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So I've been pondering this ever since the whole Bruce Jenner fiasco and I've come to a couple theories as to why someone would have such catalytic thoughts. This isn't about whether it's right or wrong since we hopefully can accept that the decision was his on the matter and hopefully can be respected. 

With that said,  there are a couple ways I keep going in my mind. 

First is from a psychological/biological standpoint. Biologically speaking,  it goes against all natural laws of evolution to mutilate the body so that it can't reproduce. For all intents and purposes on a 2D level,  animals exist to proliferate. Now psychologically speaking,  to have feelings of being trapped in a different body than the Mind recognizes speaks of a serious internal crisis. Whether due to some underlying emotional trauma where one thinks a fresh start would be the answer or maybe that they were somehow influenced to consider themselves something they are not,  it's a very deep seated psychological issue that I'm confused about. Bruce Jenner for instance,  sometimes referred to himself in third person and also realized that there was still a Bruce and Caitlyn which almost speaks of multiple personalities. So I really wonder how mentally stable he is. 

The next way I'm going is spiritually. With more and more people coming out to such,  I wonder whether it's because it's more socially acceptable or that the veil is thinning so much,  people are getting previous lives crosswired into their current incarnation. I know from destiny and journey of Souls,  the homosexual orientation can be explained by being the opposite sex in a previous life that they were having onto yet didn't realize it so I wonder if transgender is the same. 

I wonder how well people with gender identity confusion could benefit from a regression session to find the cause because from a biological standpoint,  there's no logical reason for such mutilation so it has to reside within the mind. I also wonder if maybe someone set this up preincarnationally to experience being discriminated against or some intense lesson in acceptance. 

In any case,  it's a seriously intense thing to think about as its such a drastic catalyst for someone to be so confused that they resort to such acts. To me,  it sounds as if they are trying to fix internal issues with external corrections but I definitely entertain the notion that internally,  there is something there that we just cannot fathom on a spiritual level. 

What say you dear friends?
I think this is a two-fold lesson in acceptance. Transgender people are a growing part of our society and as such we need to learn to understand what they are going through and accept them for who they are. At the same time these people are coming to accept the identity that they experience internally, usually for their whole lives, and attempting to express it honestly.

Many people have a hard time understanding what a transgender person is going through. I can see that in your insistence in using the male pronouns and Jenner's per-transition name. This is something that transgender people face often, a refusal of others to accept the course they have chosen in life. This can be mild in the form of dismissal or assumptions about the person's mental health, or can evoke anger or even violence against the individual based on who they are.

For the most part I think these people are practicing a form of self-honesty. As  Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality said, "People say things like, 'You're pretending to be a man,' or, 'You're pretending to be a woman,' What they don't understand is I was actually pretending before."

As for the spiritual aspect, I think this is representative of a dissolving of barriers. The hard drawn dualities we are used to are not so clearly defined anymore. Transgender people are representing a melding or transformation of our rigidly gendered society, showing that lines can be bent or crossed and that the limits to identity are becoming more elastic. There may be some past life influence involved here, but one's identity in this life is it's own creature, past-life influence or no this is a fully formed identity.

So basically, while I'm not really a fan of Caitlyn Jenner to have such a high profile individual to publicly undergo this transition and open it up to discussion by the public is a wonderful catalyst and one that I hope will lead people towards more acceptance.

Just my 2 cents.
Fully formed identity that goes against the vehicle provided which is where my confusion resides. I guess the 2d animal that houses our spirit is providing even that much more service by allowing one to change its external components. But in the end, biologically speaking, they are still their previous gender. When someone comes to the hospital, we don't note their new gender at all because medically and biologically they are still what they are internally just externally transformed. This is why I wonder if those that do this are 100% satisfied by the external transition.
This situation is interesting because she identifies as a woman, yet still wants to date women and is not interested in men. It very much seems to be a spiritual thing, and I think what Spaced said about living honestly might have something to do with it.

I just see her as choosing to identify with feminine aspects, which I can relate to. I'm a guy but if I had to pick, I would actually say I identify more with femininity. Generally speaking..I just really like being around women, and I like the lighthearted openness of women. I was lucky enough to grow up with relatives where the men, even with their masculine presence, were also kind and gentle beings and the femininity came through. This was taught by example, learned and passed down.

But I think the larger issue perhaps doesn't have to do with identity, rather these parts of ourselves are repressed on a larger scale socially. So the fact that gentleness and lightheartedness is associated with women underlines the fact that we're not in touch with both sides of ourselves. In different parts of the world this doesn't necessarily seem to be the case.

Masculinity isn't a bad thing..I see it as relating to self-confidence..strength in radiating who you are. As children we seem to have this natural confidence which can quickly fade away. What seems to happen is that when there is a lack of accepting feminine nurturing energy, people become overly masculine as a defense. And so all the aggressive males in the world just weren't loved enough in the past. But truthfully we're all just a bunch of softies! Sorry I sort of veered off topic in a way.

