Sometimes it´s hard to understand Ra´s statement about the opposite polarity. Ra stated more than once that one is no better than the other. If a 4th density neggie will plunder If he/she get the chance, than it seems that Ra states this negative action as completely normal. No respect to free will would be disobedience for both polarities.
I´m sure Ra choose his words very carefully because of the ´prime directive´. There are a lot of things he can´t tell us.
did you have a couple of passages in mind that triggered this line of thinking, darklight?
(12-10-2015, 08:19 PM)Bring4th_Plenum Wrote: [ -> ]did you have a couple of passages in mind that triggered this line of thinking, darklight?
Quote:The distortion lies in the fact that those who seek to serve the self are seen by the Law of One as precisely the same as those who seek to serve others, for are all not one? To serve yourself and to serve other is a dual method of saying the same thing, if you can understand the essence of the Law of One.
There are a lot or more, this one I found it at a quick search.
ra lapses into poetic imagery and the use of negatively connotated words when describing the sts path. it gives the impression of sts individuals as caricutures of sadistic and perverse villains laughing in the dark over peoples suffering, rather than intelligent, charismatic and capable individuals pursuing a path that gives them meaning. members of the forum that have pursued the sts path have expressed that the impression of it by positives is often far from what it actually is. so i'd say Ra is not entirely politically correct when describing sts and in the same vein of thought u could say their description of sto might be equally biased in the other direction.
e.g.
Quote:Ra: I am Ra. We can speak only in metaphor. Some love the light. Some love the darkness. It is a matter of the unique and infinitely various Creator choosing and playing among its experiences as a child upon a picnic. Some enjoy the picnic and find the sun beautiful, the food delicious, the games refreshing, and glow with the joy of creation. Some find the night delicious, their picnic being pain, difficulty, sufferings of others, and the examination of the perversities of nature. These enjoy a different picnic.
Quote:Even the most unhappy of experiences, shall we say, which seem to occur in the Catalyst of the adept, seen from the viewpoint of the spirit, may, with the discrimination possible in shadow, be worked with until light equaling the light of brightest noon descends upon the adept and positive or service-to-others illumination has occurred. The service-to-self adept will satisfy itself with the shadows and, grasping the light of day, will toss back the head in grim laughter, preferring the darkness.
(12-10-2015, 08:24 PM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2015, 08:19 PM)Bring4th_Plenum Wrote: [ -> ]did you have a couple of passages in mind that triggered this line of thinking, darklight?
Quote:The distortion lies in the fact that those who seek to serve the self are seen by the Law of One as precisely the same as those who seek to serve others, for are all not one? To serve yourself and to serve other is a dual method of saying the same thing, if you can understand the essence of the Law of One.
There are a lot or more, this one I found it at a quick search.
Well everything is One, you don't get to interact with anything other than yourself in limited awareness of your whole Self.
Like spero has said though, there's a clear distinction between how things are perceived by the Law of One and how they are perceived through Ra. In their good will those of Ra give info about how things are and not just how they mainly feel about it as a group.
@darklight
I think polarity is one of those things that is hard to grapple with; as we all tend to have 'idealised scenarios' of what positive service is (as a concrete example of service), and what a negative service would look like. In truth, whenever two entities have an interaction, there is an infinite amount of shading and possibility that they bring to the table, which then leads to unpredictable outcomes.
In terms of the Ra Quote you offered, this passage came to mind for me:
Quote:1) Those who are upon the service-to-others (STO) path may call upon the light strength in direct proportion to the strength and purity of their will to serve.
2) Those upon the service-to-self (STS) path may call upon the dark strength in direct proportion to the strength and purity of their will to serve.
