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I've had some kind of spiritual experience 4 years ago. Since then, I have read, read, read, thought, thought, thought about it... And in many regards, it feels like I haven't done that much concretely. I'm still confused about many different things and concepts on a daily basis. So, this is some kind of "warning" for other seekers:

Ivory Tower: environment of intellectual pursuit disconnected from the practical concerns of everyday life.

To learn, but not to practice.

And yesterday I found two very interesting quotes while reading the Ra Material and the Wanderer's handbook:

From the Handbook:

"The brothers and sisters of Q’uo say:

We do not see ourselves as being wiser than those within third density but merely in a somewhat different illusion, and, therefore, in some-
what different circumstances. Yet we, as you, seek to know and yet do not know. We simply have come to hold fairly settled opinions, and, as is the way of things spiritual, our truths move constantly into the unknown, as do your own. Thusly, there is always the contradiction, the tangle, the knot of attempting to understand that which can only be embodied"

And from the Ra Material:

"16.39 Questioner: I am assuming it is not necessary for an individual to understand the Law of One to go from third to fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable. Understanding is not of this density."

Those quotes remind me of the famous one by Socrates: "All I know is I know nothing"

So, I guess that trying to understand and intellectual pursuit are fine, as long as it's mostly for curiosity and to grasp concepts better while "working on the field", so to speak. My feeling is that intellectual pursuit with the objective of "understanding everything" or "getting to the finish line" will just never end and will ultimately be pointless if it's not paired with concrete actions...
-----
My entire spiritual journey began out of sincere curiosity so I do lean more toward the intellectual approach, I never sought to change things nor better myself nor find greater joy or anything of the like. It merely felt like there was something to know and that I was in a body with the potential to contemplate and seek knowing.

But that is the root of my seeking and I see the potential to seek as somewhat infinite in itself and that there is no path more valid over another, and that sincerity is what truly opens the doorway to knowledge. All seeking come from a drive and will always remain true to that drive.
I also know this desire of intellectual pursuit disconnected from life. Hatonn and Ra pointed out two fundaments of learning the ways of love (the spiritual development in this density): every moment opportunities in relations with other selves balanced with daily meditation in quiet solitude. Service and preparation of service.  

Quote:Become aware of your Creator. Become aware of His desire, and when you know this desire you will know your own, for you and your Creator are one, and you are one with all of His parts and, therefore, all of your fellow beings throughout all of the creation. When you know His desire you will feel it. There will be no more confusion. There will be no more questions. You will have found what you have sought. You will have found Love, for this is the desire of your Creator: that all of His parts express and experience the Love that created you. This may be found simply, in meditation. No amount of seeking within the intellectual concepts of your people, no amount of careful planning or careful interpretation of the written or spoken word will lead you to the simple truth. (Hatonn)

If you have grown over this intellectual "ivory tower", it was a useful experience. Ra said:

Quote:The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.
In the 70s I began attending the Wednesday night meditations at Hal and Jo Price's house, where I heard repetitions of the message to meditate, meditate, meditate. It was good advice, too. Don taught that the best way to prepare for a final exam was to find a peaceful place in nature to stare at a tree and think of nothing. He was right, in my case.

Nevertheless, my personal improvement was enhanced by reading and rereading the LOO, and now it is to go among others and demonstrate my much improved self. This may read as arrogant, but mainly what I perform is quiet acceptance and respect of anyone and everyone, and seldom "teach" anything.
(03-21-2017, 04:03 PM)earth_spirit Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-21-2017, 03:46 PM)kevn Wrote: [ -> ]...I guess that trying to understand and intellectual pursuit are fine, as long as it's mostly for curiosity and to grasp concepts better while "working on the field", so to speak. My feeling is that intellectual pursuit with the objective of "understanding everything" or "getting to the finish line" will just never end and will ultimately be pointless if it's not paired with concrete actions...

That action is to increase ones awareness of love and unity.

"intellectual pursuit" is contemplation and an ongoing effort to gain new and deeper insights on experience you have already gathered. This is good and valuable work just as valuable as the life experiences that fuel the desire to pursue intellectual understanding. For what is "intellectual understanding" but UNDERSTANDING!!! "Understanding" is the fruit of intellectual pursuit that becomes permanently imprinted on the spirit as a KNOWING. This is a quantitative and qualitative increase in the wisdom of the entity and is as valuable and viable as any other "experience" or "action". Contemplation is a form of meditation that is just one of many forms that "meditation" can take for an entity. The form of meditation chosen results from numerous inputs, and will change as needs, longings and insights change. YOU are the sole judge of the rightness and fitness of the meditative path you travel. Follow your inner compass and you will follow the path you were meant to travel.
I needed to see this.

Knowledge can be an addiction, and definitely lead one down a STS path, even if one is not truly malevolent. Personally, I would like to move away from knowing, and towards embodying the Law of One. Both for my benefit and for others' benefit (so basically, for my benefit, hehe).

It is terrible thing to hold enlightened concepts in your conscious mind, without ever FEELING these things on a deeper level. Never feeling true peace, one digs deeper and deeper into knowledge, attempting to fill a void which thoughts cannot fill. I've seen this in myself and in others.

That all said, however, reading about and contemplating that which fascinates you is a joy I wouldn't deny anyone.
(04-05-2017, 04:50 AM)MangusKhan Wrote: [ -> ]I needed to see this.

Knowledge can be an addiction, and definitely lead one down a STS path, even if one is not truly malevolent. Personally, I would like to move away from knowing, and towards embodying the Law of One. Both for my benefit and for others' benefit (so basically, for my benefit, hehe).

