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I have been asked to compare and contrast the so-called Great Work of G. I. Gurdjieff with the channeled material from Ra that we call The Law of One. I humbly accept this honor/duty to shed some light on two teachings I love.
For the benefit of the gentle reader who may not have found the other thread of this forum discussing the one called Georges and his possible polarities in the service to our infinite creator, please allow me this brief excerpt from that thread to begin.
    Mr. Gurdjieff was born and grew up under harsh conditions in the late 1800s in a war riddled part of Caucasia. He had a loving family and an Orthodox Christian upbringing. As a very young man he was independent enough to travel on his own, by foot to many parts of Eurasia. During this time he met with and learned from a few of the remaining groups that were originally called the Essenes. (Edgar Cayce reported that it was the Essenes who raised the young Jesus of Nazareth.)
Later in life, Gurdjieff struggled to support dozens of people who were moving as refugees after the horrific takedown of the Tsar of Russia and his family. He made money buying and selling rugs and art, teaching sacred dance, and earlier, by performing hypnosis to help alcoholics recover and repairing small machines. He worked tirelessly, and always with the intent to help others who wished for a better understanding of their human potential.

The central core of this work is that we as we are ... due to unfortunate circumstances beyond our control and established long, long ago in our past  … we do not easily and automatically "transform" (the Ra equivalent of graduate). The chances of us doing so, automatically without great effort are small. Correspondingly, I calculate the "harmonious evolution" of the Ra group on Venus as .169 or thereabouts, and the harvest here on Earth is said to be thinner than that. For many here it is not exactly their first "great cycle", either.  
Gurdjieff’s shocking statement to the people of his time was “You say man has an eternal soul, well I say man does not have a soul, but he can acquire one.” The Ra statement is equally as shocking for people of our time that believe in a unique eternal human soul, which is roughly: Not only does each human have a soul, but also each mosquito and each blade of grass has a soul- not only that the very carbon atoms and the winds that stir them have a soul as well. What Gurdjieff refers to here, is of course the graduated, or “harvested" soul. Likewise said in the material we remain virtually unaware of our integrated self.
The terminology of The Work is amazingly similar, for example, OMNI-LOVING, All-COMMON, UNI-BEING, CREATOR ENDLESSNESS and THE ONE INTELLIGENT, INFINITE CREATOR. Even in the establishment of a logos,The Work is consistent. Ra says that we are subjected to a "veil of forgetting" and The Work says "self remembering" is crucial, moreover, it is based on the higher aspects of our selves (of which we are unaware for the most part) influencing the lower parts of our selves. Amazingly similar to the "Higher Self" of the Ra Material. The lifespan of the human in G's cosmology is also much, much shorter than it used to be long ago.
Gurdjieff recognized something about human behavior within a small community trying to live in harmony that caused a certain kind of friction which could be used to help along this process of transformation. Ra refers to this friction as catalyst. Although Ra gave to us a system for refining the soul to assist in graduation, sadly that information was said to be so distorted by humans that they felt a need (call it desire if you desire) to return to Earth from the sixth dimension to clarify and make amends. Mr. Gurdjieff's alter ego "Beelzebub" had to spend some time away from his home "star system" (also classifying them differently than common astronomy), after having indulged in a minor "youthful transgression". (This in the 1940's).
Similarly to the gifts from Ra in ancient Egypt, The Work of Gurdjieff was also distorted. Well in advance G. knew this would happen and humorously named his allegory's character after a devil. Nearly indistinguishable from the Ra material isThe Work's painstaking measures to describe a set of distortions of the One, that infinitely separate into the octave of dimensions.
While the Ra material may be useful for the adept seeking either a positive or negative path, the true "work" of Gurdjieff is only useful to those on a positive path, as the vital key to its process is the generation of a kind of energy, through what he called "being Parktdlog duty": described as both "conscious labor and intentional suffering" and "bearing the unpleasant manifestations of others". These terms require a reminder that everyone suffers and labors with catalyst - and when done consciously and intentionally it can help create a special kind of substance in the body that anoints (Greek: Chrios ) and develops what are called the "higher-being bodies". Starkly aligned with the concepts discussed in the Ra material: the fourth and fifth dimensional being forms.  
As prerequisite to The Work, the individual needs to be “a good householder”. This means roughly that one’s family, and domestic business is maintained and that they are sound of mind. For a time  G. referred to this undertaking as the “fourth way”- a term which was latched onto by his most famous student Pyotor Ouspensky and remains to this day an anathema. To avoid the human tendency to create icons out of terms, Gurdjieff would often change his terminology. He spoke several languages, but made always a great effort to communicate in English. The original concept was: the first way was the fakir, who could overcome the body, the second was the the monk, who could overcome the emotions, and the third, the yogi who could overcome the mind. With Gurdjieff’s revolutionary method, women could openly participate in the spiritual transformation process, a landmark for our written history.
The Work states that the wish for this transformation must be imperative and acted upon; a sense of urgency is conveyed by language such as “the terror of the situation”. Ra speaks of urgent scenarios also, involving a pole shift, negative wanderers and planets, weather manipulation, underground bases, and additionally, a "harvest" which would occur in thirty (three - oh) years, and so on.
Both G. and Ra spoke of very, very ancient civilizations and their knowledge as being quite advanced from our own. The Work details two (2) other, great ages. Ra spoke of chakras, or energy complexes -but The Work was attempting to develop a different language, so the term "centers" was used. For example, the "Higher Emotional Center" parallels the "Green Ray". The three lower centers of The Work functioned automatically - up to a point, like the red, orange and yellow rays - but to get beyond that point (like the progression of the notes Do-Re-Mi- on the musical scale)- the spiritual development a level of conscious awareness needs to be present, which connects the lower to the higher. A second shock is needed then within the same process, in order to coat and develop the "Higher Intellectual Center" (Si-Do). This is an excellent fit with the words of Ra that "understanding" was not for us humans in the third density.

