(03-04-2017, 09:28 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]CA I donk you mean any harm and are likely a good guy but I do understand Jades issue with you commenting about the female form(body) being what you are so in love with. Perhaps it was a wrong terminology issue but the largest part of the problem is a large percentage of men see women's value only as their body.
It's incredibly dehumanizing. I've had guy friends I really cared about ditch after years solely because I wouldn't sleep with them. First I'm married, second it was clear from the start we were friends. How is that insulting that I won't let you between my legs? Why isn't my friendship worth having even without sex? Oh that's right because I'm great and personality is exactly what you want in a friend for years but since my body is appealing and you can't separate women and sex if you can't have that too your going to take your ball and go home.
Actually I've always had guy friends thankfully not all men see a women's only worth as her body.
However saying it as you did in this thread was a bit of proving what we already know. Men mostly see us as bodies.
One of my friends has had his eyes opened this year. He and his guy buddies like to take pictures of women's asses in public, it's immature but I love him so would roll my eyes. Funny how out for dinner some guy wouldn't stop taking pictures of me and he was SOOO pissed. Like wanted to go beat the crap out of him. He could dehumanize other women but couldn't handle it when someone did it to me.
Then I had issues at my gym with a guy taking my picture when I'm working out or just standing staring, watching. It's so creepy I've finally decided to change to a women's only gym even though it's less equipped. Same friend in that storey above wants photo guy arrested. Totally overkill but he sees how messed up it is to treat women like that when it's me. He knows what those guys are thinking because he does/did the same but he sure as heck doesn't want me being thought of like that.
These posts are all getting way to long so I'm not going to reply to everything. I seriously don't think you mean any harm.
Understand though through your ego you are NOT going to get why it hurt seeing guys here we thought considered us equals all making comments mocking women attempts to bring attention to the way society dehumanizes us. Through your ego you will not understand the way women have experienced being treated as without value except for her bangabilty.
You seem aware enough you could ask to understand then meditate and see where the quiet takes you.
As myself as I said I love men. I hate when people say "man up" as if that means shut your emotions down, I hate when the world says "be a man and be a good provider". I married an art student, men are not wallets they are beautiful beings and society has closed so much of their heart off from themselves. We all have lost by suppression of the feminin because we all are both male and female.
The goal should be to develop both sides explore both sides to reach our fullest beauty but to do that as men you have to make the feminine seen as something that is valuable for much more than the body. I dare say the most beautiful part of feminine has zero to do with the body and if anything the "beautiful form" has camouflaged the true gift for recorded history.
See, I want you to know I consider you equal and then some, considering we're all infinity, and that I actually agree with all of those, the dehumanization, I've been one of those men once and I lost one of the greatest friends I've ever had. And it taught me a lot about some of my issues, especially with women, all of which I was pretty much suppressing and in denial about. Maybe I still am, I want to work through that, I just want to discuss these issues.
What did those blog links say? Can you pm them to me? I have no idea what was said in them and I'm curious as to their contents now.
I understand what it feels like to be seen only as a body. For your mind to go unnoticed. I can't say I've ever had anyone harass me by taking my picture. That's kind of disturbing because it might mean there's a picture of you somewhere out there now as a faceless body. And that proves your point more, about how dehumanizing it is. It's kind of the same way I feel sometimes just because of how I am, and that seems to be the case most of my life with some short exceptions. Being seen as unattractive for how my body and mind is, also is dehumanizing in the exact opposite way you're experiencing. I think I can sympathize enough to find empathy in your situation. You shouldn't have to feel so disrespected by others when you go out into society. It's something we all need to work on because it effects all of us.
I also find this especially true,
"Through your ego you will not understand the way women have experienced being treated as without value except for her bangabilty." I think you might find men are exposed to those same situations in a lot of instances. I do admit I do not see that in most people here though, as you all seem to be more empathetic and able to see beyond the skin, or words if you will. Around me though, where I live and in my life, I've had literally a handful of encounters with others who found me attractive, I can only really remember one time someone called me attractive in my entire life. It's weird because men's value on women also effect the men, if they treat you by your bangability, they treat themselves in the same way. It might be sick or perverse, but it's an occurrence that can be seen to be growing, and one day men everywhere are going to realize if things are right or not, and maybe 'mankind' will learn a thing or two and evolve to treat 'womankind' as an equal and for society to mimic this, and not poison each other with hollywood standards or exceptionally high standards in a 'modern' world.
