This is something that is kinda bugging me.
I figure, perhaps here is a good, loving, place to discuss this before I blurb it out upon all who know me.
After all the changes that have occurred within my self, I don't believe in Christianity anymore. That illusion has been sufficiently and quite permanently shattered for me. And not just christianity, but all religious doctrines and creeds.
I have a lot of people I know, many online, and family and friends, who are still bible thumping rock hard christians. Even my grandpa is a pastor of a small church organization in Maine.
I can't just live a lie, I can't just 'pretend' to be christian when I am around them, and I know their not going to react well to this when I tell them. I need to be true to who I am, but I don't want to go blasting them either.
Many are on facebook, and so I have thought of just posting it, flat out, then ride the wave and just surf it until the wave subsides.
Here is the text of what I was thinking:
Quote:To claim Jesus as "Lord and Savior" you would expect the world to turn it's back on you. Here is something interesting, and watch how fast the world turns its back on me, I renounce Christianity, and all religion all together. I no longer affiliate with any religious doctrine or creed. I am not, however, atheist. I believe there is a Creator, and I can and still have faith. And before you attack me, remember Matt 5:43-48. Love to all of you none the less.
But this feels kind of negative as well.
However, I feel I am trying to make the following point: I bring the attention of the reader to how the world treats those of the faith to those of the faith, so that when I introduce I am no longer of the faith, they have it in their minds before they launch the "your dammed and going to hell" lines. I point them to the verses about loving your enemies, and then I state my love for them none the less.
Perhaps it's my presumption of a confrontation. But it's not hard to presume that, then again, perhaps if I don't start the fight first, ....hmmm.
I could put it this way:
Quote:There is something I need to say, and there is no easy way to say it, but I need to. I renounce Christianity, and all religion all together. I no longer affiliate with any religious doctrine or creed. I am not, however, atheist. I believe there is a Creator, and I can and still have faith. Love to all of you none the less.
It gets my point across, but now there is no initial presumption of attack, even though I know there will be.
I could avoid the argument all together, which is what I have done up to this point, I have said nothing. One can make the argument also that is there really any need to say anything, why pick a fight? But is it really me picking the fight? What I say above in my second quote doesn't pick a fight, it only makes a statement. The fight comes because of the evangelical nature of Christianity.
Does this serve me, or others? Perhaps it quiets my own anticipation of the fight, and perhaps this is an Ego problem. The thinking of 'If I get it over with, I don't have to face it later on', and this can be self serving from a certain point of view.
I don't think the service to others aspect can be highly anticipated. For example, someone asking 'why' I decided to do this and thus, spark their own seeking.
My family doesn't know, my friends don't know, they think I am safe and sound being "saved". For me there is no strife or conflict, in fact, I have been at peace with this now. I am just anticipating the confrontation, and I know it will worry them to no end.
Again, however, I don't want to live a Lie. Hypocrisy abounds in this world enough as it is, and in some ways, finishes the equation for me, as professing your faith is a level of initiation into the faith, I feel a profession of my removing my self from the faith finishes my journey out of the illusion.
I know this is a matter of personal choice and opinion, but perhaps sharing these thoughts may spark something I have not thought of.
I think, in the Christian view, they will be quite devastated as you will no longer be 'saved' from eternal torture in hell etc. This might be very hard for them to accept. I'm sure they love and what the best for you. In time, they will hopefully understand that they do you no service by opposing who you wish to be. I encourage you to believe in yourself.. and remind them that it's what you want to do, and not what they want to do.
Don't take responsibility for how others react. Feel no shame or guilt. You have no idea what their path in life is, as little as we know our own path. Follow your heart.. and know that you are loved, whatever you do, by me and everyone else
Can you hold off in this for a day or two? I know what you want to say, and I think I may be of service in offering a diplomatic way of saying what you mean to say with minimal conflict, stress on your family and relatives, and yourself.
I will simply edit this post with what I would have you consider saying.
The reason I desire to be of help is that even though you have changed your perspective, you shouldn't have to lose all your family and friends. There may be those that do understand, and you, with your new knowledge and understanding, should seek to be the beacon of light which you are, being the being of light, the being of love, so that you do right to them.
Let us remember that indeed dogma and fanatic following with fear of deities may indeed be viewed as unpleasant when one has tasted the freedom of seeking, but remember that Christianity when diving deep you can uncover the truth about it's teachings.
Q’uo December 14, 1986
Quote:We find that in speaking about the subject of Jesus the Christ, we must be more careful than usual to guard against infringement upon free will, for this entity is centrally important to some of those present, and we wish our words not to be stumbling blocks nor to be paths into an unproductive wilderness but rather helpful disclosures for neutral information. There are some levels of understanding above that which you in third density enjoy which are necessary for the grasp of the full nature of Jesus the Christ, for you who seek this entity shall be in part a mystery to the conscious mind, not because there was an intention to be mysterious, but because the nature of Christ is mystery.
The entity known as Jehoshua, whom Greeks called Jesus, or rather, Jesu, was born closely upon the heels of midsummer, very few years before that year suggested by your histories, approximately five and one-half years. We believe this is the correct measurement. We are sorry, but your numbering does not make enough sense to us. We understand your moons, but not your numbers.
We cannot speak about what this instrument calls the virgin birth, and invoke the Law of Confusion, saying only that each new soul first awakened to its perception of itself as an eternal being has experienced the virgin birth.
The event was difficult and the birth was indeed humble, though brightened by an optical illusion, shall we say, a most unusual configuration within the heavens which caused there to appear to be for some of your months an unusually bright cluster of light in the night sky. The combination of the Christ with a serviceable life channel was powerful, and many psychic events occurred before and after the event as well as at the time of it. Astrologer kings did indeed journey following the star; however, the arrival was approximately a year and a half later. That indeed is a spiritual adventure you would do well to ponder as you approach your own stable looking for the newborn, guided by hope, the brightest star of your being.
