Bring4th

Quote:6.11 Questioner: How did they come here?

Ra: They came through the process of harvest and were incarnated through the processes of incarnation from your higher spheres within this density.

Quote:69.13 Questioner: You said the higher self is reluctant to enter negative space/time. Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. The incarnative process involves being incarnated from time/space to space/time. This is correct.

Quote:21.6 Questioner: I see. Then no incarnation occurred before this master 75,000-year cycle of Maldek entities. Correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct in the sense of incarnation in third-density time/space.

21.7 Questioner: Were there any of these entities then incarnated in second density before the 75,000-year cycle?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. These particular entities were incarnate in time/space third density, that is, the so-called inner planes, undergoing the process of healing and approaching realization of their action.

Okay, so I am trying to understand the concept of incarnation as it is applied in the Ra Material but I am seeing some inconsistencies. At first I thought Ra's explanation of incarnation being a process of a time/space being being 'enfleshed' in space/time makes sense to me, but then I found these quotes talking about incarnation in time/space.

Has anyone else found any other explanation for what incarnation actually IS? They talk about entities incarnating from 'higher spheres' which I presume are higher sub-densities within our density but then say they incarnated in time/space, the inner planes. So does that mean incarnation isn't just lateral or from time/space to space/time but also includes those translations from one density to another density? Or is incarnation more to do with "activation" of the bodies, so can one "activate" say the yellow-ray body but do so in time/space rather than space/time? So if a higher density entity incarnates in to a lower density time/space, they can then incarnate 'again' in to space/time from there? This word needs some clarity I feel.

Any thoughts?

Found this bad boy:

Quote:48.7 Questioner: Thank you. I would like to take as an example an entity, at birth, who is roughly high on the seniority list for positive polarization and possible harvestability at the end of this cycle and follow a full cycle of his experience starting before his incarnation— which body is activated, process of becoming incarnate, the activation of the third-density physical body, process as the body moves through this density and is acted upon by catalyst, and then the process of death, and the activation of the various bodies so that we make a full circuit from a point prior to incarnation back around through incarnation and death and back to that position you might say in one cycle of incarnation in this density. Could you do that for me?

Ra: I am Ra. Your query is most distorted for it assumes that creations are alike. Each mind/body/spirit complex has its own patterns of activation and its own rhythms of awakening. The important thing for harvest is the harmonious balance between the various energy centers of the mind/body/spirit complex. This is to be noted as of relative import. We grasp the thrust of your query and will make a most general answer stressing the unimportance of such arbitrary generalizations.

The entity, before incarnation, dwells in the appropriate, shall we say, place in time/space. The true color type of this location will be dependent upon the entity’s needs. Those entities, for instance which, being Wanderers, have the green, blue, or indigo true-color core of mind/body/spirit complex will have rested therein.

Entrance into incarnation requires the investment or activation of the indigo-ray or etheric body for this is the form maker. The young or small physical mind/body/spirit complex has the seven energy centers potentiated before the birthing process. There are also analogs in time/space of these energy centers corresponding to the seven energy centers in each of the seven true-color densities. Thus in the microcosm exists all the experience that is prepared. It is as though the infant contains the universe.

The patterns of activation of an entity of high seniority will undoubtedly move with some rapidity to the green-ray level which is the springboard to primary blue. There is always some difficulty in penetrating blue primary energy for it requires that which your people have in great paucity; that is, honesty. Blue ray is the ray of free communication with self and with other-self. Having accepted that an harvestable or nearly harvestable entity will be working from this green-ray springboard one may then posit that the experiences in the remainder of the incarnation will be focused upon activation of the primary blue ray of freely given communication, of indigo ray, that of freely shared intelligent energy, and if possible, moving through this gateway, the penetration of violet-ray intelligent infinity. This may be seen to be manifested by a sense of the consecrate or hallowed nature of everyday creations and activities.

Upon the bodily complex death, as you call this transition, the entity will immediately, upon realization of its state, return to the indigo form-maker body and rest therein until the proper future placement is made.

Here we have the anomaly of harvest. In harvest the entity will then transfer its indigo body into violet-ray manifestation as seen in true-color yellow. This is for the purpose of gauging the harvestability of the entity. After this anomalous activity has been carefully completed, the entity will move into indigo body again and be placed in the correct true-color locus in space/time and time/space at which time the healings and learn/teachings necessary shall be completed and further incarnation needs determined.