You understand me better than you might realize, as does Jade. Yet I also admit to trying to better understand, in that light I'm being open and honest, in the hopes everyone else will be too. So I appreciate the concerns with my views, I don't think I quite know what those are if they're attached to those blog links but in my mind it was as simple as man and woman are equal, whatever one can do to one, the other can do equally in kind. If they are at odds, they both are weakened, if they're equal, they strive.
But for a lot of that to happen, we need to be presented with each others bias', and we need to be able to help those who want to find others equal, all others equal, by seeing passed those bias' and realizing they are learned opinions, and they can be exposed to consider other options. Thank you Jade, for pointing out exactly what I said in a more concise light. That sadly is who I still am, and I'm trying to be better educated it would seem. Even if that means bearing the brunt of a lot of anger directed at me.
(03-05-2017, 12:51 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ] (03-04-2017, 07:58 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, okay. First, didn't read his blog, didn't felt I needed to to get what he was saying, but mostly I find it sad that he was censored in such a way without even being consulted to change his post first like what has once been done for me personally. I've been in some similar situations as you Jade, you shouldn't believe your experiences are so indifferent for a man to empathize with. I think your aggravation by my appreciation of the female qualities of existence is something you should consider exploring, I'm not talking about bodies. I'm talking about qualities. If you find my attraction to feminine qualities distasteful, then I can only say, may the shame you sell upon me be upon you instead. I am proud of my appreciations of the female everything. Without that love for something I believe myself to be more of than my own physical body can portray, I would be much more hateful and condescending, outright indignant towards women, that you call that very quality incendiary, I find just as incendiary.
I will not be ashamed for what I love, appreciate, and desire to know more of.
Joseph, you know I love you and don't think poorly or lowly of you. It's just shocking to see anyone say that what e_s said in his post wasn't hateful.
I also have not yet once in this thread (or, anywhere that I can think of) said anything about men being this or that. You are reading this into my words. If you find a specific instance, please show me.
Have I ever said I hate men? Have I ever implied it? Have I ever admitted to ever feeling misandry? Don't you see how resonating with misogyny on any level, even if it was in the past, might be unbalanced, might skew your opinions? Both you and earth_spirit have made the point that you hated women in the past. Are you sure you have completely evolved past this?
You made the comment about "women's form" with the explicit caveat that you also felt this way about men but "less sexually", immediately after you mentioned your porn addiction. You made it sexual. The reason this "triggers" me is because you seem so blind to how you are perpetuating what I perceive to be the issue, what Glow initially stated was the issue. Women are systemically reduced to being valued for only their appearance. Then, in the above paragraph you state that if you didn't appreciate the female "qualities" that you would be much more hateful towards women? I'm sorry, this sounds like you are still only seeing a shallow view of women.
You know how I treat an attractive wo/man and an unattractive wo/man? Exactly the same, because I don't judge people on their attractiveness. The thought literally never occurs to me. Unless someone has some jarring physical deformity, I really don't notice much about anything about how anyone looks. Do other (awake) people operate on a system where they are judging people by their physical appearance?
We can talk all we want about love and light and unity but, if you can't understand why I have grievances, then we still have a huge gap to cover before we can get there.
Here's a thought experiment. What if I (or someone else) said this:
"Black people are too lazy to contribute anything meaningful to society. Black people break the minds of their children and indoctrinate their sons to be subservient slaves and their daughters to be narcissistic airheads. Black people actually hate and oppress black people more than white people oppress black people, they hold themselves, and everyone else, down."
Is this hate speech? Yes/no.
I don't know, it sounds more ignorant to me than anything else, mostly because black people and women are different systems of energies in parts, feminine equality is a red ray issue for me, racial equality is an orange ray issue, to offer one in context of the other is a bit hard to answer a question of. The feminine equality belongs to every racial label we have in society, and in a way it ties the yellow ray energies of family into the orange ray qualities of racial equality. I do not believe e_s intended to come off in the manner you hear of him, I sort of wish he would come back and expand on what he was getting at because I think he greatly misrepresented his actual opinions if these are the reactions to them.
