Bring4th

Isn't the pursuit to escape ones human-animal nature just a lack of acceptance of the self?

It just seems me that nature invested in humans so I am still greatly confused by the philosophy that the activities of humans are fundamentally 'unnatural'. Sounds like a species self esteem issue.

@ Farseer:

I don't keep pets. Nor do I condone zoos, or even nature shows where the animal world is invaded by film crews and tourists. 

I have no self-esteem issues. 

You ask a good question about what constitutes natural human behavior. I was thinking about that as I composed the previous post. Natural behavior for humans seems to be all over the map, indicating that there is a great imbalance. I am not a proponent of going back to some time in the past as the way to live naturally. I do think humanity needs to evolve greater understanding in order to be in balance with all things. I do realize this is an ongoing process through densities, yet look at us. I would say the pendulum is swinging widely out of balance, and it's time to consider what is best for all, not just indulge human whim.

Okay but that is so vague. You say we have imbalances, yet have no measure of what constitutes balance?

It seems like this whole thing comes back to an assessment of human greed. That's the finger that's being pointed, toward greediness. Is greediness unnatural?

We have four cats that live with us and we have a very bonded relationship, a house full of love. I am very hard-pressed to consider our little family 'unnatural'. If I was to use 'living in the wilds' as a basis for something being natural then on that alone humans stopped being 'natural' a long time ago. However, I don't believe nature actually keeps track of zones within itself, thinking "oh this area is wild and that area is civilized", to nature everything is just one continuous field.

This is why it bothers me when people try to use "nature" or "what is natural" to justify their own person opinions, because frankly you have no idea what nature 'thinks'.

Also, you say "human behaviour is all over the map, suggesting an imbalance", is that because balance has to be behaviour consistent across a species? Is balance incapable of being diverse?

(07-16-2015, 02:10 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Okay but that is so vague. You say we have imbalances, yet have no measure of what constitutes balance?

It seems like this whole thing comes back to an assessment of human greed. That's the finger that's being pointed, toward greediness. Is greediness unnatural?

We have four cats that live with us and we have a very bonded relationship, a house full of love. I am very hard-pressed to consider our little family 'unnatural'. If I was to use 'living in the wilds' as a basis for something being natural then on that alone humans stopped being 'natural' a long time ago. However, I don't believe nature actually keeps track of zones within itself, thinking "oh this area is wild and that area is civilized", to nature everything is just one continuous field.

This is why it bothers me when people try to use "nature" or "what is natural" to justify their own person opinions, because frankly you have no idea what nature 'thinks'.

I wasn't judging anyone who keeps pets. And I was trying to indicate that what is natural is evolving. The pet relationship is part of that evolution. I have had cats and totally loved them, and became a more compassionate and tolerant person because of them. I just came to a point where it was too difficult to make decisions on their behalf. For instance, what to feed them. My last cat died of kidney failure. I could not figure out what I could have done to optimize his health better. He was free to go outdoors and hunt and he did hunt for some of his food, which I knew was his best source of nutrition. After he died (and I had to put him to sleep when he could no longer walk), I had to really analyze what I wanted to do concerning my thoughts on animals and their natural environments. It was a personal decision and not meant as a standard for anyone else.

Zoos however, are another story. And humans invading natural environments to make nature shows. And controlled burns in forests where animals are burned to death, injured, or displaced because humans are imagining there might be a fire (almost always caused by humans) that might reach there homes. Meh.

By natural, I suppose I mean a general equilibrium with the environment and all living things. That does not have to be living like a caveman. It could be that we as humans take the environment and the life—not just human wants—in that environment into compassionate consideration when building or growing food or mining, etc. 

(07-16-2015, 02:12 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Also, you say "human behaviour is all over the map, suggesting an imbalance", is that because balance has to be behaviour consistent across a species? Is balance incapable of being diverse?

I would not want everyone to be the same. I do like diversity. But personally I would like to live in a society that wasn't so extremely self-centered and asleep that we have starvation and suffering and so little respect for other life forms.

Diversity can still exist without it being unconscious. In fact, I imagine that true diversity will emerge when we as humans start to really understand ourselves, to know ourselves apart from the media, the cultural pressures, the childhood wounds and roles. When an individual can find his or her core self underneath all the programming, then, I imagine, he or she would flourish as a truly unique expression.

Don't you think that will take a big step towards recognizing that humans and their activities are NOT separate from nature? That this nature vs humans is a human idea? I am sure you are aware of this, but I address this specifically because I think so often we talk about "human activity" as though it isn't also 'nature's activity', but I really think it is.

