipulation of others. As each lesson was understood, those lessons of sharing, of giving, of receiving in free gratitude— each lesson could be rejected in practice.

Without demonstrating the fruits of such learn/teaching the life span became greatly reduced, for the ways of honor/duty were not being accepted.
I read this passage as meaning that as a third density society becomes more bellicose/STS, that this necessitates the use of money and property ownership.  This makes sense as people would require protection from those who wish to take advantage of others.  Without those protections in that type of society, an economy doesn't function all that well.

If all operated in a full state of honor and integrity, formal property ownership wouldn't be needed - it would just be useless paperwork since all would work to use the land in the best way for all involved, and disputes would be rare and easily resolvable..
Remember, as far as Ra concerned, things like property and government are simply the games we're playing here on Earth.  From his POV, our entire plane of existence is basically imaginary.  

When he says things like

Quote:the concept of barter having given way in many cases to the concept of money; also, the concept of ownership having won ascendancy over the concept of non-ownership on an individual or group basis.

From everything I've read from his comments on human life, he doesn't consider either alternative to be "better" than the other, in the grand scheme.  He's making purely dry commentary: These are the choices humanity is making.  And those choices are creating the experiences through which the Creator grows and we in turn grow closer to the Creator.  

By choosing money over barter, we encourage certain games and depreciate others.  It's not like one path or the other could be termed strictly STS or STO.  People manage to be a-holes in *every* game, haha.  Money has many very useful features and CAN be used in a highly Positive manner.  Or not.  

(See also: "It's A Wonderful Life"  Smile )

That's just part of the game, and it shapes the opportunities wherein a being is able to choose between the STO and STS paths.  No matter who loses, the Creator wins and, thereby, we all win...  in the long run, anyway.

(Besides... it seems HIGHLY likely that we're going to evolve into a post-money culture before too long. I don't think it's Bitcoin that's going to do it, but I do think it's the shape of things to come. And once money becomes purely virtual, that's going to change a lot about how people think of it. Global e-currency is a big step towards a more globally socialized system.)
In my opinion:

It doesn't matter whether you own the property you live on, or rent it, or you are staying with parents. Wherever you are you are caretaker of the environment you live in, and it is under your care. You don't take care of it because you own it, or because you are told to, or for any other reason than you take responsibility for your environment (or your car, or your clothes, or your body, and everything that falls under your care).

Money is just an energetic exchange. Money is just choices, in this current world. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

It is a difference in attitude.
(03-27-2015, 12:51 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]Money is just an energetic exchange. Money is just choices, in this current world. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

It is a difference in attitude.

Yes.
(03-27-2015, 12:51 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]Money is just an energetic exchange. Money is just choices, in this current world. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

It is a difference in attitude.

From the viewpoint of economic science, money is very positive because it solves the problem of coincidence of wants. If there would be no general medium of exchange in society, you would have to do a lot more exchanges in order to get a desired good. Civilization as we know it would not be possible without money. We would probably live in a very tribal and primitive society. There would be much less time for seeking as we have now.
(03-30-2015, 02:57 PM)Poet Wrote: [ -> ]From the viewpoint of economic science, money is very positive because it solves the problem of coincidence of wants. If there would be no general medium of exchange in society, you would have to do a lot more exchanges in order to get a desired good. Civilization as we know it would not be possible without money. We would probably live in a very tribal and primitive society. There would be much less time for seeking as we have now.

I believe that every form of cultural innovation is an evolution on top of the old system. Money was definitely one of those things. I think that it has served its purpose. But we're getting to the point where we can do better than money. That's why I think the LOO material is so useful. It shows us that we're on the cusp of that transformational moment. We should all get ready to see some big changes in society.
(03-30-2015, 03:05 PM)Lighthead Wrote: [ -> ][quote pid='175402' dateline='1427741871']
But we're getting to the point where we can do better than money. That's why I think the LOO material is so useful. It shows us that we're on the cusp of that transformational moment. We should all get ready to see some big changes in society.

