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The first thing in creation is infinity.

Infinity becomes aware. This is the next step....

Although the majority of the ancient wisdom perceives infinite consciousness as the Absolute, in my limited understanding, I can't help but see awareness as an emanation.

To me, at the highest level consciousness is intelligent energy. The kinetic aspect of the absolute. The "light" which emanates from the luminary.

The perfect unity or infinity itself I see as being beyond consciousness and completely undefinable. The only word I can even come up with to attempt to describe it other than infinity or unity is Spirit. I suppose you might call it consciousness without awareness...but I wouldn't quite call that consciousness.

How do others see this? Is consciousness the absolute?
I've always had this thrilling idea that while maybe Consciousness/Awareness is the highest we can conceive of, ultimately it is only a mere subset of the All. Meaning that when you reach Awareness's highest point, you reach a place where there are infinite types of things that are just as unique and just as infinitely explorable as Awareness itself. As in, Awareness itself is simply another facet of the infinite jewel of existence.
(05-18-2017, 10:30 PM)sjel Wrote: [ -> ]I've always had this thrilling idea that while maybe Consciousness/Awareness is the highest we can conceive of, ultimately it is only a mere subset of the All. Meaning that when you reach Awareness's highest point, you reach a place where there are infinite types of things that are just as unique and just as infinitely explorable as Awareness itself. As in, Awareness itself is simply another facet of the infinite jewel of existence.

I somewhat see it this way as well. But I do think consciousness is one of the two "aspects" of the Absolute. The kinetic aspect. I see the potential aspect somehow mysteriously "overflowing" and giving birth to the kinetic phase....but I do see the two as inseparable. When the kinetic merges with the potential, there is no potential/kinetic distinction, but only perfect unity...which I can't quite say is simply pure consciousness, or even pure being for that matter...

The unity seems to be an inherent paradox and an essential mystery.
(05-18-2017, 10:18 PM)Henosis Wrote: [ -> ]The first thing in creation is infinity.

Infinity becomes aware. This is the next step....

Although the majority of the ancient wisdom perceives infinite consciousness as the Absolute, in my limited understanding, I can't help but see awareness as an emanation.

To me, at the highest level consciousness is intelligent energy. The kinetic aspect of the absolute. The "light" which emanates from the luminary.

The perfect unity or infinity itself I see as being beyond consciousness and completely undefinable. The only word I can even come up with to attempt to describe it other than infinity or unity is Spirit. I suppose you might call it consciousness without awareness...but I wouldn't quite call that consciousness.

How do others see this? Is consciousness the absolute?

I'm personally of the opinion that awareness is the most pure form of energy possible.

In the absolute, there are no "objects" for the "subject" to be aware of, however. There is no contrast to set anything apart from anything else. So I hesitate to call it "consciousness" which is more like what we would call "mind". Mind is "subject", and matter is "object" and consciousness typically connotes a relationship between the two. In order to be "conscious" there has to be something to be "conscious of". I don't ordinarily split hairs like this (though this is common when you get into discussions with people that are well versed in eastern spiritual literature -- they seem to have a plethora of different words for different kinds of consciousness), but it is sort of necessary when having a in depth discussion regarding the "absolute".

So the awareness of the absolute is probably beyond anything we, in the realm of duality, can possibly conceive of with our mortal ken, but I believe it is somewhat reasonably described as an "awareness of awareness itself" (pure BEING). Though, the nuances of language necessarily makes that sound almost like a kind of duality, but I must stress it emphatically is not such, so language is something of a poor conveyor of truth in this department. Perhaps I can explain this lack of duality in some other terms:

We might ponder the question "what exactly is vibration anyhow?" All things in this world are vibrations of energy. But the question is: what is vibrating? And in what dimension does it vibrate in? And what is energy?  

In the absolute, there is no vibration. It is totally without distortion of any kind. A vibration is a reverberating pattern in consciousness. I would also describe it as the undulating sine wave of oscillation between the "subject" (self) and the "object" (that which has become seen as "not self"). As one "raises their vibration" the oscillation becomes faster and the distance between the two becomes shorter, until finally, in the octave density, when one becomes ONE with the rhythms of Being itself, the distance is breached completely, and thus, there is no longer a vibration to speak of. No longer is there a difference between mind and matter, between subject and object.

Mind, body, and spirit are all distortions of this Beingness we call the Absolute. So they all exist in latent form within that non dual singularity. The first distortion "free will" results from this nondual beingness CHOOSING to THINK. It *discerned* a concept by CHOICE. It chose to explore the distortion known as "mind". But here's the thing: if you explore an "in here" (which is precisely what mind is: "the inner world"), you reflexively, and automatically, generate and imply an "out there" to contain the "in there", and thus, the first duality is born and the Logos moves upon the face of the deep. The first three distortions are simultaneous according to Ra, and are essentially the mind, body, and spirit of the Logos unfolding out of the nondual bliss that existed in a timeless state (this is also articulated by the first 3 sephira on the tree of life).