Splash

(06-15-2015, 09:01 AM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]So I've been pondering this ever since the whole Bruce Jenner fiasco and I've come to a couple theories as to why someone would have such catalytic thoughts. This isn't about whether it's right or wrong since we hopefully can accept that the decision was his on the matter and hopefully can be respected. 

With that said,  there are a couple ways I keep going in my mind. 

First is from a psychological/biological standpoint. Biologically speaking,  it goes against all natural laws of evolution to mutilate the body so that it can't reproduce.  For all intents and purposes on a 2D level,  animals exist to proliferate. Now psychologically speaking,  to have feelings of being trapped in a different body than the Mind recognizes speaks of a serious internal crisis. Whether due to some underlying emotional trauma where one thinks a fresh start would be the answer or maybe that they were somehow influenced to consider themselves something they are not,  it's a very deep seated psychological issue that I'm confused about. Bruce Jenner for instance,  sometimes referred to himself in third person and also realized that there was still a Bruce and Caitlyn which almost speaks of multiple personalities. So I really wonder how mentally stable he is. 

The next way I'm going is spiritually. With more and more people coming out to such,  I wonder whether it's because it's more socially acceptable or that the veil is thinning so much,  people are getting previous lives crosswired into their current incarnation. I know from destiny and journey of Souls,  the homosexual orientation can be explained by being the opposite sex in a previous life that they were having onto yet didn't realize it so I wonder if transgender is the same. 

I wonder how well people with gender identity confusion could benefit from a regression session to find the cause because from a biological standpoint,  there's no logical reason for such mutilation so it has to reside within the mind. I also wonder if maybe someone set this up preincarnationally to experience being discriminated against or some intense lesson in acceptance. 

In any case,  it's a seriously intense thing to think about as its such a drastic catalyst for someone to be so confused that they resort to such acts. To me,  it sounds as if they are trying to fix internal issues with external corrections but I definitely entertain the notion that internally,  there is something there that we just cannot fathom on a spiritual level. 

What say you dear friends?

Firstly, many years ago, I lived in a share-house with a women who became Australia's first female to male transgender person (in terms of the first to make the transition medically/cosmetically/legally.)

Nevertheless I have no authority to speak to this issue. I am not transgender.

Just as I can not speak for others lives/experiences (ie: as a middle class caucasion woman I can't speak to the life experience for a working class aboriginal man; I can't speak for Caitlyn . And Caitlyn can only speak for her own unique experience of transgender. My friend who transitioned to male can't speak for another female to male... let alone male to female.. it's really best we read the thoughts and ideas of the people themselves.

I do think it's okay to have a generalised (private) stream of thoughts about the possible reasons for a trans incarnation set-up... but a whole bunch of non trans here talking it through... I'm not comfortable with that... just as I wouldn't be comfortable with discussing black issues here with primarily non black people... (etc)

I recommend you do as much reading as possible on this and can provide you with many useful sources to help your understanding' if you like Smile

NB:

Gender reassignment is NOT a "mutilation".. particularly not for the person who feels completely physically wrong with their original body/gender.

Using the term "fiasco" is judgemental.

Insinuating that Jenner may have mental instability ("So I really wonder how mentally stable he is.") and that being said as a pejorative, is disrespectful both for trans people and for people with actual mental health issues.

Referring to a person who has now asked to be considered and spoken of as "she" and called by their new (female) name.. but still using "he" and the old male name.. is considered disrespectful and insensitive.

As to coming to "a couple of theories"... as I said: it's better to ask transgender people - even better to read up on the whole area listening to their perspectives and theories.. than to formulate your own ideas separate from the people experiencing this and/or asking (presumably) a forum of non trans people for our thoughts...
When I mention fiasco,  I meant the whole publicity of it. Not the situation itself.

You reek of insecurities so sorry if I offended your brittle being.  

Caitlyn herself referred to herself as Bruce and Caitlyn so right there is a clue as to something deeper. He hasn't even fully accepted it yet.

Yet there are countless examples of therapy helping many people with gender identity crisis???

I'm trying to find spiritual theories to understanding the mechanism and reason. Asking someone who is neither awake nor aware of potential reasons of past life integration of genders is kinda like asking a 5 year old how to do calculus. Which is why I was asking for help understanding it from a theoretical viewpoint from like minded people.
Do you all see a difference between Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and Rachel Dolezal? Is it equally "OK" for a man to become a woman and for a white person to become black?
Like I said originally is not about it being ok or not. I have no issue with one who chooses to go through this. I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level
(06-15-2015, 12:08 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]Like I said originally is not about it being ok or not. I have no issue with one who chooses to go through this. I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level

To test acceptance of self and other-selves in self and other-selves.

Our real nature is formless, there are no rules.
(06-15-2015, 12:11 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-15-2015, 12:08 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]Like I said originally is not about it being ok or not. I have no issue with one who chooses to go through this. I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level

To test acceptance of self and other-selves in self and other-selves.

Our real nature is formless, there are no rules.