Rather than addressing in an us vs them kind of way I am trying to view it as a unified system. If we are part of the Earth and nature's activity, and the environment also is, why is it that these seem to be antagonistic to eachother? Why is it that Earth's structure has bred this apparent self-destructiveness within itself? I am afraid that pointing the finger at humans and their greed has never been a satisfying answer for me because I wonder, what inspires humans towards greed?

I, honestly, believe that one of the greatest issues humans have is this self-esteem issue. I know you say you don't have any self-esteem issues, but I'm not talking about on an individual level, I'm talking about as a species. If you look at the philosophies of the world, the world is divided between hatred for humans and love for humans. I think this is a severe cognitive dissonance in the planetary mind which is largely involved in this conflict between humans and ecosystem. Quite simply, humans are like stem-cells that haven't chosen their role. Unable to choose our roles, we become cancerous and floating, not fitting in, but not truly being separate either.

I think this is why 'choice' is so emphasized in modern philosophies. However, the challenge always comes up against the notion of 'the right choice'. Without any guidelines for right choices that are universally accepted, humans make choices that oppose eachother and identity struggles further to establish itself.

Let me ask you, why do you think it is that so many people seem to be able to 'shrug off' the notion of compassion? Why do you think humans have such an easy time justifying things in their favour?

(07-16-2015, 02:38 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 02:12 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Also, you say "human behaviour is all over the map, suggesting an imbalance", is that because balance has to be behaviour consistent across a species? Is balance incapable of being diverse?

I would not want everyone to be the same. I do like diversity. But personally I would like to live in a society that wasn't so extremely self-centered and asleep that we have starvation and suffering and so little respect for other life forms.

Diversity can still exist without it being unconscious. In fact, I imagine that true diversity will emerge when we as humans start to really understand ourselves, to know ourselves apart from the media, the cultural pressures, the childhood wounds and roles. When an individual can find his or her core self underneath all the programming, then, I imagine, he or she would flourish as a truly unique expression.

You don't think our current state is a step towards finding the core self? Is this another one of those expressions that humans are more than their bodies? Even supposing that is true, the discovery still appears to be happening through bodies. (Although "extremely self-center and asleep" seems like a comparison of yourself to others.)

(07-16-2015, 02:41 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 02:38 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 02:12 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Also, you say "human behaviour is all over the map, suggesting an imbalance", is that because balance has to be behaviour consistent across a species? Is balance incapable of being diverse?

I would not want everyone to be the same. I do like diversity. But personally I would like to live in a society that wasn't so extremely self-centered and asleep that we have starvation and suffering and so little respect for other life forms.

Diversity can still exist without it being unconscious. In fact, I imagine that true diversity will emerge when we as humans start to really understand ourselves, to know ourselves apart from the media, the cultural pressures, the childhood wounds and roles. When an individual can find his or her core self underneath all the programming, then, I imagine, he or she would flourish as a truly unique expression.

You don't think our current state is a step towards finding the core self? Is this another one of those expressions that humans are more than their bodies? Even supposing that is true, the discovery still appears to be happening through bodies. (Although "extremely self-center and asleep" seems like a comparison of yourself to others.)

I think people are more asleep than ever because of the extreme state of media influence. People are plugged into their devices more than ever.

Are you suggesting that this current world is not, to a large extent, asleep and self-centered? Or are you suggesting that I am an elitist who thinks I have no waking up to do myself? 

(07-16-2015, 02:51 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 02:41 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 02:38 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 02:12 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Also, you say "human behaviour is all over the map, suggesting an imbalance", is that because balance has to be behaviour consistent across a species? Is balance incapable of being diverse?

I would not want everyone to be the same. I do like diversity. But personally I would like to live in a society that wasn't so extremely self-centered and asleep that we have starvation and suffering and so little respect for other life forms.

Diversity can still exist without it being unconscious. In fact, I imagine that true diversity will emerge when we as humans start to really understand ourselves, to know ourselves apart from the media, the cultural pressures, the childhood wounds and roles. When an individual can find his or her core self underneath all the programming, then, I imagine, he or she would flourish as a truly unique expression.

You don't think our current state is a step towards finding the core self? Is this another one of those expressions that humans are more than their bodies? Even supposing that is true, the discovery still appears to be happening through bodies. (Although "extremely self-center and asleep" seems like a comparison of yourself to others.)

I think people are more asleep than ever because of the extreme state of media influence. People are plugged into their devices more than ever.

Are you suggesting that this current world is not, to a large extent, asleep and self-centered? Or are you suggesting that I am an elitist who thinks I have no waking up to do myself? 

What I am bringing attention to is what I call the 'circle of blame' which perpetuates itself.

If you want my honest opinion, I think when you say "current world" you are referring to "modern western-influenced society". Also, are you suggesting that in the past the world was less asleep and self-centered?