The entity, Jesus, was loved and loved in return, but his mind drove him to be alone. For though too young to have established to his own satisfaction the nature of his being, he had tremendous hunger for wisdom. You would call this entity a child prodigy. The entity taught many, many more things than are written and could continue teaching for an eternity, yet what has been recorded is typical enough of the teaching’s content in general that we do not choose to take this opportunity to adjust the teachings that are recorded. It is not only that there is some infringement upon free will, although that is part of our caution. We also do not wish to sway those who have not become interested in the Christ to alter their viewpoints.
For above and apart from any writing about the Christ, there is the Christ and that which this teacher, channel and representative of the Creator called the Holy Spirit; call it what you will. There are many, many avenues in which the Christ speaks to each whenever the inner ear is opened and the ear harks, not listening passively, but leaning forward and truly harking.
The concept of the Christ was this: that intelligent infinity, as experienced by the Logos and with the bias of the Logos, would enter a third-density experience, not erasing the one known as Jesus’ personality or being, but coming into the closest possible harmony with that being. There needed to be one who wished to sacrifice an incarnation to the ever-increasing pleasure and agony of the Creator, experiencing what this instrument would call the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, for it is the nature of the Christ and the nature of third density that the two, perceiving each other, should react-the third density with a lack of understanding and the Christ with wonder, joy and sacrifice. Such is the sorrow of your illusion and the joy of sensation and communion.
In the end, Jesus the man became so able to bear both joy and agony that this entity stopped experiencing the Creator and for long periods of time became the Creator experiencing third density. Such is the perfect channeling of love. The achievement of the perfect channeling was the mystery of union between Creator and illusion.
After this bonding, the burden of channeling rather rapidly began to tire the master teacher, Jesus. At the time of the crucifixion, as this instrument calls it, there were almost no tears left. There were no bones unbroken, there was no companionship that had not been betrayed in one form or another. Nevertheless, Jesus the Christ lived well and did not stop the channeling until the breath left the physical vehicle. We witness to this Christ with thanksgiving and joy, not suggesting that any worship or not worship, but celebrating the Creator poured into a channel who could share in full the nature of the Logos, the nature of the Creator, the powerful, terrible, nature of Love.
You ask what Jesus the Christ would think of the way your people celebrate Christmas. My friends, Jesus is very pleased. He is pleased at all that is given and received of love, generosity and cheerfulness. This entity never confused the personal life that he lived with the Christ he channeled and in the end gave way to completely, but always knew the source and called it the Father. Call it what you will. We have no dogma or doctrine, but celebrate Love.
Yom Wednesday, January 24, 1962
Quote:In your religious books or your Bible, there is spoken something about a day of judgment, and some of your religions make a great issue of this. They believe that the dead shall come to life and everyone shall be judged—like you’ve been good, you go here, you’ve been bad, you go there. Well, my friends, there is truly coming a day of judgment, but it shall not occur in this manner; for no great Deity is going to sit upon a great throne and separate his sheep. But, each man will receive justice, according to his own thoughts; he shall bring upon himself his own judgment.
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This one explains the "Optical illusion" of the birth. It also explains the deliberate distortions of those who wanted to manipulate others when changing the teachings to fit their schemes, taking away from the original truths.
Oxal Tuesday, December 19, 1961
Quote:Greetings in the Light, my friends, I am Oxal.
As we observe Earth People preparing for the great celebration which is about to take place among your people, it never ceases to amaze us that this type of preparation and celebration should be given for such a Great Being, and then so promptly forgetting all that he stood for, the moment the celebration is over. This Being came to your planet with great sacrifice to himself, to bring to Earth Man some Truths that could free him from the bondage that he found himself in. Yet were his Truths so lightly taken and so often deliberately misinterpreted. Many times they were deliberately distorted by those who would hold control over their people. Yet, a few did benefit, and still do—those who have been willing to sacrifice enough of their time and energy to dig out the true meanings of the words that he spoke.
The story of His birth, as it is told in your religious histories, is not altogether accurate, but, as it was told by those who saw and understood not, it was told in expressions that were familiar to them. And yet, it would seem that people of today, who have advanced in science, who have greater knowledge of the universe, would attempt to find the Truth in these stories, but they do not. They go on, being told in the same words, in the same way. I am sure that any of you here on this night would agree with me, when I say that planets and stars do not move from their orbits and float gently along, leading people to their destinations—as it is known today by your astronomers, the solar systems move in great accuracy—these things are not possible. The Creator of these universes, these galaxies, created them to operate by Law and even they do not and cannot change these Laws.
Would I dare say to you, beloved friends, that the base from which this star came, was a much greater star and is today orbiting your planet far out in space, and the same Great Being is aboard it? It is not a star as you think of it, but a huge craft capable of travelling space wherever and whenever it is directed. The lights, or light that did the directing upon this night was a small craft remotely controlled, that was being directed from the larger craft.
Quade, I can totally relate to your dilemma. I've been there! Unfortunately, I don't know of an easy answer, but I will share with you my own experience.
I was raised Catholic, was a born-again Christian for awhile, then expanded my beliefs and now find truth in all religions but don't limit myself to any one of them, and personally consider the Bible to be of mixed polarity. This blew my mind when I realized it, while reading the Old Testament some 25 years ago. I felt that I had cleared my mind of some sort of centuries-old programming that had been based on fear and control. For the record, I have utmost reverence and respect for Jesus, as well as other spiritual avatars who have walked the Earth. And there is certainly a great deal of good in the Bible. But I no longer accept it as an authority, or any more 'from God' than any other religious text.
This didn't happen overnight, but over a transition of about 10 years, during which time I explored Christian mysticism and Bible-based metaphysical teachings, such as Cayce, Corrine Heline, Rudolf Steiner, Gnosticism, etc. So I still considered myself a Christian, though no longer a fundamentalist Christian.