So maybe their purpose was to further catalyze other selves into new forms of acceptance in an intense form of service to others? I like that  BigSmile
(06-15-2015, 12:16 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-15-2015, 12:11 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-15-2015, 12:08 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]Like I said originally is not about it being ok or not. I have no issue with one who chooses to go through this. I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level

To test acceptance of self and other-selves in self and other-selves.

Our real nature is formless, there are no rules.

So maybe their purpose was to further catalyze other selves into new forms of acceptance in an intense form of service to others? I like that  BigSmile

Just as they are exploring feeling ressented themselves.

This planet is a weird experiment.
(06-15-2015, 12:08 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]Like I said originally is not about it being ok or not. I have no issue with one who chooses to go through this. I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level

Fair enough.  Are there different reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level in the two cases?
(06-15-2015, 12:08 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level

In the past I've asked these same questions, but I'm not sure there is what we could call an answer. It just is.

Since the mind is collective, I think it could just symbolically represent energies that are transforming..boundaries that are dissolving. Consider the idea of a social memory complex..where we all share the same mind with things being very transparent. I'd say that you can't merge with the other or inhabit the same vessel unless there is an identification or recognition of all its parts within the self.

So to suggest that there is something wrong with a transgendered person (I know that's not what you're saying..isn't directed towards you), or that their signals are mixed, sort of misses the point since all is one. I just don't think there is an answer!
Sorry if I offended anyone with my wording. I'm definitely not judgemental or even entertaining this journey as something negative. I'm actually fascinated with it on a spiritual, scientific, and psychological standpoint. To do something so drastic because of something on the inside fascinates me for some reason
I wasn't reacting to any of your wording..they were just general statements..no worries! Saying to "suggest that there is something wrong" was a bad choice of words on my part, because I know that's not what you're implying..my bad! It is fascinating and makes you wonder.
(06-15-2015, 12:34 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-15-2015, 12:08 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]Like I said originally is not about it being ok or not. I have no issue with one who chooses to go through this. I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level

Fair enough.  Are there different reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level in the two cases?


Had to look that lady up as I didn't know who she was. That's a good question as I'm not entirely sure if they are the same or not. I didn't read too much but was she pretending to be another race or she actually is? 


I get that we are all One but we are still individual portions of the Creator to experience itself. Therefore we all planned our incarnations. So if we planned our incarnations,  what is the reason for such a harsh planning. That's where I'm trying to get at in all of this. There's too much emotion involved with this it seems. Get back to logic for a second if possible. Not directed at you Tobey  just in general. I liked the part that I said about it being almost martyr like when it comes to being of such intense service that one would program this type of confusion not only to find acceptance within but to provide intense catalyst for other selves also. 

Splash

(06-15-2015, 12:00 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]When I mention fiasco,  I meant the whole publicity of it. Not the situation itself.

You reek of insecurities so sorry if I offended your brittle being.  

Caitlyn herself referred to herself as Bruce and Caitlyn so right there is a clue as to something deeper. He hasn't even fully accepted it yet.

Yet there are countless examples of therapy helping many people with gender identity crisis???

I'm trying to find spiritual theories to understanding the mechanism and reason. Asking someone who is neither awake nor aware of potential reasons of past life integration of genders is kinda like asking a 5 year old how to do calculus. Which is why I was asking for help understanding it from a theoretical viewpoint from like minded people.

right... you don't like being shown where/when you're being insensitive

so you reply in a snide passive/aggressive way

I won't take your bait and respond in kind - instead - if you speak disrespectfully to me again, I will report it as a breach of forum rules

nb:

why do you assume there are no transgender people with a spiritual/metaphysical understanding?

why do you assume anyone on Bring4th has this specific spiritual knowledge?

- someone will confront you about this aspect of your character one day (arrogance/assuming the 'right' to discuss/understand marginalised peoples lives without seeking their input) - and their interaction with you won't be as polite as my well intentioned feedback...)
(06-15-2015, 01:01 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-15-2015, 12:34 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-15-2015, 12:08 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]Like I said originally is not about it being ok or not. I have no issue with one who chooses to go through this. I'm looking specifically for the reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level

Fair enough.  Are there different reasons and mechanisms on a spiritual level in the two cases?

Had to look that lady up as I didn't know who she was. That's a good question as I'm not entirely sure if they are the same or not. I didn't read too much but was she pretending to be another race or she actually is?

I get that we are all One but we are still individual portions of the Creator to experience itself. Therefore we all planned our incarnations. So if we planned our incarnations,  what is the reason for such a harsh planning. That's where I'm trying to get at in all of this. There's too much emotion involved with this it seems. Get back to logic for a second if possible. Not directed at you Tobey  just in general. I liked the part that I said about it being almost martyr like when it comes to being of such intense service that one would program this type of confusion not only to find acceptance within but to provide intense catalyst for other selves also.

She was born white but has been presenting herself as black, so much so that she is the president of her city's NAACP.

I agree, lots of emotion swirling around the topic(s)!
(06-15-2015, 01:06 PM)Splash Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-15-2015, 12:00 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]When I mention fiasco,  I meant the whole publicity of it. Not the situation itself.

You reek of insecurities so sorry if I offended your brittle being.  

