Bring4th

Quote:

69.11 Questioner: Can you tell me of the situation that the Wanderer finds itself in and why the path back cannot be the simple moving back into the same value of positive time/space?

Ra: I am Ra. The path back revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time①. This may be a significant part of the length of that path. Secondly, when a positively oriented entity incarnates in a thoroughly negative environment it must needs learn/teach the lessons of the love of self thus becoming one with its other-selves.

70.6 Questioner: In the last session Ra stated that “the path back from sixth-density negative time/space revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative time/space②.” Could you explain the higher self’s position with respect to positive and negative time/space and why it is so reluctant to enter negative time/space③ that it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back?

Ra: I am Ra. In brief, you have answered your own query. Please question further for more precise information.

70.7 Questioner: Why is the higher self reluctant to enter negative time/space④?

Ra: I am Ra. The Higher Self is reluctant to allow its mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space⑤ for the same basic reason an entity of your societal complex would be reluctant to enter a prison.

70.14 Questioner: Oh yes. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. Now, if a positive entity is displaced to negative time/space I understand that the higher self is reluctant to enter the negative time/space⑥. And for some reason this makes it necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time. Why is it necessary for this incarnation in negative space/time?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, let us remove the concept of reluctance from the equation and then secondly, address your query more to the point. Each time/space is an analog of a particular sort or vibration of space/time. When a negative time/space is entered by an entity the next experience will be that of the appropriate space/time. This is normally done by the form-making body of a mind/body/spirit complex which places the entity in the proper time/space for incarnation.

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In this particular case the answer we are looking for comes from logic and previous information on time/space and space/time from Ra. We know from Ra’s previous comments that in every density entities incarnate from time/space into space/time. We also have numerous instances in Sessions #68 and #69 where Ra correctly states this information in regards to displacement into negative time/space for a positive entity.

Ra occasionally would make errors due either to Carla’s low vital energy or to pain flares in her body. Ra did this a couple of times in Session #70 and Don was drawn into making mistakes in his questions regarding the time/space and space/time situation. So we need to go with logic here and what we know from previous comments from Ra about the time/space and space/time situation.

Quote:

70.6 Questioner: In the last session Ra stated that “the path back from sixth-density negative time/space revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time②.” Could you explain the higher self’s position with respect to positive and negative time/space and why it is so reluctant to enter negative space/time③ that it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back?

Ra: I am Ra. In brief, you have answered your own query. Please question further for more precise information.

70.7 Questioner: Why is the higher self reluctant to enter negative space/time④?

Ra: I am Ra. The Higher Self is reluctant to allow its mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative space/time⑤ for the same basic reason an entity of your societal complex would be reluctant to enter a prison.

70.14 Questioner: Oh yes. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. Now, if a positive entity is displaced to negative time/space I understand that the higher self is reluctant to enter the negative time/space⑥. And for some reason this makes it necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time. Why is it necessary for this incarnation in negative space/time?

• why it is so reluctant to enter negative time/space that it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back?
  

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In 70.6, in my interpretation, there may be just one mistake in Don's second mention of time/space. The cause for this mistake, as I mentioned, is that Don misused Ra's first part of answer ("the path back revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time" where he intentionally replaced space/time with time/space) in 69.11 to explain why "the displaced mind/body/spirit cannot be extracted from negative time/space to the home planet". Thus, although Don made a mistake in understanding, he did not misspeak the word here. Accordingly, the question in 70.7 may be dealing with time/space rather than space/time. 

I infer that, when the question was being asked in 70.14/17, the reasoning in Don's mind is that: (1) entering negative time/space is like entering a prison =(thus)=>  (2) the higher self is reluctant for its own mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space, which Don said he understood in 70.14 =(thus)=> (3) there are still some reason in between, which Don still had not understood =(thus)=> (4) the positive wander cannot be extracted from negative time/space to the home planet  =(thus)=> (5) it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back.

Then from Ra's view, since time/space is no more homogenous than space/time, it is understandable that the displaced positive spirit cannot be extracted from the negative time/space to its home planet. Thus, the reasoning of Ra in 70.6/7 may simply be that: (a) entering negative time/space is like entering a prison =(thus)=> (b) the higher self is reluctant for the displaced mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space, although the higher self is also reluctant (to a less extent) for the displaced mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative space/time  =(thus; no need for (3)(4) in Don's reasoning)=> © it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back. Consequently, Don's question (why it is necessary for this incarnation in negative space/time) in 70.14 is "perplex" for Ra when Ra had not perceived the basic miscalculation of Don until Ra did in 70.17. 

Note: Don may also have made one another mistake; that is, Don thought it is for the higher self's own mind/body/spirit complex that the higher self is reluctance to enter negative time/space. However, Ra meant that it is for the displaced mind/body/spirit complex that the higher self is reluctance to enter negative time/space.

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Now I would like to know your viewpoints on this question. Our discussion may have the possibility/probability vortex of improving the latest edition of the Ra Contact.

Thank you all very much for your energy, patience and tolerance of my poor writing in English. I appreciate the opportunity to start this discussion with you.

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A note added on 06-04-2016 

To be fair, one point (which I forgot to mention in the original post) needs to be made clearly for the edits which the editor made in 70.6/7.

One reason why the editor thinks Ra made mistakes in 70.6/7 is that he thinks entities only enter or incarnate in space/time rather than time/space, because, as he said, "what we know from what Ra has told us throughout the contact is that entities reside in time/space in any of the densities before incarnating into space/time."  