During that time, I tried to find common ground with my Christian family and friends. I was open about the changes in my thinking, and thought they'd be ok with it, since I was still rooted in my Christian foundation. Even though I no longer considered the Bible an authority, I still felt it important to reconcile my new beliefs with Biblical teachings and principles. (I realize now that I still clung to some fear about totally rejecting the Bible, due to how effectively it had been hammered into my head that it was the 'word of God' so it made me feel better to find metaphysical understanding within its pages.)
Of course, my friends and family showed concern. No, that's not accurate. They freaked out, actually! It didn't matter in the least to them that I still believed in God. It didn't matter that Cayce, Steiner, and Heline were all Christians (though mystic Christians). No amount of reassurance helped. My Catholic family thought I was going to 'hell' for no longer being Catholic. My born-again Christian family members and friends thought the Catholics weren't really Christian, and we were ALL going to 'hell!'
I received long, impassioned letters from well-intentioned friends, begging me to give up my 'New Age' lifestyle ('lifestyle' being meditation, vegetarian, yoga, etc.). I was coerced into watching a video entitled The Dark Secrets of the New Age in which everything from acupuncture to vegetarianism was deemed 'satanic.' (Herbs for healing? Satanic. Yoga for relaxation? Satanic. Past life memories? Satanic. Chinese art depicting dragons? Satanic.) A midwife abandoned me 1 week before my baby's due date because I had a picture of a whimsical unicorn (complete with butterflies!) in my living room. I was called names like witch, satanic, deceived, destined for hell, and even the 'deceiver' himself both in person and on discussion forums, just for admitting I'd had past life memories, suggesting that Paganism might actually have some good points, or for daring to question whether there might actually be some bad stuff in the Bible along with the good and suggesting that maybe God intended for us to use discernment. I was accosted on the street by strangers for wearing crystal earrings, or for having a 'God without religion' bumpersticker.
Keep in mind I don't even dress like the stereotypical New Ager. Crystal earrings are about the most I do. I rarely wear pentacles in public. I don't have any anti-Christian bumperstickers, or a "My other car is a broom" bumpersticker. I don't look like I work in a New Age bookstore. I look pretty normal, actually. My bumperstickers are all about peace. But I learned the hard way that I had more conflicts when I tried to find common ground with the Christians, than my New Age and Pagan friends did when they expressed themselves openly.
I found this very curious. Apparently, the Christians I've encountered pretty much accept that the atheists, Pagans, New Agers etc. are all 'lost souls' so write them off quickly, but when confronted with an EX-Christian they feel they must save that lost sheep.
If anything, they seemed afraid of my Pagan friends, or at least that's how my Pagan friends interpreted their words and actions. The Christians sometimes told the Pagans that they were satanic, but seemed to back off quickly after they'd done their duty. But with me, they seemed to take me on as a project.
They couldn't grasp the idea that someone could actually understand Christianity and yet reject it. I kept trying and trying to convey that I did respect their choice, and was ok with God so why couldn't they respect mine? For awhile, I inadvertently took on a task to open their minds to the possibility that others might actually seek God in a different way. That's it. I wasn't trying to get them away from Christianity. I just wanted them to quit saying that everyone else was going to 'hell' because I find that a very dangerous mentality. It causes so much division in the world.
I tried sharing my own Christian experiences. I tried telling them about how I was on my knees in prayer, crying out with all my heart and soul, asking for guidance from God, and truly felt led by the Holy Spirit away from the Bible.
That didn't work. They told me my guidance was bogus and I was being deceived by the devil. I asked them why it was ok for them to trust THEIR guidance but I couldn't trust mine, and they said that God would never guide someone away from the Bible, since that was his 'word.' I asked: Weren't they putting the Bible in front of the living Spirit of God? Wasn't that idolatry? (I tried to use terminology that made sense to them.) Couldn't even the Bible itself be a false idol?
That didn't work either.
This was quite an eye-opener for me. Even though I was a Christian for 25 years, I don't remember ever having the degree of fear that seems to be so prevalent among so many people now. I do remember being uncomfortable with New Age people if they said Jesus was one of many masters or something like that, but it never entered my mind to tell them they were satanically misled or going to hell. So it never entered my mind that others would say that to me! Had I known then what I know now, I probably wouldn't have been as open about my beliefs. Each time I encountered such rigid, fear-based judgment, I was surprised and startled. I never quite got used to it.
I regret to say that, with only a few exceptions, my being open with my Christian friends, family, co-workers etc. didn't work. Now keep in mind that I rarely ever approached anyone with my beliefs. I just responded to them when they brought it up to me. I mean, it's not like I barged into their Bible study meetings or anything! These were just conversations that came up over the course of life. Since I am passionate about spirituality in general, whenever I hear someone mention God or anything spiritual, I might participate in the conversation. Then, invariably, they then ask me where I go to church. I answer honestly that I have a strong faith in God but no longer belong to any particular religion, and am comfortable in churches and temples of various religions, as long as there is a spirit of love and joy. So then, even a simple response like that will trigger concern and, in many cases, an agenda to bring me back into the fold.
Only occasionally do I encounter someone who is open-minded enough to ask me further questions about myself, instead of launching into proselytizing. I have a few dear Christian friends who honor and respect my beliefs, and some even ask me to pray for them! I treasure these friends. Among the Christians, I have found my Mormon friends to be the most respectful. Since they believe non-Mormons will have the chance to learn 'the truth' after death, they're cool with me not being a Mormon. (They are actually sympathetic, after having experienced discrimination firsthand.) And my Catholic friends and family generally don't give me near as much of a hard time as my born-again friends. The fear seems to be the most prevalent among those of the "I'm saved you're not" mentality.
So, over time, I have changed my approach considerably. I keep my mouth shut more often now than I used to. I now know that most of them truly do mean well, and many are terrified for their friends and loved ones burning in 'hell' for all eternity. That's why they try so hard to convert them. So instead of being annoyed by their zealousness, I try to have compassion for what it must feel like to face an eternity without one's non-Christian spouse or child. How awful that must be!
