Bring4th

26.21:

"Questioner:
Could you give us an example from Hiroshima or Nagasaki of
how this is done?

Ra:
I am Ra. Those who were destroyed, not by radiation, but by the
trauma of the energy release, found not only the body/mind/spirit complex
made unviable, but also a disarrangement of that unique vibratory complex
you have called the spirit complex, which we understand as a
mind/body/spirit complex, to be completely disarranged without possibility of
re-integration. This would be the loss to the Creator of part of the
Creator and thus we were given permission, not to stop the events, but to
ensure the survival of the, shall we say, disembodied mind/body/spirit
complex."

Is Ra stating here that a soul could be so disarrenged that it would be impossible to re-integrate it? And also that this would be a loss to the Creator (implying that the creator can actually loose something, let alone a soul that is)?

Aside from pure Being, everything that exists is a thought-form, a construct, an aggregate.  What is aggregated can be dis-aggregated.  Anything created can be destroyed.  Only Being is real in the ultimate sense.

I think of Spirit as the Creator, and soul (with its individual attributes and qualities) as a thought-form which Spirit animates.  Spirit is the puppeteer's hand, soul is the puppet the Spirit is pretending to be, for a time.  

Every puppet produces a different set of experience for the Creator.  If a soul is destroyed, the experiences it would have added to Creation are lost, but the One Creator is, of course, unharmed in any way.

I think it's true to the extent you'd say the same of a human ego that dies and loses the continuation of that path and ability to interact with its loved ones.

Worst it'd get is a form of death until the spirit complex reforms alongside a new Creation after the passing of this one into a new experience of the continuation of the exact same stream of experience. So there wouldn't be any loss of the Creator of the Creator outside the perspective of its other-selves much like a family lives with the hole of the loss of a family member.

There's also higher aspects to yourself than your 3D beingness. You have your higher self for example, or even just the Logos since its at his level there'd be a loss, so in my view the sole and only reason you'd need the Confederation's help is because those higher aspects would accept that fate as part of their path while leaving to those who do not find such acceptance the ability to paint your path with their own wills.

Death is transformation, always. There's a loss of identity, but the energy remains and will carry on its infinite path.

But in the perspective that if a normal being dies, it will get re-born and if a ego dies, it will realize "Nirvana", what then will happen to a spirit that gets destroyed? And why is this undesireable?

(05-03-2017, 09:14 PM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]But in the perspective that if a normal being dies, it will get re-born and if a ego dies, it will realize "Nirvana", what then will happen to a spirit that gets destroyed? And why is this undesireable?

You could see it as that nothing is sought to be overcome. Everything is rightful and "Nirvana" is both the initial and ending state from which all spring forth and all return.

I think we see a difference here because Ra resonates more with death at the level of where it stands than what it is at our own level down here. But it's really similar to the loss of the mind complex upon death except at the Octave level. In both cases it is an infinitely small portion of your infinite time/space space/time continuum of your greater wholeness and yet may always be seen as an infinitely huge portion of what you identify with.

Everything can be seen as infinitely small in contrast to Infinity, yet those with you where you stand will always be the truer other-selves in your eyes and for whom your emotions will most resonate with. These lost other-selves will be reborn among other other-selves and will walk the same stairways and most likely eventually rejoin with those they lost after having lived something unique of their own with other souls. Nothing is lost, something other and unique is born and all will rejoin.

(05-03-2017, 09:52 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-03-2017, 09:14 PM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]But in the perspective that if a normal being dies, it will get re-born and if a ego dies, it will realize "Nirvana", what then will happen to a spirit that gets destroyed? And why is this undesireable?

You could see it as that nothing is sought to be overcome. Everything is rightful and "Nirvana" is both the initial and ending state from which all spring forth and all return.

I think we see a difference here because Ra resonates more with death at the level of where it stands than what it is at our own level down here. But it's really similar to the loss of the mind complex upon death except at the Octave level. In both cases it is an infinitely small portion of your infinite time/space space/time continuum of your greater wholeness and yet may always be seen as an infinitely huge portion of what you identify with.