Again, from the beginning to the quote to the end it is dubious whether or not incarnation is something that takes place going from time/space in to space/time or from higher density to lower density because at first they talk about it in the one way but the last bolded part talks about being placed in space/time AND time/space and then determining the need for more incarnations so.... I don't know.

This sheds a little bit of light on the concept of 'time/space incarnations'.

Quote:17.38 Questioner: Well, does each… does… this is difficult. Our physical plane: Are there seven sub-planes to what we call our physical plane here?

Ra: I am Ra. You are correct. This is difficult to understand. There are an infinite number of planes. In your particular space/time continuum distortion there are seven sub-planes of mind/body/spirit complexes. You will discover the vibrational nature of these seven planes as you pass through your experiential distortions, meeting other-selves of the various levels which correspond to the energy influx centers of the physical vehicle.

The invisible, or inner, third-density planes are inhabited by those who are not of body complex natures such as yours; that is, they do not collect about their spirit/mind complexes a chemical body. Nevertheless these entities are divided in what you may call an artificial dream within a dream into various levels. In the upper levels, desire to communicate knowledge back down to the outer planes of existence becomes less, due to the intensive learn/teaching which occurs upon these levels.

It is pretty evident that:

Quote:in the sense of incarnation in third-density time/space

Should read:

Quote:in the sense of incarnation in third-density space/time

This fits with Don's question/statement that "no incarnation occurred" and Ra answering "this is correct" given that incarnation is a space/time phenomenon.

As for:

Quote:These particular entities were incarnate in time/space third density, that is, the so-called inner planes,

The obvious issue here is the term "incarnate" (which translates from Latin to English as "enfleshed") and would make little sense in the context of time/space (unless, of course, you take extreme semantic liberties), not to mentioned it contradicts other quotes in the material (as shown in the first/main post). Ra is known for making little mistakes like that, unfortunately. The sentence would perhaps better read something like:

Quote:These particular entities were *stationed* in time/space third density, that is, the so-called inner planes,

The problem, as usual, is semantics (words/terms "open to interpretation").

Well, that was what I thought at first, but you don't /need/ to incarnate in order to be in time/space and then be visible in space/time. However I guess the issue is that most people lack the appropriate polarity?

Quote:60.23 Questioner: And there are no— are there any inner civilizations or entities living in these areas that are some of the other than physically incarnate who do come and materialize on the Earth’s surface at times?

Ra: I am Ra. As we have noted, there are some which do as you say. Further, there are some inner plane entities of this planet which prefer to do some materialization into third-density visible in these areas. There are also bases, shall we say, in these areas of those from elsewhere, both positive and negative. There are abandoned cities.

So an inner plane entity can clearly have a fair amount of power if it means they can potentially materialize in to space/time. Or maybe they can only materialize things and objects and not create a body for themselves? Some really DnD stuff here. Maybe they need 'inner plane machines' to do it?

I think I found the explanations I needed, I guess Ra is just a little flowery with the language sometimes.

Quote:In harvest the entity will then transfer its indigo body into violet-ray manifestation as seen in true-color yellow.

This is word-salad to me. Can anyone venture to clarify indigo body, violet-ray manifestation, and true-color yellow, as well as the relationships between these specified in the sentence above? Much obliged.

(04-16-2016, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:In harvest the entity will then transfer its indigo body into violet-ray manifestation as seen in true-color yellow.

This is word-salad to me.  Can anyone venture to clarify indigo body, violet-ray manifestation, and true-color yellow, as well as the relationships between these specified in the sentence above?  Much obliged.

It seems to me that...

True color-yellow = 3rd density
Violet-ray manifestation seen from true-color yellow = 3rd density, 7th sub-density
When you graduate from 3D to 4D, you go to the "8th sub-density" of 3D which is essentially a new density, in this case true-color green (4th density). This definition is somewhat loose. But you need to be at that level of vibration (3D, 7th sub-density) in order to make the quantum leap towards 4D. The violet-ray or indigo body in the 7th sub-density of 3D is basically the densest body of energy you can have in 3D, it seems. This is only my point of view, and could be totally wrong.

For further clarification, if you have read Dr. Michael Newton's books, you may remember level I, II, III, IV etc. souls. Those levels, in my understanding, represent sub-densities that entities have penetrated while in 3D. In my understanding, Newton's books uncover only facets of 3D inner planes (time/space), but not higher true-colors.