In terms of the specifics of the conundrum that you offered, though, I would probably reframe it as the notion of 'offering service'. One can see the offering of service as either a positive greeting or a negative greeting. That is the slanting of the service in itself. But in terms of integrating that service into the individual entity's Overall Interpretation, it's an opportunity for the self to continue comprehending itself as the Creator; which is another way of saying that the Law of One is referencing the Law of "one beingness" or the Law of "one consciousness".
so-called negative service or negative greeting is an act of service towards a positive entity because they have to come to grips with what another portion of the One Consciousness has chosen to do. So even though the STS entity is
thinking they are serving themselves, in the framework of One Consciousness, it is offering the positive entity a further opportunity to integrate. What the negative entity is doing can't be classified as 'positive service' as such, but in the context of unity, it's an act of service nonetheless.
In this third density quarantaine (or jail
), I would say, there are people they share and people who don´t share due to the free will. Dual method of saying the same thing according Ra, that´s a perspective in the sixth density. In the meanwhile, after completing the third density, the real separation begins.
Quote:So even though the STS entity is thinking they are serving themselves, in the framework of One Consciousness, it is offering the positive entity a further opportunity to integrate
These 4th density neggies are just like kids and lacking awareness of unity. Only late 5th density and begin sixth density entities are aware of unity due to the wisdom they gained.
And how is it possible that we can understand this lacking? We are third density humans and are aware of fourth density ´mistakes´.
I think Ra was just trying to prep the group for the incoming style of sts polarity they'd be coming up against. IIt'd be better to honestly tell the group Sts and sto in lower tiers of service are essentially similar with intent being the decider, whereas in more advanced catalyst the polarity choice begins formulating actual 'severe' catalyst to be given and handed. Including apparently some brushes with death, for both sides against each other.
They aren't attached to Time, so they probably had a small clue as to the incoming difficulty what with their intangible 5D 'murdering sts' entity, with the murder aspect being a service trying to be given without free will consent, similar to one of us LBRP'ing a negative entity zapping them from their desired placement.
The actions available get more severe. But on both ends polarity is One in the Same. On the one hand you feel and do many things. On the other hand you feel and do many things. Both are unique to their polarity in areas, but both underlie the exact same energy.
Intelligent Energy.
Difference/Similarities exist between STO/STS. Both are capable of light and darkness.
Almost makes me desire to be Neutral.
(12-10-2015, 09:16 PM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:So even though the STS entity is thinking they are serving themselves, in the framework of One Consciousness, it is offering the positive entity a further opportunity to integrate
These 4th density neggies are just like kids and lacking awareness of unity. Only late 5th density and begin sixth density entities are aware of unity due to the wisdom they gained.
And how is it possible that we can understand this lacking? We are third density humans and are aware of fourth density ´mistakes´.
What tells you 4D positives are also not just little kids who are lacking awareness of unity?
The fact is Ra's statements of the STS path only reveals as much as asked by the questionner. And basically anything under 7D isnt fully aware of unity which includes Ra. But you should see it as either path being a service from creator to creator. You can always find a service to self behind each sto actions and a service to others behind each sts actions. The more you transcend the idea of polarity the closer you are to understanding the true nature of the creation and the Law of One.
Well, I think this whole conversation is dancing around what's probably one of the most uncomfortable aspects of the LOO for many people who dig into it: It provides no objective ethics or morality, aside from recognition of Oneness. In fact, Ra's comments about the inevitability of eventually abandoning polarity all together directly imply that no matter what someone thinks is "right" or "good," it's just another set of distortions.
What we think of as physical reality is basically just a sandbox playground for experiences of all sorts. Entities are effectively free to try out different approaches, different mixtures of polarity, and different styles of living solely as their own desires to grow and learn dictate. Even if they do something that ends up causing great harm to themselves or others, there's no punishment. They're healed on the other side and then free to try again. (See also: Ra's comments about Hitler.)
But that's a tough idea for a lot of people to swallow, especially when nearly every major philosophy on Earth, from Sikhs to Objectivists, is predicated on it being the best or the most righteous way. The LOO says "Nope, they're all pretty much equal."
(12-11-2015, 12:25 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]What tells you 4D positives are also not just little kids who are lacking awareness of unity?
Ra's discussion of higher-dimensional "battles" throughout
Session 25 speaks directly to this, when he says that only the 4D entities on both sides actually fight directly because they lack the wisdom not to.