Caitlyn herself referred to herself as Bruce and Caitlyn so right there is a clue as to something deeper. He hasn't even fully accepted it yet.

Yet there are countless examples of therapy helping many people with gender identity crisis???

I'm trying to find spiritual theories to understanding the mechanism and reason. Asking someone who is neither awake nor aware of potential reasons of past life integration of genders is kinda like asking a 5 year old how to do calculus. Which is why I was asking for help understanding it from a theoretical viewpoint from like minded people.

right... you don't like being shown where/when you're being insensitive

so you reply in a snide passive/aggressive way

I won't take your bait and respond in kind - instead - if you speak disrespectfully to me again, I will report it as a breach of forum rules

nb:

why do you assume there are no transgender people with a spiritual/metaphysical understanding?

why do you assume anyone on Bring4th has this specific spiritual knowledge?

- someone will confront you about this aspect of your character one day (arrogance/assuming the 'right' to discuss/understand marginalised peoples lives without seeking their input) - and their interaction with you won't be as polite as my well intentioned feedback...)

LOL I couldn't care less if someone was rude to me or not because I'm secure enough in my own body to not worry about trivial notions like insecurity. I'm short and commonly get mistaken for another race and it bothers me not. 

Considering I don't know of anyone who is transgender,  my first place to ask such a spiritual question is here. I'm not sure why you're so sensitive to my logical questions. You are so full of emotions for some reason,  your logical faculties see to be blocked and seeing the questions that I'm asking are for general understanding of a severe form of catalyst. 
I do not think that questioning the biological, cultural, emotional and spiritual factors that contribute to gender and sexual identity is at all insensitive. I think it is interpreted that way by those who are insecure because to those individuals, implying that one's state of identification isn't completely arbitrary implies a rejection of their being. 

While I may take some heat for this, I don't believe that those who identify as transgender, homosexual, etc. are the way they are "just because." There's plenty of evidence that things like brain chemistry, environment, parental influence and cultural stereotypes do effect how one perceives themselves in regards to gender and sexuality. The changes in all of these things over the years could certainly play a role in creating offshoots from that which, from an evolutionary, procreative perspective is most efficient. Take the same person and raise them in two completely different environments, and you may get two completely different sets of identification. Alter their hormone production and the way they feel about themselves may change entirely. I experienced this to a small degree myself when I took pills that lowered my estrogen production, which caused a dramatic change in the way I behaved.

There is also the spiritual factor. Incarnating as one sex over and over and then suddenly incarnating as the opposite sex can have very confusing effects on a person's subconscious. In stressful situations they may tend to "revert to type" or the preferred gender. I believe that those aware enough to make their own choices when entering the incarnation choose their race, gender, etc. for a reason, and to reject the state one purposefully chose for themselves is basically a coping mechanism suggesting one doesn't want to face the challenges they set out for themselves.

I personally feel that I have been male much more than female, and chose a female incarnation in an attempt to process a lot of emotional constipation I've effectively ignored through several lives. While I've never experienced a full dis-identification with my gender, I do tend to act in a very masculine way when I get nervous or when I am confronted with a strong emotional stimulus. In times of great stress I have even felt the desire to cross dress and "feel manly", or wished I was a man. I've often thought "It would be so much easier to just be a man." or "I should have been a man!"

I've also considered that, at this particular point in time, some people may willingly choose to come in with these particular distortions to act as a certain type of catalyst. Because "being gay" or "being transgender" tends to have specific, set meanings to certain groups of people, incarnating with a gay or transgender bias would be a way of addressing the thought paradigms involved.

I'm sure a lot of people would look at what I just said and immediately jump to the conclusion that I think all those outside the sexual norm are substandard and/or they should be "fixed." This is absolutely not the case. It is not my place at all to judge how another person expresses their lessons, and my opinion of what is and is not "healthy spiritual development" is entirely subjective. Regardless of what I think has caused this movement toward gender-fluidity, it is an opportunity to show compassion and open-mindedness toward a group of people who are being challenged and persecuted- to accept them as fellow beings of the Creator. I honestly don't give two ducks about what gender a person wants to date, or what gender they'd like to be seen as, and I would never try to make them into someone they don't want to be.

I feel that in many cases the imbalance lies on both sides of the issue, and that those who identify with some alternative form of gender or sexuality can be just as judgmental, self-righteous, defensive and persecutory as those who don't. Because I am heterosexual and cisgender, using my logic to try to understand another state of being makes me some sort of bigoted monster, and asking questions makes me insensitive? Yeah, that is just childish. There is a huge difference between someone denouncing a lifestyle, and someone who lacks political correctness in their questions simply because they are ignorant. Compassion, patience and acceptance is needed toward those who are seeking to understand as well.