The awareness of the absolute is without a sense of Self. The sense of self awareness is the 2nd distortion, the Logos. When Ra says "infinity became aware", I think they were referring to infinity becoming aware of the possibility of finity. Ra said the 1st distortion was free will, so this also means that is synonymous with what Ra is calling: "infinity becoming aware". It was an awareness of something "other than" infinity. This exploration of thought, this exploration of something other than infinite truth, allowed the primal and archetypal mind/body/spirit to unfold out of their latent and unified state, and manifest as our glorious creator, and the myriad of illusions that seemingly make up our interesting universe.

In regards to the kinetic and the potential, however, Ra has stated that there is no potential or kinetic in unpotentiated intelligent infinity. It is beyond such concepts. It is only in the realm of duality, the realm of contrast, that there appears a potential in relation to the kinetic. In the Absolute, active and passive come to mean the same "thing".
Ra said that in higher densities very little work is done in consciousness. So I don't think that's the Absolute.
(05-19-2017, 03:21 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: [ -> ]Ra said that in higher densities very little work is done in consciousness. So I don't think that's the Absolute.

They mean little work compared to 3rd density. They are intensifying rather than potentiating. So as Ra says, "The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities."

However, I would also point to the fact that if the first distortion is free will -- that means there was awareness in the state before because how can you "make a choice" you are not aware of?

If you were not aware, then that precludes choice. It wouldn't be a choice in such a case, it would just be a random movement. So to me, that logically points to the fact that there would have had to be awareness if the first distortion which has simultaneously been called by Ra, "free will" and also "infinity becoming aware (of what?)". If "infinity became aware" was the 1st distortion and free will was the 2nd distortion, it might work but Ra has not stated that free will and aware were separate distortions. This leads me to conclude they are the same distortion, thus infinity became aware of choice. In otherwords, it was already aware, just not aware of finity.

Unless there is more convincing logic someone can offer me, I think that awareness is required for choice, else it is not choice to my way of thinking.
So consciousness and awareness are the same thing? I figured that consciousness actually made things, whereas awareness was even more fundamental.

Wow, it makes me wonder how intense fourth density really is.
Hmmmm. I never considered "infinity becoming aware" to be a choice or the initial "free will" distortion. More like a consequence of the existence of infinity....Or possibly awareness being the result not quite of choice, but somewhat like an inner mechanism or innate will or tendency of infinity to radiate, but I won't venture to say this this act is completely "random"... It's just merely beyond understanding.

I usually consider free will to be the next step where awareness chooses to focus and creates the Logos.

I'll have to think about this!
(05-19-2017, 07:59 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: [ -> ]So consciousness and awareness are the same thing? I figured that consciousness actually made things, whereas awareness was even more fundamental.

Many people use them interchangeably. But nuances can be made as has been mentioned in this thread.

Gotcha. We're on the same page then. Consciousness *IS* the part that creates. You are correct sir.

(05-19-2017, 07:59 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, it makes me wonder how intense fourth density really is.

[Image: double_rainbow_so_intense_postcard-r7782...vr_324.jpg]
I think:
Absolute, as infinity.
Any kind of emanating would begin with free will, with the random pattern taking form, being explored, with the focus of love over light.
Quote:27.7 Questioner: Now I think I have extracted an important point from this in that in intelligent infinity we have work without polarity, or a potential difference does not have to exist. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. There is no difference, potential or kinetic, in unity. The basic rhythms of intelligent infinity are totally without distortion of any kind. The rhythms are clothed in mystery, for they are being itself. From this undistorted unity, however, appears a potential in relation to intelligent energy.

In this way you may observe the term to be somewhat two-sided, one use of the term, that being as the undistorted unity, being without any kinetic or potential side. The other application of this term, which we use undifferentiatedly for lack of other term in the sense of the vast potential tapped into by foci or focuses of energy, we call intelligent energy.

27.8 Questioner: Now, I understand that the first distortion of intelligent infinity is the distortion of what we call free will. Can you give me a definition of this distortion?

Ra: I am Ra. In this distortion of the Law of One it is recognized that the Creator will know Itself.

27.9 Questioner: Then am I correct then in assuming that the Creator will know Itself the Creator, then grants for this knowing the concept of freedom— total freedom of choice in the ways of knowing? Am I correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is quite correct.

27.10 Questioner: This then being the first distortion of the Law of One, which I [am] assuming is the Law of Intelligent Infinity, from all other— correction, all other distortions which are the total experience of the creation spring from this. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is both correct and incorrect. In your illusion all experience springs from the Law of Free Will or the Way of Confusion. In another sense, which we are learning, the experiences are this distortion.

The bolded part seems to get to the crux of Ra's use of the words. The idea of one phrase having multiple meanings is perhaps enlightening to consider here. If the "One Thought" is "One Word" and "One Phrase" then all of creation is the multiple meanings to be found in the One Thing. The knowing of self through an exploration of the tool of freedom is the emergent aspect of the One Thought. Properly though, they suggest there is an 'undistorted unity' as Anagogy pointed towards which is utterly mysterious and without any discernible statement to be said about it.