However, I found that entities can either incarnate into space/time, or incarnate into time/space, as you can see below: 

Quote:21.7 Questioner: Were there any of these entities then incarnated in second density before the 75,000-year cycle?
Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. These particular entities were incarnate in time/space third density, that is, the so-called inner planes, undergoing the process of healing and approaching realization of their action.

Thus, the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative time/space is not necessary wrong. That is to say, both of time/space and space/time can be entered. So it's possible that the basis of the editor's reasoning may be inadequate.

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A note added on 06-09-2016

It turns out that due to some miscommunication,  I am wrong in assuming that the editor tends to replace time/space with space/time in 70.6/7. So the text in question will not be changed, as Austin said in #16 of this thread,  

Quote:In the project with the new Ra Contact book, procedure will be to not change any of Ra's words directly, even in instances where they make corrections themselves. At most, footnotes will be added where mistakes and confusions are seen, just like on http://www.lawofone.info

Hi Sean. I'll offer my insight, though I haven't pondered these quotes for the lengths of time that you have

I believe, in 70.6, Don made an obvious mistake. He was referring to something Ra said in the previous session, but Ra did say space/time and not time/space. I think Don tripped up, and then Ra will often follow Don's trip ups, as he's stated before.

Quote:85.14 Questioner: I am just interested in the problem here that we sometimes have with transmission since the word “others” was used three times in the transmission rather than the word “self.” And could you give me an idea of the problem of communication that we had there that creates that type of an anomaly which, if I didn’t catch, could create a rather large discrepancy in communication?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we may note the clumsiness of language and our unfamiliarity with it in our native, shall we say, experience. Secondly, we may point out that once we have miscalled or misnumbered an event or thing, that referent is quite likely to be reused for some transmission time, as you call this measurement, due to our original error having gone undetected by ourselves.

I think it's good to keep in mind the context of Don's questioning in session 69: Ra had informed them that the ultimate goal of the 5th density negative friend was to "lead Carla away" to negative time/space as she fell into trance (thereby killing her), as opposed to when she would usually be lead to positive time/space to rest with Ra during the trance sessions. If she wasn't sure in her challenging, or in a moment of weakness went with the first entity that appeared as Ra, that is what would happen to her. A very rare scenario indeed. Ra is talking about, if Carla were led to negative time/space, that she would have to INCARNATE into space/time to retrace her steps back to positive time/space. Ra is saying that for an entity of positive orientation to incarnate into negative space/time from time/space is, I'm guessing, the difficult part of being in the negative densities. But it's necessary.

So, since they are dealing with something that is very emotionally charged for Don to have to deal with, I think it's likely that Don unintentionally erred, and Ra followed the errors. I think when Ra speaks of space/time they are talking about incarnation, and time/space as inbetween incarnations. Carla would have already been (willingly, unintentionally) led to negative time/space, and to get back to positive time/space she has to incarnate in space/time of the negative density to repolarize.

I agree with your assessment, although I will say that I think for Ra it was just a convenient way to subtly make more clear the situation and in a way answer more possible questions. I often see Don's mind as being rather mechanical, like finely crafted clockwork, flexible but still built on structure. Ra I see more as an organic kind of mind, things don't necessarily have a concrete structure and don't have to because things work through principles, and intelligent energy naturally builds using those principles.

(04-16-2016, 12:46 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Sean. I'll offer my insight, though I haven't pondered these quotes for the lengths of time that you have

I believe, in 70.6, Don made an obvious mistake. He was referring to something Ra said in the previous session, but Ra did say space/time and not time/space. I think Don tripped up, and then Ra will often follow Don's trip ups, as he's stated before.

Quote:85.14 Questioner: I am just interested in the problem here that we sometimes have with transmission since the word “others” was used three times in the transmission rather than the word “self.” And could you give me an idea of the problem of communication that we had there that creates that type of an anomaly which, if I didn’t catch, could create a rather large discrepancy in communication?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we may note the clumsiness of language and our unfamiliarity with it in our native, shall we say, experience. Secondly, we may point out that once we have miscalled or misnumbered an event or thing, that referent is quite likely to be reused for some transmission time, as you call this measurement, due to our original error having gone undetected by ourselves.

I think it's good to keep in mind the context of Don's questioning in session 69: Ra had informed them that the ultimate goal of the 5th density negative friend was to "lead Carla away" to negative time/space as she fell into trance (thereby killing her), as opposed to when she would usually be lead to positive time/space to rest with Ra during the trance sessions. If she wasn't sure in her challenging, or in a moment of weakness went with the first entity that appeared as Ra, that is what would happen to her. A very rare scenario indeed. Ra is talking about, if Carla were led to negative time/space, that she would have to INCARNATE into space/time to retrace her steps back to positive time/space. Ra is saying that for an entity of positive orientation to incarnate into negative space/time from time/space is, I'm guessing, the difficult part of being in the negative densities. But it's necessary.

So, since they are dealing with something that is very emotionally charged for Don to have to deal with, I think it's likely that Don unintentionally erred, and Ra followed the errors. I think when Ra speaks of space/time they are talking about incarnation, and time/space as inbetween incarnations. Carla would have already been (willingly, unintentionally) led to negative time/space, and to get back to positive time/space she has to incarnate in space/time of the negative density to repolarize.

Thank you for replying, dear Jade, and I always very appreciate your very helpful astrological reading for me, which I read from time to time. 

Yeah, I did spend lots of time in pondering on it, and my original post was actually based on several earlier discussions with others. So it is very lengthy.

As to your insight on this question, I have to disagree with it from my perspective, for, if Ra did follow the errors Don made, we have to replace all of time/space and space/time that Ra said with space/time and time/space in several following answers to understand them before Ra detected this error. However, this may make more problems, for other uses of time/space and space/time by Ra is right. 