It is terrible thing to hold enlightened concepts in your conscious mind, without ever FEELING these things on a deeper level. Never feeling true peace, one digs deeper and deeper into knowledge, attempting to fill a void which thoughts cannot fill. I've seen this in myself and in others.

That all said, however, reading about and contemplating that which fascinates you is a joy I wouldn't deny anyone.

"Information" itself is benign, it's the use it's put to in regards to other-selves that determines whether the entity is following an STS or STO path. Knowledge is what is KNOWN, information is that is that which is both unknown and "untried" - at a total mind/body/spirit complex level (including the reincarnational past), and can be dangerous because of inexperience and the high chance of error. Poorly executed action inspired by poorly grasped information can lead to extreme suffering and that can pull one in the direction of the STS path. Thus the saying "the road to hell is paved with GOOD intentions". However, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Information is "knowledge" only to the expect that the gatherer truly comprehends all the benefits and pitfalls that are the result of that information applied as action vis-a-vis other-selves. A book on torture techniques is "information". That information reflects "knowledge" for more experienced mind/body/spirit complexes because of having the actual experience of torture in the past. Without that experience however, there is no "knowing", no "knowledge" - only information. Information can of course lead to or enhance "temptation" to act in a way that attempts to control and therefore harm other-selves. It can be dangerous in that regard. For instance, it can be a bad idea to teach advanced martial arts techniques to very young children. It remains information - even when mastered - unless the child truly comprehends ALL the consequences of the application of that information vis-a-vis other selves. Only then is it "knowledge".
3rd into 4th then by what Ra is saying is you have to have an open crown. (thoughts/beliefs) If any of those crystallize to a significant degree soul learning basically halts. Like if you became hardcore religious, or didn't apply your own discernment to the LOO.

And the more you integrate your shadow, the more connected you become to your mental body which then connects to denser and denser and more and more ordered thoughtforms. Among these thoughtforms are access to future possibilities.
You have to be willing to be WRONG. The reason 6th density STS switches on a dime to become fully STO in literally the blink of an eye, it's the "first" time they are "free-will willing" to be absolutely totally and completely 100% WRONG. A "crystallized" thought is one that is no longer subject to "testing", no longer subject to critical examination. One that is no longer "questioned". This is the principle reason STS is so isolating. They are quite literally "hiding" from the truth. Having "open" thoughts and beliefs means having those thoughts and beliefs open to "challenge" by the self. And since "other-selves" are really also self, that implies that your thoughts and beliefs should be open and subject to the examination and criticism of "other-selves". Ah - but THAT is the real rub, isn't it?? How many us wear our hearts on our sleeves? How many of us "put it all out there"? How many of us invite open-ended critique of everything we say, do and believe? Not many. But that's OK - from a compassion standpoint we know that being "wrong" is painful, so we allow other-selves to shelter their "wrongness" and not criticize it because we don't want them to experience pain. It's all choice and experience. "Putting it all out there" is something only possible after the "forgetting" - for prior to that, all was "known" by everyone. But the veil was created precisely because Logos was not satisfied with the "state of the union" prior to the veil. It could be said that EVEN LOGOS was not accepting of "self". Perhaps that is what we truly are all really truly striving for. At the end of the day it's all about "acceptance of the self".
(04-05-2017, 12:55 AM)reedfish Wrote: [ -> ]"intellectual pursuit" is contemplation and an ongoing effort to gain new and deeper insights on experience you have already gathered. This is good and valuable work just as valuable as the life experiences that fuel the desire to pursue intellectual understanding. For what is "intellectual understanding" but UNDERSTANDING!!! "Understanding" is the fruit of intellectual pursuit that becomes permanently imprinted on the spirit as a KNOWING. This is a quantitative and qualitative increase in the wisdom of the entity and is as valuable and viable as any other "experience" or "action". Contemplation is a form of meditation that is just one of many forms that "meditation" can take for an entity. The form of meditation chosen results from numerous inputs, and will change as needs, longings and insights change. YOU are the sole judge of the rightness and fitness of the meditative path you travel. Follow your inner compass and you will follow the path you were meant to travel.

I have to say that i disagree!
Intellectual understanding is the illusion of understanding as opposed to understanding.
No amount of intellectual research will bring more than shallow and superficial "knowledge".

No entity would be able to gain any deeper insight exclusively by the intellect, even the most intellectual person will have "intellect free" moments.
The intellect can only stay inside his tiny little "box", only within its own construct of assumptions and thus has no access to deeper knowledge.
Thought is always an abstraction, and in that abstracted construct you would only use the "ingredients" you perceive as important. Everything you perceive as unimportant or dont even notice will not be part of your abstraction, so you have no possibility to access deeper information except what you already have.

The intellect is just a tiny little part of our consciousness, there is nothing bad about it, but if we restrict ourselves to that exclusively, we limit our consciousness to a tiny little consciousness.

There is no judgement involved, just naming things as they are.
When somebody feels that is the right way at the moment, fine, go for it!
But i think its good to realize there are many restrictions and limitations on that path!

As for meditation and contemplation, well, those ate just words and many people use them differently.
Contemplation is not a form of meditation in its true sense, at let not in my definition.

In tantric yoga for example, meditation is the state of absolute no-thought and a connection to the inner self that you EVENTUALLY can reach through practicing meditation, they dont even call "sitting still" meditation.
Its mostly referred to as "silent meditation" intending a state of inner stillness and no-thought.
Contemplation however has a certain "subject" or "object" that you try to view and examine on a inner level.

Just to explain my definition of meditation as well as the "yogic" definition.
In that sense i would not view anything that uses visualization, sounds or the likes as meditation.