The most fundamental paradox I think the occultist comes across in the exploration of knowing oneself is this apparent duality of Perfection/Imperfection which seems impossible to have the two co-existent.

Quote:13.12 Questioner: Could you tell me how intelligent infinity became, shall we say (I’m having difficulty with some of the language), how intelligent infinity became individualized from itself?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an appropriate question.

The intelligent infinity discerned a concept. This concept was discerned due to freedom of will of awareness. This concept was finity. This was the first and primal paradox or distortion of the Law of One. Thus the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness. Due to the infinite possibilities of intelligent infinity there is no ending to many-ness. The exploration, thus, is free to continue infinitely in an eternal present.

It suggests here that Intelligent Infinity has the freedom of will of awareness 'before' it discerned the concept of finity which they say was the first distortion. This is where Ra gets sort of paradoxical because they both talk about II having freedom of will of awareness before discerning the concept of finity which is Free Will since they say that is the first distortion. So either 'freedom of will of awareness' is not considered a distortion by Ra or the 'Law of One' is referring to the whole of the Creator and not just the undistorted unity.
In sanskrit there is a term "sat-chit-ananda" (pure existence-consciousness-bliss). I see this as absolute emanation.
(05-20-2017, 12:01 AM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:13.12 Questioner: Could you tell me how intelligent infinity became, shall we say (I’m having difficulty with some of the language), how intelligent infinity became individualized from itself?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an appropriate question.

The intelligent infinity discerned a concept. This concept was discerned due to freedom of will of awareness. This concept was finity. This was the first and primal paradox or distortion of the Law of One. Thus the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness. Due to the infinite possibilities of intelligent infinity there is no ending to many-ness. The exploration, thus, is free to continue infinitely in an eternal present.

It suggests here that Intelligent Infinity has the freedom of will of awareness 'before' it discerned the concept of finity which they say was the first distortion. This is where Ra gets sort of paradoxical because they both talk about II having freedom of will of awareness before discerning the concept of finity which is Free Will since they say that is the first distortion. So either 'freedom of will of awareness' is not considered a distortion by Ra or the 'Law of One' is referring to the whole of the Creator and not just the undistorted unity.

That is an excellent point.

My view of this is that the option, or distortion, was peripherally "visible" on the fringes of the awareness of infinity prior to "fully" exploring it. Sort of like a hill you can see in the distance. But you are not fully "in", or over, the distortion until you deliberately go over that hill and into the valley beyond. Thus, the first distortion was there on the fringes of nirvana, and at some point the intelligent infinity chose to go over that hill and see what was beyond it which was the first distortion: the action/choice of moving over the threshold by choosing to explore the illusion of limits (finity).

And then when it was over the hill it had to take stock of what finity "meant", and had to reference itself as an object, forming into the self aware Logos, the second distortion.

(05-23-2017, 08:37 AM)loostudent Wrote: [ -> ]In sanskrit there is a term "sat-chit-ananda" (pure existence-consciousness-bliss). I see this as absolute emanation.

I do as well. That's a good way of describing it.
(05-24-2017, 10:59 AM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-20-2017, 12:01 AM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:13.12 Questioner: Could you tell me how intelligent infinity became, shall we say (I’m having difficulty with some of the language), how intelligent infinity became individualized from itself?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an appropriate question.

The intelligent infinity discerned a concept. This concept was discerned due to freedom of will of awareness. This concept was finity. This was the first and primal paradox or distortion of the Law of One. Thus the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness. Due to the infinite possibilities of intelligent infinity there is no ending to many-ness. The exploration, thus, is free to continue infinitely in an eternal present.

It suggests here that Intelligent Infinity has the freedom of will of awareness 'before' it discerned the concept of finity which they say was the first distortion. This is where Ra gets sort of paradoxical because they both talk about II having freedom of will of awareness before discerning the concept of finity which is Free Will since they say that is the first distortion. So either 'freedom of will of awareness' is not considered a distortion by Ra or the 'Law of One' is referring to the whole of the Creator and not just the undistorted unity.

That is an excellent point.

My view of this is that the option, or distortion, was peripherally "visible" on the fringes of the awareness of infinity prior to "fully" exploring it. Sort of like a hill you can see in the distance. But you are not fully "in", or over, the distortion until you deliberately go over that hill and into the valley beyond. Thus, the first distortion was there on the fringes of nirvana, and at some point the intelligent infinity chose to go over that hill and see what was beyond it which was the first distortion: the action/choice of moving over the threshold by choosing to explore the illusion of limits (finity).

And then when it was over the hill it had to take stock of what finity "meant", and had to reference itself as an object, forming into the self aware Logos, the second distortion.



(05-23-2017, 08:37 AM)loostudent Wrote: [ -> ]In sanskrit there is a term "sat-chit-ananda" (pure existence-consciousness-bliss). I see this as absolute emanation.