Now, I usually only volunteer my own views when either a.) they ask me directly (in which case I figure they can handle it, since they chose to ask me) or b.) if the person is really obnoxious and judgmental, like the preacher who showed up at a local college with the "all gays are going to hell" signs...in which case, yes indeed I speak up!
But in most cases, when I encounter a Christian friend who is obviously a good person and obviously their faith is important to them, I try to not rock the boat, because what good will come from it? Recently, several Christians, including 2 pastors, joined my business. One of them asked me about my beliefs before deciding to work together on the business, and I was very upfront about not identifying with the term 'Christian' but prefer to just say that I have a strong faith in God. Did I mention that I have found a channeled book from higher beings helpful in my spiritual journey? No, of course not! It would have only triggered fear and distrust. There was no reason to volunteer that information.
But neither did I lie. I fully expected this person to ask more questions about my specific beliefs, in which case I would have answered his questions at the level of detail in which they were asked. I knew that at any point I might say something he found offensive and I would lose the sale, but I prayed for guidance as I composed my responses.
To my surprise, he accepted my initial explanation of my faith without the Christian label, and didn't ask for any further details. This was an unusual case. In the past, I have found that many people like to nitpick details of beliefs, but this particular person seemed to recognize that faith in God was what was important, and didn't seem interested in specific beliefs, much to my relief! I believe he was praying too, and thus both of us got guidance to work together.
The other Christians, the pastors, are just beautiful people. We spent 2 hours talking about spiritual things, without my lack of Christian belief ever being an issue! True, I sidestepped many things that COULD HAVE been confrontational, but I found their joy and love so abundant that I just chose to focus on common ground, rather than point out petty differences of belief, which would have accomplished nothing.
At the end, one of them asked where I went to church. (The dreaded question!) I was honest and told her I wasn't a church-goer due to some bad experiences. Of course, she immediately invited me to her church, with the assurance that no one is judged there and there is no religious dogma. I politely thanked her, without making any commitment.
That pastor left thinking that I was a Christian. I didn't intentionally mislead her. She just made that assumption. She probably can't grasp that a Buddhist, Pagan or New Ager could find common ground with a Christian pastor and talk for 2 hours about faith and prayer. This pastor has written a book, and I read the reviews, so I happen to know that if she knew my beliefs, she would consider me 'satanic.'
Am I being deceptive by allowing her to think I am a Christian? Some of my non-Christian friends think so. They think I'm wimpy and deceptive for not being blunt about it. Some of these people have no qualms about telling a Christian, "What? You mean you still believe in the Bible? When are you going to wake up?"
I can't quite do that. That approach doesn't work for me. But neither can I quote Bible verses or pretend that the 'God' of the old testament was really God. Nor will I agree with them on the whole sacrifice thing. I won't go that far. But as long as they are talking about the teachings of Jesus concerning love and forgiveness, I will happily agree with them because I sincerely don't have any conflict with those teachings. It wouldn't matter to me if they were quoting the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, or a Pagan magickal ritual...if the teaching is about love, I'm cool with it.
I don't know if my approach is the best one or not. I have struggled with this issue for years. Part of me wants to just blast them out of their blindness and rigidity, but I have no right to do that. Part of me is concerned about the future of this planet, because of religious fundamentalism. Look at what's happening right now, in the US! And this is Christianity! These are the very same people who decry the extremists found in the Muslim community!
I have concluded that fanaticism of any flavor is rooted in not only fear, but terror. Those who are the most judgmental and narrow-minded seem to be terrified. New ideas threaten the protective wall they've built around themselves.
And yet, some are where you were at a few months or years ago. The seed of a new idea is beginning to sprout in their minds. For those, perhaps voicing your true thoughts might be very helpful! Over the years, I've had a number of people thank me for articulating what they were already beginning to realize. So how can I have any regrets for being who I am? We each have a role to play. You and I shouldn't have to hide who we really are. As long as we're sensitive and compassionate, I think good will come from whatever we choose to say at that particular nexus.
You're right, Quade. Even if your letter to them isn't confrontational in the least, they might consider it so, just because your beliefs are now different. How do we deal with those who cannot respect the differences of others?
I wish I knew the answers, but I don't. I would love to hear of others' experiences. Maybe my experiences were more intense because of where I live. Maybe I attracted them, though I can't fathom why. I chose that Christian midwife because she was a Christian! I never dreamed that my baby and I would almost die because of her fanaticism. So yes, clearly I attracted her, along with all the others I encountered over the years, because it was all catalyst for me.
Sorry this is soooooooo long, but I am sharing all this in the hopes that some of it might be useful to you. I don't have an easy answer, other than to trust your own guidance and speak from the heart, and not be attached to the outcome. I agree with ayadew in that you aren't responsible for their reactions. As long as you're acting out of love, they will get out of it whatever catalyst they need.
Good luck! I hope you have a more positive experience than I did.
Is it necessary to announce a separation between you and your loved ones though? You've done what your Christian friends and family have been trying to do. You've discovered the spiritual side of life. Its as if everyone is holding a sealed box in their arms and trying so hard to pry or work it open. You've opened this box. A Christian would say that you've opened the door to your heart and let the Holy Spirit come in. You've found that inside this box is a radiant light, the light that others are trying to see. Instead of turning away now, don't you think it would be a good idea to lean closer to your family and friends? Don't you think it would be a good idea to let them peer into the box that looks so similar to their own and see the radiant light inside?
They're still in the mindset where they'll interact with your ego as their own ego. They're identified with being Christians among other things, and identify you as a Christian in their heads. I know you want to speak now. Your feet are on the spiritual path and you want to shout at them and say "Hey! That's not the path, this is!" But in reality, they're on the path too. This may not be what you want to hear, but renouncing or separating yourself may contain an element of fear or control. It is possible to simply drop your old mindset without attempting to control the situation. In this course of action you'll find that the light within that box grows and radiates even more warmth. I know it's extremely difficult, but as you find ways to clearly share the light of spirituality through the mental filters of ego and Christianity that they've put up, you'll find your love for them and their love for you will grow immensely. They know you. They are familiar with this idea of you that they hold in their heads. Don't trash it in a rush of fear. Love the image and enhance it with the Truth told in a way that they can understand.