"We can talk all we want about love and light and unity but, if you can't understand why I have grievances, then we still have a huge gap to cover before we can get there. "
I do understand why you feel these ways, maybe not as deeply and vividly but I'm here to better understand, I'm trying to and so I'm asking for your help on this. You've been helpful so far but I think I might help you help me more by actually asking.
"Do other (awake) people operate on a system where they are judging people by their physical appearance?"
I know I do mostly out of shyness, that doesn't mean I can't interact with an exceptionally attractive person but it does make me much more shut in about myself, I just try to be helpful and courteous then move about my day. In that same sense, I'm always helpful and courteous to random people, especially those who might expect me to be so, such as elderly or disabled people, but that's just how I was raised to be. Why do you judge this as an awake or not trait? I still view each person in the same way, I just react differently to their outer appearance out of an attempt not to embarrass myself.
While I agree with what you're saying, try to see those same words pointed at e_s, imagine being called hateful and ignorant, just the same way you see him calling you all lazy and manipulative. It's not exactly a flattering view of either side. You can try to detach yourself from that inference but I think you should consider reacting to perceived hate speech with less hate. Even if his views are as they are, he posted them here, and he was being open about himself, he was opening up to let you all make some commentary, to tell him that it's abusive if it sounds abusive. Instead he was censored and accosted with similar labels others perceived of him making upon them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to consider my words as I consider yours, sort of extensions of what we might also consider. I do think calling all men, racial groups, or women lazy and manipulative is quite a broad statement, but if that's who he is or what he thinks, why should we censor him? At the very least remove the links to the blog and discuss with him the quality of what he shared and why what was done was done, and if we can all be calm about this, we can come to some healing I would imagine.
Is that possible to do here?
"Have I ever said I hate men? Have I ever implied it? Have I ever admitted to ever feeling misandry? Don't you see how resonating with misogyny on any level, even if it was in the past, might be unbalanced, might skew your opinions? Both you and earth_spirit have made the point that you hated women in the past. Are you sure you have completely evolved past this?
You made the comment about "women's form" with the explicit caveat that you also felt this way about men but "less sexually", immediately after you mentioned your porn addiction. [i]You made it sexual. The reason this "triggers" me is because you seem so blind to how you are perpetuating what I perceive to be the issue, what Glow initially stated was the issue. Women are
systemically reduced to being valued for only their appearance. Then, in the above paragraph you state that if you didn't appreciate the female "qualities" that you would be much more hateful towards women? I'm sorry, this sounds like you are still only seeing a shallow view of women."[/i]
If I were to ignore these feelings inside of me, and just suppress them rather than express them I would be doing myself no favors in learning how to be a better person. I think the same can be said of e_s if you perceive him in those ways, and I think the same can be said of you and any female with exposure to our society that how you perceive someone like e_s directly shows if you have ties to energies of misandry, which are spread across our society subliminally. Many men have suppressed desires of misogyny, if we go by the concept of male is female, it might make better sense why I don't see it as a far leap of logic for many women to have suppressed desires of misandry that might quietly influence how they react to men, just like how it effects how men react to women.
I especially have never understood why someone would become angry at an innocent remark that their sex is more admirable and physically pleasant. I'm not perverting you intentionally with such feelings, it's just how I feel, that the feminine qualities are more attractive overall to me, whether it be sexually or emotionally or physically or energetically. Why does that upset you so strongly that you think it objectifies you? I find the creator attractive in the exact same sense, isn't that something to be praiseworthy for and to give thanks for? How does this objectify you when I find them reasons to not objectify you???
You should perhaps view my affirmation of not finding the masculine sexual as a statement of denial for finding it sexual. And not an attempt to detach sexual aspects from the previous statement, but thank you for reading into it that way as it helps me know how to be more sensitive to others when expressing such things.