I do as well. That's a good way of describing it.

I would propose that within Infinity there is a sort of self-defeating/creating paradox whereby it would have as its only 'limitation' the fact that it is infinite. Infinity with its 'freedom of will of awareness' discerned finity within itself due to the fact that upon becoming aware of itself it 'split' due to becoming aware of its limitation. The first act of experience, I think, is actually an act of limitation with every subsequent emanation being a fractalization of this fundamental 'split'. Ra says that this step of 'self-exploration' is still taking place and will continue indefinitely within an eternal present, yet they talk about the mysterious coalescing of the Creator at the 'end of the Octave'.

The 'beginning' of the octave and the 'end' of the octave appear to be the exact same state of unity and being outside of time there is no 'beginning' or 'end'.

So here we have the fundamental concept of an undistorted unity which perceives in itself limitation which produces the first distortion of that unity, which is free will. The first duality is a binary fluctuation that is pure energy, pure flux.

Quote:13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the earliest, first known thing in the creation?
Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.


13.6 Questioner: From this infinity then must have come what we experience as creation. What was the next step or the next evolvement?

Ra: I am Ra. Infinity became aware. This was the next step.

13.7 Questioner: After this, what happened?

Ra: Awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. You have called this by various vibrational sound complexes, the most common to your ears being “Logos” or “Love.” The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle called by us as closely as we can create understanding/learning in your language, intelligent infinity.

Now what Ra has never discussed or what was never asked is the connection between awareness and focus. They say Infinity "became aware", and naturally the only thing for it to become aware of is itself. Of course, we don't know why Infinity 'became aware' when it otherwise 'wasn't' (I think this is one of the areas where words break down) but in becoming aware of itself it focused upon every part of itself simultaneously, thus projecting itself through its focus.

Quote:13.8 Questioner: Can you state the next step?

Ra: The next step is still at this space/time nexus in your illusion achieving its progression as you may see it in your illusion. The next step is an infinite reaction to the creative principle following the Law of One in one of its primal distortions, freedom of will. Thus many, many dimensions, infinite in number, are possible. The energy moves from the intelligent infinity due first to the outpouring of randomized creative force, this then creating patterns which in holographic style appear as the entire creation no matter which direction or energy is explored. These patterns of energy begin then to regularize their own local, shall we say, rhythms and fields of energy, thus creating dimensions and universes.

Ra suggests here that it was actually 'randomized creative energy' which was first produced. Thus, intelligent energy is fundamentally disorganized when it first 'moves from' Intelligent Infinity. What we have to see is that each stage of Creation is a further organization of this randomized creative energy. What starts first as random movement starts to develop patterns and slowly formulate in to other structures. If it's any wonder why it has already taken billions of years to get to this point.

So I think it's important to characterized the exploration of the Creator as impassioned and vigorous. It isn't selectively choosing bits of itself to explore, it's going full-on through every single part of itself. It seems that the Creator in becoming aware of itself produced this chaotic energy which then began to form patterns. Now, my assumption is that it began to form patterns according to the 'information' inherent within Infinity itself and that is what we called the Focus. The Focus is actually the way the energy revolves around concepts within Intelligent Infinity. There are certain 'bigger' ideas that we called the first Three Distortions which were foundation to all of the other distortions and these being the foundation for space and time itself.

Thus we have Infinity becoming aware of itself and so producing intelligent energy which is still chaotic and randomized. As the Creator responds and reacts to its own energy which it produces the energy evolves in to more and more complex patterns. These patterns revolved around the elements contained within Infinity which become the endless focal points of Infinity's awareness.

So, infinity became aware of finity and in its awareness focused on every finite thing starting with the 'broadest' elements. You see, to become aware of finity you actually don't need a huge division in to manyness, you just need one split. I think the first awareness of finity was actually a very simple distortion, like the way cells divide. I think then every subsequent distortion is a further splitting of this fundamental duality.

Coming back around to the topic then we can relate consciousness to infinity 'becoming aware of itself'. In this way, I think the question of the OP actually kind of just makes no sense. I would say it is ultimately both and neither. Consciousness is often talked about as a 'thing in itself', but I see it as just the relationship betwixt Infinity and Finity. I would rather venture to say that Consciousness is the Absolute Emanating the Absolute. So it isn't really one or the other, but you can't really call it 'both' without a paradox.

Quote:13.9 Questioner: Then can you tell me how [the] galaxy and this planetary system were formed?

Ra: I am Ra. You must imagine a great leap of thought in this query, for at the last query the physical, as you call, it, universes were not yet born.

The energies moved in increasingly intelligent patterns until the individualization of various energies emanating from the creative principle of intelligent infinity became such as to be co-Creators. Thus the so-called physical matter began. The concept of light is instrumental in grasping this great leap of thought as this vibrational distortion of infinity is the building block of that which is known as matter, the light being intelligent and full of energy, thus being the first distortion of intelligent infinity which was called by the creative principle.