Understanding the factors that contribute to one's state of being is beneficial, regardless of whether one uses that understanding to change themselves, or simply to accept themselves the way they are with a more informed perspective. It is also a good opportunity to evaluate the way we perceive gender and sexuality as a cultural whole, and how that definition may be changing as the planet changes. 
If I were to express some of the thoughts and feeling I have on such issues as this one I would no doubt be labelled a bigoted monster as Yera described.  It is a great source of insecurity and shame for me and I am having a tough time navigating thoughts and emotions that would be labelled by society as wrong, unethical, racist, sexist etc.  Seeing someone slammed for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand something and gain greater clarity really gets my blood boiling, but once again I fully admit that this is an internal issue more than anything.  I'm probably being hypocritical and narrow minded in one way or another and for that I apologize.  This is a great source of catalyst for me, just as I imagine it is for many others.   
it's to anchor divine feminine and bring balance. look at how they describe more advanced ETs. they're androgynous.
i don't relate to either gender and i'm equally attracted to sexes. honestly i think most people have an imbalance because they're monogendered and monosexual.
I'm glad there are those that can understand my intent on these questions. If I worded them in an insensitive way, I'm not too sure what to say other than I'm sorry but I'm not sure if it's my issue or theirs. My intuition keeps driving me towards a greater meaning of such a drastic catalyst than simply because people have always felt a certain way. If something mysterious on the inside is defying all biologically internal and external evidence to the contrary, it points to one of two solutions. Its psychological or its spiritual because there's nothing left on the inside that would determine such a conflict.

That is where my fascination resides. The logic mind that I've been bound to for so long prior to this awakening would have tended to lean towards some deep seated emotional trauma as the cause but the spiritualist in me now believes it's a cross incarnational breakthrough. These other selves could very well be capable of advanced levels of magic within themselves due to the potential thinning of the veil in front of their eyes. Or they simply could be so dependent upon their prior incarnations, they are seeking to find the comfort they had always had within another gender. I truly don't know so the questions arose.
(06-16-2015, 02:46 AM)Yera Wrote: [ -> ]I do not think that questioning the biological, cultural, emotional and spiritual factors that contribute to gender and sexual identity is at all insensitive. I think it is interpreted that way by those who are insecure because to those individuals, implying that one's state of identification isn't completely arbitrary implies a rejection of their being. 

Alter their hormone production and the way they feel about themselves may change entirely. I experienced this to a small degree myself when I took pills that lowered my estrogen production, which caused a dramatic change in the way I behaved.

i'm bisexual but - & sorry if this is TMI - i feel more attracted to women when i'm, uh, near my period. also in my later years i feel more attracted to ladies.

however romantic attraction is a separate issue. that, i believe, is a soul thing. my romantic attraction to men has always been a constant unwavering thing, but physically/sexually i fluctuate with both sexes.
(06-16-2015, 07:04 AM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]That is where my fascination resides. The logic mind that I've been bound to for so long prior to this awakening would have tended to lean towards some deep seated emotional trauma as the cause but the spiritualist in me now believes it's a cross incarnational breakthrough. These other selves could very well be capable of advanced levels of magic within themselves due to the potential thinning of the veil in front of their eyes. Or they simply could be so dependent upon their prior incarnations,  they are seeking to find the comfort they had always had within another gender. I truly don't know so the questions arose.



i think it's a bit of both. i think the spiritual side is that earth desperately needs more divine feminine. we're trying to break the oppression of the imbalance of the divine masculine that there's too much of. bringing in femininity through men grounds it here and transforms us, it's amazing to see. i think it's beautiful but it threatens the ones clinging to the masculine holdover.

the loud support of Caitlyn was really surprising to me and very hope giving.

Splash

(06-16-2015, 05:23 AM)Folk-love Wrote: [ -> ]If I were to express some of the thoughts and feeling I have on such issues as this one I would no doubt be labelled a bigoted monster as Yera described.  It is a great source of insecurity and shame for me and I am having a tough time navigating thoughts and emotions that would be labelled by society as wrong, unethical, racist, sexist etc.  Seeing someone slammed for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand something and gain greater clarity really gets my blood boiling, but once again I fully admit that this is an internal issue more than anything.  I'm probably being hypocritical and narrow minded in one way or another and for that I apologize.  This is a great source of catalyst for me, just as I imagine it is for many others.   

I haven't "slammed someone for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand..."

As politely as possible I explained to a person (for eg): that for them to say "fiasco" "mutilation" "mental instability"...

"is considered disrespectful and insensitive"

if I can't give that feedback here I may as well leave.

Instead of a polite reply - I was told I "reeked" of "insecurity" and was sarcastically told "so sorry I offended your brittle being"

I offered to share links to help Jeremy, which he chose to ignore and continued to ask his questions to non trans members about trans peoples spirituality.... and to be rude/dismissive to me... yet he's getting the backing of other members here?

Dodgy  :exclamation:

http://www.glaad.org/transgender/allies

an excellent and helpful article:

(for example):

"Listen to transgender people.
The best way to be an ally is to listen with an open mind to transgender people themselves. Talk to transgender people in your community. Check out books, films, YouTube channels, and transgender blogs to find out more about transgender lives.