The female qualities I refer to, are my own. As I perceive them to be at least. If you see this as shallow then know you also reference my understanding of my masculine qualities as shallow. I don't really differentiate many traits with male and female energies because any I might think up I can easily see being present in the opposite sex. I value things by their appearance, I do and I admit it, but I also value things by their depth and the various facets of how they are, I appreciate the spirit, and in people, I appreciate the mind a lot, mostly because I feel mine is pretty unappreciated, so I find it easy to be appreciative of such a thing as the mind, and how it allows everyone to be as a portion of infinity. If I appreciate the way the female brain seems to operate more so than the male brain, I apologize for this being upsetting to you, but I must mention, I don't understand why this upsets you. If I appreciate the qualities and quantities of the feminine divine manifest, I try to do the same in the masculine, but I find myself drawn more to the feminine with a grand appreciation for the masculine that echoes my grand appreciation for the feminine.
I do not understand why you view these things of me as upsetting. I apologize for this and I guess just want you to know I'm thankful for your honesty with me. I hope you won't think too much differently of me for these interactions.
As for 'evolving' beyond anything I find myself, with, of course I have not evolved beyond it. I have no desire to, these traits are all things that belong to infinity and I have to explore them as they become one with me. Whatever is not needed falls away, so whatever I have now, I need. It's a basic toolbelt of the board game of life, the point doesn't seem to be to make everything unneeded, it's more to no longer feel the need to need them out of satisfaction for what has become. So I'm sorry if you disagree with my patient manner of handling my many distortions. A lot of people get frustrated with my slowness.
(03-05-2017, 03:33 AM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]I couldn't figure out how to phrase it but since you started I too CA think it is a sign for you if you couldn't see what was offensive in es post.
I'm sure you are on a great path but your eyes are still sort of closed here.
Saying it just reflected his experiences so is valid to be stated shows a lack of understanding to why a woman's behaviour might be a way he perceives as manipulative or lazy.
It reduces people who have been marginalized already then are perpetuating further marjinalization by generalizing about an entire sexes character. How exactly is that not hate speach?
Edited because it made perfect sense at 3am but nope.
I think I saw his words through the eyes of a friend, who might not be able to as easily perceive whatever hateful energies you did, but I reiterate, I didn't read the blog, and I feel like his words were more regarding a societal viewpoint of the feminine from a man's point of view, to which he was pretty much censored and challenged, whereas he probably was hoping to explore those things and be shown new viewpoints in an environment akin to a classroom. I feel like whatever hatred there is to be found in him, was expressed by him to be worked upon, perhaps just as much as he might intended to thrust his opinion upon us just as we have all done to him.
I'm trying to be neutral, to try and find some kind of way to bring about a connection and healing, to help one is to help all, you know? Let's try and help each other better understand how we can respect one another, and let's help show people with offensive views why they are offensive in a calm manner, to try and show that there is a reason for these thoughts and feelings, and one way or another, we can prove it by working with them rather than against them.
A sort of paradox, to allow it by working with it, but only so to help guide it to work with you.
I hate the idea of the battle of the sexes, sure friendly competition keeps us all tip-top and respecting one another, but to take it to such extremes, it makes no sense to me. Healing comes with forgiveness, the problem is forgiveness doesn't always mean another will learn their lessons, it does however show you learned yours. If that means you can help another by example learn their lessons too as we all have similar lessons, then perhaps the true way to heal against misogyny is to not attack it, but to understand it so you can help it. The same goes for men and misandry.
Why fight when you can make peace?
(03-05-2017, 10:59 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ] (03-05-2017, 03:19 AM)Billy Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with appreciating or being attracted to someones form. I like looking at healthy people, because it acts as a motivator for me to value my own health more. I mean there are obviously boundaries, like taking secretive pictures or staring without any thought for the other persons comfort, but looking at someone because you like their appearance, be it a man or woman, I don't think is sexist. I think it can be quite innocent. If that becomes the measure by which you determine a persons worth, then yes, I agree that is a serious issue, and I will also concede that women have it harder than men in that regard. I think that the big difference in rates of anorexia between men and women attest to this, but I could be wrong about that. We are a very body/appearance focused society, and this affects all of us, it has deeply affected me for half of my life and continues to. I can't tell you how many times I've had the thought that 'if I looked better, life would be better'.