(12-11-2015, 12:25 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2015, 09:16 PM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:So even though the STS entity is thinking they are serving themselves, in the framework of One Consciousness, it is offering the positive entity a further opportunity to integrate
These 4th density neggies are just like kids and lacking awareness of unity. Only late 5th density and begin sixth density entities are aware of unity due to the wisdom they gained.
And how is it possible that we can understand this lacking? We are third density humans and are aware of fourth density ´mistakes´.
What tells you 4D positives are also not just little kids who are lacking awareness of unity?
It´s action ---> reaction. Besides, is the Confederation not the whole? And are they not at least 10 times bigger in numbers of members than Orion sts?
The seeds of ´evil´ are in 3th density worlds, the elites. They are perverted.
(12-11-2015, 07:32 AM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2015, 12:25 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2015, 09:16 PM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:So even though the STS entity is thinking they are serving themselves, in the framework of One Consciousness, it is offering the positive entity a further opportunity to integrate
These 4th density neggies are just like kids and lacking awareness of unity. Only late 5th density and begin sixth density entities are aware of unity due to the wisdom they gained.
And how is it possible that we can understand this lacking? We are third density humans and are aware of fourth density ´mistakes´.
What tells you 4D positives are also not just little kids who are lacking awareness of unity?
It´s action ---> reaction. Besides, is the Confederation not the whole? And are they not at least 10 times bigger in numbers of members than Orion sts?
The seeds of ´evil´ are in 3th density worlds, the elites. They are perverted.
So if the gradual shift of polarity continues until the STS polarity would become more common, then it'd be right and STO wrong?
(12-11-2015, 08:56 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]So if the gradual shift of polarity continues until the STS polarity would become more common, then it'd be right and STO wrong?
They are learning/teaching until they are mature in the density of unity. There is nothing to teach and nothing to learn in late sixth density, this will open the gate to the seventh.
Since all is One, the mistakes, made by the lower sts beings, are all our own mistakes. But again, this is the perspective of the density of unity. A wise person will never choose the sts path because the sts path is the path of learning. A wise person already has the wisdom.
(12-11-2015, 09:17 AM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2015, 08:56 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]So if the gradual shift of polarity continues until the STS polarity would become more common, then it'd be right and STO wrong?
They are learning/teaching until they are mature in the density of unity. There is nothing to teach and nothing to learn in late sixth density, this will open the gate to the seventh.
Since all is One, the mistakes, made by the lower sts beings, are all our own mistakes. But again, this is the perspective of the density of unity. A wise person will never choose the sts path because the sts path is the path of learning. A wise person already has the wisdom.
In unity there are no mistakes, no paradox, no disharmony, just unity.
As far as I am aware STO polarized entities don't get to skip 5D which is the density of wisdom.
maybe we can formulate this:
STS = the path of learning and correct the distortions
ST0 = patience and understanding the mess of other selves
(12-11-2015, 10:01 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2015, 09:17 AM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ] (12-11-2015, 08:56 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]So if the gradual shift of polarity continues until the STS polarity would become more common, then it'd be right and STO wrong?
They are learning/teaching until they are mature in the density of unity. There is nothing to teach and nothing to learn in late sixth density, this will open the gate to the seventh.
Since all is One, the mistakes, made by the lower sts beings, are all our own mistakes. But again, this is the perspective of the density of unity. A wise person will never choose the sts path because the sts path is the path of learning. A wise person already has the wisdom.
In unity there are no mistakes, no paradox, no disharmony, just unity.
As far as I am aware STO polarized entities don't get to skip 5D which is the density of wisdom.
Unless the positive polarized entity is a wanderer.
(12-11-2015, 10:08 AM)darklight Wrote: [ -> ]maybe we can formulate this:
STS = the path of learning and correct the distortions
ST0 = patience and understanding of other selves
I'm not quite sure why you think there is no learning in the STO path. The lessons can only be countless in my view.