Know your own limits as an ally.
Don't be afraid to admit when you don't know something. It is better to admit you don't know something than to make assumptions or say something that may be incorrect or hurtful. Then seek out the appropriate resources that will help you learn more.
(Updated May 2015 / Adapted from MIT's "Action Tips for Allies of Trans People.")"


and another equally helpful document for learning:

http://community.pflag.org/document.doc?id=904


and from: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/how-...ns-friend/

"But it also means stepping out of the spotlight and allowing trans people to lead and tell their own stories.

You should amplify the voices of trans people – sharing their work, inviting them to conferences and universities, getting them involved wherever possible – rather than speaking over them.

There’s always more work to be done. And if you’re looking to support your friend who is trans, it’s time to make this world a better place for all trans people.

6. Learn to Take Criticism and Know How to Apologize

Even if you follow every bit of advice in this article, you will still make mistakes. And I want to remind you that making mistakes is okay, as long as you’re willing to receive criticism and apologize sincerely.

Remember that regardless of your intention, your impact is still important. You may not have meant to spill coffee on my shirt, but I imagine that if you did, you would still apologize and you would still try to help me clean things up. Because, you know, I’m assuming you’re a nice person.

You may mix up your friend’s pronouns by accident. You may say something insensitive, only to realize this later on. Even I, as a trans person, make mistakes with other trans people from time to time. We’re all learning. Every single one of us!

Just recently, a thoughtful friend and fellow Everyday Feminism writer, Adrian, explained to me that a word I was using was actually extremely harmful to trans women. Instead of getting all prickly and defensive about it, I had to remind myself that this was a great opportunity to do some growing and avoid hurting others in the future.

Even I make mistakes! What’s most important is to learn from those mistakes.

So how do you apologize?

When you misgender someone, it’s best to offer a quick apology, a correction, and let the conversation move forward. Nothing is more awkward than a person spending five minutes apologizing for misgendering you and completely redirecting the conversation. I shouldn’t feel like I have to console or comfort you after you’ve made a mistake, right?

When there’s a bigger hiccup – maybe you’ve said something offensive without realizing it – it’s good to know how to give a sincere apology. There’s an amazing video that breaks this down that is basically required viewing for anyone who aspires to be a decent human.

As the brilliant Franchesca Ramsey says in her video, “A real genuine apology is made up of two parts: the first part is you take responsibility for what you’ve done, and then the second part is you make a commitment to change the behavior.”

If you’ve said something that is hurtful to your friend, an apology can be the difference between a rift in your relationship and an opportunity for growth. Never underestimate the power of a sincere apology."

(Sam Dylan Finch a Contributing Writer for Everyday Feminism. He is queer writer, activist, and educator)



(yet again disappointed/stressed/saddened by interactions on Bring4th Sad )

Splash

Splash

(06-15-2015, 12:04 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: [ -> ]Do you all see a difference between Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and Rachel Dolezal?  Is it equally "OK" for a man to become a woman and for a white person to become black?

Here is a commentary on this topic from black trans woman Kat Blaque :

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/rach...ansracial/

(NB: if you don't want to watch the video - here is the transcript of what she says):


"I cannot go anywhere online without hearing about the mess, that is, Rachel Dolezal. Rachel Dolezal is a white woman, who’s been living as a black woman, for the past decade. Currently, she’s the president of the NAACP in Spokane, Washington. That’s right, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

This is Rachel as a child. This is Rachel as an adult. According to her birth parents, she started to disguise herself in 2006, when the Dolezals adopted four black children. Rachel, and one her adopted black brothers, were reportedly estranged from their parents and placed into a multi-cultural group home that celebrated black culture. From there, she started to identify herself as, at least, partially African-American, and started stated such on job applications.

She became an adjunct professor for African-American studies, at the Eastern Washington University, where she taught several classes, including one entitled, The Black Woman’s Struggle. She has done countless work for the black community in Spokane, including being part of a police oversight committee, as a representative of the black community.

She is currently under investigation for allegedly faking a hate crime, where she received a racist package. Her parents, Ruthanne and Larry Dolezal, have recently decided to out her as a white woman, stating that, they’re not sure why she felt the need to misrepresent herself. She’s received mixed reviews in the media, but Breitbart.com, has hailed her as a “transracial” hero.

It’s worth noting that the term trans racial, is being misused in this conversation. Trans racial is actually a term used to describe adoptions, where the parents are of a different race than the children that they adopt. For example, the Dolezals’ four black children, are trans racial adoptees, because their parents are white.

Recently, you couldn’t go anywhere without hearing about Caitlyn Jenner, who had recently revealed her body, and her new look, as a transgender woman. There are a lot of people conflating Caitlyn’s story with Rachel’s story. They’re saying that, if Caitlyn can transition into a woman, then why can’t Rachel transition into a black woman. As a black woman, who happens to be trans, I felt that I could help demystify the confusion, and tell you why Rachel’s story and Caitlyn’s story are not at all, the same.

A popular defense of Rachel Dolezal is that, race is a social construct, in the same way that gender is a social construct. So why is her story any different from Caitlyn’s? Race and gender are absolutely social constructs. The difference is that, gender is not a biological trait passed from parent to child, whereas race is. Evolution was regional, and there’s a reason why my skin is dark, and my ancestors come from the hot regions of Africa. Darker skin means more melanin. More melanin means more sun protection. That was necessary for groups of people, who historically are from areas where the sun is the hottest. That is evolutionary trait, passed from parent to child.