Good luck, my brother.
I agree with Peregrinus, hold this off a few days, think about it. And think about doing this diplomatically.
The problem is that what you're going to say will never arrive on the other side and be heard as you intended it to be heard. People will be hurt. People will be frightened for your soul probably. They don't get this Ra stuff. And many of them never will. No matter how inappropriate their response is. You will have to deal with it on the long term.
I am Sufi, ergo muslim, ergo the worst of the worst as religions go
At least to the most sensitive beliefs of my Christian family. However, even if religions cause pain they cause a lot of good things too. What we need to do is remove the pain and retain the good things. I would suggest you stop supporting Christianities negative sides, support it's good sides and empathize them. So people you love know you're not opposed to what they love. There's always some good things to point out.
When you speak about critical issues. For example they object to homosexuals speak from the heart, don't speak from the book or the truth. Speak in their words. When they say God (Christian paternity symbol) you hear God (Life's infinite source). It's what they mean anyway they just added fluff and sin around it. Be pragmatic. I would say, I have no problems with homosexuals, God created many different people for us to learn from and deal with. His son encouraged us to do this in the spirit of love. That's all there is to it for me. They may object in any way they like, but it's the emotional bottom line for you. Irrational and non negotiable.
Don't respond to clear attempts to argue this with you. Don't find reasons or excuses. Just be firm on the bottom line. You're not trying to convince them. You're just convinced yourself. It's a different thing.
If you go into defensive posture they will either assume it means they're right or that you're attacking their position.
Anyway, this has been my way of dealing with this. It's worked so far. I don't tell people who don't need to know of my choices. If they really cared enough they would ask. Those who ask I explain MY feelings. Without objecting to theirs.
I agree with being diplomatic and non-confrontational. I've had to deal with the obvious problems associated with letting my Christian beliefs go as well. The best way I've dealt with the situation is to only share my beliefs when they're asked of me. It's difficult since I live in a household of fundamentalists who continue to preach to me and invite me to their Bible studies and whatnot, but I've found that I feel most at peace when I don't try to infringe on others' free will even though they do it to me. I try to practice the golden rule
If you really do want to tell everyone, though, I would suggest you go with something more similar to the latter of your quotes, as being non-confrontational has worked best in my experience. I suspect it will work well for you too, better at least than leaving open the possibility of being interpreted as being hostile.
Best of luck!
dear quade
the only thing i could suggest to you is to be yourself. be who you truly are. some will be able to accept it many will not. if they cant then i would
say u wouldnt want to spend much time with them as u will constantly be
in conflict and who wants that. you have every right to believe whatever
you want to believe .
i personally have been going to the unitarian universalist church.
i find that they seem to have room for all belief systems. the truth is is that the only thing that really matters is how we treat others . the other day
i woke up and the thought was strongly impressed on me "peace be to
all beings, both those who love me and those who dont it doesnt matter."
if that is wrong in someway so be it it feels right to me. if someone cant
accept that about me then have a nice life we wont be spending much
time together.
remember u have every right to assert who u are, what will happen when u do this is you will find out who are the people that u want to spend time with and you might wind
up finding yourself in an entirely different crowd. if that is what happens so be it you wll be much happier
just being yourself and being true to yourself
norral
peace love and light
Whatever you will choose to do, it will be the right choice. I would like to offer my view on the subject though. The way that you are thinking of expressing yourself in could have the effect of putting distance between those you love and yourself, temporarily at least. In the long run, things will be just fine, and many of them will get it sooner or later, but for now it could have an unwanted effect. My advice would be to (as many have mentioned before me) to change into a more positive state of mind about all things in life, change problems into challenges. Spread love and respect the others. But stay on the same "level" as them, if you wish. Offer more positive views on what they believe in, without telling them too much about your own beliefs (this might make them fear what you have become and make you seem unreliable). Try to steer discussions in deeper and more positive directions while radiating love and understanding for their views. Talk to them one on one, you might "feel" when the discussion is going in the direction you wish. This is how, in my opinion, those who are "deeply asleep" (if you wish to use that term) learn in the most effective manner.
On the other hand i understand your situation, you would in a way want to show them that the old you is gone and that you have moved into a more positive state of being, or that your mindset is different compared to what it was. To put it on facebook, however elegantly written and with the purest of intentions, will spur some confusion though. It might be easier to "be the change you wish to see" instead of flat out telling them. I suppose that as wanderers we are here to help with the transition and the events to come, and the people that we spend time with the most are those that in time will need our love and reassurance that all will be well, and when that time comes it might not be beneficial to have put distance between ourselves and our other selves.
But do what you feel is right dear one!
Love & Light!
(04-10-2010, 08:21 PM)charlie2012 Wrote: [ -> ]The way that you are thinking of expressing yourself in could have the effect of putting distance between those you love and yourself, temporarily at least. In the long run, things will be just fine, and many of them will get it sooner or later, but for now it could have an unwanted effect. My advice would be to (as many have mentioned before me) to change into a more positive state of mind about all things in life, change problems into challenges. Spread love and respect the others. But stay on the same "level" as them, if you wish. Offer more positive views on what they believe in, without telling them too much about your own beliefs (this might make them fear what you have become and make you seem unreliable). Try to steer discussions in deeper and more positive directions while radiating love and understanding for their views. Talk to them one on one, you might "feel" when the discussion is going in the direction you wish. This is how, in my opinion, those who are "deeply asleep" (if you wish to use that term) learn in the most effective manner.
I think this is excellent advice! Having experienced firsthand the huge chasm that can result from others not understanding our spiritual paths because of their fear, I agree that avoiding that disconnect from your loved ones is preferable. The reason I shared my own experiences was that, no matter how nicely I put it, they just couldn't get past their fear of the changes in me. No matter how much I reassured them that I still believed in God, still prayed, etc. it didn't matter.
