Bring4th

What does this mean to everyone here? 

I think this is a very difficult thing to balance. I tend to be more on the honest side, though I do strive for compassionate discourse. Yet often it just seems simpler and more to the point to be straightforward. I feel sometimes an excess of effort is placed on trying not to offend.

Yea I agree.

I wasn't sure where to put this topic as it doesn't necessarily have as much to do with members here as much as life in general. But since I remembered this phrase in the guidelines,  I figured it should go here but the mods can feel free to move it to the appropriate forum or subforum.

The idea for this thread came from my girlfriend and I working through one of her insecurities. As we wrapped up,  I stated that even though I strive not to be egotistic and "know it all" many times in these cases and in general when speaking to other selves about self acceptance issues,  I'm generally right. Not always by any stretch but a good majority.

This lead me to making the repeated admission that even though I am right in some cases, I tend to be what other selves claim is overly harsh or too direct. Their reason is because of compassion yet I think other selves have a skewed idea of what compassion truly is. It's not respect or care for another selves feelings. Its about the innate urge to help an other self. To come to the aid of those that need it and that's exactly what I strive to do yet I'm made out to be the bad guy in a sense because of what they perceive has harshness.

But what I've strived to understand is what's more true. The harshness of my words or their reaction to what they perceive as harsh words? Could the appalling reaction within an other self just be a defense mechanism to an imbalance on their end or am I being unnecessarily rude. In my head,  there is absolutely no malevolent intentions yet it's perceived this way.

Perhaps you are attempting to learn/teach for others?

(11-30-2015, 08:29 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps you are attempting to learn/teach for others?

I wouldn't say that I'm attempting to learn or teach for them. I'm exposing that which they themselves have chosen to avoid or not confront themselves. Some would say "well what business is it of mine to expose something that they may not necessarily be ready or willing to confront?" my answer is how better to deal with an imbalance or catalyst than by being confronted by it? How is one to work on anything or spiritually progress if such issues aren't brought to the forefront? 

A perfect example is the discussion my girlfriend and I had last night. I won't get into specifics but it was a topic that ended up making her uncomfortable. Instead of confronting this insecurity,  she froze and I immediately felt the wall come up. At that point,  I could have confronted her but allowed her to continue to avoid the issue. This resulted in me returning the uncomfortable vibe to which she felt and she probed until I told her why. 

This resulted in a back and forth discussion about opening up and how a mated pair should be completely open to one another. She apologized and said she has had this insecurity for a while and felt too uncomfortable to share it due to being embarrassed. 

So after that long winded merry go round of discussion,  I said to her "now had you confronted,  accepted,  and acknowledged this insecurity at the very beginning,  we could have worked upon it and resolved the issue before it got to the point it did. 

She understood and agreed with my explanation and this goes to the root of all self acceptance issues. By avoiding these issues and not allowing the issues to be brought to the forefront,  one will never even begin to confront them and work through the issue at hand. 

This I believe is the mistake in what people call compassionate actions because they tend to think that means being respectful and not hurting the other selves feelings when in reality,  there's no malevolent intention what so ever,  only an attempt to expose that which they have yet to confront. 

I do understand all of that, but are you not the one dictating that other-self should work on their distortions? In my view this can only be a mirror upon that you yourself avoid certain of your distortions. This might be a mean to do so, as you put your focus outwardly.

Anyway not implying you're doing anything wrong, in my view the essence of teach/learning is to learn from it and then adapt the teaching. So that you are asking yourself questions is a good starter to enhance your teach/learning.

Each self is the responsability of itself, whether it dwells into or work on it's distortion is it's own responsability.

I think the hallmark of honest and compassionate conversation is an emphasis on listening over talking, making sure that you understand where another person is coming from. Too often I focus on making my points rather than acknowledging anothers' points. That's when I know the conversation is decreasingly likely to effect desirable outcomes, as well as when I really feel threatened or challenged and need to place more attention on that inner state.

Oh yea I definitely agree.

Yet my confusion lies with how else would one work on issues than when a situation occurs to which they are presented with their imbalance?

If such an imbalance is encountered which then sparks an argument or a response filled with negative emotions, how can one realize the imbalanced response or emotion if such is not pointed out in the first place? Sure, in a conscious and mindful individual, they would recognize the emotionally-laden response, then try to understand why the response occurred then work upon the self to correct said action. Yet what if an other self doesn't even recognize that such a response is not a balanced response? How else would they see the err of their actions without it being brought to their attention? This type of avoidance and unconscious actions lie at the very heart of imbalances and how to progress from there.