Ra's imperative was expressed in terms of "adepts" and "graduation". In The Work it is set forth at the beginning: In each moment we have we the possibility to recall our deepest wish that we may be able to transform. Ra says the struggle of 51% STO path equals the difficulty of 95% STS (with a thumb on the STO scale). Nonetheless, a graduation of 17% of us would be "super sweet", minus all of the dual bodies and wanderers (Brothers And Sisters Of Sorrow  Sad   (The odds aren't good- I mean there are people heroically helping others all over the world- so with hundreds -no thousands of lives in one's history, the question raised by the Ra Material is: Are we STO enough to be acceptable for entry into a more dense experience of life?
The term "The Work" partly refers to G.'s attempt to show how difficult it can be to genuinely develop a community (his held together until the end of his life and even afterwards for a short time through others who used his ideas to aid in their unique way of polarizing, as is our honor/duty in this plane of our creator oneness.) It also remains in the beautiful dance movements he choreographed, which are still performed, and in the music he composed.  Currently in print are a series of books that he wrote and completed after nearly being killed in a traumatic car accident several years before he finally died in 1949.
There is a very interesting, though quite possibly transient thread in this forum where a discussion ensues as to whether or not Mr. G. I. Gurdjieff was STS or STO, I hope that we will find apt thoughts quite ripe for posting there.
Pssst, Herald. It's impossible for anyone to remove posts here aside from moderators.

BTW, I did want to address one thing in your Ra summary:

Quote:Ra's imperative was expressed in terms of "adepts" and "graduation". In The Work it is set forth at the beginning: In each moment we have we the possibility to recall our deepest wish that we may be able to transform. Ra says the struggle of 51% STO path equals the difficulty of 95% STS (with a thumb on the STO scale). Nonetheless, a graduation of 17% of us would be "super sweet", minus all of the dual bodies and wanderers (Brothers And Sisters Of Sorrow Sad (The odds aren't good- I mean there are people heroically helping others all over the world- so with hundreds -no thousands of lives in one's history, the question raised by the Ra Material is: Are we STO enough to be acceptable for entry into a more dense experience of life?

It's not about "acceptability," it's about learning and growing. The need to polarize -one way or the other- before being able to exist on the 4th Density plane is as fundamental and unalterable as the need to learn algebra before learning calculus, or to learn to speak before learning to write. Or even the need to go through puberty before being able to procreate. We're talking true prerequisites here.

And every entity learns and grows at different rates. Some faster, some slower. When time is effectively infinite, it truly doesn't matter how long it takes. Whether a particular entity is going to be ready for Harvest this time around, or they end up going through another cycle of incarnations before it happens, is not any sort of judgement regarding them or their character. This isn't like the Christian Heaven, where you're supposedly denied entry for not being "good" enough.

Either a third-density entity has accumulated enough self-awareness and willfully-directed personal energies that they successfully polarized, or they haven't. That's the criterion. And if they haven't, they will when they're ready.
(08-11-2016, 02:38 PM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: [ -> ]Pssst, Herald.  It's impossible for anyone to remove posts here aside from moderators.

BTW, I did want to address one thing in your Ra summary:


Quote:Ra's imperative was expressed in terms of "adepts" and "graduation". In The Work it is set forth at the beginning: In each moment we have we the possibility to recall our deepest wish that we may be able to transform. Ra says the struggle of 51% STO path equals the difficulty of 95% STS (with a thumb on the STO scale). Nonetheless, a graduation of 17% of us would be "super sweet", minus all of the dual bodies and wanderers (Brothers And Sisters Of Sorrow  Sad   (The odds aren't good- I mean there are people heroically helping others all over the world- so with hundreds -no thousands of lives in one's history, the question raised by the Ra Material is: Are we STO enough to be acceptable for entry into a more dense experience of life?

It's not about "acceptability," it's about learning and growing.  The need to polarize -one way or the other- before being able to exist on the 4th Density plane is as fundamental and unalterable as the need to learn algebra before learning calculus, or to learn to speak before learning to write.   Or even the need to go through puberty before being able to procreate.  We're talking true prerequisites here.

And every entity learns and grows at different rates.  Some faster, some slower.  When time is effectively infinite, it truly doesn't matter how long it takes.  Whether a particular entity is going to be ready for Harvest this time around, or they end up going through another cycle of incarnations before it happens, is not any sort of judgement regarding them or their character.  This isn't like the Christian Heaven, where you're supposedly denied entry for not being "good" enough.  