I also remember a quote from Ra that may help you to understand this:

Quote:Ra (51.8): I am Ra. This shall be the last full query of this working.

As we have noted, each of the true-color densities has the seven energy centers and each entity contains all this in potentiation. The activation, while in yellow ray, of violet-ray intelligent infinity is a passport to the next octave of experience. There are adepts who have penetrated many, many of the energy centers and several of the true colors.

I hope this proved helpful to you, Stranger

(04-16-2016, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:In harvest the entity will then transfer its indigo body into violet-ray manifestation as seen in true-color yellow.

This is word-salad to me.  Can anyone venture to clarify indigo body, violet-ray manifestation, and true-color yellow, as well as the relationships between these specified in the sentence above?  Much obliged.

True-color yellow is easy: it just refers to 3rd density as a whole (with its 7 color sub-divisions).

Indigo body seems to refer to the 6th sub-division of 3rd density. In other words, entity's connection to 6th/indigo density from within its own (3rd/yellow) density. Again, the problem here is the word "body" as it seems to be used pretty vaguely to refer to pretty much anything in space/time or time/space from 1st to 7th density, leading to much confusion.

Violet-ray manifestation seems to be similar/same as above: the 7th sub-division of 3rd density.

Reason why entity's "harvestability" must be assessed from 3D violet is probably because 3D violet would be right next to 4D red, and so it'd be kind of like comparing colors: if entity's 3D violet is close enough to 4D red in its coloration then entity may be harvested.

This is an oversimplification.

Somewhat related:

Quote:47.11 The first body which activates itself upon death is the “form-maker” or the indigo-ray body.

---

PS: redacted bits to avoid potential confusion.

I think we are always existing in time/space. I think we choose then to send forth a portion of ourselves to incarnate into space/time at various densities/loci. Our higher self exists in 6th density time/space and has a vantage point over all of its incarnations into the various sub-densities of space/time, and then the mind/body/spirit totality exists in 7th density outside of any time constructs.

Considering simultaneity, it is all happening at once. But incarnation into space/time allows us to experience, specifically, the passage of time and the experience of progression. I think time/space densities are not so much about progression but more about vibrational settling/layering.

I'm not sure if that helps, just some of my quick thoughts on the idea.

Hmm, so is that to say that in time/space there is no body or just no chemical body?

(04-16-2016, 01:44 PM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, so I am trying to understand the concept of incarnation as it is applied in the Ra Material but I am seeing some inconsistencies. At first I thought Ra's explanation of incarnation being a process of a time/space being being 'enfleshed' in space/time makes sense to me, but then I found these quotes talking about incarnation in time/space.

Has anyone else found any other explanation for what incarnation actually IS? They talk about entities incarnating from 'higher spheres' which I presume are higher sub-densities within our density but then say they incarnated in time/space, the inner planes. So does that mean incarnation isn't just lateral or from time/space to space/time but also includes those translations from one density to another density? Or is incarnation more to do with "activation" of the bodies, so can one "activate" say the yellow-ray body but do so in time/space rather than space/time? So if a higher density entity incarnates in to a lower density time/space, they can then incarnate 'again' in to space/time from there? This word needs some clarity I feel.

Any thoughts?

I have to agree with Ooo, my strong feeling is that Ra was essentially saying, "these beings were focused at 3rd density time/space."  To me, incarnation simply means: focused.  Wherever my consciousness is focused, or "anchored subconsciously" we might even say, that is where I am "incarnate".  If I were "unfocused", my consciousness would be merged with the One.  Focusing is an act of will, or an attraction of interest we might say.  

It is worth noting that when we die, we "unfocus" to a great degree (excluding divergent events like becoming a ghost for example).  We unfocus all the way back to our yellow ray-indigo manifestation, which to my understanding is a temporary merging back with our higher self (or at least, the portion of "true color indigo consciousness" invested in yellow ray experiential distortions -- a small branch, relatively speaking, of that which we consider to be our "higher self").  This is for the purpose of "life review" and understanding the fruits of our now terminated physical incarnation and ramifications it had on our karmic progression.  At which point, we are then "refocused" at the appropriate time/space level of consciousness for our development, whether that is time/space 3rd density: green ray or time/space 3rd density: yellow ray or whatever.