I would define meditation only a "silent meditation" or aiming for stillness. Im pretty sure thats what Ra and Quo speak of also.
Not sure if you te familiar with the Quo channelings, but in 4 out of 10 channelings they mention the importance of realizing that the intellect is not a good instrument to progress on the spiritual path.

I still think its perfectly valuable and just the right path for some, its just a very slow route that doesnt lead very deep.
(04-05-2017, 09:45 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]I still think its perfectly valuable and just the right path for some, its just a very slow route that doesnt lead very deep.

Well just to relativize, I think so long you attempt to seek without a portion of yourself it's not balanced either.

Without an intellectual seeking I doubt you can reach much as it would be a seeking totally void of direction, best you'd get is to find yourself sitting in an empty space with no awareness of no thing but even that would be driven by an intellectual desire to explore silent meditation.

IMHO, a seeking that will find depth is a seeking that finds harmony in-between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind. Silence is the mean to allow the unconscious mind to answer back, it is a state of listening by removing the noise. Even the unconscious mind works through intellectual processes, is not the whole of what is within infinity just thought forms afterall?


(04-05-2017, 09:45 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]I would define meditation only a "silent meditation" or aiming for stillness. Im pretty sure thats what Ra and Quo speak of also.

17.40 Wrote:Questioner: Is there a best way to meditate?

Ra: I am Ra. No.

49.7 Wrote:Questioner: Will you recommend a technique of meditation?

Ra: I am Ra. No.

49.8 Wrote:Questioner: Is it better, or shall I say, does it produce more usable results in meditation to leave the mind, shall I say, as blank as possible; let it run down, so to speak, or is it better to focus in meditation on some object or some thing for concentration?
Ra: I am Ra. This shall be the last full query of this work time.

Each of the two types of meditation is useful for a particular reason. The passive meditation involving the clearing of the mind, the emptying of the mental jumble which is characteristic of mind complex activity among your peoples, is efficacious for those whose goal is to achieve an inner silence as a base from which to listen to the Creator. This is an useful and helpful tool and is by far the most generally useful type of meditation as opposed to contemplation or prayer.

The type of meditation which may be called visualization has as its goal not that which is contained in the meditation itself. Visualization is the tool of the adept. Those who learn to hold visual images in mind are developing an inner concentrative power that can transcend boredom and discomfort. When this ability has become crystallized in an adept the adept may then do polarizing in consciousness without external action which can affect the planetary consciousness. This is the reason for existence of the so-called White Magician. Only those wishing to pursue the conscious raising of planetary vibration will find visualization to be a particularly satisfying type of meditation.

Contemplation or the consideration in a meditative state of an inspiring image or text is extremely useful also among your peoples, and the faculty of will called praying is also of a potentially helpful nature. Whether it is indeed an helpful activity depends quite totally upon the intentions and objects of the one who prays.

May we ask if there are any brief queries at this time?

This last one seem to imply contemplation, prayer and visualization are forms of meditation. There's many others on the subject.

Bottomline, I'd say 3D is the density of the exploration of self-awareness as the Creator which is an intellectual process, so I don't think you can get anywhere without this form of seeking. Whereas the intellectual seeking has potential to find doors to deepen one's knowledge of all things. To truly feel Unity you first need to have contemplated the thought of it, to truly feel Oneness you need to first have contemplated the thought of it. Intellectual seeking is not without emotional seeking either, they should be seen as joint in their beingness.

You said you found it useful to set an intent for your psychedelic journeys, that is a form of intellectually driven seeking.

Or it's a bit like finding the Ra material. Only manner in which you will find it is through an intellectual drive, but to receive the information you need to silence your mind and read what is there to be read.
@Minyatur

Instead of starting an endless debate, i would like to ask a question, if you dont mind.
Do you really not understand what i mean?

I find it hard to believe that we re so far apart on that honestly...
(04-05-2017, 09:45 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-05-2017, 12:55 AM)reedfish Wrote: [ -> ]"intellectual pursuit" is contemplation and an ongoing effort to gain new and deeper insights on experience you have already gathered. This is good and valuable work just as valuable as the life experiences that fuel the desire to pursue intellectual understanding. For what is "intellectual understanding" but UNDERSTANDING!!! "Understanding" is the fruit of intellectual pursuit that becomes permanently imprinted on the spirit as a KNOWING. This is a quantitative and qualitative increase in the wisdom of the entity and is as valuable and viable as any other "experience" or "action". Contemplation is a form of meditation that is just one of many forms that "meditation" can take for an entity. The form of meditation chosen results from numerous inputs, and will change as needs, longings and insights change. YOU are the sole judge of the rightness and fitness of the meditative path you travel. Follow your inner compass and you will follow the path you were meant to travel.

I have to say that i disagree!
Intellectual understanding is the illusion of understanding as opposed to understanding.
No amount of intellectual research will bring more than shallow and superficial "knowledge".

No entity would be able to gain any deeper insight exclusively by the intellect, even the most intellectual person will have "intellect free" moments.
The intellect can only stay inside his tiny little "box", only within its own construct of assumptions and thus has no access to deeper knowledge.
Thought is always an abstraction, and in that abstracted construct you would only use the "ingredients" you perceive as important. Everything you perceive as unimportant or dont even notice will not be part of your abstraction, so you have no possibility to access deeper information except what you already have.

The intellect is just a tiny little part of our consciousness, there is nothing bad about it, but if we restrict ourselves to that exclusively, we limit our consciousness to a tiny little consciousness.

There is no judgement involved, just naming things as they are.
When somebody feels that is the right way at the moment, fine, go for it!
But i think its good to realize there are many restrictions and limitations on that path!