I hope others can also contribute to our discussion here.

Hello Dear Sean Hsu,

I’ve read again both sessions and for me everything is clear without any changes – it all was sorted out within this question/answer

Quote:69.13
QUESTIONER: You said the higher self is reluctant to enter negative space/time. Is that correct?

RA: I am Ra. The incarnative process involves being incarnated from time/space to space/time. This is correct.

That is why later on Don changed space/time to time/space.

Besides Ra also said:

Quote:69.11
QUESTIONER: Can you tell me of the situation that the Wanderer finds itself in and why the path back cannot be the simple moving back into the same value of positive time/space?

RA: I am Ra. The path back revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time. This may be a significant part of the length of that path. Secondly, when a positively oriented entity incarnates in a thoroughly negative environment it must needs learn/teach the lessons of the love of self thus becoming one with its other-selves.

When this has been accomplished the entity may then choose to release the potential difference and change polarities.

However, the process of learning the accumulated lessons of love of self may be quite lengthy. Also the entity, in learning these lessons, may lose much positive orientation during the process and the choice of reversing polarities may be delayed until the mid-sixth density. All of this is, in your way of measurement, time-consuming although the end result is well.

“Thoroughly negative environment” is (according to my understanding) both time/space and space/time.

RA also described relations between both:

Quote:70.14
QUESTIONER: Oh yes. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. Now, if a positive entity is displaced to negative time/space I understand that the higher self is reluctant to enter the negative time/space. And for some reason this makes it necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time. Why is it necessary for this incarnation in negative space/time?

RA: I am Ra. Firstly, let us remove the concept of reluctance from the equation and then secondly, address your query more to the point. Each time/space is an analog of a particular sort or vibration of space/time. When a negative time/space is entered by an entity the next experience will be that of the appropriate space/time. This is normally done by the form-making body of a mind/body/spirit complex which places the entity in the proper time/space for incarnation.

So, one enters space/time through entering time/space first, which corresponds with “proper” space/time (“(…)of a particular sort of vibration(…)”).

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Regarding what was said about “Higher Self reluctance to enter space/time” – RA mentioned of the “length of the path”, which later on He/She/It/Them once again connected with the length of the “path within space/time” – for positive Entity to learn Love-of-Self and through that the Love to Other-Selves.

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I see no contradiction there. If You still do, please express them.

All I have Best in me for You

Dear third-density-being, 

Thank you very much for your reading and replying.

So your viewpoint seems to be a new one (namely, a third one) other than the two I mentioned in my original post. Although I still maintain my viewpoint, I actually prefer your viewpoint to the first viewpoint, for both of us agree that there is no need for any changes. 

However, I know from Jim that the latest edits to 70.6/7 in the Ra Contact (which is in its editing process and may be published at the end of this year) adopts the first viewpoint; that is, changing "time/space" to "space/time" in, at least, four places colored red:

Quote:70.6 Questioner: In the last session Ra stated that “the path back from sixth-density negative time/space revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time.” Could you explain the higher self’s position with respect to positive and negative time/space and why it is so reluctant to enter negative space/time that it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back?

Ra: I am Ra. In brief, you have answered your own query. Please question further for more precise information.

70.7 Questioner: Why is the higher self reluctant to enter negative space/time?
Ra: I am Ra. The Higher Self is reluctant to allow its mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative space/time for the same basic reason an entity of your societal complex would be reluctant to enter a prison.

Based on your reasoning, I think this latest edits may also be fine to you. But I think there may be a key point missed here; that is, why Don asked about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative time/space again and again in session 70 (given the answer is very clear from session 68 and 69; that is,

• a highly polarized positive mind/body/spirit complex surrounded by negative portions of time/space will experience only darkness,
  
• it is difficult for a positive mind/body/spirit complex to learn lessons of self-love in negative space/time,
  
• and the path back from a negative time/space takes much longer)
  

Quote:68.7 Questioner: Then you are saying that if this fifth-density negative entity is successful in its attempts to transfer the mind/body/spirit complex when that complex is in what we call the trance state to negatively polarized time/space, then the higher self has no choice but to allow incarnation in negatively polarized space/time? Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The Higher Self could allow the mind/body/spirit complex to remain in time/space. However, it is unlikely that the Higher Self would do so indefinitely due to its distortion towards the belief that the function of the mind/body/spirit complex is to experience and learn from other-selves thus experiencing the Creator. A highly polarized positive mind/body/spirit complex surrounded by negative portions of space/time* will experience only darkness, for like the magnet, there is no, shall we say, likeness. Thus a barrier is automatically formed.

* Don’s follow-up question and Ra’s answer to it (68.8) appear to indicate that Ra meant to say time/space here.

69.11 Questioner: Can you tell me of the situation that the Wanderer finds itself in and why the path back cannot be the simple moving back into the same value of positive time/space?
Ra: I am Ra. The path back revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time. This may be a significant part of the length of that path. Secondly, when a positively oriented entity incarnates in a thoroughly negative environment it must needs learn/teach the lessons of the love of self thus becoming one with its other-selves.

When this has been accomplished the entity may then choose to release the potential difference and change polarities.

However, the process of learning the accumulated lessons of love of self may be quite lengthy. Also the entity, in learning these lessons, may lose much positive orientation during the process and the choice of reversing polarities may be delayed until the mid-sixth density. All of this is, in your way of measurement, time-consuming although the end result is well.

From my perspective, the reason why Don asked that question in session 70 is that he did not know why the displaced mind/body/spirit cannot simply be extracted from negative time/space to the home planet. That's the thrust of Don's several questions in session 70, which he finally made clearly in 70.17.