And what would that be Lighthead? If there is no money, people would not know what to produce, how much to produce and in what manner to produce in such a complex exchange economy like ours. You need a common denominator with which you can compare alternative uses of scarce resources.

Ra confirms that our modern exchange economy was brought about in order to facilitate seeking:

Quote:11.27 Questioner: By freeing the planetary entities from darkness, precisely what do you mean?

Ra: I am Ra. [Most of the following answer was lost due to tape recorder malfunction. The core of the response was as follows.] We spoke of freeing people from darkness in a literal sense.
11.28 Questioner: Would this freeing from darkness be commensurate with the Law of One or does this have any real product?
Ra: I am Ra. The product of such a freeing would create two experiences.

Firstly, the experience of no need to find the necessary emolument for payment, in your money, for energy.

Secondly, the leisure afforded, thereby exemplifying the possibility and enhancing the probability of the freedom to then search the self for the beginning of seeking the Law of One.

Few there are working physically from daybreak to darkness, as you name them, upon your plane who can contemplate the Law of One in a conscious fashion.
11.29 Questioner: What about the Industrial Revolution in general. Was this planned in any way?
Ra: I am Ra. This will be the final question of this session.

That is correct. Wanderers incarnated in several waves, as you may call them, in order to bring into existence the gradual freeing from the demands of the diurnal cycles and lack of freedom of leisure.
(03-30-2015, 03:20 PM)Poet Wrote: [ -> ][quote pid='175403' dateline='1427742339']
And what would that be Lighthead? If there is no money, people would not know what to produce, how much to produce and in what manner to produce in such a complex exchange economy like ours. You need a common denominator with which you can compare alternative uses of scarce resources.

Ra confirms that our modern exchange economy was brought about in order to facilitate seeking:


Quote:11.27 Questioner: By freeing the planetary entities from darkness, precisely what do you mean?

Ra: I am Ra. [Most of the following answer was lost due to tape recorder malfunction. The core of the response was as follows.] We spoke of freeing people from darkness in a literal sense.
11.28 Questioner: Would this freeing from darkness be commensurate with the Law of One or does this have any real product?
Ra: I am Ra. The product of such a freeing would create two experiences.

Firstly, the experience of no need to find the necessary emolument for payment, in your money, for energy.

Secondly, the leisure afforded, thereby exemplifying the possibility and enhancing the probability of the freedom to then search the self for the beginning of seeking the Law of One.

Few there are working physically from daybreak to darkness, as you name them, upon your plane who can contemplate the Law of One in a conscious fashion.
11.29 Questioner: What about the Industrial Revolution in general. Was this planned in any way?
Ra: I am Ra. This will be the final question of this session.

That is correct. Wanderers incarnated in several waves, as you may call them, in order to bring into existence the gradual freeing from the demands of the diurnal cycles and lack of freedom of leisure.

[/quote]

Ummm... actually the opposite. That Ra quote indicates that working so hard for money has actually been a hindrance to seeking. Ra indicates in that quote that if Tesla would have pioneered the idea of free energy, no one would have to work so hard to provide for the basic things (like the light bill, etcetera). They would have more free time to pursue the Law of One.
All we need is a Star Trek replicator to revolutionize society.
(03-30-2015, 03:05 PM)Lighthead Wrote: [ -> ]I believe that every form of cultural innovation is an evolution on top of the old system. Money was definitely one of those things. I think that it has served its purpose. But we're getting to the point where we can do better than money. That's why I think the LOO material is so useful. It shows us that we're on the cusp of that transformational moment. We should all get ready to see some big changes in society.

If you define "moment" as 20-25 years, then I agree with you perhaps.  We'll see big changes, but I would prepare for more difficult challenges ahead. We won't be seeing unicorns and rainbows in this shift.  There are simply too many people who take advantage of others out there to instantly move away from money.  