Everything can be seen as infinitely small in contrast to Infinity, yet those with you where you stand will always be the truer other-selves in your eyes and for whom your emotions will most resonate with. These lost other-selves will be reborn among other other-selves and will walk the same stairways and most likely eventually rejoin with those they lost after having lived something unique of their own with other souls. Nothing is lost, something other and unique is born and all will rejoin.

It's just that Ra states so clearly that some (spirits) where "destroyed" and that it would be "the loss to the Creator" and at the same time you're saying that nothing is destroyed and that nothing is lost. Would you please explain to me in a different manner so that I may understand? If something is not destroyed, then why is it said "those who where destroyed.."? And if there is no loss to the creator, then why is it said that it would be a "loss to the Creator"?

(05-03-2017, 10:26 PM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]It's just that Ra states so clearly that some (spirits) where "destroyed" and that it would be "the loss to the Creator" and at the same time you're saying that nothing is destroyed and that nothing is lost. Would you please explain to me in a different manner so that I may understand? If something is not destroyed, then why is it said "those who where destroyed.."? And if there is no loss to the creator, then why is it said that it would be a "loss to the Creator"?

---

26.23 Questioner: Could you please give me an example from, let us say, Hiroshima or Nagasaki of how this is done?

Ra: I am Ra. Those who were destroyed, not by radiation, but by the trauma of the energy release, found not only the body/mind/spirit complex made unviable, but also a disarrangement of that unique vibratory complex you have called the spirit complex, which we understand as a mind/body/spirit complex, to be completely disarranged without possibility of re-integration. This would be the loss to the Creator of part of the Creator and thus we were given permission, not to stop the events, but to ensure the survival of the, shall we say, disembodied mind/body/spirit complex. This we did in those events which you mention, losing no spirit or portion or holograph or microcosm of the macrocosmic Infinite One.

---

Keep in mind higher density beings can move through time, thus can snatch beings up before they become depatternized by the nuclear explosion. Ra states right here that no spirit was lost during those nuclear events. Higher density beings have literally infinite time in which to retrieve beings before nuclear destruction.

And if the destruction was allowed to occur, it would essentially just be instant nirvana. "The dissolution into nothingness is the dissolution into unity, for there is no nothingness." The loss to the creator would be the abridgment of free will robbing that being of its spiritual journey. Free will is paramount to the Logos.

I also wanted to add that when they say "beings that were destroyed had no possibility of reintegration" they mean they had no possibility of reintegrating themselves. A sixth density being can reintegrate one.

Consider the following exchange which makes this clear:

---

26.21 Questioner: Then what you did, I am assuming, then, is to create an air of mystery with the UFO phenomena, as we call it, and then by telepathy send many messages that could be either accepted or rejected under the— following, of course, the Law of One so that the population would start thinking seriously about the consequences of what they were doing. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is partially correct. There are other services we may perform. Firstly, the integration of souls or spirits, if you will, in the event of use of these nuclear devices in your space/time continuum. This the Confederation has already done.

---

It seems clear from this exchange that sixth density beings have the ability to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, so to speak.

(05-03-2017, 10:26 PM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]It's just that Ra states so clearly that some (spirits) where "destroyed" and that it would be "the loss to the Creator" and at the same time you're saying that nothing is destroyed and that nothing is lost. Would you please explain to me in a different manner so that I may understand? If something is not destroyed, then why is it said "those who where destroyed.."? And if there is no loss to the creator, then why is it said that it would be a "loss to the Creator"?

A bit like anagogy said just above, it relates to the Logos. The spirit would be loss from within our Logos and would re-form alongside another one as still a harvest of all past Octaves but also as a harvest of its initial growth within this Octave it repeats as part of another Creation. You could say it would be lost from our shared-reality but not lost from the Source itself.