In my case, I wasn't close to my family to begin with, so not much was lost. And I have since become close friends with a few Christians who accept me for who I am. But they are the exceptions, and even they don't know the depth of my beliefs, because there has never been any reason to tell them. It would serve no purpose.
If you are blessed with a close, loving family, I would suggest keeping the love between you paramount. One of my brothers completely severed what little bit of a relationship we had, because I didn't agree with his political beliefs. I found that tragic! (He would bring up politics every time we talked. We reconnected after I called him back and pleaded with him to not let politics get in the way of family. But it hasn't been the same since. I insisted that we not talk about politics anymore since he is unable to respect another pov, since we get along great when we're not discussing politics!)
My advice is to remember that the Law of One supercedes doctrine. We can live the Law of One while honoring where others are at. You might ask yourself what purpose it will serve to make any sort of an announcement, and choose the path that is most likely to result in an expanding of love.
If I could do it all over again, I would opt to not announce my new beliefs to my family and friends, but let them know one-on-one as circumstances are offered. At the same time, I would be more upfront about who I am with new people I meet.
I would like to express my gratitude for all your kind responses. It is wonderful to know one can come to a place and know that they can express their heart and not fear being judged, this also serves as a lesson to me on how to respond.
I have a great respect for Jesus, though I don't believe he is divine anymore, but a great teacher. (divine in so much as God Incarnate as the Christian community sees him.) It is kind of interesting, I saw a program recently about the man, Jesus. They managed to even teach the person who was acting the part some aramaic and showed how he might have even spoke.
I find the Q document the most fascinating, as it appears to have been a document that might have been (if it existed) a collection of sayings by Jesus.
So I recognize the truth that was being taught, to love your neighbors as your self, and Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... And perhaps these two can help here.
I know how I was, once. What would I think?
.....
Ya know, I think this is an Ego problem, and a left over from being in that mindset. Being raised Pentecostal has a lot to do with it as well. They are very fundamentalist in nature, hard core belief in the Trinity, and the Bible, ignoring the verses that directly contradict their core belief. They are also very evangelical.
Perhaps this is why I feel this way, because I still carry that 'spread the word' programming, only now, because of how polarized their view is, and how far I have come from that view, it makes me want to turn around and say "Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand" lol, well, not quite that bad, but I think my reaction is a bit of a pole shift for me. So, now I want to react in the opposite direction. To 'spread the word' about the world I have discovered, moving from fear and terror to love and faith. But I also believe this may also be what has stayed my hand from the email blast I want to send, and why I came here first.
It is an ironic shift, and I guess there was a Poll Shift in my lifetime, I just didn't expect it to be me!
I think I am going to hold off for now, and have faith that who needs to hear this will, as the same as I was led to this truth, now I can present what I have learned to anyone who needs it in a loving manner.
Love and Light to you all, you are a great Joy to be with.
(04-10-2010, 08:44 PM)Quade Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps this is why I feel this way, because I still carry that 'spread the word' programming, only now, because of how polarized their view is, and how far I have come from that view, it makes me want to turn around and say "Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand" lol, well, not quite that bad, but I think my reaction is a bit of a pole shift for me. So, now I want to react in the opposite direction. To 'spread the word' about the world I have discovered, moving from fear and terror to love and faith.
Quade ! I think you nailed it... this is exactly what my thoughts were while reading your original post. Good for you that you have found your path... What I couldn't understand was the desire to announce to your immediate world knowing fully well that it will lead to confrontations and broken hearts !!!
Is there a practical consideration in this announcement other than 'spreading your own word'? You would not be living a lie if you were just following your own path but still mingling with your folks as a social thing. I am not a christian but keep a Christmas tree during the Christmas. Not because of the religious reasons but for the social and cultural reasons. Kids love it too. It does not diminish my path in any way...
I would encourage you to investigate the desire to 'spread the word' about your own truth now. Lead them by the example, If they see positive changes in you then they will come to you and ask for your secret...Good luck with whatever you choose to do
I have been thinking about how I have felt since I have realized the change in my life, I think I know now what has happened, and why, now, I had this feeling of talking about the change in my life.
I am going to split the hair mighty thin here....
The line is thus: I went from a world of trying to love christ, or to love Jesus, to a world of the Love of Christ, or the Love of Jesus. This may not seem different, but I think it is the most critical component change that has happened. The key wording here is 'the love of...'.
I think I was looking for that inner love, but couldn't find it because I was not able to see past the religious system. I had to dump that religious system in order to see clearly what it was I have been really looking for.
It was everyone here who has helped me see that, and for that, thank you.
As for telling everyone, the impetus behind it is just as Jesus spoke of, you have a light, you don't hide it under a basket, you put it out for all to see. I have not gotten used to the difference yet, and was wanting to share it, I was just not going about it the right way. But to this, I have already spoken.
My main point in this addendum, is what I had realized when I woke up last night. The difference in Loving Christ vs. the Love of Christ. Finding this has been what has changed the world around me. (which, if the world around you has changed, that likely means you have changed, as the world around you is a reflection of you.)
I realize now, I can't "give" this understanding to anyone. In fact, I could describe it until I am several shades of blue, and still they may not ever "get it". I can only show this in my life, and continue my own seeking.
I have notice something, I have had a few opportunities to tell a few about it. Two friends of mine I am always around, it has been interesting to see their reaction;
The first person, who has something of a distain for Christianity because his ex-wife drove him nuts with Religion has noticed a change in me, he has become more interested in it, and even asked what he might do to find it him self.
My answer to him that he has taken the first step in even asking. To seek it, ask for it for his own life, and listen for the answer, prayer and meditation. He may be genuinely interested in what I have found. I told him he doesn't NEED religion to find spiritual truth. I tried to keep my answer to him simple, I didn't want to push it on him, so I learned one level of restraint for someone beginning to seek here.