The lack of the need for money will be the final product of the shift - it won't start there..
(03-30-2015, 04:44 PM)Lighthead Wrote: [ -> ]Ummm... actually the opposite. That Ra quote indicates that working so hard for money has actually been a hindrance to seeking. Ra indicates in that quote that if Tesla would have pioneered the idea of free energy, no one would have to work so hard to provide for the basic things (like the light bill, etcetera). They would have more free time to pursue the Law of One.

Not working for money, but just the payment of money for energy. It is not payment in money per se what Ra means. But yes, I agree with the rest. Nevertheless, spiritual people do not usually understand that money is necessary in order to have so much time for seeking. Without money, there would be no such complex economy as we have today. Thus there would be not so much time for seeking. Also there is currently no institution which could replace it. Maybe society will evolve in a manner so that money is replaced by something else of which we do not know today. But what will replace money is not really predictable from the point of view of today.

Most people do not work for money but for the basic things for life. Money is just a medium of exchange which facilitates obtaining these things.

Our civilization is quite far developed and this standard of living could not be maintained if there would be no money. That is why there still would be money in 4D, but people would use it much more for service to others than today. Money is so crucial because it indicates entrepreneurs where they can serve other people best. Entrepreneurs make the highest profits in that parts of the economy where people pay the highest money prices. People pay the highest money prices for goods which they value most highly. Thus in shifting resources to parts of the economy where people value them most highly, entrepreneurs serve other people in the best way possible. Without money, entrepreneurs would not know in a complex exchange economy like ours where people value resources most highly. Thus they would not know what to produce, how much to produce etc. This is the reason why money is so important for society. We could not have the time for seeking we have now if there would be no money.
(03-31-2015, 06:01 PM)Poet Wrote: [ -> ]Not working for money, but just the payment of money for energy. It is not payment in money per se what Ra means. But yes, I agree with the rest. Nevertheless, spiritual people do not usually understand that money is necessary in order to have so much time for seeking. Without money, there would be no such complex economy as we have today. Thus there would be not so much time for seeking. Also there is currently no institution which could replace it. Maybe society will evolve in a manner so that money is replaced by something else which we do not know of right now. But as far as this day, this did not happen.

Most people do not work for money but for the basic things for life. Money is just a medium of exchange which facilitates obtaining these things.

Our civilization is quite far developed and this standard of living could not be maintained if there would be no money. That is why there still would be money in 4D, but people would use it much more for service to others than today. Money is so crucial because it indicates entrepreneurs where they can serve other people best. Entrepreneurs make the highest profits in that parts of the economy where people pay the highest money prices. People pay the highest money prices for goods which they value most highly. Thus in shifting resources to parts of the economy where people value them most highly, entrepreneurs serve other people in the best way possible. Without money, entrepreneurs would not know in a complex exchange economy like ours where people value resources most highly. Thus they would not know what to produce, how much to produce etc. That is the reason why money is so important for our society. We could not have the time for seeking we have now if there would be no money.

To be honest, I can't see that the concept of money would be used very much in 4D. I think that the use of money would be completely symbolic, at best. Especially when you take into account what Ra said about a social memory complex being telepathically united (as well as united in purpose). I see 4D as being lightly physical, and money seems to be a kind of hard reality here in 3D. The concept of you do this for me so I do this for you seems to imply that you do not perceive the other self as self. Entities in 4D are aware of the Law of One. Even those who are 3D harvestable to 4D (positive only?) are intellectually aware of the Law of One.
(03-31-2015, 06:17 PM)Lighthead Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, I can't see that the concept of money would be used very much in 4D. I think that the use of money would be completely symbolic, at best. Especially when you take into account what Ra said about a social memory complex being telepathically united (as well as united in purpose). I see 4D as being lightly physical, and money seems to be a kind of hard reality here in 3D. The concept of you do this for me so I do this for you seems to imply that you do not perceive the other self as self. Entities in 4D are aware of the Law of One. Even those who are 3D harvestable to 4D (positive only?) are intellectually aware of the Law of One.