(04-16-2016, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:In harvest the entity will then transfer its indigo body into violet-ray manifestation as seen in true-color yellow.

This is word-salad to me.  Can anyone venture to clarify indigo body, violet-ray manifestation, and true-color yellow, as well as the relationships between these specified in the sentence above?  Much obliged.

My understanding is that "true color yellow" refers to 3rd density, whereas indigo represents the indigo sub density of 3rd density, and violet ray manifestation, in this context, also refers to 3rd density violet ray.

To translate that down to plain speak: during harvest, which occurs after death, we merge with the totality of true color yellow and appraise our consciousness development.  If the progression is deemed advanced enough we are allowed incarnation at the next density level.  The violet ray of any subdensity is best thought of as: unity as seen through the perspective of that particular densities "eyes".  So violet ray 3rd density is essentially a state of consciousness whereby we are looking at the whole of our 3rd density development, with all its nooks and crannies, and myriad nuances of interrelationships.  Basically, the balance of 3rd density energies as a unified whole.

And "indigo body" is simply the level of consciousness most would consider to be "the higher self".  Also synonymous with "the form maker".  But 3rd density indigo is the portion of that sixth density consciousness oriented towards the energies of yellow ray.  Another way we might describe it is: 3rd density as seen "through the eyes of the higher self".  This provides a perspective for the recently discarnate personality to understand their now terminated life experience.  Indigo ray is an analog for intelligent energy, being right next to violet ray, or unity, it derives a phenomenal amount of conscious awareness from its nearness to total unity.  Regardless of density, the rays are the rays.  I find it helps to think of them as "lenses for consciousness".  So for example, the blue ray of true color yellow is "blue ray as seen through the eyes of 3rd density" and so on etc.  The main difference between the consciousness of a density and the consciousness of a ray is simply that density represents the ray you are presently identified with, or anchored to, and through which you see and interpret the other rays.  Vehicles for consciousness in other words.

The purely physical level of each density is its red ray level, and the purely nonphysical level of each density is its violet ray level.  All the sub rays inbetween comprise the continuum of energies between physical and nonphysical for that particular density.  Red ray 3rd density is "physicality as seen through the eyes of yellow ray".  Essentially: the yellow ray chemical apparatus we are all incarnate in at this time.  Orange ray 3rd density is "lower astral 3rd density", or the emotional complex for 3rd density.  And so on etc.

(04-16-2016, 01:44 PM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm, so is that to say that in time/space there is no body or just no chemical body?

No chemical body, but they might still have some type of body, depending on the level of time/space on which they dwell.  For example, on the astral levels, beings will often have a thought-form body.  On the mental level, they might not have such a "tangible" bodily construct however.  It isn't even necessary to manifest a thought form body upon the astral, but most of the beings that inhabit that level do so by default because they aren't totally consciously in control of their subconscious habits of thought.  This is also why, for example, when you astral project, you often find yourself in a "body of sorts" but it is really just your habitual reconstruction of a thought form replica of your physical body.  It even often has clothes!  For some reason I always found that amusing.

Here's what Ra says about the different bodies and their correspondence to densities:

Quote:47.8 Questioner: In our esoteric literature numerous bodies are listed. I have here a list of the physical body, the etheric, the emotional, the astral, and the mental. Can you tell me if this listing is the proper number, and can you tell me the uses and purposes and effects, etc., of each of these or any other bodies that may be in our mind/body/spirit complex?

Ra: I am Ra. To answer your query fully would be the work of many sessions such as this one, for the interrelationships of the various bodies and each body’s effects in various situations is an enormous study. However, we shall begin by referring your minds back to the spectrum of true colors and the usage of this understanding in grasping the various densities of your octave.

We have the number seven repeated from the macrocosm to the microcosm in structure and experience. Therefore, it would only be expected that there would be seven basic bodies which we would perhaps be most lucid by stating as red-ray body, etc. However, we are aware that you wish to correspond these bodies mentioned with the color rays. This will be confusing, for various teachers have offered their teach/learning understanding in various terms. Thus one may name a subtle body one thing and another find a different name.

The red-ray body is your chemical body. However, it is not the body which you have as clothing in the physical. It is the unconstructed material of the body, the elemental body without form. This basic unformed material body is important to understand for there are healings which may be carried out by the simple understanding of the elements present in the physical vehicle.