Either a third-density entity has accumulated enough self-awareness and willfully-directed personal energies that they successfully polarized, or they haven't.  That's the criterion.  And if they haven't, they will when they're ready.

Yes, This is a good point. If you notice in what you call the "Ra summary", I note in the area you quote with bold that it is a question raised by the Ra Material..
Certainly though we can allow that the concept of "Graduation" implies acceptability to some form of standard. Would the gardener harvest the un-acceptable fruits?
Your question though, seems to imply that graduation is a function of time, or learning and growing. I will boldly state here my perspective on The Material: there is only one standard for the graduation from 3 D and that is polarizing.
May you sense the goodwill I send your way Smile . Thank you for responding to my post.
(08-11-2016, 06:15 PM)herald Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, This is a good point. If you notice in what you call the "Ra summary", I note in the area you quote with bold that it is a question raised by the Ra Material..
Certainly though we can allow that the concept of "Graduation" implies acceptability to some form of standard. Would the gardener harvest the un-acceptable fruits?
Your question though, seems to imply that graduation is a function of time, or learning and growing. I will boldly state here my perspective on The Material: there is only one standard for the graduation from 3 D and that is polarizing.
May you sense the goodwill I send your way Smile . Thank you for responding to my post.

Surely but polarity is a natural aspect of the self as beings of love/light light/love. Free will is the sole thing that limits or allows harvestability, the Higher Self accepted/chose the parameters within which it will move through the densities to move back to itself but knows not the way or manner it will take to do so.

More than learning, it is a matter of finding yourself. You either allow yourself to gravitate back to yourself, or you resist doing so until you do anyway.

Quote:36.7 Questioner: In that case my higher self would, shall we say, have a very large advantage in knowing precisely what was needed since it would know what… as far as I am concerned, what was going to happen. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect, in that this would be an abrogation of free will. The higher self aspect is aware of the lessons learned through the sixth density. The progress rate is fairly well understood. The choices which must be made to achieve the higher self as it is are in the provenance of the mind/body/spirit complex itself.

Thus the higher self is like the map in which the destination is known; the roads are very well known, these roads being designed by intelligent infinity working through intelligent energy. However, the higher self aspect can program only for the lessons and certain predisposing limitations if it wishes. The remainder is completely the free choice of each entity. There is the perfect balance between the known and the unknown.
(08-11-2016, 07:29 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2016, 06:15 PM)herald Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, This is a good point. If you notice in what you call the "Ra summary", I note in the area you quote with bold that it is a question raised by the Ra Material..
Certainly though we can allow that the concept of "Graduation" implies acceptability to some form of standard. Would the gardener harvest the un-acceptable fruits?
Your question though, seems to imply that graduation is a function of time, or learning and growing. I will boldly state here my perspective on The Material: there is only one standard for the graduation from 3 D and that is polarizing.
May you sense the goodwill I send your way Smile . Thank you for responding to my post.

Surely but polarity is a natural aspect of the self as beings of love/light light/love. Free will is the sole thing that limits or allows harvestability, the Higher Self accepted/chose the parameters within which it will move through the densities to move back to itself but knows not the way or manner it will take to do so.

More than learning, it is a matter of finding yourself. You either allow yourself to gravitate back to yourself, or you resist doing so until you do anyway.





Quote:36.7 Questioner: In that case my higher self would, shall we say, have a very large advantage in knowing precisely what was needed since it would know what… as far as I am concerned, what was going to happen. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect, in that this would be an abrogation of free will. The higher self aspect is aware of the lessons learned through the sixth density. The progress rate is fairly well understood. The choices which must be made to achieve the higher self as it is are in the provenance of the mind/body/spirit complex itself.

Thus the higher self is like the map in which the destination is known; the roads are very well known, these roads being designed by intelligent infinity working through intelligent energy. However, the higher self aspect can program only for the lessons and certain predisposing limitations if it wishes. The remainder is completely the free choice of each entity. There is the perfect balance between the known and the unknown.
Oh yeah!  Here I agree with your statements entirely. Smile  It is an aspect worthy of investigation, however, that " polarity is a natural aspect of the self as beings of love/light light/love "... Consider this: is it not natural for a salmon to swim upstream to mate? Yet for each hundred salmon only two will survive the journey...  
(08-11-2016, 07:53 PM)herald Wrote: [ -> ]Oh yeah!  Here I agree with your statements entirely. Smile  It is an aspect worthy of investigation, however, that " polarity is a natural aspect of the self as beings of love/light light/love "... Consider this: is it not natural for a salmon to swim upstream to mate? Yet for each hundred salmon only two will survive the journey...  

Looking at the mind, there is loss of the mind complex upon death that is inevitable whether harvestable or not. We all harvest into something newer, whatever the density, and all harvest move toward one destination.
I think you're being a little frivolous with the word 'harvest', personally, since through your many uses it seems to have little more definition than 'transformation' in which I will disagree that that is analogous to 'harvest' and 'graduation' as used in the context of the Ra Material.