This light of love was made to have in its occurrences of being certain characteristics, among them the infinite whole paradoxically described by the straight line, as you would call it. This paradox is responsible for the shape of the various physical illusion entities you call solar systems, galaxies, and planets, all revolving and tending towards the lenticular.

Infinity has a 'direction' it would seem.
Yes, I believe consciousness is the absolute or primary reality, although I am sure there is much that is beyond my human mind/awareness/perception.  Consciousness is the highest reality I can begin to conceptualize.  My goal is to experience consciousness without so much 3rd density mental structure on it.
(05-24-2017, 03:37 PM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]Thus we have Infinity becoming aware of itself and so producing intelligent energy which is still chaotic and randomized. As the Creator responds and reacts to its own energy which it produces the energy evolves in to more and more complex patterns. These patterns revolved around the elements contained within Infinity which become the endless focal points of Infinity's awareness.

So, infinity became aware of finity and in its awareness focused on every finite thing starting with the 'broadest' elements. You see, to become aware of finity you actually don't need a huge division in to manyness, you just need one split. I think the first awareness of finity was actually a very simple distortion, like the way cells divide. I think then every subsequent distortion is a further splitting of this fundamental duality.

Coming back around to the topic then we can relate consciousness to infinity 'becoming aware of itself'. In this way, I think the question of the OP actually kind of just makes no sense. I would say it is ultimately both and neither. Consciousness is often talked about as a 'thing in itself', but I see it as just the relationship betwixt Infinity and Finity. I would rather venture to say that Consciousness is the Absolute Emanating the Absolute. So it isn't really one or the other, but you can't really call it 'both' without a paradox.

My perspective is simply that I cannot imagine the absolute as not being aware of something. I mean, the ultimate state of being not able to even register the reality? That never sat right with me. Might as well not exist if that is the case.

I think Beingness, or the absolute, is simply awareness of awareness and so profound in its awareness of infinity that no words could possibly do it justice. It is basically every quality in the universe synthesized to an infinitely perfect degree.

I think we could also consider that the ways of the octave redound to the smallest aspect of reality, thus, we can get a glimpse of the symbolic nature of the octave by observing our own rhythms and cycles. It is commonly believed by most people that sleep is a state of unconsciousness. I can tell you, in my experience, it is not. We are conscious during sleep, we just don't usually retain memories of it (I've had a few experiences where I was able to bridge my conscious memories with a dreamless sleep state and learned this for myself). This could be analogous to the octave -- drifting into a pleasurable state of perfect bliss without a sense of self, just a sense of Being. I could be wrong, but it could explain the language Ra used, as most people believe when they get up from sleep that they have just become aware (they have merely become self aware). But then, absence of memory, is not proof of absence. So it is understandable that such language would be used.

Now obviously, our simple 3rd density sleep is not going to be comparable to the majesty of the octave, but it could be symbolically reflective of its archetypal nature. It is the place where chaos (red ray) and order (violet ray) somehow come to mean the same "essence".

One thing that perplexes me is the octave becomes the 1st density of the next octave, but in Ra's cosmology it is clear that things are created from the top down (greater to lesser). Even on the Tree of Life, the lightening path of creation goes from the top down. So I am at a loss to reconcile this paradox. I have a few theories, but they are still in the 75% cooked stage.  
(05-25-2017, 09:44 AM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]Now obviously, our simple 3rd density sleep is not going to be comparable to the majesty of the octave, but it could be symbolically reflective of its archetypal nature. It is the place where chaos (red ray) and order (violet ray) somehow come to mean the same "essence".

One thing that perplexes me is the octave becomes the 1st density of the next octave, but in Ra's cosmology it is clear that things are created from the top down (greater to lesser). Even on the Tree of Life, the lightening path of creation goes from the top down. So I am at a loss to reconcile this paradox. I have a few theories, but they are still in the 75% cooked stage.  

I found that pretty humorous somehow, I'm pretty sure you already know the answer. And even within your post it feels like you question your own answer to the question you attempt to answer first.

Red ray ascend, violet ray descend. There is no real top or bottom I believe, only the middle of somewhere relative to these concepts at the moment they are observered. Just like your avatar. That's why they appear as a paradox but actually it is not a paradox. It is simply that the process of creation is a 2 way process. Creation and destruction work hand in hand. The light and the dark, the yin and the yang. As long as we are not into the source level, we experience duality, and so everything is dual, every concept, idea, thought, it's all dual. Every answer to every question is then some kind of yes/no it depends on the perspective. We experience a meeting of two states, a reflection. The path that this idea has taken to get into this thread is dual all along. It needs to pass by identity, mind/body complex, language which is based on communication between 2 indivi''duals'', then thinker, writer, reader, all are dual concepts that involves a reflection process.