I actually do not believe we are as asleep as we used to be, I think the way that is usually judged is misguided. Again, it seems to me this is assessed entirely from an 'humans vs environment' perspective but you are aware that isn't the only relationship that is occurring, yes?

You talk about being asleep due to media influence, but what do you really mean when you say "asleep and self-centered"? You mean people are not thinking about the issues you think are important? That they don't see themselves as more than their bodies? That they don't have a more compassionate or unified philosophy?

It seems you want the world to wake up for you, not for them.

Also, people plugged in to their devices are becoming aware of a greater degree of the world than ever possible. You don't think that feeds the opening of consciousness? Just because the media washes everything, doesn't mean everyone is instantly brainwashed.

(07-16-2015, 02:59 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Also, people plugged in to their devices are becoming aware of a greater degree of the world than ever possible. You don't think that feeds the opening of consciousness? Just because the media washes everything, doesn't mean everyone is instantly brainwashed.

That's true. It is somewhat paradoxical from my perspective. The Internet is a great gift to connect everyone, and to provide information. And yet, what I see is a generation of kids and young adults more influenced by the media than ever, while being more informed than ever. My persecutive is limited though, as I don't see much media on a daily basis. 

How can you judge media you don't see? That seems presumptuous.

Also, to Jade, what do you think it is that puts entities 'out of rhythm' with Gaia? How is it not that these are also part of Gaia's rhythm? Again, that humans vs the Earth perspective.

(07-16-2015, 03:31 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]How can you judge media you don't see? That seems presumptuous.

I do see media. Are you purposely being antagonistic to me?

I just don't watch TV everyday, and read popular rags, and stay plugged into iPads and phones, etc. I am exposed to it however. For instance, I have been researching apps because I am developing one. I can see what's going on in the world without participating in everything. 

I know marketing as well, both from education and being in business for myself for most of my adult life. My opinions on how the media affects people is one of informed observation. I'm not a hermit who never interacts with society. 

(07-16-2015, 03:40 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 03:31 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]How can you judge media you don't see? That seems presumptuous.

I do see media. Are you purposely being antagonistic to me?

I just don't watch TV everyday, and read popular rags, and stay plugged into iPads and phones, etc. I am exposed to it however. For instance, I have been researching apps because I am developing one. I can see what's going on in the world without participating in everything. 

I know marketing as well, both from education and being in business for myself for most of my adult life. My opinions on how the media affects people is one of informed observation. I'm not a hermit who never interacts with society. 

I am being ignorant, is that unacceptable to you?

Funny you take it as being antagonistic because I am not sensitive with my words. No, I am not being antagonistic, you would be much more aware of it if I was, but I am being challenging, intentionally so. I was only responding to your own comment that you don't normally see media on a daily basis. How am I to know what your professional background is?

Don't worry, most people find me somewhat antagonistic, I somehow have never quite gotten down the whole 'gentleness' thing. I do not mean to be so sharp, but you are talking with a dragon, we have a hard time fluffing ourselves. It drives my girlfriend nuts that I am so blunt sometimes.

(07-16-2015, 03:56 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Don't worry, most people find me somewhat antagonistic, I somehow have never quite gotten down the whole 'gentleness' thing. I do not mean to be so sharp, but you are talking with a dragon, we have a hard time fluffing ourselves. It drives my girlfriend nuts that I am so blunt sometimes.

I don't mind blunt. I am that way as well. I just thought you might be willfully misunderstanding me rather than trying to understand what I was saying.

(07-16-2015, 04:01 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 03:56 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Don't worry, most people find me somewhat antagonistic, I somehow have never quite gotten down the whole 'gentleness' thing. I do not mean to be so sharp, but you are talking with a dragon, we have a hard time fluffing ourselves. It drives my girlfriend nuts that I am so blunt sometimes.

I don't mind blunt. I am that way as well. I just thought you might be willfully misunderstanding me rather than trying to understand what I was saying.

Think about that, what you just said. "Willfully misunderstanding". What does that mean to you? Is that something you fear from others?

(07-16-2015, 04:02 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:01 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 03:56 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Don't worry, most people find me somewhat antagonistic, I somehow have never quite gotten down the whole 'gentleness' thing. I do not mean to be so sharp, but you are talking with a dragon, we have a hard time fluffing ourselves. It drives my girlfriend nuts that I am so blunt sometimes.

I don't mind blunt. I am that way as well. I just thought you might be willfully misunderstanding me rather than trying to understand what I was saying.

Think about that, what you just said. "Willfully misunderstanding". What does that mean to you? Is that something you fear from others?