I relate it to the loss of a mind complex as it also is a loss of something the Creator is in death, to me there is little differentiation in face that the spectrum of comparison is infinite. Just as the confederation attempts at aiding the beingness across the Octave of others to survive, humans do attempt to save other humans from death just as they may feel despair at the loss of loved ones. Is it truly all that unimportant? or is it natural to empathize with what is alike your beingness being lost when it is the object of your love?

(05-03-2017, 10:43 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]It seems clear from this exchange that sixth density beings have the ability to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, so to speak.

It's also clear that the Higher Self won't do a thing to help Humpty Dumpty unless Humpty Dumpty asks for it, nor the Logos for that matter.

And our most generous sitxh density friends also had to get permission to put Humpty Dumpty back together, which implies they could have not gotten it and would have had to accept the event as it was.

(05-03-2017, 11:16 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]It's also clear that the Higher Self won't do a thing to help Humpty Dumpty unless Humpty Dumpty asks for it, nor the Logos for that matter.

And our most generous sitxh density friends also had to get permission to put Humpty Dumpty back together, which implies they could have not gotten it and would have had to accept the event as it was.

I assume such permission came from the 7th density Logos. But as Ra said, it was seen to be a loss to the creator, so thus permission was given.

I guess I just can't imagine a situation where the Logos would say, "Nah, screw em."  

(05-03-2017, 10:43 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]Ra: I am Ra. This is partially correct. There are other services we may perform. Firstly, the integration of souls or spirits, if you will, in the event of use of these nuclear devices in your space/time continuum. This the Confederation has already done.

Well, the integration may be refered to those beings that where "saved" so to speak, but still is in a grave need for healing. Consider this conversation:

"Questioner: Can you tell me the condition of the entities who were killed
in Nagasaki and Hiroshima at this time?

Ra: I am Ra. They of this trauma have not yet fully begun the healing
process. They are being helped as much as is possible."

This is refering to the beings who died of from our world (not considered a loss to the Creator), but whos spirits still was decided should be saved (because spirits who are not saved would in deed be considered a loss to the Creator). And I might add that we don't even know if they are fully recovered as of today! I wonder then what would happen to the spirits that where not allowed to be saved. Now you say that of course all spirits would be saved, but om not so sure. I mean, if they are serious about the existence of a non-re-integrateble-spirit, then one must ask how they can be so sure about this if they have never tried to re-integrate one. And how can they try to re-integrate a spirit if one was never destroyed?

Also, I would like to ask, if they have tried to re-integrate a spirit but failed, what kind of state would that spirit be in now? It sure looks like it would be left forever in a state of desperate need for healing, where no healing is possible. This might make one conclude that there is nothing left to do but to destroy the spirit to save it from an endless state of non-nirvana, that is a state of endless suffering, by destroying it (however possible the destruction of a spirit now may be. I mean, if even the spirit is destroyable, then what is there left in a creature that cannot be destroyed?).

Consider this also: "..but to ensure the survival of the, shall we say, disembodied mind/body/spirit complex.". Here the being has "died" so to speak, because it has no longer a body, thus the use of the word "disembodied" which implies that if they would not inreact to save the spririt, the spirit would not have survived. Now, what does it mean that a spirit doesn't survive? Are you sure that it is exactly the same thing as realizing Nirvana? Because if that is the case, then why not just nuke the whole planet so that all beings here can enter in to a state of endless eternal bliss? Who cares about a "spiritual journey" in Nirvana anyway? In Nirvana there is no time, no memory, no mind, no anything at all, so why would one care the slightest about some "journey"? Who would care about a "journey" when there is not even someone there to care at all? If destructions of souls are possible, there should at least be "soul destroyers" available for those beings who wish to end their suffering once and for all. And if someone is about to realize nirvana (which again is nothing but a state of pure limitles happiness) by a nuke, then who are these beings to hinder them from experiencing that?

Quote:The spirit would be loss from within our Logos and would re-form alongside another one as still a harvest of all past Octaves but also as a harvest of its initial growth within this Octave it repeats as part of another Creation.