Yet I know the consensus will be, well how is it my responsibility to make them aware of such. Well this entire existence is a teach/learn and learn/teach experience. What I'm attempting to teach is that orange ray imbalances of self acceptance is what I would consider the base to progressing up through the energy centers. Without accepting the self, there is no point attempting anything higher. By bringing such imbalances to the forefront, I'm attempting to help them. Even though I know such help wasn't requested, if such efforts will ultimately help them once they sit, calm down, and analyze what I've said and realize my ultimate reason was to help, then it was worth it. Even if they consider me mean or rude, I'm more than willing to be perceived as the bad guy if ultimately it helps them in the end

(11-30-2015, 11:36 AM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]I think the hallmark of honest and compassionate conversation is an emphasis on listening over talking, making sure that you understand where another person is coming from.  Too often I focus on making my points rather than acknowledging anothers' points.  That's when I know the conversation is decreasingly likely to effect desirable outcomes, as well as when I really feel threatened or challenged and need to place more attention on that inner state.

That's empathy not compassion. 

(11-30-2015, 09:29 AM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]This I believe is the mistake in what people call compassionate actions because they tend to think that means being respectful and not hurting the other selves feelings when in reality,  there's no malevolent intention what so ever,  only an attempt to expose that which they have yet to confront. 

I think that's a solid point of view.  

It's also rooted in a desire to assist and serve the other-self.

The other point of view I might bring in is that 'compassion' is often used as a proxy for yellow-ray avoidance of uncomfortable or confronting situations.  I say this coming from an asian culture (in terms of an influence growing up), where rather than say what actually 'is', it's just avoided to the point where people pretend the issue doesn't exist.  

So the avoidance of honesty at that point is not even about being compassionate, it's just about not wanting to rock the boat, as a social imperative.  I also know this exists in all cultures and institutions; it's just more insidious and pervasive (as a generalisation) to some asian families and cultures.

(12-01-2015, 09:33 AM)Bring4th_Plenum Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-30-2015, 09:29 AM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]This I believe is the mistake in what people call compassionate actions because they tend to think that means being respectful and not hurting the other selves feelings when in reality,  there's no malevolent intention what so ever,  only an attempt to expose that which they have yet to confront. 

I think that's a solid point of view.  

It's also rooted in a desire to assist and serve the other-self.

The other point of view I might bring in is that 'compassion' is often used as a proxy for yellow-ray avoidance of uncomfortable or confronting situations.  I say this coming from an asian culture (in terms of an influence growing up), where rather than say what actually 'is', it's just avoided to the point where people pretend the issue doesn't exist.  

So the avoidance of honesty at that point is not even about being compassionate, it's just about not wanting to rock the boat, as a social imperative.  I also know this exists in all cultures and institutions; it's just more insidious and pervasive (as a generalisation) to some asian families and cultures.

Yea and see that's the thing. I love challenging the status quo (heh autocorrect corrected that to Q'uo lol) 

I yearn for other selves to be true to themselves because that empowers them to finally evolve and attempt to improve external conditions that have plagued this sphere. This vortex of insecurities,  inferiority complexes,  doubts that one casts upon the self accomplishes nothing except confines them to a life of servitude as they are trapped within the prison of their own self deluding thoughts. 

By challenging these other selves to realize such counterproductive emotions are truly pointless, even though such emotions may initially bring out negative emotions,  it's worth it in my view. 

For far too long,  people have been ok with having orange ray issues. The play the victim card,  they think they are unworthy for some ungodly reason. They are resigned to this notion that they are weird or different without ever doing anything about it. This goes for this forum also. If one even attempts to point out an imbalance,  Oh my God I've hurt their feelings and they bury their head in the sand and feel that I'm being mean. 

It's that initial reaction that I'm looking for. It may not be pretty. It may not be pleasant, but that's exactly the feeling that one needs to feel to consciously realize that there ls work to do. Without that gut wrenching feeling,  one would never know that it wasn't conducive to spiritual growth. Are there better ways of phrasing such words? Most definitely and I fully admit that it's my main focus right now. But regardless of what words are said,  if the messenger has no malevolent intention yet the receiver perceives it as malevolent,  then it's the receivers responsibility to acknowledge it,  analyze it,  and try to find a reason as to why the reacted the way they did. 

Catalyst cannot be catalyst without catalyst and that's exactly what I try to do. 

This is the exact reason for what I do.

I like letting go of the tension that I feel almost daily.

May I ask, Jeremy, how you might respond to someone pointing out your own imbalances?