But I do agree that the STS path has a greater intent in learning whereas the STO path has more intent in dwelling in what self feels to be right. Which is why prior to the exploration of the STS path (through the use of the veil), evolution was slow, the experience vividless and colorless. And that was so until it became seen as not useful anymore.
You could say in some strange way that our experience is that of the Creator learning of Himself and that the STO path reflects resistance to learning further about what we all are. But well that is part of the Creator like anything else happening within Creation.
I don't think the negative path is ignorant of unity. I just think it embraces separation. Which is the only way they are "wrong", as true existence is unity. But we are unity exploring separation. So... we need the negative path to divide us, so we can find our way back together again.
The thing is STO densities also seperate themselves from STS densities before 7D. I don't think it is correct to see the STS path as the only one who learn, the only one doing mistakes, the only one embracing separation. Even Ra seems to have distortions towards his view of STS and even though he is aware of unity he doesn't embrace what is not of the path he is following. Being aware of unity and being unity is completely different. Most people who categorize themselves as STO are often the first ones to dismiss and reject what they see as wrong, bad or evil. But there is no wrong, bad or evil, only different experiences through serving the self or other selves as creator. They are equal, equally right, equally learning, equally balancing themselves, equally experiencing the creator and have both infinite potential of creation. Someone who is categorizing himself as STO that cannot see this is only self-righteous and blind to the real essence of oneness and unity. Every STO entity rejecting any part of the STS density only create more separation and more STS polarization. Being STO is not only learning to love other selves it is also learning to love what is not you, what is different from you and opposite from you for what it brings to the creation. Only then can someone truely call themselves STO.
(12-13-2015, 11:45 PM)matrix_drumr Wrote: [ -> ]The thing is STO densities also seperate themselves from STS densities before 7D. I don't think it is correct to see the STS path as the only one who learn, the only one doing mistakes, the only one embracing separation.
I don't think anyone is implying this. Both paths are learning, but they are learning different things. But both paths are ultimately after slightly different things. If they weren't, they wouldn't be different paths. It is true they are both seeking a degree of contact with intelligent infinity, but I agree with Jade that the negative polarity consciously and willingly embrace separation. And let's be clear: separation is not any better or worse than unity. It is just another state of being. STO beings are after equality between all selves, whereas STS entities are after ultimate power over other selves (which is pretty much the exact opposite of equality between all selves).
Power over other selves is
only possible in separation, thus, they are only interested in oneness, or contact with intelligent infinity, insofar as it increases their power. Beyond that exploration of control, there is no point in pursuing negative polarity, which is called repeatedly in the Ra material "the path of separation". After the greatest extent of power has been explored by sixth density service to self beings, the only path left to explore is the path of unity, and this they choose to do in an instantaneous energy realignment.
And then joined together as one, both groups of consciousness ascend to 7th density in perfect unity.
I don't like this image of STS being only what we see in the elite, politicians and bankers creating a system of fear, hierarchy and war. This an idealized image of it. It is an image that creates separation by itself. There is infinite degrees of grey between black and white. Someone can simply be egoist or over self centered and be STS without trying to put everybody his/her slaves or kill innocent people. This idea feels to me like some people don't want to see that there is a bit of STS in each and everyone. Just because you make a conscious choice of being STO doesn't mean you are now free from anything coming from the STS path. Unless everyone acts like jesus there will be some black dots everywhere along your journey to the white path. STS or STO isn't a definitive state. They are only two attractive forces that attracts every of our choices and takes our journey through both of them enough times until we realize we can consciously have an impact on how much we are attracted by each one of them. You can influence polarisation through freewill but not seperate yourself from any side of it. Being STO is also a service to the self. There is no way around it. I don't mean to say anybody here is wrong but seeing STS as only (power over people) is just one side of a coin.
(12-14-2015, 12:58 AM)matrix_drumr Wrote: [ -> ]I don't like this image of STS being only what we see in the elite, politicians and bankers creating a system of fear, hierarchy and war. This an idealized image of it. It is an image that creates separation by itself. There is infinite degrees of grey between black and white.