I don't understand though, that if no dimensional being here can re-integrate them, why would the spirits somehow be re-integrated automatically by re-forming alongside another Logos? Would it be like a person who suffers bodily pain in this world, dies and discovers he has no pain in his astralbody, but can create a new physical body by getting reborn? Can a new spirit likewise be created for someone who has a broken/un-re-integratable spirit?

Would you please tell me your definitions of "Logos" and "Octave"? I have my ideas of their universal definitions but have not seen any stated clearly. I've searched for them tough...

(05-04-2017, 01:58 AM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, if they are serious about the existence of a non-re-integrateble-spirit, then one must ask how they can be so sure about this if they have never tried to re-integrate one. And how can they try to re-integrate a spirit if one was never destroyed?

They can see multiple timelines. So would be able to see the timeline where a spirit is not re-integrated.
It's strange though how a nuclear explosion would be more detrimental to a spirit than say getting shot in the head.

I've heard another philosophy that spirits go to Saturn if they want to start over.

(05-04-2017, 01:58 AM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]This is refering to the beings who died of from our world (not considered a loss to the Creator), but whos spirits still was decided should be saved (because spirits who are not saved would in deed be considered a loss to the Creator). And I might add that we don't even know if they are fully recovered as of today! I wonder then what would happen to the spirits that where not allowed to be saved. Now you say that of course all spirits would be saved, but om not so sure. I mean, if they are serious about the existence of a non-re-integrateble-spirit, then one must ask how they can be so sure about this if they have never tried to re-integrate one. And how can they try to re-integrate a spirit if one was never destroyed?

I'm not saying they weren't ever destroyed. I'm just saying in most cases, they wouldn't be because your inner being is extremely smart and would see it coming a million miles away. But in cases where they were destroyed, and reintegrated, the spirit would most likely need some serious 'therapy' so to speak. It would be traumatic regardless of reintegration.

(05-04-2017, 01:58 AM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]Also, I would like to ask, if they have tried to re-integrate a spirit but failed, what kind of state would that spirit be in now? It sure looks like it would be left forever in a state of desperate need for healing, where no healing is possible. This might make one conclude that there is nothing left to do but to destroy the spirit to save it from an endless state of non-nirvana, that is a state of endless suffering, by destroying it (however possible the destruction of a spirit now may be. I mean, if even the spirit is destroyable, then what is there left in a creature that cannot be destroyed?).

I can only share my intuition, which tells me the fundamental essence of Beingness cannot be destroyed by any means. The dream cannot kill the dreamer. It can only disarrange the character they have imagined themselves to be in the dream. That Beingness (the real dreamer) is eternal and immortal. I don't have quotes to support this, it is just a deep inner feeling I carry within my consciousness.

(05-04-2017, 01:58 AM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]Consider this also: "..but to ensure the survival of the, shall we say, disembodied mind/body/spirit complex.". Here the being has "died" so to speak, because it has no longer a body, thus the use of the word "disembodied" which implies that if they would not inreact to save the spririt, the spirit would not have survived. Now, what does it mean that a spirit doesn't survive? Are you sure that it is exactly the same thing as realizing Nirvana? Because if that is the case, then why not just nuke the whole planet so that all beings here can enter in to a state of endless eternal bliss? Who cares about a "spiritual journey" in Nirvana anyway? In Nirvana there is no time, no memory, no mind, no anything at all, so why would one care the slightest about some "journey"? Who would care about a "journey" when there is not even someone there to care at all? If destructions of souls are possible, there should at least be "soul destroyers" available for those beings who wish to end their suffering once and for all. And if someone is about to realize nirvana (which again is nothing but a state of pure limitles happiness) by a nuke, then who are these beings to hinder them from experiencing that?

Because this whole creation is about the journey not the destination, so if you shortcut the journey, you've defeated the entire purpose of creation. Creation is like an adventure, or a vacation in a way from our own eternal nature. Its like if you went on a trip around the world. Eventually you come back home to the same place you started. You're essentially saying, well why go in the first place if your just going back home (to Nirvana)?