As for meditation and contemplation, well, those ate just words and many people use them differently.
Contemplation is not a form of meditation in its true sense, at let not in my definition.

In tantric yoga for example, meditation is the state of absolute no-thought and a connection to the inner self that you EVENTUALLY can reach through practicing meditation, they dont even call "sitting still" meditation.
Its mostly referred to as "silent meditation" intending a state of inner stillness and no-thought.
Contemplation however has a certain "subject" or "object" that you try to view and examine on a inner level.

Just to explain my definition of meditation as well as the "yogic" definition.
In that sense i would not view anything that uses visualization, sounds or the likes as meditation.

I would define meditation only a "silent meditation" or aiming for stillness. Im pretty sure thats what Ra and Quo speak of also.
Not sure if you te familiar with the Quo channelings, but in 4 out of 10 channelings they mention the importance of realizing that the intellect is not a good instrument to progress on the spiritual path.

I still think its perfectly valuable and just the right path for some, its just a very slow route that doesnt lead very deep.

>> illusion of understanding

This is an oxymoron. There is understanding, or there is no understanding. How one comes to understanding is their path. STS and STO eventually come to the same understanding - but by EXTREMELY different paths. An intellectual path is a VERY efficacious one for those are intellectually inclined. For those who are not, it is ... well ... "not". Meditation has many purposes, but most pursue it for very practical reasons. It's usefulness to the incarnated entity depends are many factors. What is the "purpose" of meditation? Is it "stress reduction"? "improved health"? or the path of the adept? For meditation can actually lead to MORE stress, and even worse health depending on the intent and the skill (or lack thereof) of the meditator. Going "deep" can actually be potentially hazardous as the tale of the STO who was captured by STS into dark time/space demonstrates. This is not a general prohibition of course because this is not a general hazard for most. The point is, that meditation is not a "silver bullet" but a path to understanding - and not the only one. It is "a" path - and every individual will discover through their own experience the efficaciousness and practicality of that path - as well as others. When you attempt to discourage those who intellectually inclined to follow the path that they have chosen, you may be attempting to substitute your judgment for theirs. Ra was very conscientious about not violating the Law of Confusion, and allowing maximum freedom of choice for the individual. To the extent that we too grow in wisdom and "understanding", we too will become concerned about same.
(04-05-2017, 11:15 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]@Minyatur

Instead of starting an endless debate, i would like to ask a question, if you dont mind.
Do you really not understand what i mean?

I find it hard to believe that we re so far apart on that honestly...

I get what you hint at but I find it paradoxal to use the intellectual mind to discard itself as unimportant in what is an intellectual process. This is why I speak of the relation in-between conscious and unconscious mind as they both work through intellect and that silence is a mean to listen to the unconscious' mind intellect which allows the conscious' mind intellect to grow.

I don't think you can seek nor heal without using the intellectual mind, because like I said, all you will find is to sit in unchanging stillness to go back to the same previous states of yourself and patterns of your soul unchanged and i think this is more my point. I get that you hint at a form of imbalance but I am not sure you describe the imbalance in a manner that helps resolving it. I think what you truly hint at is an expansion of the intellectual seeking into more dimensions of itself and not without any dimension to itself.

So I see with and no without. 2D was an experience without these intellectual processes which finds harvest in reaching them. Even after death we do a review of our lifetimes from a wider perspective and analyze them in intellectual processes to refine our being and what it manifests. I'd say its important to know there's more than what is known but not to drop the seeking of knowing as all things are manifestations of the Creator's seeking to know Itself.

It's a bit like healing one's inner child. The child was unable to heal itself from how it was and what you have acquired since then is what allows you to apply a different perspective, full in knowledge, to this past state which you are now able to help through the growth you've had. If you can't know better than your child self, then you will be as stuck as it was with the same catalyst. It is well to note that what creates so much disharmony within this space is confusion, and as such a clear view that is not confused resolves most things. If your child self feared to never receive the love it needs for example, then you either need to hold the convinction that love is in quite great abundance to resolve this fear or that it already contains all the love it needs within to resolve the attachment to the outer reality that allowed you to be hurt in the first place, to see and feel yourself as whole aleviates the perception of otherwise. Applying love on the fear won't resolve it, you require the opposite of fear which is faith in knowing that all is well. Otherwise you ease it for a time without resolving it and it will reappear within the cycles of your life.



tl;dr : There's love/wisdom and wisdom/love and as such love and wisdom can't be separate. Each has its own leaning which is well.
I agree the note of humility needed in the manifold is equal to surrender or intellectually grasping we know nothing. Bows to the creators majesty.
Mental and emotional pain results from a "belief" about a past experience. In order to alter the pain, the belief must be altered. How is that possible? Indeed, it is not possible to "directly" alter a belief simply because such alteration is desired. That belief arose from an evaluation of past experience. What is needed is a "new evaluation" to replace the old one that is CONVINCING to the subconscious mind. The new one becomes convincing to the subconscious not because of any inherent truth or falsity of the new "conclusion", but rather is the new interpretation energetically more POWERFUL - does it vibrate FASTER than one currently in place? This vibration is a measure of how much "doubt" there is about the new "conclusion". Belief can be altered instantly through insight or revelation - that moment when intellect says AH HA!!!! I UNDERSTAND!!!! If this moment of newly acquired insight is powerful enough, complete alteration of the old belief is possible. However, rarely are stubborn old beliefs removed this "easily". Normally there is only "partial" insight - partial revelation and some accompanying doubt. Even partial revelation can alter experience - but only partially. This is where affirmation and visualization can "take up the slack" so to speak. New and desired "conclusions" can be energized over time and strengthened, even in the presence of intellectual "doubt". As experience changes - even if slowly, gradually the doubt shrinks. This is where meditation can be MOST helpful, and since intellectual pursuit alone will rarely dislodge stubborn old beliefs all on it's own, is perhaps the reason why intellectual pursuit "alone" is most often inadequate for most people.
Well, what can i say?
I guess i can only offer my honest feelings.