For one, Ra states the only ones who 'self-harvest' are those of high enough negative polarity, otherwise there are assisting 'harvesters' which partake in and protect the process. They distinctly tall about Harvest as being related to the 'graduation' across densities. They specifically state the time of Harvest 'strikes as a clock upon the hour', suggesting it is more of a certain window in time where particular events happen. The only way around this window is to polarize to the extreme negative. Otherwise, you wait.

So, I do not agree that every death is a 'harvest', that is a nice poetic idea, but is not at all akin to the context expressed in the Ra Material.

I think you are in some way trying to diminish the significance of any sort of 'direction', perhaps because you yourself desire to be unfettered? I do think the Will is paramount to all transformation of self, but after much study and practice I have concluded that most people severely underestimate the difficulties of actually doing so.

I see a lot of talk, lots of neat philosophy, but very little actual self-transformation. People like to talk about transcendence and transformation but they also do not like change. When I do see genuine transformation in someone it is quite magnificent.
Aion.
Thanks for commenting on my post and for being the first person in twenty years who has said that I am anything near "frivolous" when it comes to my philosophy. So I am laughing internally as I write, at the thought of for once being the "easy-going spiritualist". My constant reminder is that .169 was an "harmonious harvest", and ours seemed on course to be alarmingly thin from my impression of the Ra Material.
I love the Gurdjieff Work mostly for its sense of urgency and sincerity. I have been trying to communicate with others on the Ra material something that I wish to understand based on the comparison of these two sources of genuine teaching.
I looked up self-harvest and did not find the area to which you refer in stating:
     
         the only ones who 'self-harvest' are those of high enough negative polarity, otherwise there are assisting 'harvesters'

I know about the three examples of negative self-harvest, but I think its  also possible to "graduate" before harvest... "harvestable", you might say. In this state one may be able to sustain being and memory of self without the yellow ray activation. Here is perhaps what the yogis refer to as no longer needing the "Wheel of Karma". It is my impression that if this is your 4D home planet, then absolutely you would want to stick around it and maybe even incarnate now and again to help a student or a group of beings turning towards the path of service to others.

Not only, Aion, do I also as you say "not agree that every death is a 'harvest"-  I deeply agree with the concepts of Gurdjieff that if a man is not consciously awake (as opposed to our normal state of being unconsciously awake and able to function in an automatic way based on a regular system of shocks  from our life circumstances) when he performs these so-called acts of service to others then is does not count as what he called “conscious labor” or in different words an act of love.  

But I further believe it is only with what Gurdjieff calls self-remembering - but Ra calls "love". (Love sounds better, I know- but this post is about contrast as well, so perhaps to actually participate in the true business of "love” of self or others, one must be conscious- and not acting from automatic state).

Consider this: What if when I for example… open the door for someone, or prepare a meal for my family-  am utterly lost in my own thoughts as I do . . . is this  what Ra refers to as using the green ray of love, or could it actually be perhaps a skillful command of the yellow ray of relationship of self to other. Inasmuch as I wish to consider myself a good and upright person is not my labor also coming back to benefit me? I submit that there is a bit missing here that has to do with the self disciplined awareness.

May you sense the intention of service in my words.  
Yes I will agree that one may certainly be 'harvesters' long before the actual 'harvesters' as it were. I quite agree with your assessment, and I suppose Gurdjieffs, as to the consciousness necessary for a willed act to be a intentional act of love and service. I believe this is parallel with the idea of polarity as being generated intentionally in the sense that doing something unconsciously or without deliberate intention is not necessarily polarizing in any meaningful way.

I, personally, do not feel that 'you reap what you sow' necessarily means that benefits are expected. However, for me life is like music. All the things you choose, thoughts and the like are the different notes and dynamics you are playing with. So, after playing a certain note or certain dynamic so many times you begin to get to know it and expect a certain feeling from it. I think that the dedication to being of service to gain polarity generates a certain sense of 'knowing' whereby you have learned to 'jam' or improvise with whatever has come your way.

The notes are always there. Every situation has potential pros and cons. It is how you play those notes that determines the mood of the melody and that is all it really is. You improvise as you follow the seeming 'leitmotif' of your life. A musician who plays a lot and learns the nature of theory begins to learn where they are wherever they are playing. Yet some musicians can play amazingly without any of that knowledge, they feel.

I think the kind of knowledge that Ra and Gurdjieffs expound is like music theory. It helps you to understand and recognize the patterns within the experience you are having so you can make conscious choices, in otherwords giving you an active role in the 'writing' the song that is your life rather than purely just playing what is in front of you. Hence why I think 'breaking normal modes of thought' and 'creativity' are so impressed as being fundamental to the freedom of the consciousness.
Interestingly, Gurdjieff is mentioned a couple times by Aaron in his analogies within the Aaron/Q'uo dialogue sessions.