Gender, of course, is not passed from parent to child. Gender is a social construct, that usually pertains to, and differentiates between, masculinity and femininity. Gender does not hold the same biological basis that race does. Say that race is a social construct, and therefore, it’s okay for her to be transracial, is just kind of silly. A traffic light is a social construct, but you’re going to be in quite the pickle if you decide to run a red light into oncoming traffic.

Something else occurred to me. If I turned to you tomorrow and said I was white, would you believe me? See, this idea of transitioning into a race, is something that’s only available to certain people. Rachel Dolezal, got a tan and a perm. And apparently was able to fool people for about a decade. Now, I realize that to many ignorant cis people, there’s no difference between that, and me wearing a little bit of makeup. The difference is, that, while my gender has changed, my race will always remain the same. She can go home and wash off her self tanner, and wash out her perm. I can’t wash off my gender, and that’s something that isn’t defined by my makeup.

People draw this comparison between Rachel and Caitlyn, because they believe, that trans people are, at the end of the day, deceptive. To be honest, this accusation really doesn’t surprise me, because a lot of people seem to think, that trans people transition to fool the people around them. Rachel Dolezal is woman of Swiss, German, Czech, and Native American ancestry. She lied about who she is, and she’s continuing to lie about who she is.

As a trans woman, I don’t like being compared to someone who’s a liar. I am not being dishonest by being who I am today. Who I am today, is the most truthful incarnation of myself. Transitioning took honesty. Transitioning took accepting myself for who I was, and not continuing to be somebody that I wasn’t. I am living my truth. Rachel, is living a lie. See, transition comes with no benefits. My transition has thrown me off of the course of what I wanted to do with my life. I’ve had to give up so many dreams, to simply be myself. I could be so much further in my career, had I decided to not transition.

Trans people are still fighting to use the restroom. There are so many things that we have to fight against, to simply exist in a trans-phobic society. Rachel Dolezal, is a white woman who just one day decided she was going to be black, because she had an affinity for black culture. I never decided to be a trans woman. That’s simply a statement of the reality of my life. Being able to decide that one day you’re just going to be black, just reeks privilege to me. Presenting herself as a black woman, came with benefits. Especially because, she was perceived, as a black woman with light skin. She was paid money, to teach classes and give speeches about what a black woman’s experience is in American.

Part of being a black woman in this world, is coping with anti-blackness, and the self hate that comes from living in a euro centric society. Many black women, have to go through a journey of self acceptance and love, because they’re taught from day one, that their natural features are not beautiful. That, is part of the black female experience in this society. It’s an experience that Rachel Dolezal will only know from an academic standpoint. As a black woman, these are things that I’ve had to deal with. I’ll be honest and say that I feel some type of way when I see a white woman, who is living in this country, that has a history of racism, who is very aware of that history of racism, feel entitled to positions that have been carved out for black women, as a white woman.

The sad part is that, her voice is cherished above others in her community. What’s sadder to me, is most of the people who stand in support of her, are black people. The NAACP has, unsurprisingly, stood behind her in support. The NAACP, is an association that was started by white people. She actually, might have had an easier time, if she’d just kept it real. I agree that Rachel Dolezal has done a lot of things for the black community. But, she could have done so, as a white woman. There is absolutely no parallel, between Caitlyn’s story, and Rachel’s story.

One, is a story about deception, where even when faced with the truth, the person in question boldly denies it. The other, is a story about coming to terms with the truth, and being able to love and embrace yourself enough, to live honestly, and be honest with the people around you. Whether you agree or disagree with trans people’s lives, being able to come forward and state that this is who you are, is a statement of honesty, and it takes a lot of guts.

This is not a world built for trans people. While the same can be said for black men and women, for Rachel Dolezal, it was a choice. Trans people do not choose to be transgender. Honestly, there’s so much to this story, and the deeper you dig, the stranger it gets. I think a lot of people are asking why she did it. I tend to believe that it must have had something to do with the relationship between her and her family. There are a lot of missing pieces here. I’m hesitant to be hyper critical of her, and I’m really side-eyeing her parents. What do you guys think about the whole Rachel Dolezal situation? Let me know in the comment box below. As per usual, always remember, and never forget, that you, are beautiful, and you are loved. Bye."


TOTAL SHARES 11.4K

Kat Blaque is a Contributing Vlogger for Everyday Feminism. She’s also a children’s illustrator and thrift store shopper.
obviously Rachel has had lives as a black person and still strongly identifies with that. i identify with another race myself. live&let live.
(06-16-2015, 08:38 AM)Splash Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-16-2015, 05:23 AM)Folk-love Wrote: [ -> ]If I were to express some of the thoughts and feeling I have on such issues as this one I would no doubt be labelled a bigoted monster as Yera described.  It is a great source of insecurity and shame for me and I am having a tough time navigating thoughts and emotions that would be labelled by society as wrong, unethical, racist, sexist etc.  Seeing someone slammed for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand something and gain greater clarity really gets my blood boiling, but once again I fully admit that this is an internal issue more than anything.  I'm probably being hypocritical and narrow minded in one way or another and for that I apologize.  This is a great source of catalyst for me, just as I imagine it is for many others.   