I would wish that you understand my intention.
Its not that i want to be right and i dont want to prove you wrong!
Honestly, there is a love in me for you, especially for Minyatur since i ve known him for some time now.

I am actually trying to be helpful, but i tealize i am not, and i have the impression there is just no way of getting through :/

To explain where i am coming from and why i speak of this so "passionately":

I am not too young anymore. until i was in my early thirties, i was a very rational person and on a highly inttelectual path of seeking.
I took me many years to realize that i wont lead me very far and even more years to finf the fear that "forced" me on that road. But eventually i could leave it behind and enter a more heart centered path.

Not only from my experience but also from many i ve watched over the years, i really believe the intellectual road is a path that most seekers sooner or later outgrow.
It has its place and there is no judgement involved, just the observation that it doesnt lead very deep.

Thats at least my experience and i am trying to help here.

But i guess, its just not pissible the way i tried so far.
And i must say, i just give it up now :/

@reedfish
sorry to confront you with this on your eightth post, but ive been having this discussion for months now in variations

Sorry, if i sound frustrated, but i really am...
>> ive been having this discussion for months now in variations

What is your aim? Why are you frustrated? If the intellectual path doesn't work for you that is perfectly valid. It doesn't work well for the vast majority either. I found the Ra material just over 2 weeks ago and tore through all five volumes, finishing the last one yesterday. Most of it was already "known" - but there were some good insights making the read VERY worthwhile. There are exceptions to every "rule". The intellectual path has worked very well for me, and has brought me profound, almost ineffable peace of mind. Meditation has never worked well for me. I've had more than one psychic tell me this was a pre-incarnational decision to install the toughest of Masterlock locks on my consciousness. An explanation from one of them: "If you were given even a 'thread', you'd pull the whole ceiling down! - and ruin your mission". I am indeed a "wanderer". Another said it had to be "all or nothing" - that my powers would be "fantastic", and that would not be tolerated in this world. All I could do was "roll my eyes" along with everyone else. You can't make this s*** up! That said, if I really wanted to cut the lock, I KNOW I could. But life has never co-operated in making it easy to meditate. After awhile I stopped fighting it.
I would advise pondering the meaning of these 3 verbs:

1- thinking
2- believing
3- knowing

Thinking is a general hypothesis. Believing is considering the hypothesis to be true. Knowing is proving the hypothesis.

Any 5 year old can imagine a scenario in which any "proven" thing turns out to be innaccurate. For example, humans live for 1 million years. And they dream for 100 years at a time. So, your entire life is a dream. When you'll wake up, you'll realize this universe does not really exist and you'll be in a whole different reality with purple dinosaurs with pink stripes.

I can't prove that, of course. But the beauty of it is you can't disprove it either Smile And it's just an exagerrated example, I'm sure you could come up with something more "credible" that still puts a big ???????? on everything we think we "know".

Sooooo... Be careful when you say you "know" something Wink

"Knowing is delusion;
Not knowing is confusion"

Step out of the knowing/not knowing duality and the problem is solved!

*High-fives* Agua del Cielo
(04-05-2017, 08:38 PM)kevn Wrote: [ -> ]I would advise pondering the meaning of these 3 verbs:

1- thinking
2- believing
3- knowing

Thinking is a general hypothesis. Believing is considering the hypothesis to be true. Knowing is proving the hypothesis.

Any 5 year old can imagine a scenario in which any "proven" thing turns out to be innaccurate. For example, humans live for 1 million years. And they dream for 100 years at a time. So, your entire life is a dream. When you'll wake up, you'll realize this universe does not really exist and you'll be in a whole different reality with purple dinosaurs with pink stripes.

I can't prove that, of course. But the beauty of it is you can't disprove it either Smile And it's just an exagerrated example, I'm sure you could come up with something more "credible" that still puts a big ???????? on everything we think we "know".

Sooooo... Be careful when you say you "know" something Wink

"Knowing is delusion;
Not knowing is confusion"

Step out of the knowing/not knowing duality and the problem is solved!

*High-fives* Agua del Cielo

*High-fives* Agua del Cielo

kenv - greetings!

I don't have to be right, I don't have to be wrong. I just have to be. How do I know you "know", and how do you know I know or don't know? And then when we get done debating that, the question becomes "why does it matter?" I either know or don't know, and I have no idea how much I know. What I do "know" is I have a working hypothesis on how the world works that is under constant refinement that satisfies me in the moment. Then again, I could be totally wrong!
Reedfish,
its not about right or wrong.

I realize this is impossible to convey as a theory or concept, at least very hard.
It has to be experienced.

An example of what i mean (when i say "you" i dont mean only you):

As long as you are ( for whatever teason) identified with the intellectual mind, you will stay "in there" if ever possible.
Whatever we might discuss here then, you would view with the intellect.
If the identification would be so strong you would not be able to imagine consciousness without thought.
You would probably think that you eitherfall asleep or become unconscious.

Now, thats the very purpose of meditation, silent meditation (aiming for stillness).
To still the mind, to loosen that identification and to open yourself for a greater consciousness.