While it is absolutely true that there are infinite gradations between the polarities, the thing is that those "grey" areas you are talking about are
not conscious polarization. At least, not of a 4th density harvestable percentage. Those people are in the "sink-hole of indifference" (which most of the human population is in). I agree that there is service to self and service to other in everyone, but "conscious polarization" looks a lot different than "unconscious polarization" which is more the grey area you are talking about in my opinion.
A lot of people don't like the characterization of STO/STS being equivalent to "good/evil", but honestly I don't see those labels for polarization as any worse than "positive/negative" or "radiance/absorption". I think the mistake most people assume is that the creator frowns upon the choice of evil, when in fact, it doesn't.
There is good and evil, but not right and wrong.
How can there be evil without wrong? How do you define evil? I think the radiance/absorbtion concept you mentioned is the best way to conceptualize STS/STO. It is easy to see someone being in the grey unconscious area of sts as being absorbing rather than any form of negative conotation word.
(12-14-2015, 11:51 AM)matrix_drumr Wrote: [ -> ]How can there be evil without wrong? How do you define evil? I think the radiance/absorbtion concept you mentioned is the best way to conceptualize STS/STO. It is easy to see someone being in the grey unconscious area of sts as being absorbing rather than any form of negative conotation word.
I define evil as serving self above all others. How do you define it? Evil is a mode of behavior. If I go to the root of every moral code conceived on this planet, I feel most cultures would agree that serving self above others is the very essence of "evil behavior".
To me, "wrong" implies something like "if you do this, you will be punished by the creator" (like be thrown into hell or something). Therefore, there is no right or wrong, because all choices are valid. The All blinks neither at the darkness nor at the light. The creator is exploring both sides of the coin: good/evil, positive/negative, light/darkness, radiance/absorption. These are just words to denote opposite polarities. You seem to have an aversion to "negative connotation" associated with describing the STS path (this isn't a judgment, just an observation), but the word "negative" just implies an opposite to something. Again, no wrongness to it, just the other end of the pole.
(12-11-2015, 02:15 AM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I think this whole conversation is dancing around what's probably one of the most uncomfortable aspects of the LOO for many people who dig into it: It provides no objective ethics or morality, aside from recognition of Oneness. In fact, Ra's comments about the inevitability of eventually abandoning polarity all together directly imply that no matter what someone thinks is "right" or "good," it's just another set of distortions.
What we think of as physical reality is basically just a sandbox playground for experiences of all sorts. Entities are effectively free to try out different approaches, different mixtures of polarity, and different styles of living solely as their own desires to grow and learn dictate. Even if they do something that ends up causing great harm to themselves or others, there's no punishment. They're healed on the other side and then free to try again. (See also: Ra's comments about Hitler.)
But that's a tough idea for a lot of people to swallow, especially when nearly every major philosophy on Earth, from Sikhs to Objectivists, is predicated on it being the best or the most righteous way. The LOO says "Nope, they're all pretty much equal."
Although I can't quote the material from Ra, I do recall instances of his encouraging his listeners to follow the path of love, light and service to others. However, there are other paths to follow which lead up the same mountain. LOO, in my opinion, appeals to a somewhat limited group of aspirants who are very mixed left and right brain, who love both technology and spirituality, who have a very rational bent. From a rational point of view, if God is infinite and eternal, then God must include everything, n'est-ce pas? If one is attracted to, say, yogic meditation, one doesn't even need to think about such things, and a different type of person is drawn to that path.
My personal situation is that I am drawn to most of the paths that include love of the light, and also to Taoism, which, I suppose, is more neutral. (Even Taoism focuses on beauty - esp. the beauty of nature.) However I would not be interested in, say, an Eastern Martial Arts approach to spirituality. Maybe I come of Lemurian stock!
I have had dreams about attempting to escape from those who seemed to be of negative polarity.
(12-14-2015, 12:14 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ] (12-14-2015, 11:51 AM)matrix_drumr Wrote: [ -> ]How can there be evil without wrong? How do you define evil? I think the radiance/absorbtion concept you mentioned is the best way to conceptualize STS/STO. It is easy to see someone being in the grey unconscious area of sts as being absorbing rather than any form of negative conotation word.