The orange-ray body is the physical body complex. This body complex is still not the body you inhabit but rather the body formed without self-awareness, the body in the womb before the spirit/mind complex enters. This body may live without the inhabitation of the mind and spirit complexes. However, it seldom does so.

The yellow-ray body is your physical vehicle which you know of at this time and in which you experience catalyst. This body has the mind/body/spirit characteristics and is equal to the physical illusion, as you have called it.

The green-ray body is that body which may be seen in séance when what you call ectoplasm is furnished. This is a lighter body packed more densely with life. You may call this the astral body following some other teachings. Others have called this same body the etheric body. However, this is not correct in the sense that the etheric body is that body of gateway wherein intelligent energy is able to mold the mind/body/spirit complex.

The light body or blue-ray body may be called the devachanic body. There are many other names for this body especially in your so-called Indian Sutras or writings, for there are those among these peoples which have explored these regions and understand the various types of devachanic bodies. There are many, many types of bodies in each density, much like your own.

The indigo-ray body which we choose to call the etheric body is, as we have said, the gateway body. In this body form is substance and you may only see this body as that of light as it may mold itself as it desires.

The violet-ray body may perhaps be understood as what you might call the Buddha body or that body which is complete.

Each of these bodies has an effect upon your mind/body/spirit complex in your life beingness. The interrelationships, as we have said, are many and complex.

Perhaps one suggestion that may be indicated is this: The indigo-ray body may be used by the healer once the healer becomes able to place its consciousness in this etheric state. The violet-ray or Buddhic body is of equal efficacy to the healer for within it lies a sense of wholeness which is extremely close to unity with all that there is. These bodies are part of each entity and the proper use of them and understanding of them is, though far advanced from the standpoint of third-density harvest, nevertheless useful to the adept.

That is one my favorite sections of the Ra material.  In my opinion, while all those are accurate descriptions by Ra of the "true color bodies", in each case it was a description of the "red sub vibrational level" of each of those true colors.

1st density red ray body: elemental chemical body
2nd density red ray body: genetic body
3rd density red ray body: physical body with brain capable of supporting self awareness
4th density red ray body: ectoplasmic body
5th density red ray body: electromagnetic energy
6th density red ray body: even more rarified electromagnetic energy
7th density red ray body: the entire physical universe as a whole (that is to say, the collective universal electromagnetic energy that is the building blocks of physical matter)

They even give some interesting clues that this is the case in that section.  For one, the first 3 bodies described are clearly physical bodies, and they make no mention of now switching to "non physical bodies" after that point.  As such, there is no need to make the assumption from my perspective.  Also, when they reach the devachanic bodily description Ra even states: "There are many, many types of bodies in each density, much like your own."  This is an especially interesting thing to say.  If they weren't talking about physical bodies, why even bring that part up?  The differences of our 3rd density bodies are only physically deep.  Because after you are dead, the characteristics of the manifested "body" can change more or less willy nilly.

Anyway, that is my case for those being physical bodies Ra described.  The other sub bodies of each density are similar to their red ray counterparts but begin to lean in more "intangible" directions.

Another fact that is little often considered in respect to the physical and the nonphysical is that there are places "in between" on that continuum.  The words "space/time" and "time/space" are used by Ra to indicate a continuum with respect to consciousness being oriented towards one side or the other given its placement on that continuum.  But there are places where the orientation is more or less equal between them in my opinion.  To me I don't even think of it as time/space or space/time anymore I simply look at it as the ratio of the tangible (visible/physical) to intangible (invisible/metaphysical).  The more intangible, the closer to time it is, the more tangible the closer to space it is.

Anyway, food for thought.

(04-16-2016, 04:51 PM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm, so is that to say that in time/space there is no body or just no chemical body?

That depends on what your definition for "body" is. Generally speaking, a body is an organized/organic form (hence, organism) of a physical nature capable of metabolic and reproductive processes/functions. For example, early 2D unicellular microbes/biota such as the volvox or the radiolarians:





It is obvious that densities 2 through 6 utilize some sort of physical (space/time) body, from "chemical" to "light" (which are just the same, really—one just has to look into a microcosope as shown above to realize how the lines blur between "solid" matter and "subtle"). Now, whether 1D and 7D utilize some bodily structure is entirely debatable: both are of a formless/amorphous constitution without the need to feed (metabolize) or reproduce (sex). And as far as we can tell, these functions carry over all the way into 6th density as 6D entities still require to feed their vehicles (even if by merely "absorbing" light) and engage in sexual activities (i.e. "complete sexual fusion").