When you, in meditation, experience a state of non-thought, you will without s shadow of doubt experience a few things:
1) awareness or consciousness does NOT rely on thought, not at all
2) thought actually is what makes awareness impossible
3) you will open for your greater consciousness, gradually

If you do silent meditation for some time, its impossible to not agree on this.
But if you do not meditate, if you refuse to let go of the intellectual control, you will just not be able to make this experience.
And, honestly, do you see what this would mean, if it were true?
There would absolutely be no point in discussing this.
As long as you insist on restricting yourself to the intellect, you would just not know, what i am talking about. But there would also be no way to explain it.

I mean whats the very point of debating with someone, as an example, if there is "life afterdeath" or not? You would have to experience it to know and no amount of debating will take you there.

Now, experiencing a greater consciousness in a state of stillness is not that hard, but withoutexperiencing it, any debate is pointless.
Just like vegetarians debating over t-bone steaks.

There is no judgement involved orintended.
If its the path for the moment, perfect!
I was on that road, too, i perfectly understand this.
Its always a matter of "what do i need at this very moment?"

You might perceive this as arrogant, maybe it even is.
But i think clear direct words areneeded here, a diplomatic cautious approach will not help anybody.

Let me say two more things:
I entered this thread because kevn was making a very good and important point.
And i came to support his point, since i felt you were disecting and distorting the important insight he shared.
And many people read thesethreads, not only the members.
So i sometimes feel the need to really support.

Another thing is, instead of endlessly debating if or if not the intellect is a useful tool in seeking, i would prefer to move considerably deeper and rather offerhelp or exchange ideas HOW one can out of this restriction.
But instead the arguments and statements get ever more daring in order to (thats my impression) to defend the defense :/

I dont know if you re familiar with the Quo channelings (they are really worth reading and available here). And i dont wanna instrumentalize quotes to prove my point.
But to them this very information (about the intellect) seems to be very important, they speak about ever and ever again, that its the very hope of the entity when entering the incarnation to realize the intellect is just not a useful tool on the spiritual path.
You might want to check these out!
They also cover many many interesting and (compared with thra material) more "practical life" oriented ideas!
(04-06-2017, 02:57 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]Reedfish,
its not about right or wrong.

I realize this is impossible to convey as a theory or concept, at least very hard.
It has to be experienced.

An example of what i mean (when i say "you" i dont mean only you):

As long as you are ( for whatever teason) identified with the intellectual mind, you will stay "in there" if ever possible.
Whatever we might discuss here then, you would view with the intellect.
If the identification would be so strong you would not be able to imagine consciousness without thought.
You would probably think that you eitherfall asleep or become unconscious.

Now, thats the very purpose of meditation, silent meditation (aiming for stillness).
To still the mind, to loosen that identification and to open yourself for a greater consciousness.

When you, in meditation, experience a state of non-thought, you will without s shadow of doubt experience a few things:
1) awareness or consciousness does NOT rely on thought, not at all
2) thought actually is what makes awareness impossible
3) you will open for your greater consciousness, gradually

If you do silent meditation for some time, its impossible to not agree on this.
But if you do not meditate, if you refuse to let go of the intellectual control, you will just not be able to make this experience.
And, honestly, do you see what this would mean, if it were true?
There would absolutely be no point in discussing this.
As long as you insist on restricting yourself to the intellect, you would just not know, what i am talking about. But there would also be no way to explain it.

I mean whats the very point of debating with someone, as an example, if there is "life afterdeath" or not? You would have to experience it to know and no amount of debating will take you there.

Now, experiencing a greater consciousness in a state of stillness is not that hard, but withoutexperiencing it, any debate is pointless.
Just like vegetarians debating over t-bone steaks.

There is no judgement involved orintended.
If its the path for the moment, perfect!
I was on that road, too, i perfectly understand this.
Its always a matter of "what do i need at this very moment?"

You might perceive this as arrogant, maybe it even is.
But i think clear direct words areneeded here, a diplomatic cautious approach will not help anybody.

Let me say two more things:
I entered this thread because kevn was making a very good and important point.
And i came to support his point, since i felt you were disecting and distorting the important insight he shared.
And many people read thesethreads, not only the members.
So i sometimes feel the need to really support.

Another thing is, instead of endlessly debating if or if not the intellect is a useful tool in seeking, i would prefer to move considerably deeper and rather offerhelp or exchange ideas HOW one can out of this restriction.
But instead the arguments and statements get ever more daring in order to (thats my impression) to defend the defense :/

I dont know if you re familiar with the Quo channelings (they are really worth reading and available here). And i dont wanna instrumentalize quotes to prove my point.
But to them this very information (about the intellect) seems to be very important, they speak about ever and ever again, that its the very hope of the entity when entering the incarnation to realize the intellect is just not a useful tool on the spiritual path.
You might want to check these out!
They also cover many many interesting and (compared with thra material) more "practical life" oriented ideas!

Quo has "their" opinion on the matter, I have mine. You're completely "right" of course - and I know you're "right" as well. Apparently what baffles you is someone whose "faith" in the correctness of what you're saying is so strong, so unquestioning, so un-curious about experiencing what you apparently (I could be "not right" Wink ) think is "important" to experience, yet unimaginably and nonchalantly says "not now, I'm busy".

>> But to them this very information (about the intellect) seems to be very important, they speak about ever and ever again, that its the very hope of the entity when entering the incarnation to realize the intellect is just not a useful tool on the spiritual path.

So you're saying the "veil of forgetfulness" is not useful? I'll question Quo's opinion, but am a bit more hesitant to question the Logoi's opinion! I'm with you though! The Creator could be out of his friggin mind!