Like this one for example: http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is...303_2.aspx
Aaron Wrote:...There is a story told about a spiritual teacher named Gurdjieff. This Gurdjieff had a spiritual community in France; and living in that community was a man that was intensely disliked by all, including himself. He was slovenly in his personal habits. He was rude and abusive to others. He did not do his share of the work. Finally, feeling the dislike that surrounded him, he packed up and left. Gurdjieff went after him and begged him to come back. The man said, “No,” at which point Gurdjieff offered to pay him to come back. The people in the community were aghast. They said, “How can you bring him back?” Gurdjieff said to them, “He is the yeast for the bread. How can you learn about compassion and forgiveness when you live here in a community of such perfect harmony—beyond this one man—that you have nothing to be compassionate about, nothing to forgive? You need him to help you learn compassion.”...
 
(08-17-2016, 08:53 PM)herald Wrote: [ -> ]Aion.
Thanks for commenting on my post and for being the first person in twenty years who has said that I am anything near "frivolous" when it comes to my philosophy. So I am laughing internally as I write, at the thought of for once being the "easy-going spiritualist". My constant reminder is that .169 was an "harmonious harvest", and ours seemed on course to be alarmingly thin from my impression of the Ra Material.
I love the Gurdjieff Work mostly for its sense of urgency and sincerity. I have been trying to communicate with others on the Ra material something that I wish to understand based on the comparison of these two sources of genuine teaching.
I looked up self-harvest and did not find the area to which you refer in stating:
     
         the only ones who 'self-harvest' are those of high enough negative polarity, otherwise there are assisting 'harvesters'

I know about the three examples of negative self-harvest, but I think its  also possible to "graduate" before harvest... "harvestable", you might say. In this state one may be able to sustain being and memory of self without the yellow ray activation. Here is perhaps what the yogis refer to as no longer needing the "Wheel of Karma". It is my impression that if this is your 4D home planet, then absolutely you would want to stick around it and maybe even incarnate now and again to help a student or a group of beings turning towards the path of service to others.

Not only, Aion, do I also as you say "not agree that every death is a 'harvest"-  I deeply agree with the concepts of Gurdjieff that if a man is not consciously awake (as opposed to our normal state of being unconsciously awake and able to function in an automatic way based on a regular system of shocks  from our life circumstances) when he performs these so-called acts of service to others then is does not count as what he called “conscious labor” or in different words an act of love.  

But I further believe it is only with what Gurdjieff calls self-remembering - but Ra calls "love". (Love sounds better, I know- but this post is about contrast as well, so perhaps to actually participate in the true business of "love” of self or others, one must be conscious- and not acting from automatic state).

Consider this: What if when I for example… open the door for someone, or prepare a meal for my family-  am utterly lost in my own thoughts as I do . . . is this  what Ra refers to as using the green ray of love, or could it actually be perhaps a skillful command of the yellow ray of relationship of self to other. Inasmuch as I wish to consider myself a good and upright person is not my labor also coming back to benefit me? I submit that there is a bit missing here that has to do with the self disciplined awareness.

May you sense the intention of service in my words.  

Here are the quotes you are looking for:

Quote:15.15 Questioner: I don’t mean to ask the same question twice, but there are some areas I consider so important that greater understanding may be obtained by possible restatement in other words. I thank you very much for your patience. Yesterday, you also mentioned that when there was no harvest at the end of the last 25,000-year period, “there were harvestable entities who shall choose the manner of their entrance into the fourth density.” Can you tell me what you mean by how “they will choose the manner of their entrance into the fourth density?”

Ra: I am Ra. These shepherds, or, as some have called them, the “Elder Race,” shall choose the time/space of their leaving. They are unlikely to leave until their other-selves are harvestable also.

Quote:17.25 Questioner: How did Taras Bulba, Genghis Khan, and Rasputin get harvested prior to the harvest?

Ra: I am Ra. It is the right/privilege/duty of those opening consciously the gate to intelligent infinity to choose the manner of their leaving of the density. Those of negative orientation who so achieve this right/duty most often choose to move forward in their learn/teaching of service to self.

Usually, positive entities stay and reincarnate with their unharvested soul groups, negative entities move on as soon as they can.

For the other part, Ra says that an early 3rd density entity reverts to the ORANGE ray when it comes to serving the family - seeing the group as an extension of itself, like a pack animal. Ra says this is without polarity. So your point about "conscious" service rings true there, but Ra also says that most entities are far along the path of their choosing before they become conscious that they have even made a choice. Ra also says that an entity can be harvestable without any knowledge of the Law of One. In fact, humility in the face of "knowledge" is required for harvest. Once one reaches 5th density, conscious awareness of one's acts is required.

Quote:16.39 Questioner: I am assuming it is not necessary for an individual to understand the Law of One to go from third to fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable. Understanding is not of this density.

16.40 Questioner: That is a very important point. I used the wrong word. What I meant to say was I believe that it was not necessary for an entity to be consciously aware of the Law of One to go from third to fourth density.

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

16.41 Questioner: At what point in densities is it necessary for an entity to be consciously aware of the Law of One to progress?

Ra:
I am Ra. The fifth-density harvest is of those whose vibratory distortions consciously accept the honor/duty of the Law of One. This responsibility/honor is the foundation of this vibration.
Thank you for your well considered reply. With regard to my examples of presumed service, I originally said orange ray - but then second-guessed myself and changed it to yellow, but my point is about a level of awareness of self that is required to generate an act of service to others.
I agree with the position that consciousness of the Law of One is not necessary until the fifth density, but I don't agree with the interpretation of this quote that you paraphrase from 19:16

    The majority of third-density beings is far along the chosen path before realization of that path is conscious.