Please note that: Ra indicated in 69.11 that it is due to the Higher Self's reluctance to enter negative space/time that "the path back cannot be the simple moving back into the same value of positive time/space". Thus, in order to clarify his confusion, Don asked that question about higher self's reluctance.

Quote:70.17 Questioner: Now here is the point of my confusion. If, after physical death, a Wanderer would return to his home planet, shall I say, why cannot the same entity be extracted from negative time/space to the home planet rather than incarnating in negative space/time?

Ra: I am Ra. As we stated, the position in negative time/space, of which we previously were speaking, is that position which is pre-incarnative. After the death of the physical complex in yellow-ray activation the mind/body/spirit complex moves to a far different portion of time/space in which the indigo body will allow much healing and review to take place before any movement is made towards another incarnative experience.

I perceive a basic miscalculation upon your part in that time/space is no more homogenous than space/time. It is as complex and complete a system of illusions, dances, and pattern as is space/time and has as structured a system of what you may call natural laws.

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As to the contradiction, there actually are two: one is Don's changes of Ra's words (i.e. s/t to t/s); the other one happens only when Don's words are changed (i.e. t/s to s/t).

While Don's changes are understandable for me, the latter or new changes are what I disagree with for it makes contradiction as mentioned in my original post.

Besides, though without any new changes, your interpretation may also lead to problems in my eyes,

Quote:70.6 Questioner: In the last session Ra stated that “the path back from sixth-density negative time/space revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative time/space.” Could you explain the higher self’s position with respect to positive and negative time/space and why it is so reluctant to enter negative time/space that it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back?

70.14 Questioner: Oh yes. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. Now, if a positive entity is displaced to negative time/space I understand that the higher self is reluctant to enter the negative time/space. And for some reason this makes it necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time. Why is it necessary for this incarnation in negative space/time?

From these underlined sentences, the logic of Don is that: it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time, because the higher self is reluctant to enter the negative time/space.

According to what you wrote about the higher self's reluctance, that sentence may be translated into: it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time, because the path back from negative environment is very difficult and lengthy.

Do you think this sentence makes any sense?

This part of the material always gave me a headache.

I, too, do not think the text should be edited to reverse t/s and s/t.

In 69.11' Ra knows ( but Don doesn't, yet) that it is impossible for even the Higher Self to "extract" Carla from the "preincarnative" launch area of negative time/space. Once you have passed those security gates, there's no going back. You can stay in the gate waiting area for as long as you want, but there is only one exit from the "preincarnative" launch area, and it is a most unpleasant negative 3D planet. So Ra did correctly say space/time here.

In 70.6, Don did make an erroneous assumption that Ra's answer in 69.11 was about the Higher Self's reluctance to go into negative time/space to rescue the displaced sub-entity/Carla. (That wasn't actually the reason.). Yet Don literally asked only about the Higher Self's personal reluctance to go into negative time/space. He asked this twice, in 70.6 and 70.7. Ra answered, essentially, because it is a dark and sucky place to visit.

Note that Ra is not linking 70.6 and 70.7 with the "displaced" entity concern of 69.11 because, after Don started question 70.6 with "the path back" hook to the displaced Carla problem-issue, when Don finally got around to actually asking the question, he straight up asked only about the HS going into negative time/space. If only he'd asked, "why doesn't the Higher Self go rescue to sub-entity Carla?" Ra answered by describing the unpleasantness off all negative time/space. It was not a particularized answer as to why the Higher Self would not go to the special "preincarnative" launch area of negative time/space where Carla would have been kidnapped to.

We finally get the actual answer in 70.14. Once the sub-entity/Carla enters the special "preincarnative" launch area, the incarnation must take place. But implicit in the answer is also the fact that if the Higher Self actually went there to rescue the subentity/Carla the Higher Self too would be trapped and forced into at least one incarnation into negative space/time. Essentially, the Higher Self becomes a Wanderer too, just like the sub-entity/Carla. That means at least one lifetime trapped in Negative space//time, or possibly the whole 25,000 year cycle.

So, a rescue mission only gets both entities incarnating again (metaphysical property of the preincarnative launch area). The only practical answer is for the subentity/Carla to sit at the gate forever, or for the subentity/Carla to go through incarnation.

I hope they do not make edits to this text. It makes sense as written.

Hi ricdaw,

Thank you very much for your contribution to this discussion. I agree with you to a great extent. 

What impress me most is your ability to express that idea so well and clearly. Your interpretation will definitely shed light upon this question, although there is a small mistake I find in your reply; that is, if the negative time/space were entered by Carla, she would incarnate into negative space/time of equivalent vibration and polarity distortions, rather than 3D space/time. 

Quote:68.6 Questioner: Could you tell me what the plan of the fifth-density negatively oriented entity was and how it would have accomplished it and what the results would have been if it had worked?
Ra: I am Ra. The plan, which is ongoing, was to take the mind/body/spirit complex while it was separated from its yellow body physical complex shell, to then place this mind/body/spirit complex within the negative portions of your time/space. The shell would then become that of the unknowing, unconscious entity and could be, shall we say, worked upon to cause malfunction which would end in coma and then in what you call the death of the body. At this point the higher self of the instrument would have the choice of leaving the mind/body/spirit complex in negative sp— we correct— time/space or of allowing incarnation in space/time of equivalent vibration and polarity distortions. Thus this entity would become a negatively polarized entity without the advantage of native negative polarization. It would find a long path to the Creator under these circumstances although the path would inevitably end well.

68.9 Questioner: Incarnation in negative space/time then in a condition like that would result in incarnation into which density level for, let us take as an example, the instrument?
Ra: I am Ra. The answer to this query violates the first distortion.