I'm 54, and have been pursuing metaphysics (among other things) aggressively since I was 22. My library fills an entire bedroom. And oh have I tried to meditate! I had a few "flashes", a couple of "glimpses" - enough to satisfy me about the "truth" of everything. I once after an untold period of sitting and clearing my mind, once felt the little ant walking around my third eye chakra. In my twenties I could sit in full lotus position (loosened my knees to the point of instability!) I'm a trained hypnotist, talked to the higher selves of numerous people. The message for **ME** (not for you and not for anyone else) was always the same - "DON'T BOTHER - too dangerous for YOU". I **FELT** this and was told this on NUMEROUS occasions. When the time is right, the veil will lift without effort - or so I was repeatedly told. At this point I don't really care anymore. This is not a world that supports this kind of pursuit - and I didn't need meditation for anything other than ripping the veil of forgetfulness into a thousand tiny little pieces and recovering the POWER I know I can have. (Something the Buddha disapproves of anyway.) My faith/knowledge of the greater ineffable existence is truly unquestioning. For me it's as real in my gut as this laptop I'm typing on - more so in fact. It's not even up for debate. For me, the intellectual material available like Ra, Seth and countless more has helped to fill the void in the meantime. (Milarepa is my hero.) It's a very POOR substitute - but I am deeply grateful for it nevertheless. I crave and consume heavy protein all the time - my wife makes nothing else. Someone is always shoving a beer in my hand (not my wife she doesn't drink) - and I almost never drink alone. I drink to get along. I prayed for a metaphysical mate and got one all right - the most tight lipped one you'll ever meet who says her only job is to "protect me" - after we were married and she moved from Ukraine (an aggressive matchmaker set us up - I felt I had no "choice" in the matter. It was a 'take it or leave it' deal, and it was clear to me there would be no other offers forthcoming). REALLY??? You can't make this s*** up!!! If a life was EVER planned to actually discourage meditation to the greatest extent possible - it's MINE.
I am by the way not suggesting to "believe" what i say.
Since all i can share on a forum is a concept, which is only a means to an end.

It has to be experienced, otherwise the information is pretty useless.
Thats all i am about.
I try to offer a "direction" for exploration.

Like with equaling consciousness with intellect.
I know you didnt say this, just as an example:

We could debate endlessly if consciousness equals intellect, probably forever.
But entering silent meditation for just a couple of minutes would directly let you experience awareness and consciousness without intellect.
So there would be no need anymore to debate.

Another thing is, if you re having diffulty entering that state.
But instead of "defending" or rather advertising the intellectual approach, we could mutually share experiences and tips how to overcome difficulties.
I also had a hard time entering stillness for quite some time, and i guess most people here also know this.
So instead of what i perceive as endless and to a degree pointless discussion, we could move along together and support us mutually on our path.

Spiritual growth is not a ladder one climbs and one is higher than the other.
I perceive it more as a map. One has explored Denmark, another might be concentrating on South America, some explore parts of the whole map, other explore only one city but to an extreme extent.

I really think its about experiencing. Not about abstracting it and playing with the theory, at least not for me.
I like to experience love, i see absolutely no point in thinking about love.

One can think about unity and oneness, but one should not forget that thinking about oneness is actually the exact opposite of oneness.

@minyatur
i dont know if contemplating oneness leads to oneness necessarily.
I think it has to be realized sooner or later that seperation is the "opposite" of oneness (in fact, oneness does not have an opposite, only illusory opposites) and the intellect is an instrument of seperation.
I experienced oneness the first time without ever "thinking"of oneness before, so i dont think that is necessary.
Considering oneness, i would say oneness can be experienced, when the entity is ready for the experience.
Not sure if you do this, i sometimes get the impression, but if you identify with the intellect completely, this will most likely be the very thing that blocks the experience of unity, since your whole identity would collapse, and you would most likely not be able to allow this.
I mean, when one experiences oneness, the identity collapses anyway, but if there is an unwillingness to even let go of the intellect to a degree (im not talking about completely, but here a couple minutes, there and hour and so on), one would not even experience the connectedness that can be felt here in 3D, how should one possibly experience oneness then?
The only thing that might help would be a real high dosage of drugs then :/
Which could create a whole lot of other problems with such a background...
@reedfish

I really would differtiate intellectual understanding and what i would called direct knowing.

You can intellectually understand the concept of oneness.
But unless you experience oneness, it will be just the illusion of understanding.
That was what i meant.

Or more down to earth, you can read anything that has been written about love, you can understand thousands of concepts about love, but you will still not know a thing about love.
You have to experience it!
(04-06-2017, 07:17 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]@minyatur
i dont know if contemplating oneness leads to oneness necessarily.
I think it has to be realized sooner or later that seperation is the "opposite" of oneness (in fact, oneness does not have an opposite, only illusory opposites) and the intellect is an instrument of seperation.
I experienced oneness the first time without ever "thinking"of oneness before, so i dont think that is necessary.
Considering oneness, i would say oneness can be experienced, when the entity is ready for the experience.

As you are veiled it does require a form of seeking. Sincerity to see/know/feel (all attributes of perception of thought through whatever center of awareness) is key.

You might not have thought of the word "oneness", but this does not mean you did not have thought that led in this direction initially. Oneness itself is a thought and based on the Ra material's cosmology the entire of infinity is but one unified thought and we ourselves are dancing thoughts. To remove all notion of thought is pure void and nothing more, which has its uses as it is a blank state that allows all thought without resistance nor constructs.

(04-06-2017, 07:17 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure if you do this, i sometimes get the impression, but if you identify with the intellect completely, this will most likely be the very thing that blocks the experience of unity, since your whole identity would collapse, and you would most likely not be able to allow this.

I am what I am in my distortions and also what I am not outside of them, I am Infinity and the Creator and I always have been and will ever be. That's a glimpse of what I identify with although the essence of it is not of words.