As to the "bodily" nature of time/space, we once again reach semantic difficulties. Based upon both first-hand personal experience and extensive study on third-party case reports (primarily from Robert Crookall, Sylvan Muldoon, Oliver Fox and others authors/researchers during the early 20th century—modern authors/researchers are much more "questionable" and not nearly as deep/careful as one may like), it is hard to say whether one has a "body" or not, since the time/space experience may fall under a multitude of categories:

• Some will describe an exact duplicate of their current/recent physical vehicle (with clothes and all! Who would have guessed you take your clothes with ya?!).
  
  
• Others will describe taking the shape of a more amorphous semi-luminous mist/fog with vague anthropomorphic features.
  
  
• Some others will describe taking the form of a ball of light or teardrop anywhere between the size of an orange and a watermelon.
  
  
• Yet others will describe no perceivable body at whilst having 360 degree vision.
  
  
• And to make matters even more interesting, others will describe an unclear mixture of the above!
  

So which one is it? In fact, are the above descriptions representative of a body... or the discarnate/disembodied mind? What about the spirit?

What is clear is that there is such a thing as a physical (space/time) body. Whether we call the time/space being a "body" is, quite unfortunately, open to interpretation due to the semantic complications of this verbal/lingual means of communication.

(04-16-2016, 05:08 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]It even often has clothes! For some reason I always found that amusing.

You beat me to it! I swear I hadn't read this before posting

Quote:Indigo ray is an analog for intelligent energy, being right next to violet ray, or unity,

Although aware of your present understanding/distortion that 7D equals the Logos, Creator, or Universe as a whole, consider this:

Quote:12.31 The violet-ray (...) body is of equal efficacy to the healer for within it lies a sense of wholeness which is extremely close to unity with all that there is.

i.e. not UNITY just yet

Quote:The purely physical level of each density is its red ray level, and the purely nonphysical level of each density is its violet ray level.

Quite perceptive. Before leaving now, I only ask you consider the relationship between 2D/orange and 6D/indigo, as 2D/orange is also quite the "form-maker" in its own right. Just observe the "explosion of life" and the mind-boggling variety of animal/plant body-plans that ensue therefrom over the course of billions of years. If one moves into 6D/indigo in time/space, this may lend a clue as to why Q'uo & Co. often state that 3D entities are likewise using a 2D/orange "monkey" vehicle whilst incarnate.

Thing is, one has to really look deep into a microscope to see past the giraffes, elephants, monkeys, dogs, cats, turtles and dolphins (all of these being very late/advanced 2D). What 2D really is, at its core, is simply the genetic/cellular structure—the space/time analog, in a sense, of 6D/indigo in time/space.

Food for further thought.

Well, the "harvest" from the previous Octave were the concepts of the Matrix, Potentiator and the Significator, as well as the understanding of the efficiency of experience through Mind, Body and Spirit. This suggests to me that these concepts are fairly inherent in all experience, but we have to remember that it is the Creator which experiences through Mind, Body and Spirit.

However, it appears to me that the Creator is formless and only appears to be embodied in the focal point we know as the Logos. It is ourselves as a Logos (sub-logoi currently) which is within ourselves as that which "embodies" or shall we say, experiences time/space and space/time. At first I thought everything and every point of space and time was the same essentially, but I think that there is actually only one point and all others are holographic images within it.

So, I think it appears to me maybe the better way to approach describing incarnation is to attempt to establish the difference in conditions between seemingly 'disembodied' states and states which occur within a bodily form. To me this bridges the gap between the ideas of incarnation where it is more the process of shifting the focus of one's being in to another vibrational level entirely, as opposed to a projection of the mind/spirit. So an entity which exists in a light, sixth density body coming down in to a lower density body would essentially be incarnating upon that lower plane and then they would experience the corresponding space/time. From that point, while incarnate in a lower density time/space, they can incarnate then in to space/time.