68.10 Questioner: OK, let’s not take the instrument then as an example. Let’s say that this was done to a Wanderer of sixth density. If this answer violates the first distortion, don’t answer. But let’s say a sixth-density Wanderer had this happen, and went into negative time/space. Would that be a sixth-density negative time/space, and would he incarnate into sixth-density negative space/time?
Ra: I am Ra. Your assumption is correct. The strength of the polarization would be matched as far as possible. In some positive sixth-density Wanderers the approximation would not quite be complete due to the paucity of negative sixth-density energy fields of the equivalent strength.

Dear Sean Hsu,

What I’ve wrote regarding “reluctance of the Higher Self” and why Ra use term space/time – it was my understanding WHY He/She/It/They used space/time and not time/space. But You are correct that it was a mistake made by Ra during the communication and my conclusion was wrong. I apologize for not enough vigilance on my side while I was replying to your post.

Since Ra Materials in it’s original form permits to draw quite clear understanding regarding relations of space/time and time/space – and an entire matter for Being being lured into negative time/space, I concluded that everything is clear.

In your first post You’ve pointed out mistakes/inconsistencies that are present within the Ra Materials – which in fact do exist – on both sides of Don and Ra’s, but they are followed by questions/answers that clarifies all misunderstandings.

The question now is what are the attitudes toward those “imperfections” within the Material.
The Ra Materials are – above all – a conversation between two Beings, supported by Service of Carla, Jim and Others, that We do not know about. For me personally, mistakes made by both – Don and Ra – during this conversations were/are very important. In fact, I think it would be more difficult for me to accept this material without them.

It all comes to individual background of All and Each of Us. I rejected concept of “God” long ago and I could not accept it’s “different version” – which in some way would seem to me as such, if Ra Materials were “flawless”. RA is/are no more “God” than Each One of Us. They ARE imperfect and He/She/It/They DO possess limitations, as We All do. It may be strange, but I needed to see/experience those limitations my-Self, and via such mistakes I was able to.

Mistakes/Inconsistencies within this Material carries information about the contact itself, as well as about All it’s Participants. I wasn’t around for a while and from You I’ve find out about plans of editing Ra Materials, which I think is a very bad idea. As I wrote before, mistakes made during this contact also carries informative-value and to change them would be to taint the Ra Materials. In my opinion this is unacceptable and should never be done.
Even a compromise, such as “adding notes” between questions/answers, is something I’m not agreeing upon, as this would suggest certain understanding to the Reader, and by that it would infringe His/Her freedom of formulating His/Her own understanding, without any suggestions.

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To conclude my answer to your query: Yes, there are imperfections / contradictions within the content of the Ra Materials, but based on an entire conversation they are clarified within it as well. Also, in my opinion, those imperfection / contradictions possess value and should not be changed under any circumstances.

All I have Best in me for You

Dear third-density-being,

Quote:

87.17 Questioner: Thank you. We noticed the possibility of a confusion between the term “mind/body/spirit” and “mind/body/spirit complex” in the last session. Were there a couple of misuses of those terms, shifting one for the other?

Ra: I am Ra. There was an error in transmission. The use of the term “mind/body/spirit” should refer to those entities dwelling in third density prior to the veiling process, the term “mind/body/spirit complex” referring to those entities dwelling in third density after the veiling process. We also discover a failure on our part to supply the term “complex” when speaking of body after the veiling. Please correct these errors. Also, we ask that you keep a vigilant watch over these transmissions for any errors and question without fail as it is our intention to provide as undistorted a series of sound vibration complexes as is possible.

86.20 Questioner: Will you do this?
Ra: I am Ra. Yes. Let us deal with the sexual energy transfer. Before the veiling such a transfer was always possible due to there being no shadow upon the grasp of the nature of the body complex* and its relationship to other mind/body/spirit complexes** in this particular manifestation. Before the veiling process there was a near total lack of the use of this sexual energy transfer beyond green ray.
_____________
* Should be “body,” not “body complex.”
** Should be “mind/body/spirits,” not “mind/body/spirit complexes.”
Ra and Don corrected these errors in session 87.

 

26.38 Questioner: ...... She states, please explain these blockages and energy transfers with emphasis upon what an individual seeking to be in accordance with the Law of One may positively do in this area? Is it possible for you to answer this question?

Ra: ........
In third* ray there are two possibilities. Firstly, if both vibrate in third* ray there will be a mutually strengthening energy transfer, the negative or female, as you call it, drawing the energy from the roots of the beingness up through the energy centers, thus being physically revitalized; the positive, or male polarity, as it is deemed in your illusion, finding in this energy transfer an inspiration which satisfies and feeds the spirit portion of the body/mind/spirit complex, thus both being polarized and releasing the excess of that which each has in abundance by nature of intelligent energy, that is, negative/intuitive, positive/physical energies as you may call them; this energy transfer being blocked only if one or both entities have fear of possession, of being possessed, of desiring possession or desiring being possessed.
* This should be fourth or green. Don and Ra corrected the error in session 32.

32.3 Questioner: From the material that you transmitted February 17th you stated: “In third ray there are two possibilities. Firstly, if both vibrate in third ray there will be a mutually strengthening energy transfer.” What color is third ray in this material?

Ra: I am Ra. The ray we were speaking of in that material should be properly the green ray or fourth ray.

32.4 Questioner: So I should change that third to fourth?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. Please continue to scan for errors having to do with numberings, as you call them, as this concept is foreign to us and we must translate, if you will, when using numbers. This is an ongoing weakness of this contact due to the difference between our ways and yours. Your aid is appreciated.