Also I see how you are making a point towards orange-ray issues and this is true. Might I offer maybe that while you seem quite balanced in your orange-ray, maybe this catalyst is presenting an imbalance you have in your yellow-ray?

Being willing to hurt people to 'fix' them sounds like it's more for your own desires than for theirs. Being direct and being harsh are NOT the same thing, imo. You can be direct without being stabbing. Are you sure you're not just impatient with the imbalances of others?

Oh, and to answer the OP, I think this type of discussion can only be mutual. However, to approach discussion with honesty and compassion I believe means finding the point of balance between what you perceive and what you empathize by placing yourself in their position. I think from this position is the best way to be of assistance, but it may not be about helping, it could be just more about listening as was mentioned. I think compassion isn't really a behaviour or an act, I think it is the foundation of empathy. Thus, I think that compassion comes when there is empathy. Beyond that is desire.

Thank you for your thoughts on my catalyst. Like how I said catalyst? This is how I absolutely love to learn by getting honest feedback from everyone so that I can apply it. I most heartedly agree with the yellow ray issue statement because, as I said, my main focus is trying to figure out a way to better phrase such words.

It's not about hurting them and that's the main reason for this subject. People perceive it as being hurt emotionally yet I have no intention of hurting them. It was only their response to the particular catalyst at hand that presented them with their negative emotional reaction. Had they been willing to listen closely to what was being said, instead of feeling as if I hurt their feelings, they would sit back and listen just as I have and realize, "hey that's a silly way of feeling, let's work on that."

It's not like I'm actually rude or mean by saying anything negative. I'll give some examples.

Say someone is saying how they feel weird about some insecurity or embarrassed about something superficial like on their body.

My response would simply be "why?" they'd squirm a little and ask why what? Why have such superficial ideas or insecurities about your body or feel weird about something that's trivial and accomplishes nothing? Most common response is "I Dunno, I just do" then I probe and probe until they either get annoyed or actually agree. A lot of times they get annoyed or just walk away.

I'm not saying stuff like "stop being so flippin weak" or ya know how trivial you are?

I have a little more tact than that lol.

As far as it being mutual, when is catalyst ever consciously mutual? Do you consciously ask for any lessons to appear as catalyst or do they simply appear? Same as my conversations. I attempt to provide the catalyst to which they appear to need by truly listening to their words, their body language, their eyes, and their emotions which then allows me to see and even feel insecurities within them.

People keep saying I'm not listening to them but in reality, I am listening much more than people realize.

What do you think the people who think you're not listening need to experience from you to feel validated?

My guess would be acceptance for who they are in the moment, instead of trying to scrutinize. I'm sure you do accept them but do your actions make them feel accepted? I think Aion's right that it's primarily yellow ray because you see yourself as a "fixer" (of men) and others aren't always accepting you in that role.

Excessive probing while someone is uncomfortable is not the highest form of help IMO. The best thing to do is create a space where someone feels comfortable to talk to you about these things, and wait for an in, and offer bite sized nuggets that might help them begin a different circle of thoughts in their head.

Thank you my sister for your input. I appreciate everyone's and after going round and round in my head as to why I appear to be so passionate about helping others evolve, I realized that it was out of frustration also. Frustration that many don't take the initiative to do some personal work. To actively evolve and progress either spiritually like here or just over all in everyday life.

This frustration then came back onto me and I realize that the frustration is also my own frustration for my lack of initial and discipline to get things progressing in my own life. Thus I'm lead to believe that this entire scene was meant to show that I need to get mah ass in gear lol.

I think part of the essence of service is acceptance that service can be rejected. As such a balanced approach would be to offer without expections of it being used.

(12-02-2015, 03:34 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]... I realize that the frustration is also my own frustration for my lack of initial and discipline to get things progressing in my own life.

Thus I'm lead to believe that this entire scene was meant to show that I need to get mah ass in gear lol.

what is it that you think you need to change?

(12-02-2015, 07:24 PM)Bring4th_Plenum Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-02-2015, 03:34 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]... I realize that the frustration is also my own frustration for my lack of initial and discipline to get things progressing in my own life.

Thus I'm lead to believe that this entire scene was meant to show that I need to get mah ass in gear lol.

what is it that you think you need to change?

Well a lot actually. I've sunken into that indifferent mode for quite a while as far as personal growth. Stuff like not meditating,  eating more junk,  drinking more,  not exercising, etc. I've found that my frustrations were being projected outwardly onto other selves for their lack of doing when I'm just as guilty just in other areas. 