It's just a dream within a dream within a dream. I think I get it now. Incarnation is, I think, the process of activation of the bodies which is the movement of the "self" which is the focus of the Logos which the M/B/S Complex Totality is united with. The self is the focus and it moves first with guidance and guardianship until eventually it moves entirely on its own. By move, I mean direct its focus. So I think whenever the self is translated to a lower density (whereas moving upwards is "graduation") it is incarnation, which is then completed in the then incarnation and manifestation in to space/time. When the self is already focused in a particular density then you only do the latter part. You'd be incarnating twice. Once you have incarnated from higher density to lower you are then focused there, so that is your "home point", and then you incarnate in to the space/time equivalent of the time/space you have moved in to.

From Ra's perspective I think any change of density, particularly in to 'lower' ones, would necessitate incarnation and so could be construed as the same thing. However, again, it requires a change in activation of body. Higher density beings can easily just project themselves or materialize but actual translation in to another density requires incarnation I think. By that same token, I think that once a Wanderer eventually finishes wandering the lower densities they eventually come back to their original state and have the same kind of 'life review' as you would have after a 'regular' incarnative experience, except it would be focused on all the lives that had been lived.

(04-16-2016, 06:19 PM)Illamasqua Wrote: [ -> ]i.e. not UNITY just yet

Well, you are right of course. You are just being more specific than my general commentary reflected.  It would have been more accurate for me to say: as unified as an illusory lower density perspective can support.  Clearly, no lower density perspective will be able to perfectly match the reality of true unity/infinity.  

In fact I wouldn't even consider 7th density violet ray to be TOTAL unity.  I would reserve that distinction to the 8th level, personally.

And as for the genetic body being a kind of form maker (albeit more of a "physical one") I can certainly see your train of thought there.

(I haven't read every post; apologies for redundancy if someone posted similar thoughts)

I think in the first quotes you provided (session 21) where Ra is referring to the Maldek entities incarnate in 3rd density time/space, they are using the word "incarnate" because no word exists for the concept they are referring to. The body incarnate is not a chemical complex, but a different type of body that is incarnate in time/space.

I believe this is the same problem they have when referring to other concepts that the various Earth languages just don't have words for. To use a tired analogy, it's like trying to explain to someone who has never seen or heard of snow before what snow is. Or trying to describe what the color blue looks like to someone who has never seen that color before.

To phrase this another way, they are using the word incarnate for both space/time and time/space when really there should be a different word for incarnation into time/space. While they may be different concepts, they are similar enough from Ra's perspective to just substitute the word "incarnate" for both.

I view time/space or inner planes of 3rd density (and probably all other densities) as a sort of "hopper" (or "dugout" to borrow a baseball analogy) of the 'actual' of 3rd density, which is space/time. The spirit/mind complex still needs a focus (body) to sort things out, so it incarnates a body in time/space. Once it get's stuff sorted out (ie, what kind of major catalyst it needs), it incarnates into a space/time chemical 3D vehicle.

Further support that you have a body in time/space:

Quote:30.3 Questioner: Upon our physical death, as we call it, from this particular density and this particular incarnative experience, we lose this chemical body. Immediately after the loss of this chemical body do we maintain a different type of body? Is there still a mind/body/spirit complex at that point?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. The mind/body/spirit complex is quite intact; the physical body complex you now associate with the term body being but manifestation of a more dense and intelligently informed and powerful body complex.

Even further support:

Quote:30.2 Wrote:
QUESTIONER: Thank you. Would you define mind, body, and spirit separately?

RA: I am Ra. These terms are all simplistic descriptive terms which equal a complex of energy focuses; the body, as you call it, being the material of the density which you experience at a given space/time or time/space; this complex of materials being available for distortions of what you would call physical manifestation.

The mind is a complex which reflects the inpourings of the spirit and the up-pourings of the body complex. It contains what you know as feelings, emotions, and intellectual thoughts in its more conscious complexities. Moving further down the tree of mind we see the intuition which is of the nature of the mind more in contact or in tune with the total beingness complex. Moving down to the roots of mind we find the progression of consciousness which gradually turns from the personal to the racial memory, to the cosmic influxes, and thus becomes a direct contactor of that shuttle which we call the spirit complex.

This spirit complex is the channel whereby the inpourings from all of the various universal, planetary, and personal inpourings may be funneled into the roots of consciousness and whereby consciousness may be funneled to the gateway of intelligent infinity through the balanced intelligent energy of body and mind.

You will see by this series of definitive statements that mind, body, and spirit are inextricably intertwined and cannot continue, one without the other. Thus we refer to the mind/body/spirit complex rather than attempting to deal with them separately, for the work, shall we say, that you do during your experiences is done through the interaction of these three components, not through any one.