The topic of this thread is one of my real weaknesses and I hope that we can continue to talk about this in a way which is mutually beneficial.
Okay, let me attempt to clarify. I'm not against people finding other people attractive, or complimenting them, or even receiving compliments. The reason my own boundary was crossed was because we are talking about sexism, and someone tried to placate me by telling me how much they appreciate the "female form". Now, "appreciating the female form" is a colloquialism that has a specific meaning, usually referring to finding the physical form of women attractive. This isn't the first time any of us have heard it. The fact that he mentioned this after referencing his porn addiction solidifies that he meant this in a sexual way. In the context of this conversation, it really highlighted how much this is a problem - reducing a woman's value to her sexuality/appearance. (For an obvious example, take a look at Hollywood - actresses "age out" but Patrick Stewart is still a sex symbol) Saying things like this also continues to emphasize gender roles.
I think anyone who is struggling with empathizing with this concept should consider what it means to court the maiden - to understand that the typical "default state" of the maiden is in her prostituted form - the exploited - and to the virginal maiden who desires a different approach, anything that smells of exploitation is repulsive. Sure, appreciate the female form all you want - but I can tell you there aren't many women who would be flattered to hear such a thing from someone who basically in the same breathe admits to feelings of misogyny.
"You should perhaps view my affirmation of not finding the masculine sexual as a statement of denial for finding it sexual. And not an attempt to detach sexual aspects from the previous statement, but thank you for reading into it that way as it helps me know how to be more sensitive to others when expressing such things.
The female qualities I refer to, are my own. As I perceive them to be at least. If you see this as shallow then know you also reference my understanding of my masculine qualities as shallow. I don't really differentiate many traits with male and female energies because any I might think up I can easily see being present in the opposite sex. I value things by their appearance, I do and I admit it, but I also value things by their depth and the various facets of how they are, I appreciate the spirit, and in people, I appreciate the mind a lot, mostly because I feel mine is pretty unappreciated, so I find it easy to be appreciative of such a thing as the mind, and how it allows everyone to be as a portion of infinity. If I appreciate the way the female brain seems to operate more so than the male brain, I apologize for this being upsetting to you, but I must mention, I don't understand why this upsets you. If I appreciate the qualities and quantities of the feminine divine manifest, I try to do the same in the masculine, but I find myself drawn more to the feminine with a grand appreciation for the masculine that echoes my grand appreciation for the feminine.
I do not understand why you view these things of me as upsetting. I apologize for this and I guess just want you to know I'm thankful for your honesty with me. I hope you won't think too much differently of me for these interactions."
I also think it's interesting that you reference hollywood's manner of going about things, I think we can all agree, Hollywood has a messed up portrayal of the sexes that creates an almost fantasy ideal in reality.
I think it's nice of you to paint me in that ugly unflattering light I often feel I exist within, it's almost a bit humiliating if I weren't already admitting to such things. I still don't understand why it'd be upsetting from a misogynist or a respectful man that stating the feminine form to be more pleasant and attractive than the masculine. I understand that coming from a misogynist it might hold the context of appreciating the abuse of those forms and that can be very upsetting, just the same way I find various portrayals of accepted violence against men by women upsetting. But I would never be upset that a woman found a man attractive. I might be jealous of others I perceive to be more physically attractive than me but I don't think that ties into sexism as much as it does vanity, so I don't understand why this would upset you beyond viewing it as some kind of form of abuse of the feminine, and even then. If it's only in mind and not being actively played out in the physical beyond it's expression of being, should it be quelled so heatedly?
I find it interesting how hateful people are towards hatred. It's like fueling a flame with another flame. Wouldn't you rather make sure that flame can become less destructive and more illuminating by using stillness and calmness to transform it from a fiery inferno to a steady flame?
Hatred is just the frenzy, don't get caught up in that frenzy, you can diffuse it if not directly, then indirectly by example. We all have the potential for ill feelings towards the opposite sex, we don't need to admit to it for them to be there even in small shallow little ways. We can be forgiving to hatred and make motions to help educate people who are colored with the hatred of bias.
We can all be better by helping one another.