The word conscious, from what I have read comes from the latin root ''con scio''. I found that on a website somewhere I cannot find back sadly. When I try to search it now I find there are multiple different roots to the word depending if you search conscious conscience consciousness and according to different websites. But basically con scio means ''with seperation''. It makes sense to me that as soon as there is a thought it is some kind of abstraction of this idea from the source and so everything that we experience as awareness is the duality of the thought. Is it absolute? I would say the absolute is probably the source and this is not what we experience. We come from it, but essentilly we are cut off from it, that's why so many things appear as paradoxes, we can't reconcile our seperation. So I believe consciousness is duality. From there, there is a consistant bidirectional flow of seperation and integreation that is essentially one process. The question is, if the source contains everything and is in a fixed state, is it aware or is awareness also the byproduct of consciousness. In a way, we could relate that to the human brain, being that the conscious mind is active but has little to no actual content, and the unconscious contains everything, but it's never really into the present, acting and driving, it's always like a background process, like memory. If the source is like the unconscious, then it is still some kind of awareness, just like barely awareness, probably awareness like someone on alzheimer that's so much into the present state that nothing else is really taken into account. And consciousness would be like the completely aware drive to remerge within itself. That would make sense under the idea that macro and micro are a reflection of one another. But then there is the possibility that this is not the case in which case we have very limited ways to even ponder about the question.
(05-25-2017, 04:03 PM)Night Owl Wrote: [ -> ]I found that pretty humorous somehow, I'm pretty sure you already know the answer. And even within your post it feels like you question your own answer to the question you attempt to answer first.

Red ray ascend, violet ray descend. There is no real top or bottom I believe, only the middle of somewhere relative to these concepts at the moment they are observered. Just like your avatar. That's why they appear as a paradox but actually it is not a paradox. It is simply that the process of creation is a 2 way process. Creation and destruction work hand in hand. The light and the dark, the yin and the yang. As long as we are not into the source level, we experience duality, and so everything is dual, every concept, idea, thought, it's all dual. Every answer to every question is then some kind of yes/no it depends on the perspective. We experience a meeting of two states, a reflection. The path that this idea has taken to get into this thread is dual all along. It needs to pass by identity, mind/body  complex, language which is based on communication between 2 indivi''duals'', then thinker, writer, reader, all are dual concepts that involves a reflection process.

Yes, you've got it. Time/space (violet ray pole) descends from the greater to the lesser, and space/time (red ray pole) ascends from the lessor to the greater. And of course, time is an illusion. The descending energies even come back into our own octave (hence the guardians -- though it is still somewhat baffling that they would need to come back to something that should be "done" from their time reference).

(05-25-2017, 04:03 PM)Night Owl Wrote: [ -> ]The word conscious, from what I have read comes from the latin root ''con scio''. I found that on a website somewhere I cannot find back sadly. When I try to search it now I find there are multiple different roots to the word depending if you search conscious conscience consciousness and according to different websites. But basically con scio means ''with seperation''. It makes sense to me that as soon as there is a thought it is some kind of abstraction of this idea from the source and so everything that we experience as awareness is the duality of the thought. Is it absolute? I would say the absolute is probably the source and this is not what we experience. We come from it, but essentilly we are cut off from it, that's why so many things appear as paradoxes, we can't reconcile our seperation. So I believe consciousness is duality. From there, there is a consistant bidirectional flow of seperation and integreation that is essentially one process. The question is, if the source contains everything and is in a fixed state, is it aware or is awareness also the byproduct of consciousness. In a way, we could relate that to the human brain, being that the conscious mind is active but has little to no actual content, and the unconscious contains everything, but it's never really into the present, acting and driving, it's always like a background process, like memory. If the source is like the unconscious, then it is still some kind of awareness, just like barely awareness, probably awareness like someone on alzheimer that's so much into the present state that nothing else is really taken into account. And consciousness would be like the completely aware drive to remerge within itself. That would make sense under the idea that macro and micro are a reflection of one another. But then there is the possibility that this is not the case in which case we have very limited ways to even ponder about the question.

Well, the thing about consciousness is it is all about *change* (we might also say "creativity"). Take a monotonous activity like peddling a bike for example -- when something becomes repetitive enough, eventually, consciousness is no longer required to maintain it. You don't even think about it, you just do it, on autopilot. At least, it is not the consciousness we are aware of.

Infinity is changeless.

So it is conceivable that it is infinitely conscious but can't truly recognize it or appreciate it, without the mutually sustaining dialect with relative reality. Ra has stated that the 3rd density choice is the axis upon which the creation turns. The contrast of the world of falsity, of illusion, allows intelligent infinity to appreciate and recognize its own perfection, which is why our imperfect world is not actually imperfect, it is also a part of perfection because without it, we could not truly appreciate the perfection of the absolute.

Contrast. It gets you every time.

But when I search my soul for answers, I still feel the absolute is AWARE that is IS. And that is the primal reality. A sort of nirvanic bliss. Total and utter undistorted unified infinity. But what calls Beingness away from that state is a sort of primal NEED to CREATE (also curiosity). That is the catalyst for the free will choice to explore the finite illusion.

I think this clip is applicable.