Telepathically united means that people sense each others feelings. It does not mean that they have one mind and one will. There is still separation between them. If there would only be one mind/one will, money would not be necessary. If that is not the case, money is necessary.

Crucial is not whether money or something else is exchanged, but the intention behind an exchange. Just because one uses money does not mean that one perceives other people not as self. If this would be true, nobody on this planet would see the other self as self.
(03-31-2015, 06:26 PM)Poet Wrote: [ -> ]Telepathically united means that people sense each others feelings. It does not mean that they have one mind and one will. There is still separation between them. If there would only be one mind/one will, money would not be necessary. If that is not the case, money is necessary.

I mean, I don't think that anybody really knows until we fully get there, but from what Ra says, Ra seems to imply that there's only a light separation between self and other self (EDIT: In 4D!). That's why I said that those in 4D are aware of TLOO. You also have to realize that the non-existence of money seems like a possibility now, even. It's really those who are in power (that are benefiting from capitalism) that are not putting their full effort into making this take place. So it probably sounds weird to you because you're really used to money, but it's not that far-fetched an idea. A lot of social theorists (who incidentally have no knowledge of TLOO) have already made it a reality, on paper. It's just the details that need to be ironed out.

(03-31-2015, 06:26 PM)Poet Wrote: [ -> ]Crucial is not whether money or something else is exchanged, but the intention behind an exchange. Just because one uses money does not mean that one perceives other people not as self. If this would be true, nobody on this planet would see the other self as self.

The only problem that I have with this argument (I realize that I already said this) is that if you're telling someone I'm going to give you this so that you can give me that, or I'm going to do this for you so that you can do that for me (or give me that) implies that there's some sort of disconnect with the other person (an implied separation). And as far as what you said about those on this planet who see other self as self and using money, whether they have knowledge of TLOO or not, they have to work within the confines and rules of 3rd density. So whether they have the knowledge or not, it doesn't change the fact that they are still in 3rd density. We have to obey its rules and they have to obey its rules. And one of those rules is the concept of a social transaction. I'm talking about a hard social transaction like money. I think that it is possible that something like money is used in 4D, but trust me when I say that it would be highly unlikely that it would be something so extremely important as to be one of the defining characteristics of 4D. In 4D, it (money) could be comparable to something ritualistic, for example.

Those are just my thoughts.
i cannot see any endorsement of the concept of ownership in any other case in the book @_@ ^(>_<)>

as a female, i cannot endorse the patriarchy of money nor the idea of a patriarchal, chauvinist Ra

Quote:31.15 Questioner: Would the Orion group, then, be able, shall we say, to impress on entities this orange-ray effect, or did they… Is this the way that this came about, is what I’m trying to get at. Is this the way these concepts came about on this planet? Because if we go back to the beginning of third density, there must be a primal cause of this.

Ra: I am Ra. The cause of this is not Orion. It is the free choice of your peoples. This is somewhat difficult to explain. We shall attempt.

The sexual energy transfers and blockages are more a manifestation or example of that which is more fundamental than the other way about. Therefore, as your peoples became open to the concepts of bellicosity and the greed of ownership, these various distortions then began to filter down through the tree of mind into body complex expressions, the sexual expression being basic to that complex. Thus these sexual energy blockages, though Orion influenced and intensified, are basically the product of the beingness chosen freely by your peoples.

This will be the final question unless we may speak further upon this question to clarify, or answer any short queries before we close.

i encourage seeing these statements together:

Quote:22.5: ...the concept of ownership having won ascendancy over the concept of non-ownership on an individual or group basis...

...As each lesson was understood, those lessons of sharing, of giving, of receiving in free gratitude— each lesson could be rejected in practice...