I good at my lower levels but have lacked the discipline to attempt to stay at those higher levels on a routine basis. Sure I know that never stays at the higher energy levels but my admitted laziness and general malaise towards actively seeking to further crystallize those higher levels is what has been keeping me back. 

Kinda like chasing that first high. I yearned for that overwhelming feel good feeling one has when they first awaken. Yet I know that such desires are fleeting and even self deluding and apt for disappointment due to my own laziness. 

My girlfriend and I both actually admitted to this today. She meditated by herself and felt that love between us and that yearning or calling from her own guidance to jump back on that rocky path that we traverse. We been basking in the desert for far too long. 

So I thank everyone for their contributions to this thread. Even though most suggestions weren't directed at such a conclusion,  it nevertheless lead me there so thanks! 

Sometimes catalyst takes unexpected forms. I'm glad you recognized the frustration as that was what I was feeling off you and hence my comment about impatience.

I think this thread is also a perfect example of how different approaches to conversation can all work in varying fashions but I think what is most important is the focus of the individual themselves. Our words weren't meaningful because they were the words we said, they were meaningful because they acted as a mirror in which you could examine your self. However I stress that this worked because you yourself were already willing. You already had the desire and we became part of the manifestation of catalyst which fueled and ignited that desire.

We helped, but you are the one forging the path.

Oh and on that note, I'm basically in the exact same boat. Hard catalyst lately showing that the reason my reality 'lost' its mystical demeanor is because I stopped investing energy in it. I think it's because I feel I have completed the 'basic' part of my path and am now moving in to adept work. I feel like a college student who has taken tons of courses but is now expected to take a major but I am indecisive.

(12-02-2015, 08:09 PM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]... I feel like a college student who has taken tons of courses but is now expected to take a major but I am indecisive.

That reminds me of this quote:

Sylvia Plath Wrote:I saw my life branching out before me like the green fig tree in the story. From the tip of every branch, like a fat purple fig, a wonderful future beckoned and winked. One fig was a husband and a happy home and children, and another fig was a famous poet and another fig was a brilliant professor, and another fig was Ee Gee, the amazing editor, and another fig was Europe and Africa and South America, and another fig was Constantin and Socrates and Attila and a pack of other lovers with queer names and offbeat professions, and another fig was an Olympic lady crew champion, and beyond and above these figs were many more figs I couldn't quite make out. I saw myself sitting in the crotch of this fig tree, starving to death, just because I couldn't make up my mind which of the figs I would choose. I wanted each and every one of them, but choosing one meant losing all the rest, and, as I sat there, unable to decide, the figs began to wrinkle and go black, and, one by one, they plopped to the ground at my feet.

Pretty much the story of my life. I essentially move where the wind takes me, although I do exercise some degree of control. 

Like you, the only path I see myself following is the path of the Adept. Every time I think of another path, I always think of this meme:

The more aware one becomes, the more difficulty there is in balancing compassion with honest communication, in my experience. The problem I find is that it makes me feel separate and connected at the same time.

Connected because my awareness and compassion create a link between me and an other-self (whether that be human, animal, plant, etc.). Separation, at least where humans are concerned and communication with them, because of the concept of free will and respect for that, which makes me reticent about communicating what I really think. 

However, just because I can, out of awareness and empathy, see what is going on with another this doesn't mean I have the whole picture or the right to take away someone else's realizations. This is what I endeavor to remember. But this situation makes honest communication a difficult thing to really understand. I must put it into perspective for myself and realize that though I may seem to be so much more aware of what might be going on, my awareness in turn is limited as well, and so the black-and-whiteness of the situation is not so apparent as it may seem.

I feel this is one of the greatest paradoxes in this reality: being separate yet connected. Each seem to grow in proportion to the other until the paradox can be resolved. For me at this time, though I feel both, it is only in fleeting instances when the paradox ceases to exist. The reason for this, I think, is that we have preconceived, subconscious ideas of what connectedness is. Humans have created for themselves cozy notions of family and friends, such as families eating together at Thanksgiving or friends talking about their lives, but this is not in my opinion what real connectedness is about (though I don't mean to denigrate these things in any way). When I have those fleeting moments of actually knowing the flow of connectedness of everything, all human concerns other than compassion for absolutely everything fall away. I don't care at all about being able to talk to anyone, or being understood. These are 3D notions that create the illusion of connectedness.

I know I am connected but I just don't feel it. Sometimes I can fake it though.

(11-29-2015, 11:44 PM)Jeremy Wrote: [ -> ]What does this mean to everyone here? 

Honest but compassionate, wise, unity-based, endless discussion.