For me the word realization here is like the actual work that one does in order to make a goal become real. So the "parktdlog duty" of the Gurdjieff Work could be equated with the conscious act of service that leads one to the path of their choosing, and even "well along it" before the being begins to direct this ascent towards the higher cause of the fourth ray and above in an intentional and organized manner.
I believe the answer to this query can be found in very subtle word choices such as in this quote from 13:23:
     
However, the thought-forms of your people during this transition period are such that the mind/body/spirit       complexes of both individual and societies are scattered throughout the spectrum instead of becoming able to grasp the needle, shall we say, and point the compass in one direction.

Notice that the failure is not exactly of "pointing the needle" one way or another it is in the beings inability to become even able to take a hold of it. Also, I have to add that this failure is reported by Ra to be due to very similar unfortunate and highly complex conditions that we ourselves have established here on this planet.  

Thanks again. Inspiring words Smile
Are you saying that, according to Gurdjieff, one must be fully aware that they are taking an action to serve others as a service to their whole spiritual self with every action that they take for it to "count"? Because I think Ra's version of the Law of One focuses more on spontaneous acts of love and generosity freely given, and that true power lies therein, not in premeditated acts that are calculated for their spiritual power.
I disagree, Ra supports ceremonial and ritual practices which are distinctly premeditated methods and efforts towards balancing and service. Even stating that after much polarization the techniques can be quite effective. I do not see Ra as having a bias towards spontaneity but rather suggest the genuinity of unrepressed desires and responses.

However, since he referred to the Golden Dawn system as a 'formidable system of service' I would say they have some fair respect to calculated, ritual methods. For example they even gave a ritual, a series of questions, to call the Light strength and focus their intentions, all conscious acts. They ask them to walk the circle of one every time.

I dont think 'calculated' is the same as 'STS control' if that is what you are suggesting.
Quote:30.1 Questioner: I am going to make a statement and then let you correct it if I have made any errors. This is the statement: Creation is a single entity or unity. If only a single entity exists, then the only concept of service is service to self. If this single entity subdivides, then the concept of service of one of its parts to the other part is born. From this concept springs the equality of service to self or to others. It would seem that as the Logos subdivided, parts would select each orientation. As individualized entities emerge in space/time then I would assume that they have polarity. Is this statement correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This statement is quite perceptive and correct until the final phrase in which we note that the polarities begin to be explored only at the point when a third-density entity becomes aware of the possibility of choice between the concept or distortion of service to self or service to others. This marks the end of what you may call the unselfconscious or innocent phase of conscious awareness.
I do also disagree that 'total, absolute consciousness' is necessary for 'full polarization', since it is possible to only partially polarize a catalyst but for the complete process and on the adept level I would say it is required.

Quote:94.11 Questioner: I have drawn a small diagram in which I simply show an arrow which represents catalyst penetrating a line at right angles to the arrow, which is the veil, and then depositing in one of two repositories, one which I would call on the right-hand path, one on the left-hand path; and I have labeled these two repositories for the catalytic action as it’s filtered through the veil “the Experience.” Would this be a very rough analogy of the way the catalyst is filtered through the veil to become experience?

Ra: I am Ra. Again, you are partially correct. The deeper biases of a mind/body/spirit complex pilot the catalyst around the many isles of positivity and negativity as expressed in the archipelago of the deeper mind. However, the analogy is incorrect in that it does not take into account the further polarization which most certainly is available to the conscious mind after it has perceived the partially polarized catalyst from the deeper mind.
Quote:93.10 Questioner: The bird, I am guessing, might be a messenger, the two paths depicted by the position of the wings, bringing catalyst which could be used to polarize on either path. Is this in any way correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is a correct perception that the position of the wingèd creature is significant. The more correct perception of this entity and its significance is the realization that the mind/body/spirit complex is, having made contact with its potentiated self, now beginning its flight towards that great Logos which is that which is sought by the adept.

Further, the nature of the wingèd creature is echoed both by the female holding it and the symbol of the female upon which the figure’s feet rest; that is, the nature of catalyst is overwhelmingly of an unconsciousness, coming from that which is not of the mind and which has no connection with the intellect, as you call it, which precedes or is concomitant with catalytic action. All uses of catalyst by the mind are those consciously applied to catalyst. Without conscious intent the use of catalyst is never processed through mentation, ideation, and imagination.
(08-18-2016, 11:42 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ]Are you saying that, according to Gurdjieff, one must be fully aware that they are taking an action to serve others as a service to their whole spiritual self with every action that they take for it to "count"? Because I think Ra's version of the Law of One focuses more on spontaneous acts of love and generosity freely given, and that true power lies therein, not in premeditated acts that are calculated for their spiritual power.

No. I am not saying that at all.

The service "counts" (towards our degree of 51%) when it is not initiated by a "mechanical state" or the red through yellow rays. The "Man number 4" of Gurdjieff is beginning fourth dimensional work. G. taught that the higher self would communicate with the lower in order to initiate this action of actually "doing" instead of reacting to stimulus of the first three rays. Later, as man No. 5-7 we experience the fullness of
       
  "taking an action to serve others as a service to their whole spiritual self with every action that they take".