 
Adding notes actually does not make this material perfect or flawless. These errors detected by Don and Ra during the contact have already proved the limitations of Ra. The purpose of the editing is to make the material as undistorted as possible, rather than to make the material perfect or to let Ra look like a "God". We should not confound the former with the latter.

Thus, in my opinion, there is no problem to note these errors that have been corrected by Don and Ra during the contact. Problems may come only when errors happened and were not detected during the Ra Contact, such as the case we are discussing. In that case, although I agree totally with your opinion that those imperfection / contradictions possess value and should not be changed under any circumstance, I do think a neutral note (basing on the Ra Material itself) may have its merits. For example, if the inconsistency between 69.11 and 70.6 is not noted, it is likely that lots of readers will not detect it and thusly miss the thrust of Don. Besides, without the note, some readers who do detect the inconsistency (such as me in the past) may be more confused by it. 

That being said, without the note, it's also OK for me. I just hope that the text in question should not be changed, as long as it is possible that our viewpoints are right. 

---

Now, after almost a week's discussions, there are only three people other than me who disagree with the latest edits in 70.6/7. Then, it may not be enough to convince the editor. In other words, the possibility/probability vortex I mentioned in my original post has not become a probability/possibility vortex yet.

I hope there will be more people who can share their viewpoints on this tough question in the following few weeks. All viewpoints, whether agree with us or not, are welcomed and counted. 

Dear Sean Hsu,

In case, when Ra Him/Her/It/Them-Self/Selves asked for correction, it might be done, but I guess Don/Carla/Jim Complex made Their own decision to left things as they were with all that follows – i.e. clarification made by Ra.

I agree with your remark, that if things are not corrected right away but are explained in next session for example (or ‘later’), than there may be added a note/comment pointing this out. But I think that’s it. No other alterations should be made.

I also think that it is not an amount / number of Other-Selves that matters in such conversation, but the arguments that are layed/laid out.
Knowing that such alterations will be most likely done, I’m glad I possess the original “Law of One” books which I will be reading in the future – not “latest edition” that has been “corrected”.

All I have Best in me for You

Dear third-density-being,

I very appreciate your comments and your advise not to count number. I agree with you that it is not the amount matters in such conversation, although I do think the amount of other-selves may help to let the editor to consider this question again. This is one of the reasons why I initiated this thread of discussion. 

As the latest edition is still in the editing process, the possibility that I mentioned before still exists. As long as there is a chance that the text in question can be unchanged, and our arguments are reasonable, I will try my best to prevent the changes.

As to the latest edition which is based on the Re-listening Project, I am fairly sure that it is better and less distorted than the original five books of LOO. (Besides, the new edition will also contain lots of good stuffs, such as glossary, photo gallery, index, and so on.) For more information about the different versions and a way to identify the differences between them, please see the versions page.  
___________________

Since there was no other new post in the past two weeks, I think it's time for me to send a summary of this ongoing discussion to the editor. Although the support till now is not large, it may be enough for me to seek more help. After all, among those who has already participated in this thread of discussion, there seems to be no one who has reasonable ground for the other viewpoints, which are always welcomed. 

Thanks for all who have given attention to this discussion, especially for those who have contributed to this discussion by sharing opinions!

Hi Sean,

I managed to wrap my head around this finally, and wanted to ask for some clarification. I think I agree that you may be correct, that Don did intentionally change space/time to time/space in his 70.6. Please tell me if I am correct in understanding your opinion. 

When Ra originally said "The path back revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time." What they are implying is that the higher self is reluctant to have the mind/body/spirit complex of the entity who was displaced enter negative space/time - that is, the higher self itself isn't reluctant to enter space/time, but reluctant to have its "lower self" enter space/time.

Don misunderstood this, despite the clarification in 69.13:

Quote:69.13
QUESTIONER: You said the higher self is reluctant to enter negative space/time. Is that correct?

RA: I am Ra. The incarnative process involves being incarnated from time/space to space/time. This is correct.

This did not clear up Don's thinking, and so he intentionally switched the term space/time for time/space in 70.6, because that made more sense to him.

Is everything up to this point correct? If so, the next part I am more confused about.

Do you believe that in Ra's response in 70.7, when they say "time/space," they are actually referring to time/space, or are they intending to mean space/time, but became tripped up by Don's use of the term time/space, and continue using it in error? I would be very grateful if you could clarify that point for me, thank you!

---

(04-24-2016, 10:03 AM)third-density-being Wrote: [ -> ]Knowing that such alterations will be most likely done, I’m glad I possess the original “Law of One” books which I will be reading in the future – not “latest edition” that has been “corrected”.

If you are hoping for the purest form of Ra and Don's conversations, the original books (the five blue copies) are not a good source for that. They themselves were edited in various ways, with many transcription errors and missing passages. The new edition will be much more accurate to the actual conversation than those books. But, for the purest of the pure, you will want to be reading the relistened edition on www.lawofone.info. It is as completely close to the original tapes as possible. Though even then, you should consider the introduction of human distortion by way of simple mistakes as well as decisions on placement of punctuation, paragraph breaks, and other grammatical aspects.

The relistened version can be seen on any session on LOO.info by scrolling to the bottom and clicking on "Relistened."

Hi Austin,

Thank you so much for looking into this question and sharing your opinions on it. Honestly, I’m excited to discuss with you about this question.
 
Firstly, I’m very glad to know that you think I may be correct, for it suggests the opposite opinion may be wrong. As long as we cannot be sure which opinion is correct, the replacing t/s with s/t is not justified.
 