No, I don't fear it. I just want to have a discussion here on subject matter that interests me, and perhaps I make the assumption wrongly that those who read my words will get what I'm saying without me having to explain my life story, and they will cut me a little slack. This is my fault, and one of the reasons I am here: to hone my written communication skills. So I will take responsibility if there was a misunderstanding. 

(07-16-2015, 04:10 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:02 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:01 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 03:56 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Don't worry, most people find me somewhat antagonistic, I somehow have never quite gotten down the whole 'gentleness' thing. I do not mean to be so sharp, but you are talking with a dragon, we have a hard time fluffing ourselves. It drives my girlfriend nuts that I am so blunt sometimes.

I don't mind blunt. I am that way as well. I just thought you might be willfully misunderstanding me rather than trying to understand what I was saying.

Think about that, what you just said. "Willfully misunderstanding". What does that mean to you? Is that something you fear from others?

No, I don't fear it. I just want to have a discussion here on subject matter that interests me, and perhaps I make the assumption wrongly that those who read my words will get what I'm saying without me having to explain my life story, and they will cut me a little slack. This is my fault, and one of the reasons I am here: to hone my written communication skills. So I will take responsibility if there was a misunderstanding. 

What does it mean when someone "gets" what you are saying? What do you use to determine whether or not someone has done so?

(07-16-2015, 02:38 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]But personally I would like to live in a society that wasn't so extremely self-centered and asleep that we have starvation and suffering and so little respect for other life forms.

Yet here you are and not in any other kind of world where it wouldn't be like it is here.

What does that tell you? That this place is wrong and not a good place to be or that this masterpiece of Creation among infinite other masterpieces suited your needs for your own growth?

If you were to apply what Ra teaches to this planet as a whole in all of it's seeming imperfections, the only thing to be seen would be Love and Light. Not seeing it as such is a mirror unto our own distortions, which also is Love and Light.

You do realize what you just said is full of redundancy, yes?

(07-16-2015, 04:30 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]You do realize what you just said is full of redundancy, yes?

What's wrong with redundancy?

(07-16-2015, 04:31 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:30 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]You do realize what you just said is full of redundancy, yes?

What's wrong with redundancy?

Why does every question have to be based in the perception of 'wrongness'?

(07-16-2015, 04:32 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:31 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:30 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]You do realize what you just said is full of redundancy, yes?

What's wrong with redundancy?

Why does every question have to be based in the perception of 'wrongness'?

Sorry, I do realize.

About the why, well human nature?

(07-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:32 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:31 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:30 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]You do realize what you just said is full of redundancy, yes?

What's wrong with redundancy?

Why does every question have to be based in the perception of 'wrongness'?

Sorry, I do realize.

About the why, well human nature?

I was just checking. You think humans are naturally predisposed to perceiving questions as antagonistic or challenging?

because we're beasts in cloth.

(07-16-2015, 04:40 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:32 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:31 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 04:30 PM)Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]You do realize what you just said is full of redundancy, yes?

What's wrong with redundancy?

Why does every question have to be based in the perception of 'wrongness'?

Sorry, I do realize.

About the why, well human nature?

I was just checking. You think humans are naturally predisposed to perceiving questions as antagonistic or challenging?

Well I don't recall other 3D lifeforms, it seems like a natural ego thing.

We perceive what we want to perceive, not necessarily what was wished to be transmitted.

(07-16-2015, 04:17 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-16-2015, 02:38 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]But personally I would like to live in a society that wasn't so extremely self-centered and asleep that we have starvation and suffering and so little respect for other life forms.

Yet here you are and not in any other kind of world where it wouldn't be like it is here.

What does that tell you? That this place is wrong and not a good place to be or that this masterpiece of Creation among infinite other masterpieces suited your needs for your own growth?

If you were to apply what Ra teaches to this planet as a whole in all of it's seeming imperfections, the only thing to be seen would be Love and Light. Not seeing it as such is a mirror unto our own distortions, which also is Love and Light.

I understand your point. But this is mostly an intellectual understanding (for me). Can you tell me that were you to witness suffering first hand in front of you (your pet tortured, a starving family member, starving children in Africa, maimed children from warfare, or whatever might touch you personally) that you would be so detached in your understanding? It is not as black and white, here in the trenches of 3D, as some would like to make it. 

What I would like the world to be while I am here is selfish (because I find it difficult at times). But it is not me wishing to change it, rather, it is a recognition of what I would like it to evolve to. 

If you are indeed that evolved that you can look on everything as love and light, without it being lip service, then I aspire to your detachment. I still find it difficult to witness pain and suffering while understanding and honoring free will. 

What if I told you that this place will never evolve to that, however it already exists like that in another vibration so if you evolve yourself you can go to that state and experience it?