    As you say focusing on  "spontaneous acts of love and generosity freely given" is the key you find in the Ra Material, I see these moments as the "shocks" from our higher states that G. speaks about, that allow us the opportunity to move our awareness and sense of being from our automatic functions to the function of love.

So there we are in agreement in favor of spontaneous kindness, but I'm not so sure I would close the door on premeditated acts that are calculated for ...spiritual power".  I guess I don't understand the term spiritual power - is it a negative connotation.?
If so then it would not correspond with the Gurdjieff Work, as it depends on the service to others. Premeditation and calculation are an integral part of how the Ra material was brought to us so they can't be incongruous.

I think where the difference is, is that the Ra material only suggests that something beyond goodwill is necessary to make the leap using the springboard of green ray energy, and G. makes one uncomfortable in the awareness that perhaps not everything is "roses, roses".

May my wish to be of service be perceived.
I think it's possible that we began talking about different things without realizing it. I am talking about a third density entity achieving fourth density harvest (the entity that is far along its path without realizing it), and it seems the two of you are speaking more of adept work, i.e. that which comes after one activates the green ray, if they so desire - stuff that would affect Wanderers more, those who come from a higher density.

I think it's possible that, if a third density entity who is unpolarized becomes aware of any spiritual work that tells them they must polarize, that their intentions to polarize might become way more muddled and confused than if a third density entity were to spontaneous come upon the open heart in a "organic", spontaneous way.

But, in total, my understanding of the Ra material that the point of adepthood is to then therefore lead back to the point where the act of generating love is spontaneous and not premeditated. Ritualizing spirituality is just to undo our ritualization of all of the unspiritual things that we spend out attention upon. From what I understand, the point of "ritual" is to create a habit so that a movement of energy is spontaneous and not forced.

I'm not closing the door on premeditated acts. I'm just arguing against what seems to be a hard point of Gurdjieff's that one must be fully aware/conscious of their spiritual potential to utilize polarization. But I don't know anything about Gurdjieff, all I have is what you have said herald - which isn't much really, considering I don't know any of the lingo. So I'm not quite sure what we're all necessarily disagreeing about anymore. Tongue
I think you may have a bit of a bias, but agree to disagree I suppose. Surely I am also biased. I believe 'harvestability' and graduation to fourth density requires conscious awareness of the choice between service to self and service to others and the conscious, intentional choice of one of the two polarities. I don't believe it can 'just happen' to someone who is unconscious of the choice they are making. Someone can be super nice and kind and caring, loving in all ways, but if they are not conscious of their choosing then it is just reactive and they are acting little more than habitually.

Quote:77.16 Questioner: What I am really attempting to understand, since all of these twenty-one philosophical bases result in the twenty-second which is The Choice, is why this choice is so important, why the Logos, it seems, puts so much emphasis on this choice, and what function that choice of polarity is, precisely, in the evolution or the experience of that which is created by the Logos?

Ra: I am Ra. The polarization or choosing of each mind/body/spirit is necessary for harvestability from third density. The higher densities do their work due to the polarity gained in this choice.
To clarify, I don't think you necessarily need to be conscious of your choice to polarize but I think realization and dedication to that choice will come before one is harvestable. I don't think someone is just harvested without then being aware of their orientation since third density itself is marked by the Choice. The whole purpose of this density is to become conscious of and make that choice.

I don't mean that everyone will even think of or consider the concepts of 'service to self/other's but rather they will have some experience where they will decidedly choose that they are either going to support people or use them for their own gain. Without this one simply floats in the 'pit of indifference'.

I do agree that someone being told what their choice 'should be' will likely only do harm. Note that Ra never does this.
When one makes the choice, they are well on their way to harvestable polarization according to Ra, from what I remember.
(08-18-2016, 08:22 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: [ -> ]When one makes the choice, they are well on their way to harvestable polarization according to Ra, from what I remember.

 
When one becomes aware of the choice made, one is already well established on its chosen path.

 
The quote is  from 19:16

     The majority of third-density beings is far along the chosen path before realization of that path is conscious.

Here "realization" may be active self-aware work.
(08-18-2016, 05:02 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's possible that we began talking about different things without realizing it. I am talking about a third density entity achieving fourth density harvest (the entity that is far along its path without realizing it), and it seems the two of you are speaking more of adept work, i.e. that which comes after one activates the green ray, if they so desire - stuff that would affect Wanderers more, those who come from a higher density.

I think it's possible that, if a third density entity who is unpolarized becomes aware of any spiritual work that tells them they must polarize, that their intentions to polarize might become way more muddled and confused than if a third density entity were to spontaneous come upon the open heart in a "organic", spontaneous way.

But, in total, my understanding of the Ra material that the point of adepthood is to then therefore lead back to the point where the act of generating love is spontaneous and not premeditated. Ritualizing spirituality is just to undo our ritualization of all of the unspiritual things that we spend out attention upon. From what I understand, the point of "ritual" is to create a habit so that a movement of energy is spontaneous and not forced.