I haven't "slammed someone for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand..."

As politely as possible I explained to a person (for eg): that for them to say "fiasco" "mutilation" "mental instability"...

"is considered disrespectful and insensitive"

if I can't give that feedback here I may as well leave.

Instead of a polite reply - I was told I "reeked" of "insecurity" and was sarcastically told "so sorry I offended your brittle being"

I offered to share links to help Jeremy, which he chose to ignore and continued to ask his questions to non trans members about trans peoples spirituality.... and to be rude/dismissive to me... yet he's getting the backing of other members here?

Dodgy  :exclamation:

http://www.glaad.org/transgender/allies

an excellent and helpful article:

(for example):

"Listen to transgender people.
The best way to be an ally is to listen with an open mind to transgender people themselves. Talk to transgender people in your community. Check out books, films, YouTube channels, and transgender blogs to find out more about transgender lives.

Know your own limits as an ally.
Don't be afraid to admit when you don't know something. It is better to admit you don't know something than to make assumptions or say something that may be incorrect or hurtful. Then seek out the appropriate resources that will help you learn more.
(Updated May 2015 / Adapted from MIT's "Action Tips for Allies of Trans People.")"


and another equally helpful document for learning:

http://community.pflag.org/document.doc?id=904


and from: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/how-...ns-friend/

"But it also means stepping out of the spotlight and allowing trans people to lead and tell their own stories.

You should amplify the voices of trans people – sharing their work, inviting them to conferences and universities, getting them involved wherever possible – rather than speaking over them.

There’s always more work to be done. And if you’re looking to support your friend who is trans, it’s time to make this world a better place for all trans people.

6. Learn to Take Criticism and Know How to Apologize

Even if you follow every bit of advice in this article, you will still make mistakes. And I want to remind you that making mistakes is okay, as long as you’re willing to receive criticism and apologize sincerely.

Remember that regardless of your intention, your impact is still important. You may not have meant to spill coffee on my shirt, but I imagine that if you did, you would still apologize and you would still try to help me clean things up. Because, you know, I’m assuming you’re a nice person.

You may mix up your friend’s pronouns by accident. You may say something insensitive, only to realize this later on. Even I, as a trans person, make mistakes with other trans people from time to time. We’re all learning. Every single one of us!

Just recently, a thoughtful friend and fellow Everyday Feminism writer, Adrian, explained to me that a word I was using was actually extremely harmful to trans women. Instead of getting all prickly and defensive about it, I had to remind myself that this was a great opportunity to do some growing and avoid hurting others in the future.

Even I make mistakes! What’s most important is to learn from those mistakes.

So how do you apologize?

When you misgender someone, it’s best to offer a quick apology, a correction, and let the conversation move forward. Nothing is more awkward than a person spending five minutes apologizing for misgendering you and completely redirecting the conversation. I shouldn’t feel like I have to console or comfort you after you’ve made a mistake, right?

When there’s a bigger hiccup – maybe you’ve said something offensive without realizing it – it’s good to know how to give a sincere apology. There’s an amazing video that breaks this down that is basically required viewing for anyone who aspires to be a decent human.

As the brilliant Franchesca Ramsey says in her video, “A real genuine apology is made up of two parts: the first part is you take responsibility for what you’ve done, and then the second part is you make a commitment to change the behavior.”

If you’ve said something that is hurtful to your friend, an apology can be the difference between a rift in your relationship and an opportunity for growth. Never underestimate the power of a sincere apology."

(Sam Dylan Finch a Contributing Writer for Everyday Feminism. He is queer writer, activist, and educator)



(yet again disappointed/stressed/saddened by interactions on Bring4th Sad )

Splash

Uh no,  looking back I don't see any links that I ignored. I snapped back at you because you automatically came off as defensive and snippy and accusatory because my remarks could be construed at demeaning. I'm of the honesty camp over compassion camp. If you have an issue with my remarks however disrespectful they may be,  that's your issue to come to terms with. If words have such meaning to you that you will be offended and actually upset,  that's your issue not mine. Actually this is more about honesty than compassion. Its not compassion as much as coddling fragile mentalities. If I came off as insensitive,  there's a better way to go about it. Instead you decide to scold me like a child which I  will respond in an equally abrasive and honest manner because however mean it may feel,  there's honesty and love in my intentions. They just don't contain coddling that many lovey doveys wanna pretend that compassion is. 

What I'm getting at with my words however harsh they may be is attempting to allow you to realize that they are just words. Their intended effects is purely based upon your emotional reaction to them. Without your reaction, the words are no different than any other word. This is where mental and physical security and confidence in one's whole self resides. By being insulted and upset at these words, to me, means that one hasn't fully accepted ones self because if they were, such words would have no impact.
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