:

edit: had the wrong video link it was cut off but replaced it with the correct one that has the full scene.
(05-25-2017, 09:44 AM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]My perspective is simply that I cannot imagine the absolute as not being aware of something. I mean, the ultimate state of being not able to even register the reality? That never sat right with me. Might as well not exist if that is the case.

I think Beingness, or the absolute, is simply awareness of awareness and so profound in its awareness of infinity that no words could possibly do it justice. It is basically every quality in the universe synthesized to an infinitely perfect degree.

Lol. I completely understand where your coming from. How could the most powerful highest Source above all not even be conscious of Itself? I suppose this is why I mention the Absolute must have two aspects. A potential and a kinetic. In my opinion, at the point of unity the kinetic aspect of the Absolute becomes sort of absorbed into or nullified to the potential. It exists but in somewhat of a "dormant" state while the unity is at rest. To me, this abundance of potential with no kinetic activity is the Absolute Unity Itself. I don't quite see this as consciousness but more like pure Force/Strength/Power. Consciousness the way I use the term is the Awareness of this power.

I see the kinetic aspect or "consciousness" as being the first emanation which "rolls out" after the period of rest. Infinity becoming aware is the mysterious kinetic aspect of the Absolute in its preparatory stage before the Creative process commences. I don't see it really as a consequence of choice but a mere consequence of the existence of Infinity.

However, paradoxically and in a way difficult to explain I will say I don't think infinity and consciousness are separable. Even at the point of unity, I see the potential and the kinetic as somewhat co-eternal and surviving the cosmic dissolution between Logoi.

I think the primary issue is that I am primarily talking about the "essence". The way I use the term essence is the utter core of something that is not necessarily even aware of itself, it simply Is. However, an essence implies a nature.

I think its ESSENCE is mystery (being), its NATURE is cognizance (consciousness), its ENERGY is joy (bliss). The benevolent desire to share and radiate this Joy is Love. I believe this arising of desire is what leads to free will being potentiated.

Perhaps all of this conversation is futile. I don't think Being/Consciousness/Bliss can be separated into portions anyway. They are likely a unified ultimate reality.

I've said five different things in this post alone. I'm sure of none of them lol.
I feel like infinity precedes anything including the awareness of itself as infinity so i guess I bend towards the whole mystery of it   Wink
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I think its ESSENCE is mystery (being), its NATURE is cognizance (consciousness), its ENERGY is joy (bliss). The benevolent desire to share and radiate this Joy is Love. I believe this arising of desire is what leads to free will being potentiated.
[/quote]



I love that, Henosis !!
I think there is a native american saying that goes something like: we don't inherit our lands from our fathers, we borrow it from our childrens.

I think it sums up pretty well the bidrectional flow of time and consciousness. That what has yet to happen is already there, buried under the dust.
[/quote]

I love that, Henosis !!
[/quote]

I somewhat borrowed the general concept from Dzogchen.

The Ground of Dzogchen is described as being endowed with three qualities―essence, nature and compassionate energy. The third quality of the Ground is its compassionate energy (Tib. ཐུགས་རྗེ་, tukjé; Wyl. thugs rje).

While the essence of mind is empty, like the sky, its nature is cognizant and clear, like the light of the sun. But when we compare the nature of mind to the sky, it has something the sky does not have, that is its clarity and cognizance. We are aware, we can see, we can hear and we can feel. That is the cognizant nature.

Just as the sky and sunlight are indivisible, so the empty essence and cognizant nature are always a unity. This inseparability or unity is called ‘compassionate energy'.

This unceasing compassionate energy is described as:
unconfined,
unobstructed, and
all-pervasive.

It too possesses three wonderful qualities:
the wisdom that knows,
the compassion that is loving and caring, and
the power that is able to liberate, protect, and benefit beings and fulfil the enlightened activity
ah so lovely, Henosis

to be unconfined, unobstructed and all pervasive..

Wink in the words of buddha
'Practice lovingkindness to get rid of ill will, compassion to get rid of cruelty, appreciative joy to get rid of apathy, equanimity to get rid of resentment '
(05-25-2017, 09:44 AM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-24-2017, 03:37 PM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]Thus we have Infinity becoming aware of itself and so producing intelligent energy which is still chaotic and randomized. As the Creator responds and reacts to its own energy which it produces the energy evolves in to more and more complex patterns. These patterns revolved around the elements contained within Infinity which become the endless focal points of Infinity's awareness.

So, infinity became aware of finity and in its awareness focused on every finite thing starting with the 'broadest' elements. You see, to become aware of finity you actually don't need a huge division in to manyness, you just need one split. I think the first awareness of finity was actually a very simple distortion, like the way cells divide. I think then every subsequent distortion is a further splitting of this fundamental duality.

Coming back around to the topic then we can relate consciousness to infinity 'becoming aware of itself'. In this way, I think the question of the OP actually kind of just makes no sense. I would say it is ultimately both and neither. Consciousness is often talked about as a 'thing in itself', but I see it as just the relationship betwixt Infinity and Finity. I would rather venture to say that Consciousness is the Absolute Emanating the Absolute. So it isn't really one or the other, but you can't really call it 'both' without a paradox.