I'm not closing the door on premeditated acts. I'm just arguing against what seems to be a hard point of Gurdjieff's that one must be fully aware/conscious of their spiritual potential to utilize polarization. But I don't know anything about Gurdjieff, all I have is what you have said herald - which isn't much really, considering I don't know any of the lingo. So I'm not quite sure what we're all necessarily disagreeing about anymore. Tongue

Thank you Bring 4th Jade, not only for sincerely responding to my post, but as I see also, for helping to provide for this very forum.
Gurdjieff was known for asking the question “How was this gift provided for me?  
He also asked his students not to talk about the work - except when specifically asked, and referred to “recruiting” efforts as "pulling out the chair from one who is comfortably seated".
I don’t go for ritual myself, and did not have nearly the self discipline to perform the dances that he taught, but I know people who made great use of it.
I liked the books he wrote.They made sense to me in a way that none others had before.Then, when I discovered the work of his best student, John Bennett, I was even more fascinated at the detail to which he could explain many of the most important concepts that I later read in the Ra Material.

Spontaneity has its role in “The Work”- it is called the ever present grace of our common creator endlessness.

As for adept-hood, I am going to make a joke…


When I think about the level of adept-hood that Ra managed to inspire with the Great Pyramid and how it was so distorted and diluted by ignorance and egoism - to the level it is today, where:

We are the adepts!!! That’s it!
We are the ones from whom this consciousness of positive polarity is supposed to radiate like a beacon on a hill - or perhaps a siren.
But the joke is… that … we never got that information until just recently... When I first looked at Tarot as a kid, my friend said his family told him it was from the devil.
That’s the information we are supposed to be adept at? (That part of the material was more dry to me than any of the Gurdjieff related books I ever read).
So that’s part of the joke, too I guess, because my wife and I were actually kind of casual about reading most of the symbolic methodology that comprises book 4 of the Material.
May our good intentions make up for some of the loss of our mastery of our forms  Smile



So, actually, no disagreements here - just pure terminology  …
An Overview of the Gurdjieff Books for Law of One Students:

Beelzebub’s Tales to his Grandson or, An Objectively Impartial Criticism of the Life of Man,

This series was written after a serious car accident which prevented Gurdjieff from teaching in the way he had planned using more physically based exercises. It was translated by many of his students, read aloud in groups, and many parts were re-written before it published at the time of his death in 1949.
Readers today should take into account several things before beginning with this one. Much of this tome was put together in the late twenties, a period where the attention of elite intellectuals was paramount to being heard in the discussion of spiritual awakening. These were people whose ideas were rarely put into question, and whose willpower had been weakened by the economic boom of the early twentieth century. Snarkyness and sarcasm were all-the-rage… people were ready to hear something shocking; if they did not, the book would have flopped.  
Gurdjieff, prepared for this, also wanted to write it in such a way as to make the mind focus longer than is usual to communicate a single thought with a sentence. In this way the reader would improve his or her ability to hold attention. The allegory tells of an ancient rich history of our solar system and our planet, with many detailed chapters on subjects such as art, war, and our lasting conscience. It is for those who have a good intellect, who can appreciate the exercise of the attention span and the humor of the wanderer whose compassion for the hapless three-brained-beings of planet earth at times could use a belly laugh. It may be read just casually at first and if the desire surfaces to look deeper, then read again for clarity of the exquisite metaphor.


Meetings With Remarkable Men

This is simply a loose autobiographical series. It is much easier to read. Many people suggest reading this book first to see if you are really interested in devoting the time that it takes to read the first series.

Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am"

This series is for the reader of today with no particular interest in the above considerations. It gets to the heart of The Work and gives actual exercises and advice to the fellow seeker. In this series we finally see a little bit of the humility of Gurdjieff, and we feel that a genuine connection has been made with the source of the material which has been brought to us through the long sacrifice and dedication of those in the spiritual work  before the time of the author and his books.

There are an inordinate number of books ABOUT Georges Gurdjieff, including the most popularized In Search of the Miraculous, by P.D. Ouspensky, who based his entire career on studying Gurdjieff’s ideas.

The books which actually flesh out the life and ideas of G. in an elegant and impeccable way were written by John Bennett.
Bennett was a mathematician, chemist, and a brilliant speaker of many languages who also studied various cultures and spiritual traditions. His magnum opus is The Dramatic Universe. It is an unparalleled mathematical proof of the existence of a divine creator and extraterrestrial intelligence, with an explanation of how we can verify and actualize the information for ourselves. (There are two versions of book 1, a short one and a long one - I read the short one first).
The beauty of the Bennett work is that all of his lectures were recorded and are available in many formats. Some of them make the most comforting companions as books, as Bennett was an incredibly eloquent speaker and his comedic timing is outstanding.

The Ouspensky books convey a hopelessness about our spiritual development that is entirely dependent on working in a “fourth way school”. It is difficult to see through his despair, but if your spirit is in joy, there is something to be learned there about the mechanism of the moving-emotional-intellectual centers and their chemistry.

Any others are no better than the gossip magazines of today - which may be of interest in the waiting room or hair salon- but not elsewhere.