I define evil as serving self above all others. How do you define it? Evil is a mode of behavior. If I go to the root of every moral code conceived on this planet, I feel most cultures would agree that serving self above others is the very essence of "evil behavior".
To me, "wrong" implies something like "if you do this, you will be punished by the creator" (like be thrown into hell or something). Therefore, there is no right or wrong, because all choices are valid. The All blinks neither at the darkness nor at the light. The creator is exploring both sides of the coin: good/evil, positive/negative, light/darkness, radiance/absorption. These are just words to denote opposite polarities. You seem to have an aversion to "negative connotation" associated with describing the STS path (this isn't a judgment, just an observation), but the word "negative" just implies an opposite to something. Again, no wrongness to it, just the other end of the pole.
I find your definitions somewhat awkward. I can't see evil as being a service at all in 3rd density. Maybe high densities work would apply as they do cause death fear and destruction for the sake increasing polarity but is that really evil from their perspective? And your definition of wrong would seem more fitting for the word sin. Wrong would imply incorrectness which is impossible among the Law of One. There is no punishment involved with the wrongness conotation. As for the aversion toward negative conotation it is justified as negative conotion is only implied when not fully seeking to understand. Among the universal love in the Law of One nothing can be described using negative conotation if fully undertood.
It's important to understand that our role in this density is expressly to have the kinds of emotionally charged, socially constructed opinions that those of Ra avoid. So when we hear these kinds of sixth density viewpoints, we have to understand that they come in some ways (me talking here, take with a grain of salt) with a certain amount of remove--not emotional remove, but remove from the socially reinforced norms which are the water we swim in. I'd wager that even if right or wrong are somehow absolutes, how do we recognize them outside the context of the social, political, cultural signposts that are themselves merely props and not the characters themselves? And if these are not the props in Ra's drama, then doesn't that excite one's curiosity about the common threads in both experiences, and what we could learn about unity and eternity through the critical and careful comparison?
That leads me to believe that Ra is right on the money: that it's at least more spiritually usefu (but also more consistent and elegant) to see the kinds of things we usually use "right and wrong" on in terms of energetic and identitarian polarity. By useful I mean: it tells us more about the kind of thing we are and what it means to be a thing like us.
It's important to understand that right and wrong, to the extent we can think about them coherently, are beliefs, models of ideal reality, and not themselves concrete facts (unless you're some kind of fundamentalist). As such, normative beliefs constitute an act of personal volition and, in a way, a kind of creative act, a way I can take responsibility for how I apprehend this third density experience. So if it's all about perspective, in other words viewing different parts of the Creator from different positions, then it would be part and parcel of believing in right and wrong to frequently experience each, and to experience each in different flavors, definitions, etc. The more perspectives we can integrate, the more of the whole we see, and the more of the whole we see, the less need we even have for these norms in their parochial forms.
This is what's so fascinating and special about the ability to converse with beings from beyond our waking experience: of course they would have in some ways a totally alien view of the kinds of things we take for granted. Finding a way to reconcile a spiritual unity with a broken human condition is where all the mystery, magic, love and light lie. In other words: perhaps the goal isn't to figure out the right answer here, but to have compassion for each entity and see their opinions as pieces of a puzzle whose total illustration cannot possibly be countenanced with the few pieces we have.
One way to look at it is: either those of Ra are right, and we need to accept others as self even when they horrify and frighten us because they are literally us in some important way that isn't intuitive or obvious, or they are incorrect and we should discard the opinion and its consequences. Funnily enough, that's precisely what the confederation asks us to do anyway.
Another way to look at it is: maybe there is some sense in which those of Ra have a valid point, and then it becomes: how much use can I make of that perspective in my spiritual path? This seems to me the best way to approach it: to use the imagination and the deep mind to feel out the contours of these thought patterns and find through trial and error where the seams end up consistently.