But you see, that isn't the point, the journey is the point -- the new experience. The creator isn't going to throw away the vacation plans just because a flight was delayed. That would be a loss to the creator. The creator manifested us to go on that free will journey. These beings did not choose to end their journeys, and as such were reintegrated, to fulfill the purpose they were created for. The individual that was destroyed doesn't care whether they come back or not. The creator does (which is the deeper all knowing self).

As for somebody deliberately destroying themselves by nuke to reach nirvana, I would tend to think that would be extremely frowned upon and seen as avoidance by spiritual guides and teachers (it wouldn't be allowed). It might not even be successful and result in a fractured state where a soul was stuck in limbo for eons. Also it wouldn't even work on some beings (6D wanderers). Their denser spirits wouldn't be disintegrated by the nuclear explosion, only lower density beings with less developed spiritual complexes.

(05-03-2017, 11:20 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]I assume such permission came from the 7th density Logos. But as Ra said, it was seen to be a loss to the creator, so thus permission was given.

I guess I just can't imagine a situation where the Logos would say, "Nah, screw em."  

I think these kind of things are ruled by the Council of Saturn as they oversee this place and control sixth density beings interactions. Not saying that those are not interacting with the Logos though.

But yeah might've been unlikely that it would not be granted but it doesn't change the fact that they had to ask and that to whom they have asked were not taking care of it either. So it seems to me that it was a catalyst at their level and toward them, which made it their responsability to seek to act upon it.

I don't think the Logos would've had an attitude that says "screw them" and more that at its level the constrast is much alike how a sixth density being's awareness would process the death of a human identity. It won't fall into despair and have a sense of loss from the greater overview of where it stands, yet it may empathize with the sense of loss of those who stand of the same level where the death takes place. To it, it'd be part of infinity, it'd be transformation that leads to renewal and a unique experience. Each comes from infinitely far already, everything that happens within the Octave may be seen as big from within it yet also as infinitely small in contrast to that it is one of infinite.

By acting they kept these souls as part of their reality, within this one Creation, perhaps forcing them to distill the trauma in ways they wouldn't have had to had they be let to reform themselves from the Source themselves naturally. To keep them in their own eyesights they prevented other stories and while the foundation of poparity is intent, they can't truly know whether that was for the best and instead that it was the desire of their heart with the mirror of self seen in other-self and that those with the greater overview allowed them to much like they were allowed to interact with the Egyptians although they found regret later on in how they did. I personally felt this exact way in contemplation that a soul could harvest at the Octave level whilst in 3D, it felt like deep loss yet it has to be rationalized as that there would be no loss but instead the continuation of a path which the event would shape in a unique fashion.

All catalyst, kinda always.

This is from introduction of The Law of One book:

Quote:Your  spirit resides  within a shell. The shell may be removed, but that is no matter. The spirit does not  perish. (from Hatonn channelings)

(05-03-2017, 09:14 PM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]But in the perspective that if a normal being dies, it will get re-born and if a ego dies, it will realize "Nirvana", what then will happen to a spirit that gets destroyed? And why is this undesireable?

The illusory perspective of the Creator that we are would be dispelled and so one would find itself back being the Creator once again without illusions. Your point of view would simply shift back to being the One Infinite Creator.

So the Creator looses the opportunity to fully explore the creation from the unique point of view that you are.

(05-04-2017, 06:43 PM)Patrick Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-03-2017, 09:14 PM)gestir Wrote: [ -> ]But in the perspective that if a normal being dies, it will get re-born and if a ego dies, it will realize "Nirvana", what then will happen to a spirit that gets destroyed? And why is this undesireable?

The illusory perspective of the Creator that we are would be dispelled and so one would find itself back being the Creator once again without illusions. Your point of view would simply shift back to being the One Infinite Creator.

So the Creator looses the opportunity to fully explore the creation from the unique point of view that you are.

Makes sense! TY!