I don't think you can exist (at least this octave anyways) without some sort of body complex constructed from the material of the current density of space/time OR time/space.

I agree that there is a semantic issue with the limitations of the English language however I also like to peruse the thought that Ra is aware of this limitation and so uses words which approach the concepts as closely as possible. Thus I think when Ra used the word "incarnation" it was actually referring to a more basic mechanic which we simply do not have terminology for but I feel that although time/space is invisible to us here in space/time, it is not invisible to itself and it is just as complex as space/time, as Ra says.

However, it seems that one can only move in to space/time from the adjacent time/space. We do not have any words to describe the difference between adjacent movement of the entity from time/space to space time and the movement of the entity from a higher density time/space in to a lower density time/space, but I can conceive of both of these under the guise of the word "incarnation".

So is what you are curious about the is Wandering process? As in "going backwards" in densities? Because as you mentioned when Ra came to Earth they "materialized" as golden beings, because the higher densities choose to be invisible to us. I think you can choose to incarnate as a Wanderer from your, say, 6th density locus - and I don't think all Wanderers even necessarily undergo a life review between lifetimes, especially if they were efficient with catalyst. Ra talks about ascending the steps of light after death, which I assume means you head back to the density from whence you came (wanderer) or towards the vibrational quality you achieved - or, if you got too caught up in the maelstrom, you hit a brick wall at some point and your guides come help you through it, and then you choose from that point to go forwards (ascend) or backwards (reincarnate into 3D).

I think a 6th density Wanderer does still actually partake in the life review, but most likely from their 6th density vantage point after death.

So I guess I don't believe that you have to move into the time/space and reside there before you can move into the space/time. I mean maybe technically for a moment, or even maybe my necessity of incarnation into the lower densities, but I think after death you aren't "stuck" in 3D time/space doing life reviews with your guides you have Wanderered. I still think this is "incarnation".

I think of it really as like creating an avatar on a new world. I think once you reach 3D you gain this ability and once you reach 4D you gain more abilities with your ability to incarnate. Of course you still have to go through the process of "unlocking" these abilities when you incarnate, because that's the game. If you get too caught up, or "regress", after death, you may have some more quests to unlock some abilities that your forfeited with your choices in 3D.

I think the process is really flexible. Ra says so, and says "too much order is negative". So I don't think it's a really that structured of a thing.

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. The lobes of your physical complex brain are alike in their use of weak electrical energy. The entity ruled by intuition and impulse is equal to the entity governed by rational analysis when polarity is considered. The lobes may both be used for service to self or service to others. It may seem that the rational or analytical mind might have more of a possibility of successfully pursuing the negative orientation due to the fact that, in our understanding, too much order is by its essence negative. However, this same ability to structure abstract concepts and to analyze experiential data may be the key to rapid positive polarization. It may be said that those whose analytical capacities are predominant have somewhat more to work with in polarizing.

From my understanding, Space/Time is the physical reality we experience in 3rd density and Time/space is the metaphysical or inner planes of 3rd density. We incarnate into Time/space or perhaps better said would be our awareness goes into time/space at the indigo level, i would assume this to be the 6th sub density of 3rd density and then an physical incarnation is chosen or the entity remains in the innerplanes of time/space.

Those who remain in time/space are developing towards 4th density in a different or more dreamlike illusion and those who incarnate physically are developing towards 4th density in the physical sense.

I correspond Space/time as the conscious mind and Time/space as the unconscious mind. Perhaps i would theorize that like the physical space/time entity is trying to access the unconsciousness to begin the magical workings the time/space entity may be trying to access the physical or space/time planes. The adept in space/time can access time/space and the adept in time/space can access space/time to materialize as it pleases as they reach the highest suboctave of 3rd density.

This is just a theory though. But it seems to make some sense based upon the material Ra has given.

What i find really interesting though is how much of the occult material in the world is working with the suboctave of 3rd density and how much of it is related to the greater octave cycle. As i understand it we need to activate the first 4 energy centers which correspond to the first four planes in the suboctave of 3rd density and the 3 higher centers are extra credit, or a head start in the 4th density lessons. However it makes me wonder that if some of the adepts of the east are said to dematerialize the physical body in light at the time of death such as in Buddhism surely all of that work is not simply to go onto forth density but rather the completion of the greater octave cycle with 3rd density?