...Without demonstrating the fruits of such learn/teaching the life span became greatly reduced, for the ways of honor/duty were not being accepted.
Personally, I tend to see money as just being another expression of energy, more or less. It's a common medium of exchange that allows us to *somewhat* abstract energy inputs vs energy outputs on very large scales. And since entropy IS a problem, at least on this plane, this is a highly useful feature. It allows us to work towards optimizing our energy usage, and makes it easier to find balance points where -in theory- everyone can live with at least some level of comfort.

Without money -or an equivalent energy-tracking system- such a proposition would be nearly impossible. A social security system of any real sort, for example, couldn't exist in a barter economy. The oversight and control of energy\money flow just isn't there. AFAIK, the best anyone ever managed before the 20th Century was the Roman bread-and-circuses system, which is hardly a better alternative.

That's, of course, the very "high level" way of looking at it. On a more practical level, I think it's important to remember that e-currencies are going to take off sooner or later. I'm not a Bitcoin cheerleader, but I think something LIKE it will eventually take root. Our economy is globalizing, and that's going to make a single standardized currency start looking really attractive to everyday people/businesses, even if governments aren't keen on the idea.

And once we have a global e-money system, that suddenly makes it possible to shift energy-as-money around on entirely bigger and better scales. That's the point that the entire world could -to spin a fantasy- crowdsource a spaceport if it really wanted. That's the point global social security nets start becoming a possibility. And those are the sorts of features I'd personally think a 4D+ society would want - wide-scale systems to ensure as many people as possible are at least seeing their basic needs met, and where people anywhere on the planet can theoretically collaborate on projects.

So, yeah, cash money was a useful tool just as gold money was useful in eras before that. But money is going to evolve, and very likely for the better, if things keep going as they are.
(04-01-2015, 12:34 PM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: [ -> ]Without money -or an equivalent energy-tracking system- such a proposition would be nearly impossible.  A social security system of any real sort, for example, couldn't exist in a barter economy.  The oversight and control of energy\money flow just isn't there.   AFAIK, the best anyone ever managed before the 20th Century was the Roman bread-and-circuses system, which is hardly a better alternative.  

I also don't think that this current money system could evolve into a barter system. I actually see the old barter system as the system that the monetary system was built on. That would be like going backwards. I see barter as being the equivalent to a proto-monetary system.


(04-01-2015, 12:34 PM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: [ -> ]That's, of course, the very "high level" way of looking at it.  On a more practical level, I think it's important to remember that e-currencies are going to take off sooner or later.  I'm not a Bitcoin cheerleader, but I think something LIKE it will eventually take root.  Our economy is globalizing, and that's going to make a single standardized currency start looking really attractive to everyday people/businesses, even if governments aren't keen on the idea.

And once we have a global e-money system, that suddenly makes it possible to shift energy-as-money around on entirely bigger and better scales.  That's the point that the entire world could -to spin a fantasy- crowdsource a spaceport if it really wanted.  That's the point global social security nets start becoming a possibility.   And those are the sorts of features I'd personally think a 4D+ society would want - wide-scale systems to ensure as many people as possible are at least seeing their basic needs met, and where people anywhere on the planet can theoretically collaborate on projects.

I also see bitcoin as being something important. But I see it as being something important in the short-run. I think that once we hit 4D we're going to go way beyond something like an e-currency. I actually see bitcoin as being important for more than one reason. I see bitcoin as being important because it is helping to provide the backbone for technologies and concepts that are decentralized (that don't have a hierarchy; where everything is considered equal). This goes beyond even currency. And when a society becomes decentralized, something like 4D positive becomes very possible. Note that I said 4D positive. A 4D negative social memory complex, according to Ra, is very hierarchical. So that is one thing that actually indicates that we are en route to a 4D positive world. The technology that helps bitcoin be decentralized is the innovation of the blockchain (a distributed, or decentralized, ledger).

There might've been something else I was going to write, but I can't remember (it was about bitcoin).