(04-06-2017, 07:17 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, when one experiences oneness, the identity collapses anyway, but if there is an unwillingness to even let go of the intellect to a degree (im not talking about completely, but here a couple minutes, there and hour and so on), one would not even experience the connectedness that can be felt here in 3D, how should one possibly experience oneness then?
The only thing that might help would be a real high dosage of drugs then :/
Which could create a whole lot of other problems with such a background...

I don't think I have dismissed the usefulness of silent meditation and did more of explaining its purpose.

I found much with high dosage of drugs and I can assure they never created problems, always most healthy, insightful and in-depth experiences which allowed me to crystalize more and more each passing day my higher essence within this world just as unveil my truer being. They offered a window which I work much without. But yeah if you're loaded with heavy traumas then it makes it somewhat dangerous to take such things because they won't allow you to avoid facing yourself to find acceptance for what you have none and if you are unable and resist, then you will hurt yourself and fragment your mind in rejection of facets of it.

I think you tend to seee too much your distortions or past distortions within others. You see symptoms of wounds you've had which can be there for varieties of different causes than the wounds you've had. Also I think you also somewhat narrow down what thoughts are when they are so much more. My leaning toward intellectual seeking mainly derives from the veil I programmed and desired, if you read my numerology or birth chart you'd see a strong intent for this leaning which relates to the role I am here to play in relation to others. Slowly and surely I transcend this programming more and more so I don't really see an issue and I love what I am and everything I have been so far in this life and I have no doubt I will love everything I become at each transfornation, always in the image of my soul within the conditions of my life, truly magnificent, and my soul in the image of the One.

Its never black and white as separate but intertwined. You can try to outgrow intellect but you will find it is a portion of this density just as every following one until the late 7.

[Image: 1200px-Yin_yang.svg.png]



We're just discussing perspectives which ever are of a relative nature. All is well. Each is love/light light/love.
Hmm, not sure how to proceed :/
I honestly caanot really understand why keep insisting on that.

Let me ask a few question, if you dont mind, for me to beeter understand:

- are you practicing silent meditation or do you experience inner stillness or a state of non-thought (for at least a few minutes, not talking bout the pause between two thoughts) by other means?

-if not, would you be willing to try, just to gain some common ground and mutual understanding?

just in case you have difficulty with this, pleasesay so, i will gladly share some methods that could be helpful!
I just want to make sure we talk about the same thing!
(04-06-2017, 11:02 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]- are you practicing silent meditation or do you experience inner stillness or a state of non-thought (for at least a few minutes, not talking bout the pause between two thoughts) by other means?

Pretty much daily here and there. I got a 50m train ride for work followed by a 25m subway ride which I find perfect for this on weekdays, especially in the morning.  I either aim at inner stillness or inner movement with those usually.

I don't really struggle all that much with emptying my mind except on particular occasions.  I doubt you can find someone who falls asleep as quickly as I do each day. I can just drop in my bed, close my eyes and lose grip instantly to fall into an abyss if I want to which I usually do when I go to bed.



About the intellectual mind, I see it as a portion of what I am and not the whole of what I am.
okay, sorry, so it seems i misunderstood you.
I thought you were saying the intellect is needed to be conscious as well as in order to access the subconscious.
If you are familiar with the state of non-thinking awareness and choose the intellectual path for whatever reason, why not.
The way i understood you, was, that you re denying that thought is not needed for awareness or being conscious as well as denying that a wider, broader greater consciousness arises, once you exit the intellect.
I have obviously gotten you wrong and apologize for that!
(04-06-2017, 07:35 AM)Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]@reedfish

I really would differtiate intellectual understanding and what i would called direct knowing.

You can intellectually understand the concept of oneness.
But unless you experience oneness, it will be just the illusion of understanding.
That was what i meant.

Or more down to earth, you can read anything that has been written about love, you can understand thousands of concepts about love, but you will still not know a thing about love.
You have to experience it!

There is no doubt about what you are saying. If you've never swam in the ocean, there is no way words alone can convey the experience. Love in my viewpoint is ACCEPTANCE in its profoundest sense. The hard work of third density is learning to have that "acceptance of self" in every waking moment. I have read in many Buddhist texts on meditation that "blissing out" in meditation is a major distraction, and if you persist in your discipline, this eventually passes. I am supremely confident at my now advancing age that I did not enter this density at this time to spend a lot of time exploring inner reality through meditation. If that was the goal, I would have picked Tibet about 500 years ago to incarnate. (Maybe I did!) I am DEFINITELY here for the harvest. According to Ra there was as many as 60 million wanderers incarnate in the early 1980s. That number is probably double that now - so there really is NOTHING special about me in that sense. He/They pointed out numerous times throughout the work, that the "veil of forgetfulness" was a common irritant of nearly all wanderers. We KNOW there is more than our 5 senses deliver in a very profound sense. My biggest frustration is also one shared by most wanderers - identification of the MISSION, the reason we came here at this time in the first place. I still haven't figured out to my satisfaction why I'm here. I'm here to SERVE, but feel like General Patton sitting on the sidelines, (Ra had a great rant on him!) frustrated as hell. For all I know, I'm the backup to the backup to the backup, and maybe I chose that role in order to explore detachment and humility even further. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. I can't tell you how strongly I identify with Don Elkins in that regard. According to Carla, it was only when the Ra material was being disseminated, that Don (a 5th or 6th density wanderer) "FINALLY" felt that he was living his purpose, his reason for being here in the first place. The way the story ended is VERY sobering. This is the BIG leagues, and not for the trepid.
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