My perspective is simply that I cannot imagine the absolute as not being aware of something. I mean, the ultimate state of being not able to even register the reality? That never sat right with me. Might as well not exist if that is the case.

I think Beingness, or the absolute, is simply awareness of awareness and so profound in its awareness of infinity that no words could possibly do it justice. It is basically every quality in the universe synthesized to an infinitely perfect degree.

I think we could also consider that the ways of the octave redound to the smallest aspect of reality, thus, we can get a glimpse of the symbolic nature of the octave by observing our own rhythms and cycles. It is commonly believed by most people that sleep is a state of unconsciousness. I can tell you, in my experience, it is not. We are conscious during sleep, we just don't usually retain memories of it (I've had a few experiences where I was able to bridge my conscious memories with a dreamless sleep state and learned this for myself). This could be analogous to the octave -- drifting into a pleasurable state of perfect bliss without a sense of self, just a sense of Being. I could be wrong, but it could explain the language Ra used, as most people believe when they get up from sleep that they have just become aware (they have merely become self aware). But then, absence of memory, is not proof of absence. So it is understandable that such language would be used.

Now obviously, our simple 3rd density sleep is not going to be comparable to the majesty of the octave, but it could be symbolically reflective of its archetypal nature. It is the place where chaos (red ray) and order (violet ray) somehow come to mean the same "essence".

One thing that perplexes me is the octave becomes the 1st density of the next octave, but in Ra's cosmology it is clear that things are created from the top down (greater to lesser). Even on the Tree of Life, the lightening path of creation goes from the top down. So I am at a loss to reconcile this paradox. I have a few theories, but they are still in the 75% cooked stage.  

I absolutely agree and I would say that is the root of the paradox of true simultaneity in that there appears to be a manner in which the Intelligent Infinity is always whole. I think one of the obstacles is thinking of numbers as quantities and getting more in the mode of thinking in terms of qualities. Even though it is the 'first' density of the next octave, it is like adding a zero, so like making 1 in to 10. Musically an octave is double the frequency of the previous same note so viewed that way we can see it as a spiral.

The lightning flash is one of my favorite ideas and I will share my thoughts in case it might give you some inspiration. I think that is why the whole of creation appeared and has experienced itself all at once in 'completion' and why I think we are just exploring the 'after-image' of that lightning flash. That is because creation occured as the lightning flash striking down from Kether to Malkuth, but consider that the task of the Magician is to then travel back up the Tree towards Kether.

That is why they say we exist here on the lowest level. I think the Creator 'seeded' itself throughout all of creation as the will of awareness to discover itself and so the experience of the octave is the Creator getting to see the process of its own realization of self-awareness. At the 'end' of the octave, which is truly only existent for each co-creator as they become denser in consciousness and unite with themselves fully again, the co-creators which have been seeded throughout Creation blossom and I think that this octave is not actually 'before' or 'after' eachother like a straight line but rather are contained infinitely within eachother like Matryoksha dolls, so the crossing of the threshold of the octave is actually getting in to an even wider experience of universal creation where not just galaxies are managed and created but whole universes.

The 'learning' we are doing in this octave is how to create a universe. I should say 'remembering' because all learning is remembering.
I consistently imagine a "plane" where there are endless singularities or centers appearing as "dots", with each dot representing a universe. I usually visualize these endless universes emanating and precipitating from a Great Central Sun or Primordial Logos. I imagine the octave density to be something like this.
That is very similar to my own 'visual'.
(05-25-2017, 10:47 PM)Aion Wrote: [ -> ]That is very similar to my own 'visual'.

But then one attempts to transcend the Great Central Sun....is it a dot Itself? If so, is it the only dot or one among many dots? If there are many, then surely there must be a central dot? Then one asks is the source a dot, or more like the ocean containing the dot/dots? One become befuddled but ecstatic about being at the precipice of the Ultimate Realization. One then reaches the transcendent inner ocean. A great sea of potential. Its waves are pure consciousness.

I don't think one can transcend the ocean.
I think the problem is the attachment to the Point. The Point is the Logos for sure, but there is something at the heart of the point. We described a point as a dot on paper but in truth there is nothing there that is there. A 'central point' outside of space and time is inconceivable in geometric terms as we know them. What is there that the point is 'on'? What is the paper? Do space and time also have their place in the next octave, on a level of which we can scarcely imagine?

Maybe not transcend the ocean, but we can become the water and flow where it flows. I think that is the only way we might see where to and where from it flows. Something tells me we don't have to look 'far', but rather look 'deep'.
I am not sure how it relates exactly,  but Ra says this interesting thing in session 28,

" Unity, at this approximation of understanding, cannot be specified by any physics but only become activated or potentiated intelligent infinity due to the catalyst of free will. This may be difficult to accept. However, the understandings we have to share begin and end in mystery."
 
The idea of the ocean of unknown, unqualified ocean is an image which always helps me.. Wink
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