Then, let’s go to the question. In my opinion, you are correct in saying that the higher self is reluctant to have its "lower self" enter space/time. This is because, as Don put it in 69.14-15, the negative space/time environment would be an extremely difficult situation for the positively polarized entity and the learning process would be extremely traumatic.
 
But I think you may be incorrect in saying that the higher self itself isn’t reluctant to enter negative space/time, for the higher self may not have such a choice or opportunity for itself to enter negative space/time (and time/space). In other words, it seems to me that it's just impossible for the higher self itself to do that. So the higher self will not feel reluctant or unreluctant for itself to do that.

(P.S. wherever Ra mentioned the higher self's reluctance, Ra was referring to the higher self's reluctance for its past self to do that. But Don considered the higher self's reluctance as the higher self's reluctance for itself to enter negative time/space.)
 
Yeah, Don did misunderstand what Ra really meant, and Ra’s confirmation in 69.13 did not clear up Don’s thinking. I think there are two causes for this misunderstanding. Firstly, Ra used an elliptical sentence (omitting the object; that is, its past or lower self”) which left rooms for Don’s misinterpretation. Secondly, the fact that “the higher self is reluctant to have its lower self enter space/time” cannot solve the main confusion of Don (that is, why the displaced mind/body/spirit cannot simply be extracted from negative time/space to the home planet), whereas the higher self’s reluctance for itself to enter time/space seems to explain why that’s impossible.
 
So, up to this point, I think most of what you have said are correct.
 
As to Ra’s response in 70.7, a note is added today at the end of the original post to make the view of the editor clear.

When I initiated this thread, I was not sure whether Ra meant to say time/space or space/time in my original post when I mentioned this question:

Quote:It is indeed so that the condition in negative space/time for a positive mind/body/spirit is like a prison. It also makes sense that the condition in negative time/space for a positive mind/body/spirit is also like a prison (Where only darkness will be experienced. . . A barrier is automatically formed.(68.7))

Now, from my viewpoint, I tend to think that Ra meant to say time/space in 70.7, for the negative time/space environment is more like a prison. After all, in the negative space/time environment, the positive m/b/s can still “experience and learn from other-selves” (68.7), although “the process of learning the accumulated lessons of love of self may be quite lengthy” (69.11)  
 
Finally, although I am not so sure, I feel that: as I replied to Jade in #4,

Quote:If Ra did follow the errors Don made, we have to replace all of time/space and space/time that Ra said with space/time and time/space in several following answers to understand them before Ra detected this error. However, this may make more problems, for other uses of time/space and space/time by Ra is right.

I think a very good example is in 70.14, where both Don and Ra used the words correctly in my eyes, and the negative "time/space" in the equation is what Ra and Don really meant, and other uses of time/space and space/time in this quote are correct.

Quote:70.14 Questioner: Oh yes. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. Now, if a positive entity is displaced to negative time/space I understand that the higher self is reluctant to enter the negative time/space. And for some reason this makes it necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time. Why is it necessary for this incarnation in negative space/time?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, let us remove the concept of reluctance from the equation and then secondly, address your query more to the point. Each time/space is an analog of a particular sort or vibration of space/time. When a negative time/space is entered by an entity the next experience will be that of the appropriate space/time. This is normally done by the form-making body of a mind/body/spirit complex which places the entity in the proper time/space for incarnation.

I hope my reply makes sense to you. If there is any mistake in my reply or you have different views, please let me know. It's really my pleasure to discuss with you.

With love/light,

Sean

I corresponded with Sean in emails and he gave me a background story of this post, which stemmed from the inconsistency Don made in 70.6 when quoting Ra's response in 69.11:

69.11: Ra:...the path back revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time...
70.6: Don:...the path back [...] revolves, firstly, about the higher self’s reluctance to enter negative time/space...

The inconsistency above set off discussions within L/L community a few months ago on revisiting the reference of "time/space" in 70.6 and 70.7, leading to Sean's post in Apr.

I must say I applaud the tenacity shown in this pursuit.

(06-02-2016, 05:47 PM)Bring4th_Austin Wrote: [ -> ]Do you believe that in Ra's response in 70.7, when they say "time/space," they are actually referring to time/space, or are they intending to mean space/time

I discussed with Sean my thought on this query, and found we're both on the same page. So upon Sean's suggestion, I'm copying my thought here:

One possible cause for confusion could be Ra answers 69.11 (where the Wanderer is the subject of the query and he is already placed in negative t/s) in a different context compared to its answer in 70.7 (where Ra seems not to be referring to the Wanderer subject in 69.11 already in negative t/s, but instead makes a general comment that the Higher Self is reluctant to allow any mind/body/spirit complex - not the said Wanderer - to enter negative t/s)

The significance of this difference in context is that:

* in 69.11 what necessarily follows is the question: when will the Higher Self let the Wanderer incarnate in s/t

* in 70.7, since the Higher Self will not (or will be reluctant to) move any of its mind/body/spirit complex into negative t/s, negative s/t does not even have to come into picture

That's why I find the existing response from Ra in 70.7 acceptable given the context above.

Quote:70.7 - Ra: The Higher Self is reluctant to allow its mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space for the same basic reason an entity of your societal complex would be reluctant to enter a prison.

Sean,

I'm putting this note at the top of the post so that it is duly noted. This is something that should have been cleared up a while ago, but just now in conversation with Gary was I struck with the clarity to make sure it was communicated. In the project with the new Ra Contact book, procedure will be to not change any of Ra's words directly, even in instances where they make corrections themselves. At most, footnotes will be added where mistakes and confusions are seen, just like on www.lawofone.info. I understand you may have been told differently, as there may have been some misunderstandings or miscommunication along the way in this editing process. However, rest assured that protocol at this point is to not change any of the text. This has always been the plan despite hiccups due to confusion.