My other friend sits headlong in the world of christianity. I wouldn't call him a "Holy Roller", but there is no outward reflection of the Love of Christ. His Ego is the size of the Atlantic. Much of the time, when he talks about a Co-worker, he doesn't even call her by name, he says "The GS14 in our section" and begins to describe what he can do (as he is a GS12, two lower grades) what he knows and she doesn't. That's only one example, but he has the strong belief that Jesus is going to come back and whisk him away. Something he has said is that he is afraid of some of the "disasters", like the idea of not being able to die while being tormented by insects (or something like that). It has fear spelled out all over it.
This friend said he hasn't even noticed a change in me at all. Like it doesn't seem to register with him.
What struck me was the contrast between them. (I illustrate it not to berate one of them, I guard my impression I wish to give not to be egocentric) One who says he can't stand religion sees the difference, the one who is in the religion does not, almost to the point of questioning of what I found, and it had no influence on him at all.
The first, I can't give him all the answers, but I can be a sign post to help him on his own seeking, the second doesn't even wish to see, and there is no avenue to help him directly.
It has been indeed an enlightening experience, and to how misguided my original thought had indeed been misplaced, good intentions and all. And it is interesting the microcosm in their contrast that has helped be see both sides of the equation evenly. This has indeed been a lesson to me. Lessons are good things, they teach us, and we grow.
Dante, I had saved some of the responses I got from Christians. Here are some of them:
Quote:I am a Christian. That is to say that I follow the teachings of Christ. About a year ago, I had an Revelation in my life. It is a long story, but to make it short.
I became as I was, when I was a Child. I became that HOPING person again. I became happy with God once more. I fell in love all over again. I have not felt this good since I was four years old (I am now 46 year old).
At Five years old, the Catholic Nuns got their hands on me and hammered home the EVIL IDEOLOGY of HELL.
I am better now,....LOL!
I look at things in a totally different light.
I look at people differently now. I actually LOVE THEM. As opposed to when I became "Born again" (In 1987) and said I loved them.
And by the way. Don't you ever think that Born again believers are not afraid of going to Hell. I was as earnest as I could be, YET, I was in fear of Hell.
I thought to myself that: "Maybe I didn't have enough faith and that God would reject me".
So don't let them fool you. They are in fear for their loved ones, And themselves ALSO!
Peace and God's Love be with you.
I would love to hear much more of your ideas!
Quote:You actually made me think when you posted about hell. I too have now come to believe that maybe someway everyone will get saved and be in heaven. People who turn out evil, must have had some really bad things happen to them for them to turn out that way or they believe the lies that others tell about God or other people.
I so wish we would have peace. Peace between nations, people and groups. I guess you and I will need to spread the word and show love to all. Do you have any books that you would recommend that I read on spirituality or on God? E-mail me anytime.
love and hugs,
Quote:Thank you for your kind words. I have changed alot of my beliefs over the last year. Thanks in part to the discussion.
Here is what I said to E:
I think Abraham was delusional that God wanted Him to kill his son to start with. After all some people in this day and age have that delusion and have killed their children thinking that they were doing God's will. Those people are mentally ill. Abrham was mentally ill when he took his son up on the mountain, if indeed he did. It's just a story written down and we do not know for sure if it is a true story since we were not there. Some of the stories in the Bible I'm sure are myths. They were passed down from generation to generation and as in any telling of a story, things get changed as it passes from person to person.
And they say you can't pick and choose what scriptures you want to believe. Well that is exactly what I do. If it sounds crazy, evil, mean, unthinking, stupid, or not advisable, I disreguard that scripture. I actually THINK about what is being said. I don't care if it is from a supposedly HOLY book or not, if it's evil I reject it. That is why God gave us a brain, to think and not blindly follow someone just because they claim to be the "voice" of God.
Let us love one another and encourage one another. Let God be the judge of our hearts and minds.
As you encounter people like this, who might secretly be fearful about their religion and might welcome hearing about your own changes in your spirituality, then speaking up might be a blessing for them. I think the key is in discerning when to answer the call of those who might be seeking, and when to remain silent in respect to those who are comfortable with their path.
Rather than making a bold announcement which could come on too strong and generate fear among your friends and family, it might be helpful to just put out little feelers and see if you get nibbles, and be alert to questions which might indicate an openness to your new ideas. As these letters show, there may be those in your circle of friends and loved ones who might appreciate hearing your ideas, but the task is to be sensitive to where they're at.
(04-12-2010, 10:06 AM)Quade Wrote: [ -> ]One who says he can't stand religion sees the difference, the one who is in the religion does not, almost to the point of questioning of what I found, and it had no influence on him at all.
Oh wow, we just cross-posted, and your post really nails what I was attempting to convey!
(04-12-2010, 10:06 AM)Quade Wrote: [ -> ]I went from a world of trying to love christ, or to love Jesus, to a world of the Love of Christ, or the Love of Jesus.
PROFOUND!!
(04-12-2010, 10:06 AM)Quade Wrote: [ -> ]The line is thus: I went from a world of trying to love christ, or to love Jesus, to a world of the Love of Christ, or the Love of Jesus. This may not seem different, but I think it is the most critical component change that has happened. The key wording here is 'the love of...'.
Ow hell yeah that's a huge difference.
Quote:I think I was looking for that inner love, but couldn't find it because I was not able to see past the religious system. I had to dump that religious system in order to see clearly what it was I have been really looking for.
Very true... Hold it close to your heart. Gods love is a fact. Gods desire for us to follow some "true" religion is not. I also had to drop the religion at some point. My belief in God is anchored in my core. And I very much realize that's just my way of seeing things. Not everyone personifies the thing like I do. But religion had to go.
Hate homosexuals, be fearful of strangers. Ignore information that does not agree with the holy book. Your heart is dirty, it's worthlessssssssshhh.. (Snake hiss added)
And it's not just Christianity. Islam, Hinduism, even Buddhism has members singing the exact same devils song...