This discussion you have brought up is interesting in its own right and relevant as to whether or not clarification is needed within the text itself (as a footnote). I understand and appreciate completely your concern that the text itself would be changed. I want to make sure its clear that at this point in time, there is no intention to do so. This book will undergo thorough editing and review to ensure this protocol and other important details are followed.

Just wanted to make that clear. I am sorry if you were lead to believe otherwise, and all of the work you have done to avert that. I hope this will ease some of your worry

---

(06-03-2016, 12:01 PM)Sean Hsu Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Then, let’s go to the question. In my opinion, you are correct in saying that the higher self is reluctant to have its "lower self" enter space/time. This is because, as Don put it in 69.14-15, the negative space/time environment would be an extremely difficult situation for the positively polarized entity and the learning process would be extremely traumatic.
 
But I think you may be incorrect in saying that the higher self itself isn’t reluctant to enter negative space/time, for the higher self may not have such a choice or opportunity for itself to enter negative space/time (and time/space). In other words, it seems to me that it's just impossible for the higher self itself to do that. So the higher self will not feel reluctant or unreluctant for itself to do that.

Yes, I agree. I was intending more about Ra's intended statement. Whether or not the higher self is reluctant to enter negative space/time itself is likely an illogical question.

Quote:(P.S. wherever Ra mentioned the higher self's reluctance, Ra was referring to the higher self's reluctance for its past self to do that. But Don considered the higher self's reluctance as the higher self's reluctance for itself to enter negative time/space.)

Yes, I do believe that this is the heart of the possible misunderstanding between Don and Ra.

Quote:When I initiated this thread, I was not sure whether Ra meant to say time/space or space/time in my original post when I mentioned this question:

Quote:It is indeed so that the condition in negative space/time for a positive mind/body/spirit is like a prison. It also makes sense that the condition in negative time/space for a positive mind/body/spirit is also like a prison (Where only darkness will be experienced. . . A barrier is automatically formed.(68.7))

Now, from my viewpoint, I tend to think that Ra meant to say time/space in 70.7, for the negative time/space environment is more like a prison. After all, in the negative space/time environment, the positive m/b/s can still “experience and learn from other-selves” (68.7), although “the process of learning the accumulated lessons of love of self may be quite lengthy” (69.11)

Prior to discussing this topic, I thought that the use of time/space in 70.7 always made perfect sense, always viewing the darkness referred to in 68.7 as that prison. However, I don't think it would be illogical if Ra did intend to say space/time. We cannot know what Ra truly intended in using prison as an analogy. In prisons, inmates are truly limited in their freedoms and social interaction is extremely different from life outside of prison, but they still have the opportunity for experience and learning from other-selves, so long as they are not in solitary confinement. It is in a limiting and harsh environment, perhaps much like a positive being would experience in negative space/time.

I do feel there is one inconsistency with Ra's use of time/space. That is the fact that the mind/body/spirit complex is already in negative time/space. It does not seem logical to me for Ra to state that it is reluctant to allow the mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space when it is already there. fiatlux0 suggested Ra was not referring to the wanderer subject, which seems like a possible explanation, but I feel it is a less likely explanation. It does solve the problem though.

Then as you go one to point out, Ra went on to use time/space correctly in subsequent answers. Indicating a likelihood that they used it correctly in 70.7.

I am of the opinion that it will be impossible to completely untangle this confusion on our end. I feel any of the proposed possibilities presented here in this thread have a chance to be the explanation, but we cannot know for sure. Whether a footnote will be added is yet to be decided, and exactly how to word that footnote would be an extremely tricky endeavor. But this discussion certainly opens new understanding of these confusing passages.

Austin,

Thank you very much for the note, which relieves my concern and worry for sure, because the main reason for me to start this thread is the fact that I was told by one of editors that the time/space in 70.6/7 should be replaced by space/time, and I was not able to convince the editor that Don changed the words intentionally rather that misspoke them.

Since the text will not be changed in any cases, and we both agree what Don really meant, the main purpose of this thread has been fulfilled. The only remaining question in this thread is whether Ra meant to say time/space or not in 70.7.

You pointed out a very important fact I overlooked in the past and appreciate now; that is, the mind/body/spirit complex is already in negative time/space, so it is not logical to say that the higher self is reluctant to allow the mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space. Consequently, I have changed my position to agree with your viewpoint that Ra meant to say space/time here. But I am still not sure, and I agree with you that it will be impossible to completely untangle this confusion on our end.

Given Ra meant to say space/time in 70.7, it can be inferred that not only Ra was unaware of the intention of Don’s question, but Ra also was unaware of the wrong citation of Don, and thought that Don cited that citation in 69.11 correctly. This explanation can also be applied to 70.14 very well. But when it is applied to 70.6, I am still confused, because in Ra’s eyes, Don’s question became that: why the higher self is so reluctant for its past self to enter negative space/time that it is necessary for its past self to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back? and then Ra, without detecting this "illogical" question, answered that Don has answered his own query. This answer perplexes me a lot.

Anyway, although what Ra really meant is unclear, the related texts on the whole (in session 68, 69 & 70) about the displaced mind/body/spirit complex are clear and make sense. I believe it's possible for readers to grasp the thrust of Don’s questions and Ra’s answers about the displaced mind/body/spirit complex. So I will not keep pursuing this unsolved (and possibly unsolvable) question mentioned above, unless I happen to come up with some insight worth sharing in the future.

As to the footnote, I agree with you totally that it would be an extremely tricky endeavor. I only suggest, if the footnote will be added at last, only those things that we can make sure of be indicated.