Quote:As for telling everyone, the impetus behind it is just as Jesus spoke of, you have a light, you don't hide it under a basket, you put it out for all to see. I have not gotten used to the difference yet, and was wanting to share it, I was just not going about it the right way. But to this, I have already spoken.
I think the way to show the light is without words. In deeds and actions. Speak with the heart, not with the mind. You can look at someone and radiate them with love. It's a subtle force but extremely powerful in the long run. If people see the path a few times at some point they no longer need guidance they know how to find it themselves.
Quote:I realize now, I can't "give" this understanding to anyone. In fact, I could describe it until I am several shades of blue, and still they may not ever "get it". I can only show this in my life, and continue my own seeking.
Be glad you found it. Some people will understand. When their time comes and your spirit is pure they will see you and just accept that it's the truth. No questions asked, no compliments given. Just someone else who finds the inspiration to stop forcing himself to love God and seek Gods love instead.
Quote:The first person, who has something of a distain for Christianity because his ex-wife drove him nuts with Religion has noticed a change in me, he has become more interested in it, and even asked what he might do to find it him self.
Quote:My answer to him that he has taken the first step in even asking. To seek it, ask for it for his own life, and listen for the answer, prayer and meditation.
"Ask for it for his own life", all that's needed.
Prayer and meditation are spiritual tools, but not required.
Quote: He may be genuinely interested in what I have found. I told him he doesn't NEED religion to find spiritual truth. I tried to keep my answer to him simple, I didn't want to push it on him, so I learned one level of restraint for someone beginning to seek here.
You're saintifying :-)
My teacher told me that God accepts counterfeit coins. It's true. It doesn't matter that I'm imperfect. When I gave something that remotely resembled true love, I received back true love. He's no fool, he knows it's counterfeit. It doesn't matter because he also knows that it's addictive, once I was on the love drug it'll just grows. And I wanted to give the real thing. I wanted to stop being phony. That's how it felt.
Quote:This friend said he hasn't even noticed a change in me at all. Like it doesn't seem to register with him.
It's a secret change.
Your friend does not desire to see it at this point. He should be free to love and fear as he pleases. You cannot explain to him how this works. He may see it in you. But most likely he will end up considering you "just lucky"... You'll get comments like "you don't have any problems." "Things just work out for you."
Quote:It has been indeed an enlightening experience, and to how misguided my original thought had indeed been misplaced, good intentions and all. And it is interesting the microcosm in their contrast that has helped be see both sides of the equation evenly. This has indeed been a lesson to me. Lessons are good things, they teach us, and we grow.
Amen brother
I am in awe of your realizations...
May I ask why you feel the need to proclaim this change in thinking to your family and friends? You said that you were sick of pretending to be something that you are not, which I understand, but who said you have to pretend? My suggestion to you is to be yourself, and let things fall as they may. I see no need to proclaim these changes, as it seems like it will just upset people. If you act as yourself, then your family will gradually see your true self and no proclamation is needed.
Of course, this is just my own opinion. I am a non confrontational person, so take that into account.
I too, was a Christian once. I have since moved on, however most of my extended family does not know this. In my opinion there really is no need for them to know, especially my aging grandmother. You see, I remember once as a little boy learning that one of my cousins was an atheist, and coming from my Christian view point it made me very, very sad to imagine him going to hell some day. So I just don't mention it. If I have to, I will white lie about it.
Yes, it is unfortunate that because of the fear religions have woven we cannot be open about our beliefs at all times. But this is acceptable, I feel, when thinking about the alternative.
If you feel a sincere need to discuss these things with your family and friends, then you must obviously do what you feel you need to. But I would consider it carefully. Who will be aided by this, who will not be aided? Is the aid gained more than the aid not gained? In other words, is your desire to announce your new understandings of God more important than the emotional trauma others will feel at hearing it? I leave this to your discernment.
Lastly, after having said all of this, rest assured that whatever results come of your choice, whichever way you choose, is exactly what needs to happen. So if you are indecisive at the end of your meditations, do not fret overly long.
love and light to you my friend!
Hi Quade, I too have felt the urge to announce my separation from Christianity to my friends and family. When my wife and I started dating ten years ago my career plan involved going into the ministry in one of the most separatist/dogmatic churches around. Obviously, now I look back and wonder what I was thinking? I have come to the conclusion that it was to bring my wife (who is probably my primary soul mate) together. I believe it also was a part of my incarnational lessons to not be manipulated.
My point is that every experience is valid and as much as I want my friends to wake up and realize what's happening, their souls have chosen for their own reason to go through the experience of dogmatic Christianity. They'll wake up when they need to and when they do they might be sent my way for a little light.
You have to be sensitive when turning on the light! I'm learning that with my wife who is still adjusting to my transition in faith. When I see my friends from our old church I just smile and share that all is well and express how much we still love them. Most of the time it never goes beyond that. Most Christians today are wrapped up in mainstream politics anyway.
Best of luck my friend.
I have learned a lot, from many of you and from my experiences from my friends.
What I finally decided to do is update my signature line on my email.
Now, when I send an email, it has at the bottom:
Quote:"Faith is not faith in anything. Faith is the trust, without any proof or supporting evidence, that all is well and that all will be well." -Q'uo
"I went from a world of trying to love christ, or to love Jesus, to a world of the Love of Christ, or the Love of Jesus." -Quade
It is vague enough not to start a fight, but interesting enough to maybe spark a conversation if someone is paying attention. It leaves me an opening as Quade is obviously not the name I am actually known as. (as most are on this group)
Basically, if I sense they are going to go all bananas on me, I can side step it as just an interesting quote, and leave it there, if I sense they are legitimately interested, I can go deeper into it.
I will let faith and synchronicity take care of the rest.
Love to you all.
Hello Quade,
WOW, thank you for your expression with words
I too struggled with this, then came the realization, that THEY are ONE and yes they are you within One....does your head in for a while.........just a labels/titles
Love it, Live it........One it........Thank you again for sharing
Love Everything xxx